test-drb August 2006

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

216 participants
517 discussions

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

> What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have > more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than > with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. For me it really is more about the intellectual "value" in the design than about any experiential component. To be honest, I don't particularly like using computer to do things. I like making computers do things. As a result, I don't run any commercial software and very little of the other usual stuff most people run. So what does make a machine interesting to me? There are the architectures that I like, that make me feel an intellectual connection to the creators. These are ones that are clean or elegant or orthogonal, or whatever characteristic is particularly nice about it. These are the machines like the various models of the PDP-11. On the other hand there are those architectures that are far enough out of the ordinary that they're interesting mostly in just how different they are. The Intel 432 and the older AS/400s discussed recently fall into that catagory. In some cases it's the details of the design, like the aync PDP-10s and pretty much anything designed by Cray. Maybe it's interesting because of its historical influence like with the GE645 or the PDP-7. So the experience of using it is one of the least significant factors in it for me. Not to say it's negatively correlated. Some of my fondest memories are of low level stuff on PDP-11s, but most of the machines I'd love to add to my collection are ones I've never had any experience with at all. > Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine > language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? For me, the "modern hardware" in the sense of PCs are uninteresting because they fail all the tests for interestingness. The architecture is something only its mother could love. But it's not so far out in left field that it's interesting in its own right. While the Intel and AMD guys have done a bang-up job squeezing performance out of a turnip and I'm sure some of the chip level details are interesting, the design of the overall machines is singularly boring. Now some people might think there is some significant historical value in the PC per se, but I've got to say I see it just as another step on a road toward smaller and smaller devices that will eventually approach the ubiquitous computing model Xerox talked about a while back. I can't honestly say that I see much intellectually interesting about the fact that it put computers in the hands of the masses. Sure it lets more people do more with them and I can now keep in touch using e-mail with people I couldn't 20 years ago, but I don't find that an interesting subject of study. It's kind of like the web. When things first started happening, one could recognize it as basically as networked, graphical 3270. The only thing that really seemed different and original was the fact that now the recipient was responsible for the format of the information instead of the producer (by virtue of HTML being a markup language not a layout language). But then people came along and made everything a table whether it was tabular data or not. "I don't care how wide your browser window is; these have to be next to each other." Then came style sheets and we lost the one thing that was really interesting, the chance to see what would happen with the one major change to the printing press model. So now the web is just another mass medium driven by advertising. It became less interesting as it became more "useful" and "friendly." If you've been skimming to see what the punch line is, it's this. My question is always, "Is it interesting as an object of study?" not "Is it interesting as a tool to use?" As always, YMMV BLS

18 years, 3 months

My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Jim Beacon <jim at g1jbg.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console > > > launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and > USA) > > > and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser > > > which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the > > > Japanese browser). When altering it they > > > left some things in, so when I reply to emails > > > via the POP3 software they are all encoded > > > in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), > > > as Don pointed out. > > > > Heh heh, that's sufficiently bonkers that I thin k > I can live with it ;-) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > The only oddity here, is that opening the message > tries to load JAVA (I have > it for some other applets......). I guess most > people have JAVA disabled. > > Jim. > Yeah, I have been told something like that before. I guess it's triggered by having the email encoded in ISO-2022JP? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

18 years, 3 months

My large font (was Re: OT: Hotdog cooker links)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Don <THX1138 at dakotacom.net> wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > [snip] > > > ps. Any ideas why your emails to the list (and > nobody else's) appear in a > > larger font than normal? Not sure if it's just > affecting Thunderbird here or > > various other people's email clients too! > > ISO-2022JP character encoding > Sorry, I'll explain... I surf using my Sega Dreamcast (games console launched in 1998 in Japan, and 1999 for UK and USA) and I use the Dreamkey 3 (European) browser which is based on DreamPassport 3 (the Japanese browser). When altering it they left some things in, so when I reply to emails via the POP3 software they are all encoded in the Japanese character set (ISO-2022JP), as Don pointed out. Apologies if this bugs anyone, but I don't have a PC, my Amiga doesn't have a modem nor enough memory to surf the net (only has 2MB at the moment) and, whilst I can read, delete and move emails via my mobile phone, I can't reply to emails :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

18 years, 3 months

Amigaisms (was Re: Feelings about vintage systems)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > On 8/26/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > --- Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > --- Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > > > odd-boundary, the 68000 traps... (Guru > Meditation) > > > > > > Like a blue screen? > > > > > > > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black > > screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the > > top of the screen. > > Inside the rectangle is a message a long the > > lines of "A fatal software error has occured. > > Press mouse button to reset", followed by > > 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. > > I think what the OP meant was functionally like a > blue screen on an MS > OS, not visually identical to one Ahh, yes. I have never had the pleasure of seeing the blue screen on an MS OS, the computers at work generally freeze up completely. > > In any case, the entire screen may or may not be > black, depending on > the nature and severity of the cause - with some > errors, the entire > screen was slid down enough to make room for the > Guru Meditation box, > which had a blinking red border and red text insid e > (red it fatal, > yellow if not, but that was rare). There _could b e_ > a "Software > Failure" requester box with "press mouse button to > reset", but that > was _prior_ to a Guru Meditation screen, not the > Guru Meditation > itself. > > > The first one is the error code, typically > 80000001 or 80000003, > > Those are examples of 68000 trap error codes... > 80000003 in particular > happens to be the odd address trap that started > things off (it was > rather common, especially if your code went off in to > the weeds and > tried to execute an instruction on an odd-byte > boundary). > > There were also _lots_ of error codes that could > tell you specifics > about what really went wrong, but unless you had t he > Rom Kernel Manual > (RKM) handy or did a lot of development, people > ignored the numbers. > > > but I don't know what the 2nd number represents . > > Either "HELP" in ASCII (0x48454C50) or the address > of the process that > was running when the machine puked. It was only > useful if you were a > developer and used it to fire up ROMWack (an > internal debugger) to > sift through the remains of your process to see wh at > it was doing when > something went wrong. Mostly, though, the second > number wasn't > particularly helpful. "ROMWack is an internal debugger", do you mean it's stored internally (ROM) and can be accessed when things go wrong, or is it some external program that can be run to see whats wrong? That could be useful if I could use it as I have some games/software that sometimes causes it to Guru, even after pluggin in my 4MB RAM PCMCIA card to give my Amiga 600 a total of 6MB of memory. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

18 years, 3 months

Feelings about vintage systems

by cclist＠sydex.com

I've used a lot of different systems, but some stick in my mind as being particularly wonderful and others are but a dim memory. I've used DEC equipment (VAX 730 and 750), but never at an assembly or machine instruction level--there was simply no need. Unix is unix and everything's done in C at worst. So I don't remember much about the hardware and have no particular fondess or aversion to a system--it was just a box. If it broke, you called for field service; the peripherals were likely made by someone else, so even those weren't special. They were like my toaster--they did what they were purchased to do and when they didn't, there was someone who would fix them. Learn the right Unix invocation, know where to plug in the cables; after that, it's just a matter of putting the right software on it. On the other hand, there are many systems that I've programmed at the assembly level and have even developed hardware for that I remember quite well. Some of these were notably inferor to the DEC systems, but they occupy a fond spot in my mind. What I'm wondering is if one's feelings about "collectable" systems have more to do with the level of exposure to the internals of the hardware than with any intrinsic novelty of the hardware itself. Does this make sense? Since fewer folks are using assembly or machine language, does this account for the indifference to modern hardware? Cheers, Chuck

18 years, 3 months

Amigaisms (was Re: Feelings about vintage systems)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 8/26/06, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > --- Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > --- Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > > odd-boundary, the 68000 traps... (Guru Meditation) > > > > Like a blue screen? > > > > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black > screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the > top of the screen. > Inside the rectangle is a message a long the > lines of "A fatal software error has occured. > Press mouse button to reset", followed by > 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. I think what the OP meant was functionally like a blue screen on an MS OS, not visually identical to one, in this case, the answer is, "sorta-kinda-mostly", at least from the standpoint that it was the last thing you get to see before resetting the machine. In any case, the entire screen may or may not be black, depending on the nature and severity of the cause - with some errors, the entire screen was slid down enough to make room for the Guru Meditation box, which had a blinking red border and red text inside (red it fatal, yellow if not, but that was rare). There _could be_ a "Software Failure" requester box with "press mouse button to reset", but that was _prior_ to a Guru Meditation screen, not the Guru Meditation itself. > The first one is the error code, typically 80000001 or 80000003, Those are examples of 68000 trap error codes... 80000003 in particular happens to be the odd address trap that started things off (it was rather common, especially if your code went off into the weeds and tried to execute an instruction on an odd-byte boundary). There were also _lots_ of error codes that could tell you specifics about what really went wrong, but unless you had the Rom Kernel Manual (RKM) handy or did a lot of development, people ignored the numbers. > but I don't know what the 2nd number represents. Either "HELP" in ASCII (0x48454C50) or the address of the process that was running when the machine puked. It was only useful if you were a developer and used it to fire up ROMWack (an internal debugger) to sift through the remains of your process to see what it was doing when something went wrong. Mostly, though, the second number wasn't particularly helpful. > There is also a "recoverable error", which > gives you a Guru Meditation screen, but with > a message similar to "A non-fatal error has > occured. Press mouse button to continue". > However, apon pressing said mouse button you > can continue.... for about 5 seconds until > the same Guru screen pops up, so you end up > having to do a warm reset anyway! Yeah.... typically, if you got a recoverable error, something was likely to happen shortly thereafter that wasn't recoverable. -ethan

18 years, 3 months

need freight & crate in Cincinnati -- recommendations

by brian＠quarterbyte.com

Hi, I need to get a freight/crater to pick up a cabinet in Cincinnati OH, palletize and wrap it so that I can have it picked up for shipping. Can anyone recommend a company there? Could you email me off list? Thanks! Brian (this is OT: it's vintage computing stuff!)

18 years, 3 months

Feelings about vintage systems

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

--- Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > --- Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > If you attempt a read larger than 8-bits on an > > odd-boundary, the 68000 > > traps. Not the same as a halt - you are free to > > install a trap > > handler, but in practice, machines like the Amig a > > just went through an > > error dump (Guru Meditation) when low-value CPU > > traps triggered. > > Like a blue screen? > No, a Guru Meditation has a completely black screen with a rectangle in white/grey at the top of the screen. Inside the rectangle is a message a long the lines of "A fatal software error has occured. Press mouse button to reset", followed by 2 8 digit (hexidecimal?) numbers. The first one is the error code, typically 80000001 or 80000003, but I don't know what the 2nd number represents. If you get a coloured screen on boot-up (eg. grey, dark grey, blue etc.) then the Amiga has halted the self test due to a hardware failure of some sort. You would also see the Caps Lock LED blink a few times aswell. The colour shown when it freezes along with the Caps Lock LED flashing is used to work out what the problem is. I can post up more details if you are interested? There is also a "recoverable error", which gives you a Guru Meditation screen, but with a message similar to "A non-fatal error has occured. Press mouse button to continue". However, apon pressing said mouse button you can continue.... for about 5 seconds until the same Guru screen pops up, so you end up having to do a warm reset anyway! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

18 years, 3 months

hp 10391b inverse assembler/HP 1660A needed operating system files

by Gergana.Buchvarova＠jci.com

Hi Glen, I read in ClassicCmp forum that you have operating system files for HP1660A, but I couldn't find them in forum. Is it possible to send me operating system files for HP1660A? (Or to send me link which to use for thise files download) I have to use logic analyser but there is a problem with it , which requires device to be flashed. Thank you in advance! Best Regards Gergana Buchvarova Engineer SW Validation Johnson Controls Electronics Bulgaria EOOD 14 Todor Aleksandrov Blvd. BG-1303 Sofia Phone: + 359 2 9306418 Fax: + 359 2 9306462

18 years, 3 months

10BASE-T Ethernet Transceiver

by ploopster＠gmail.com

Does anyone within a reasonable driving distance of Poughkeepsie, NY have any Allied-Telesyn mini-transceivers they don't need? I can throw a few bucks into the deal to make it worth your while. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar

18 years, 3 months

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test-drb August 2006