test-drb October 2005

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

264 participants
655 discussions

Classic hardware tours and KIM-1 repair advice

by pete＠dunnington.plus.com

On Oct 7 2005, 12:51, Hans Franke wrote: > Am 7 Oct 2005 0:09 meinte Pete Turnbull: > > > As some of you know, I'm helping with an exhibition of classic > > machines in the Department of Computer Science -- for Open Day > > tomorrow (Friday), and running conducted tours on Wednesday as well. [ ... ] > > Well, one of the supposedly-working exhibits is my KIM-1, but it > > died this afternoon. > That's unusual, standard procedure is that a machine dies at > the opening day at the first real presentation - no matter > how often you testet before. :-) Well, I *was* demoing it to the organisers and senior staff... Final death toll was one KIM-1, the top 1K of my Commodore PET (one of the early ones with the nasty MOS Technology 6550 RAMs) and a Mac Plus which got rather unhappy midmorning. Probably all fixable in one way or another. "Thank you" to the various people who replied about the KIM. I never had time to look at it again this week, perhaps I'll have a go at the weekend. I did actually know about the site that several of you mentioned, and I also have the schematic and most manuals, just not handy at the time, so I was really just wondering if there was a common failure mode. The suggestion of using small components on the back, out of sight, is an interesting one, though, and the suggestions made about other methods may be helpful too. In other respects the tours for the students were a great success -- and the staff loved them. Some went and fetched their colleagues and came back with them! We had a display of generations of computing from a 1920s mechanical card tabulator through bits of ENIAC (valve), Pegasus (valve), LEO (transistor, well the last version was anyway), and various TTL-based boards (some SSI, some with 74181 MSI ALUs, etc) to LSI/VLSI ending up with an 8008 board (we don't seem to have a 4004 between us, surprisingly -- if anyone would like to donate one for next time, feel free ;-)). We had a display of three generations (densities) of core memory, static and dynamic RAM chips and SIMMS/DIMMS/etc, several generations of EPROMS (oh, and a diode ROM board) and a few chips to see under a fairly powerful binocular microscope. We had a whole range of drives and discs, from RK05 to modern SCSI,including some hard drives running with perspex covers, and all sorts of floppies, stiffies, flopticals and zips, and tapes from paper tape (one of the quiz questions was how much paper tape would it take to store the same data as you'd fit on a 3.5" floppy?) through 1/2" magtape and C10 cassettes to TK50s, DLT-IVs and 200GB LTO Ultrium-IIs. The microcomputer section included an Altair 8800B, some S100 cards, Motorola MK6800D2, KIM-1, Scrumpi (an SC/MP kit), PET (running moonlander), Apple ][ (displaying a rolling demo of digitised pics), a BBC micro running games and with no less than 4 second processors, an untidy heap[1] of "lots of micros from the late 70s and early 80s", an Apple Mac (supposedly running Pagemaker 1.0 but that was the Mac that got ill) with a modified "1984" promo video[2] at the side, an original pristine 5160 PC/XT, an Amiga, and an Acorn Archimedes. [1] the "untidy heap" was to convey the idea of the explosion of micros that appeared around this time, and included -- some with the tops off -- Exidy Sorcerer, Acorn Atom, TRS-80, Sharp MZ80K, Sinclair ZX80, TI99/4, Sinclair ZX81, Jupiter Ace, Sinclair Spectrum, Dragon 32, Vic-20, Acorn Electron, Sinclair Spectrum Plus, Commodore 64, Commodore 128, Sinclair QL, Sony MSX and probably a couple I've forgotten. Altogether, we counted 16 different microprocessors in the display (another pop quiz question the students were supposed to answer). [2] the video is the 2004 version where the runner is wearing an iPod. We wondered (another quiz question: what was the anachronism) how many students would not notice the iPod because they're so common now, but most of them spotted it. What most didn't get without prompting was the question about how that related to the displays on either side -- which were an Acorn ARM Development system and an Archimedes (with an ARM processor). We also asked them what the most common microprocessor is, and a small number thought it was a Pentium (which doesn't even make the top three, actually). The "business and scientific" section covered a longer period, starting with a PDP-8/E (pop quiz: which machine has been through a dishwasher?) with attached ASR33 and which was running the inchworm and basic accumulator test programs, as well as a little routine to punch "HELLO, WORLD!" souveniers on tape (written by one of the staff who'd never seen PDP-8 code before, so he was dead pleased when it worked). Then we had an 11/40 opened up to the gaze of the onlookers (plus the "Ken and Den" photo at the side) and boards from an 11/03, 11/23, and 11/73, followed by a microVAX-II (no room for an 11/780, alas). The final item in that row was a 20-year-old working 11/53 system running an exam marking system under RSX-11M, with a mark-sense reader -- which booted first time and ran without problem all week, demonstrating -- as we hoped and expected -- that things were built to be reliable in those days. The other side of that aisle was mostly RISC-based machines, starting with an early Sparcstation, then the first microSPARC, a Mac Classic (last 68K Mac, first under 1000UKP), then Indigo, Indy and O2 SGI workstations (what machine do you see in Jurassic Park?) running assorted demos and finally a modern mid-range dual-processor Sun server. Note the complete absence of Wintel PCs (apart from the 5160) :-) We managed to relegate them to a corner table of their own, but we did have a full range of motherboards from XT (couldn't find a 5150 in time), through AT, 386, 486, assorted Pentium and AMDs to a big dual-core machine that will finally be put into service on Friday. The last section was sort of unusual odds and ends -- a piece of one of the Crays the Meteorological Office used to use for forecasting, some transputer boards from a Meganode and a Paramid system, a Presence-II neural net processor board (a PCI card designed and built by the Advanced Computer Architectures group at the University), one module >from my Origin 2000 "supercomputer" with some superfluous Craylinks to make more lights flash, an Origin 200, and some FPGA stuff from CompSci. We also had some pieces of Elliot 803 and English Electric KDF9 along with someone who had actually worked on these systems, and could talk enthusiastically about the novel and innovative aspects of their architectures, but sadly he got called away mid-morning. We all had an interesting and enjoyable day, though some of us are a bit hoarse from running sixteen tour groups through our parts of the exhibition! One of the technicians took lots of photos so I'll see if I can pick some out when I get a set and put them up online somewhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

18 years, 9 months

Old (1980s) Computer Giveaway, UK, North West

by chris.shallcross＠gmail.com

Hello, This seems to be the better of the two lists to put this, so here goes. Recently we've had a bit of a clearout at the company where I work. As it's a SW house from the early 80s we've unearthed all sorts of kit in the cellars. As I know people collect and use old computers I've gained a "stay of execution" for the old computer kit while I try to find a better home than a disposal site. If anyone can give a good home to any of the items in the following list please get in touch with me. Conditions: * All equipment is unwarranted. I don't know if any of it actually works. I can try to find out, but I can't guarantee anything. * Shipping not included. This isn't a for-profit exercise, but I can't run a for-loss exercise either - I don't think the powers that be would like that. * If you want to make a donation it'll be most welcome. In short, pay the shipping and I'll get it to you - carrier of your choice so long as they'll pick up from here. I don't know if any of it works, but I can try plugging it in and see what happens. It's all UK-spec, so if it's shipped elsewhere I don't know if it will work on your mains power, etc. If you want to cover the cost, I'll ship it to just about anywhere. List as follows: 1x Apricot F10 (whirrs, beeps and flashes lights when plugged in) 1x Apricot 5.25 drive, model no XN525F 1x Apricot Monitor, model no 12HM 1x Maxi 150MB tape drive (it's as big as a modern thin desktop and weighs as much, no media) 1x Tandon 286/N 1x Peanut PC2000 (this looks pretty old) 1x Northstar 100 (early 80s server, pretty big), and keyboard 1x Hasler telex, model no TU/014/10 4x Signet 3 boxes 1x Signet PC? (it looks like a PC, only it's dated Jun 1982) 1x Ampex ATL Model 210 + keyboard 1x Victor V286 1x Unisys <something> 5059 There's a fair amount of 386/486/pentium 1 + 2 class stuff, old CRTs (working). We're based in Blackburn, UK. If you have any questions feel free to contact me and I'll try to answer them as best as I can. I hope someone can give at least some of this a home - it seems a real shame to let it all go. Regards, Chris Shallcross my.name at gmail.com

18 years, 9 months

Looking for ancient FreeBSD

by vp＠cs.drexel.edu

> This is almost Classic - I'm looking for a place to download an old > version of FreeBSD, specifically the last release of the 2.2.x branch, > which I think was 2.2.8. Hey, don't call it classic, I use 2.2.7 on a file server at home! :-) When the FreeBSD team moved on to 3.0 I thought they left the "true path" - too many changes to the BSD core. Eventually I switched to OpenBSD, but this one has also changed too much recently. > http://ftp.csie.chu.edu.tw/FreeBSD/ISO-IMAGES-i386/ FreeBSD-2/2/8-mini.iso: 140Mb distribution! That's more like it! I bet it also contains the source. **vp

18 years, 9 months

Need some help with TRS-80 research

by news＠computercollector.com

I'm doing some homework about the TRS-80. This is for a follow-up to the article I published on Aug. 8, "The controversial birth of the TRS-80". http://www.snarc.net/c-trs80.htm What I'm looking for now is ANY information about a company called "Microcomputer Techniques". Any help is appreciated. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/

18 years, 9 months

PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: PCs that support only one floppy drive in hardware > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:20:23 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >> you might be right by coincidence. However the second letter and third are >> for options to the basic drive such as door latch or media ready indicator. > >The third letter, sure. But I thought single speed/density drives had >just 2 letters (type and options), dual speed/dual density drives had 3. >I've certainly seen HFR (or some other 3 letter combination starting with >'HD') for 3.5" drives capable of 720K and 1.44M. OK I have one so I know what it is. FD55BVR, care to guess? Also a FD55BFR? Hint neither are dual speed. Allison

18 years, 9 months

Spotted at local surplus (STL) - IBM, SGI

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Been so busy with work, finally took some "me time" and went to the local scrapper/junkyard/surplus place and noticed these items there: SGI Impact Indigo II (probably about six of them) SGI Indy R5000 (probably about six of them) IBM 3480 If someone has interest, let me know. Jay

18 years, 9 months

Luddite...aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Luddites

by cmurray＠eagle.ca

A techno-luddite? How apropos! I like to question what technology gives us. Old computers or new. They can challenge us but that's as far as I care to go. Murray--

18 years, 9 months

luddites!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: luddites! > From: Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> > Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:14:52 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >>>After all, aren't we all a bunch of Techno-Ludites :^) > >i haven't wasted any bandwidth *all day* so, > >I'd like to point out that the Ludites where not anti-technology. > >They were anti-loosing-your-job-due-to-technology. They didn't think it >was right that 10 people working should become 3 people working just >because a new machine was installed... > >(and, I think they had a point. I think economists are all smoking >really good dope when they talk about mythical 'productivity gains') > >-brad What wasnt noticed by the displaced employees was the 7 that got bumpped went to making more machines, fixing them, selling them teaching those three left behind how to run them. Just a different view. With 35 years of high tech I've seen a few cycles and even displaced a few times. Allison

18 years, 9 months

Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1"

by zmerch＠30below.com

Rumor has it that 9000 VAX may have mentioned these words: >I am not familiar with those new ATX style power supplies, Not ATX... think "laptop." There are some mini-ITX motherboards that use laptop-type power supplies - external, 1 or *maybe* 2 voltages on the pins, and an external LED to actually show if the sucker's got power & working. That is the dark LED that tells Sellam the PS (and in this case, PoS) is no worky. Very handy if you want a small, very quiet, yet somewhat powerful PC. Somewhat in this case means: Laptop < mini-ITX < Desktop PC I'm looking at one to build a new TiVo out of. JDR's got a decent deal on a VIA (think: "Used to been Cyrix") 1GHz box for <$300. Quiet is good when you want to watch TV. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.

18 years, 9 months

Intel 80C186/80C188 Evaluation Board? Re: Single Board Computers

by chrism3667＠yahoo.com

>Can't help with the evaluation board, but the mention >of the 80186 reminds me of a system I worked on >(Durango Poppy) using one (an added 80286 was an >option if you wanted to run Unix). Interesting. Wish there was some info on that. >It's a great chip for its time with DMA done the >right way and lots of I/O pins. Unfortunately, any >programs that play with PC hardware are doomed to >failure. Right. Those aspects of typical pc hardware that had been integrated on the chip. Seemingly though, the Tandy 2000 ignored at least some of the extra facilities of the 80186 and simply utilized it as a fast 8086. That board has one of the highest chip counts I've ever seen. But it's also true that video and much else was integrated. >I've got a little FAX receiver box that was designed >to fit between a printer and a PC and would either >print FAXen as received or store them on a DOS->formatted 1.44MB floppy drive that was part of the >unit. It uses an 80C188 and I recall looking at the >27C256 BIOS and noting that it implemented many of >the PC BIOS calls, particularly those for diskette >I/O. It has 256K of RAM. The thing isn't much >bigger than a floppy drive and is powered by a wall >wart. It'd make a neat little CP/M-86 system if I >ever got around to programming it. I'd guess the bios was bought, or at least parts of it, from a supplier of such (AMI, Phoenix...). >But this brings up a question--how many early non-PC >PC's are there wandering around? IOW, things that >have the ability to run a full operating system, but >aren't PC's per se. My DSL model is certainly one-->runs Linux (just telnet to it and you get a login). I opened up a color IBM terminal years ago, mainly because I wanted to see if the monitor could be utilized as a vga (apparently had analog inputs, and only r,g,b, and sync lines). Phor phun. 3179 is the # sticking in my head, which might correspond to the model number. But then again it might not. I never actually bothered, but upon cursory observation of the logic board - 8088 based - I was amazed how much "pc stuph" was present. In other words most of the makings of a pc/xt motherboard were present as I recall. Of course there were no provision for disk drives and whatnot, and may not even have had a bios as we know it. I'd like to get another one. BYTE tried to deal with a similar issue issue years ago ~'85 in one of their special issues. They wanted a baseline for IBM compatibility. As loopy as it sounds, the Zenith Z-100 was elected a basis by which all others were compared. Funny that an incompatible was used to judge all the other compatibles. >I'm not sure if that counts, though. It may well not >be running Linux >on anything that you would recognise as PC hardware. >It might not have >a BIOS as such, even. Someone told me that MINIX didn't deal with the bios at all. What about Linux? >How about a TIVO or an MP3 player? Certainly most >video game boxes have the necessary resources (I seem >to recall a web site dedicated to getting early >Xboxes running Linux--it wasn't as simply as you'd >think). No, but they figured out a way of doing it w/o cracking the box. There was a couple of games with bugs that upon crashing (intentionally) made a back door available. You need some sort of usb device (a thumb drive was often utilized). Blah blah blah. I'm going there one of these days. I'm just hoping the release of the 360 brings down the price of the original ;). I wrinkled my nose when I found out a sort of special distro was needed, but I guess the hardware differed, however slightly, enough from a vanilla pc to warrant it. There's a kewell book called "Hacking the Xbox" that goes into different aspects of reverse engineering. Doesn't deal with installing Linux too much though. The TIVO's I looked at didn't use intel procs. I want to say PowerPC, but it might even be different from that. And I don't think any (other) game consoles used an 80x86. The Genesis used the 68000 I know. Show me wrong if I'm wrong. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com

18 years, 9 months

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test-drb October 2005