October 2005 - test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:32:14 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/23/2005 at 9:22 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>If it has the same CFM rating and the same wattage, what does it matter? > >Noise level, maybe, but who cares? > >Cheers, >Chuck > What changes is the ability to push a given CFM against a head (backpressure). As to who care's? Officially not I. Unofficially as someone that's got one running and all, cooling is life for electronics. Anything running nearly 200W of DC is going to need a little breeze lest it become a pizza oven. There are alot of boards that will live longer and all if there is enough air passing over them. It's a good thing. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jim Battle <frustum at pacbell.net> wrote: > I have something that you want? Too bad, it's mine. I'm not sharing. I never said that I'm not sharing! I just can't say who gave me my copy of the VAXBI spec to protect that person, but s/he has told that s/he has no problem with me spreading the spec further. I've got it in scanned form, so it's too big to go on my FTP site, but I can send you a copy on paper or CD-R. MS

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? 1. I don't want an emulator, I want The Real Thing (tm). 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to contaminate my house with a pee sea. MS

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote: > Wow, where did you find the specs? I have to protect my source. MS

20 years, 7 months

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Todays stuff

by marvin＠rain.org

I've been waiting for several years, but finally got the opportunity to pick up a bunch of classic stuff today (with a garage still left to be emptied.) Included are two Poly 88s plus a couple of chassis's and parts, a Lobo Drives LX expansion chassis, a LOT of floppy disks that look like they came from Lobo Drives when they went out of business, and a bunch of Apple boards and docs. Some of this stuff (along with a LOT more) will be available up at VCF. As usual, I'm starting to make a list of things and will post it a couple of days before heading up to VCF.

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Well, you might have a real core, but there's the problem of providing real > I/O. Are you going to implement Unibus and QBus too? No, I'll implement something far better - VAXBI! MS

20 years, 7 months

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Book worms

by KParker＠workcover.com

I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. Does this ring a bell with anyone. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************

20 years, 7 months

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Book worms

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Peter Norton I have the programmers guide for IBM PC and PS2. There were others from Peter Norton. Allison > >Subject: Book worms > From: "Parker, Kevin" <KParker at workcover.com> > Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:14:23 +0930 > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >I am trying to identify a book that I want to get. > >My vague recollection is that it was about IBM or IBM Blue and may have >been about the history of IBM or one of its owners/directors. > >I vaguely recall the front cover had a man standing in it. > >Does this ring a bell with anyone. > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker >Web Services Consultant >WorkCover Corporation > >p: 08 8233 2548 >m: 0418 806 166 >e: kparker at workcover.com >w: www.workcover.com > >++++++++++ > >************************************************************************ >This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may >contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality >and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you >are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > >Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the >WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have >been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files >transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > >If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any >copies. >************************************************************************ >

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Jos Dreesen <jos.mar at bluewin.ch> wrote: > While not directly targetting X or A, a rather good set of > freeware tools for VLSI development is available at : > > > http://www-asim.lip6.fr/recherche/alliance/ I'm well aware of Alliance and it's awesome, but it's for ASICs rather than FPGAs. The interesting question is whether the P&R function from Alliance could be ported to an FPGA. Suppose we found an FPGA for which we have a complete definition of the routing fabric and configuration image format, or obtained this information for some common commercial FPGA through someone with the right connections or through reverse engineering. We would still need a P&R tool, which is a very major task. I wonder if the P&R function from Alliance could be adapted to the task. But I don't know any of the fundamental theory behind P&R in ASICs versus FPGAs to know whether this could be done or if it's a totally different problem. Now if we only had the bucks to fab a real chip instead of screwing with FPGAs... Then we could use Alliance and go completely open source from start to finish. Does anyone know how much does it cost to fab a chip? MS

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a > performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. Yes, that's about what I expect to get in my first implementation. I would be quite satisfied with it, for my very first CPU chip design. MS

20 years, 7 months

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SMD Disk AnalyzerAvailible

by ken＠seefried.com

I have a Wilson Laboratories, Inc. MWX-1000S SMD Disk Analyzer that I'd like to see go to someone that can use it for the benefit of the Classiccmp community. Unfortunately, I don't have any idea if it works and have no way to test it, though it came into my hands with the claim that it worked. I'll send it for the cost of postage. It's in the form-factor of a modest size suitcase and weighs about 18 lbs, near as I can figure. Please contact me off list. Ken

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:04:22 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> >P&R is mostly sorting is my guess. However my designs view point for >open source >is being able to keep the computer system capable of bootstaping itself. >Looking at the >latest version of red-hat I find it hard to do any real development work >as everything >is becoming too interconnected with every thing else. P&R is taking the available resources those being: number of PINS on the package that are for input output or either. Number of macrocells Avalable number of "wires" in the routing array (like crosspoint switches) The devices I'd worked with are two generations (or more) old and it was hard to fully use the available cells or if you did you were hitting the routing limits. However the number of possible terms are HUGE. >PS. I like small computers -- I just use big ones like PC's to play games. >12 to 18 bits to me is a nice sized machine. I happen to like sizes that are multiples of 8 (8, 16 and 24) however 12bits are special to me. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 16:26:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Allison wrote: > >>70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. >>Current is under 1ns. >> >>Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft >>barrier is outside the chip. >> >> >> >The current CPU design barrier for me is the Beer Budget I have. >This gets me 70 ns memory and 20 ns/logic cell programable devices >and standard slow I/O devices. In 1982 I used a PDP-8/e so that >is a speed I am looking at. 1985 an XT. >Lets just say FPGA design is 1 generation slower than the latest >techology. From what little I have seen of custom design as the >designs shrink ( I still think in terms of 5 volt TTL ) layout rather >than switching speed is what will slow you down. Well on my less than beer budget (I'm cheap) The static 32k byte devices I've pulled off of old 386 and 486 board are 25ns and below. Now he typical 30pin simms are 70ns dynamic rams. The core for PDP-8e generation was the limiting factor at 1.5uS or more than 20 times slower. The FPGAs I was playing with are as fast as late 70s TTL so there is no reason I cant do a faster PDP-8 with "old stuff". Then again the PDP-8e was limited by the 1970s tech of core speed not logic speed it could esily go faster if core could keep up. The mid 80s 6120 (Decmate II and III) CMOS pdp8 chip was faster too despite being microprogramed and multiplxed bus. However if your assumption that FPGA is one speed generation behind current silicon that makes it still under 1ns/cell which is plenty fast. Granted there is some speed penelty for nonoptimum routing. People that have done PDP-8s in FPGAs easily exceed the basic 8e speeds save for they don't seem to push them at all. As to the 1982 XT, that was slow by then standards by a factor of not less than 2. In 1982 the 8086/88 was up to 10mhz already. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 18:03:34 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> wrote: > >> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.harhan.org> writes: >> >> Michael> Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> >> If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC >> >> version? >> >> Michael> 2. A pee sea based emulator requires a pee sea. I refuse to >> Michael> contaminate my house with a pee sea. >> >> SIMH would run on a Mac, wouldn't it? >> >> :-) >> >> paul >> > >SIMH will run on a VAX, in fact :-). > >Getting back to FPGA's, I know of a couple FPGA implementations of >PDP-11's. (They are mostly KDJ11 clones, but they differ in a couple >of tiny respects.) With extreme effort in the late 90's, they managed >to make 4 FPGA's be about a factor of 2 factor on most benchmarks than >a 11/93. > >By the time the FPGA implementations made it to market the PC-based >emulators were so much more cost-effective for most applications >(despite their warts of running under a host OS...) > >I suspect that a FPGA implementation of a VAX would have a >performance about equal to a 11/780 if done by an average Joe. >Someone with much experience in caching/pipelining could probably >eek out a factor of 2x or 3x by pulling out all the tricks in the >book. > >Tim. Considering that 2901C (750ALU) was 100ns (1982 timeframe) I'd think by now the latest FPGAs are easily able to beat that by a factor of 25 or more. So I think that's on the low side. Without pipelining to any great extent and the availability of far faster memory than the mid 80s. I'd think 10x is shooting low. Seriously the more you put on the chip the faster it will go as busses are still working at ~1ns/ft and them chips are at best less than .2". The cray XMP was the tour de force around those limits back in the 80s. I'd think the real factor is that the VAX was CISC to the extreme and the microVAX (320780 chip) was on the order of 1-2million transistor equivilent gives one an idea of the task size though. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:58:39 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>Slightly OT: How fast (in comparison to the original 11/780) do PC-based >>emulators run? My only close-up exposure with this line was a couple of >>years with an 11/750. It didn't seem like a speed demon then. >> The 750 was around .6 to .7 a 780 for the cpu however the mass storage systems for the 780s were more elaborate and faster. >The emulators run alot faster, but the problem is the 11 is still a >commerical product >so I don't think we will get better new hardware out. > >>If PC-based emulators are fast enough, why bother with the IC version? An >>intellectual exercise? Or will the FPGA version run an order of magnitude >>faster than the original? >> >> >I suspect about the same speed as PC's 15 years ago or 74Sxx speeds. >The real speed limit on computers >now days is the cache memory. A external bus depending on memory used >is the factor. >Most common memory is about 120 ns to 70 ns access time unless you want >to use the latest >chips. 70ns was 1982 tech level. Tech for 1995 was 25ns for memory. Current is under 1ns. Don't forget one of the features of current hardware is the 1ns/ft barrier is outside the chip. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: FPGA VAX update > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 17:09:48 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I think fab a real chip would be a better idea -- but then how many >> people want a vax? >> Ok, I don't . Looking at a different post the vax has large microcode, >> so a FPGA that >> can have internal ram be configured as micro-code tables would be handy. > >Did all VAX machines have microcode? > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org Far as I know, yes. For the 7xx series absolutely. There was limited rom microcode to enable booting and diags but the bulk of it was loaded at boot. Soft loaded microcode (ignoring emulated instructions) mostly disappeared with the Microvax and later VAX on silicon. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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Public Service Announcement: AVOID "bobsbid1"

by vcf＠siconic.com

...or Another Reason Why I Fricking Hate eBay Sorry this is so long, but it's worth a read in case you ever happen upon an item being offered by this seller. Read this before you get burned. So a couple weeks ago I asked one of my employees to go on eBay and find an external power supply for this cute little Dell P4 system that I got in without the P/S. He dutifully went onto eBay, found the most reasonably priced item with a Buy It Now, and bought it for me. Later, when I went to pay for the item, I noticed that the seller had 26000+ feedback total, with 1700 postive and 34 negative just in the past month. If it were me, I would've avoided this seller like a foul odor in the air, but my naive teenage employee doesn't know better. So anyway, from past experience, I figured there was probably a 50/50 chance this would go well, because like, what are the odds that a wall wart (more like a big slab) would be bad? So I went ahead and sent the PayPal payment. A week later (yesterday) I receive my item. The first thing I did before plugging it into my computer was check the voltages, because even though the seller claimed it was "TESTED WORKING, NO DOA", I didn't want to take the chance of this thing zapping the computer. So what do you know, I get no voltage. Then I notice the LED is out. I try another power cord but it's pretty plainly dead. Oh bother. I called the seller this morning (before the generous 7 day "DOA warranty" runs out) and get some lady that tells me someone will call me back. Later in the morning I get an e-mail explaining their RMA procedure. So now I'm being required to ship the item back to them on my dime. I think the conclusion of this warning can be aptly made by simply posting some of the negative feedback this seller has gotten in the past week ([-] means negative feedback, [N] means neutral): [-] Won item, didn't have item, ordered, never received, recd full refund 4wks later - geb249 Oct-13-05 11:16 (5811227432) [-] The computer doenst work!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - adilsonmarin Oct-12-05 12:21 (5232544487) Reply by bobsbid1: Windows you need to install windows, or better yet get a mac:)) [N] no coment - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:02 (5809582719) Reply by bobsbid1: seems a shame to neg him for a misspelled feedback oh what the... heres your neg [-] buy blinking book-ends here - mcnabbster Oct-11-05 19:01 (6803142818) Reply by bobsbid1: get them while they are hot!! they wont last at these prices remember you need 2 [-] DIDNT GET THE PRICE YOU WANTED SO THAT WHY YOU DIDNT SHIP? STAY AWAY FRAUD.!!!! - thaiartcrafts_com Oct-11-05 16:05 (5811566861) Reply by bobsbid1: we got a grand for a 50.00 item and he is mad because we lost it? [-] GEFORCE 4 TI 4200 DOSE?NT WORK NOT FUNCTIONAL - NOT DOA - BEWARE - goodfriday Oct-11-05 14:48 (8703050567) Reply by bobsbid1: his spell checker does'nt work either:) do you think it was his kumputer? Follow-up by goodfriday: There policy should have read -AS IS- 7yrs100% on ebay you decide. [N] Excellent selection & products, fast delivery, Poor customer service - cdnbud Oct-07-05 08:32 (5219793883) Reply by bobsbid1: This is a self sevice site would you mind picking on yourself elsewhere? [-] BUYERS BEWARE! Totally mis represented item and will not return. DO NOT BUY! - bhickster2ir3m Oct-07-05 04:48 (5812863214) Reply by bobsbid1: WARNING NON READERS! IT IS NOT TO LATE** STAY IN SCHOOL** And this is just within the LAST 7 DAYS. Notice that he automatically leaves negative feedback for the buyer if the buyer leaves him either negative or even NEUTRAL feedback. Needless to say, I strenuously suggest you do NOT attempt to do business with this lout. With all the revenues eBay generates from this junk dealer, I doubt they'll do anything about him, which is why I felt compelled to post a warning to the list. With all the business they do, I figure at least one other person here might benefit from my experience. As for me, I sent the seller an e-mail asking them to just refund my money and be done with it. If that doesn't work, I'm just going to go straight to PayPal with my complaint and try to get a straight refund. It'll be more productive than trying to go through with the seller's absolutely ridiculous RMA process. The auction in question: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6807210038 You've been warned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]

20 years, 7 months

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Found FPGA solution (tentative)

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hello again, It looks like I have found a workable FPGA solution for my project that involves no Winblows and no GUI. It isn't 100% open source, but it IS 100% command line, which is most important to me. I didn't realise that Xilinx apparently supports Linux in the free "webpack" version of its tools, and this "webpack" supports Virtex II, which would be the appropriate FPGA family for my project if going the Xilinx route. I'm downloading the Linux version of the ISE 7.1 "webpack" right now. When it finishes downloading, I'll see if I can make it do what I want, which is to use the command line P&R tools as a back-end for Icarus Verilog like shown in Icarus documentation, targeting Virtex II. MS

20 years, 7 months

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How to test 4116 ?s ?

by jos.mar＠bluewin.ch

I have a couple of 4116 DRAM's that I like to test. My approach will be to put an ic socket in a ZX spectrum and just fire it up with the DUT in the socket. Speccie works -> DRAM chip OK Speccie does not work -> DRAM chip dead. Is this too simpleminded , or are there better ways to test 4116's ? Jos I

20 years, 7 months

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Fan for DEC H7861 power supply?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Fan for DEC H7861 power supply? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:38:24 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> I've made a bit of progress with my new 11/73 (got a prompt from >> console ODT), but I found a problem. One of the power supply fans is >> dead. Anyone know where I can get a replacement fan for the H7861 >> power supply? > >I know DEC used some odd fans in some of their machines (e.g. the 35V >75Hz ones in the 11/44 cabinet), but is there anything particularly odd >about this one? Most of the time you can find something that will replace >them. > >-tony Dead plain nothing special. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. Myself I needed a while back a 7x9 that had decenders one of the M6571 series has that so I found that data sheet. They fit easily into a 2716 or similar. Hint where they go in rom is based on SxC IE: number of scan lines typically 11 or 12 for 7x9 fonts and the number of characters. For 7x9 CRT fonts (ROW scanned) the low 4 addresses lines are the row data and the next 7 (128 char font) are the character address. Nothing magic. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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OT: Tube Audio

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: OT: Tube Audio > From: William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:39:12 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> I'm halfway willing to officially sanction all discussion of antique radios >> ;) > >That half might get you punched in the nose. > >Actually, there are no good antique radio groups/lists - all are watered >down. There is a good military radio list, however. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > That and we reaching the point where computers and radios that contain or are married to them are over 10 years old (some a whole lot older, think Pioneer). Allison

20 years, 7 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

stevew <stevew at ka6s.com> wrote: > There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is > many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. If it's for Winblows, why are you even telling me about it? It is illegal to bring a Winblows machine across the threshold of my house. > It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. I don't want a windowed environment or a waveform viewer, I want to do all my development from an ASR33! That's why I love Icarus Verilog, it is 100% command line. Although unfortunately it wants "modern UNIX" and won't build under 4.3BSD (written in C++ for a start), since it's command line I can have it running on my Linux box and use it from my main development VAX via rsh. > Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for > 6.0. OK, that's good to know. > What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as > well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? Because I want to, for religious reasons. > It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? I don't want a good tool, I want a free one (free as in speech). Freedom is more important than quality to me. I'll gladly settle for a design that requires a 10 times larger FPGA than necessary and has a 10 times lower maximum clock speed if it can be done with free-as-in-speech tools. > Good luck with your project. > > Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger) Thanks, MS, religious zealot, evangelist of Free Software and command line environment.

20 years, 7 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, charlesmorris at direcway.com wrote: > Now that I have an apparently functioning PDP-8/A with 16K of core, and > (hopefully soon) a working RL02, I am wondering what operating system > would be appropriate. Currently I don't have any other input device > aside from the programmer's panel and the keyboard, so naturally I need > something that can be booted from an RL02... > > Any recommendations? Will software written for, say, an 8/E or 8/I run > on an 8/A without patching? > Could I run OS/8? TSS/8? Many years ago I used to have access to a TTY > timeshared to an 8/E running Edusystem 50 (TSS/8) and would like that > "feel" again... The only OSes I know of that supports the RL8A is OS/8 and RTS-8. For OS/8, one RL02 will look like five disks (it's huge! :-) ). Yes, as far as software is concerned, most everything written for an 8/I or 8/E will also run on an 8/A. I say most, since there are some incompatibilties that could bite you. But then you're playing with undocumented opcodes, or hardware that is optional. However, the 8/E and 8/A are *very* similar. In fact, some 8/A systems had the KK8E CPU in them. Things that are incompatible, as far as I can remember offhand right now: BSW instruction exists only on 8/E and 8/A. MQ register exists always on 8/E and 8/A, but only exists on 8/I if you have EAE. The 8/A cannot have an EAE. The EAE of the 8/E can run in two modes, where one is compatible with the EAE of the 8/I. If you execute a RAR RAL, you'll get different results depending on CPU. I don't remember exactly what the 8/I does, but the 8/E will load the AC with the PC for the high five bits, while the low seven will be fixed (can't remember the exact value). The 8/A will load the AC with the PC. But since all this stuff is things most programs don't do, it should not bite you. (I know that KERMIT-12 uses these tricks to decide what kind of CPU you actually are running on.) Since RTS-8 is a bit magic, in addition to being a bit hard to get perhaps, I'd say you should go with OS/8. RTS-8 uses OS/8 for the interactive work anyhow, so you won't get much extra fun out of it, unless you're really starting to write some special software. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 7 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 26, Issue 69

by stevew＠ka6s.com

On Saturday 22 October 2005 11:37 pm, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) >Subject: FPGA VAX update >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0510230037.AA21104 at ivan.Harhan.ORG> >Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, Stuff deleted - >I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons >from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making >non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared >to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more >important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in >beer.) Michael, First of all - I love Icarus (I must - I organized and wrote the test suite for it ;-) and I use it for module level stuff at home before I import to the professional tools BUT there is another option for simulation. There is a program called Veritakwin running on Windows that is $50 and is many times faster (4-5X) than Icarus. It is a windowed environment and has a built in wave-form viewer. Think Mentor modelsim like. You might think about it as a verilog too. The implementation is more complete than Icarus and also faster. >The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream >or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is >that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of >the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of >the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- >engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, >which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is >enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA >P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: >1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has >experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are >command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition >to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux >version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation >includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog >and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command >line tools from X's proprietary software. First - Steve Williams uses this path on a daily basis for his day job, so it is a proven path. Second - the Xilinx tool is running native on Linux but is a bit flakey for 6.0. What I don't understand is - Why not use the Synthesis tool in Webpack as well? Why even BOTHER with Icarus for this part of the tool chain? It isn't as good as Synplify - but it DOES work most of the time?????? >Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the >Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I >could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? The Windows version is faster than the Solaris version. I believe the lInux version is faster than either...though that is from a very faulty memory. If I were setting up for a private (home) project with FPGAs today I would choose Veritakwin and Webpack as my tool chain. I get MUCH faster simulations, and a working synthesis/P&R tool in Webpack. (I've really never figured out why Steve bothered to do the Synthesis tool beyond the challenge of it...maybe that's the answer..) Good luck with your project. Steve Wilson (Professional Verilog slinger)

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

Answering my own post: > all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought > them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. I looked up some more facts. NeoCad was founded in November 1991 and had about 50 employees when it was sold to Xilinx in March 1995 for $35 million. The large FPGAs back then were pushing 10,000 gates. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

20 years, 7 months

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Character Generator ROM data

by cswiger＠widomaker.com

Gang - Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video cards to paint ascii characters on a display. For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in google w/o anything usable turning up. ******* ***** * * * * * * * * * * * ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ***** * * --Chuck

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by msokolov＠ivan.Harhan.ORG

Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, I have made it known in the past that I have interest in designing and building a new CPU chip implementing the VAX architecture (just as DEC would have made a new implementation of the arch from the spec, not a clone of any particular past implementation), and since I don't have the $$$ to fab a real chip, it'll be a "soft chip" in an FPGA at first. This project has been on my mind for a long time, mostly far on the back burner, but some other life circumstances have recently dragged me once again into the fun world of FPGAs and HDL coding (I'm doing a consulting job that involves lots of FPGA work), and this circumstance has brought my FPGA VAX project back closer to the front of my mind. Obviously there are tons of issues involved in a project of such ambition, and I don't want to bore you all to death talking about all of them, but the one issue that I have a difficult time solving on my own is that of FPGA tools. I'll be using Icarus to compile Verilog to EDIF. I have heard sermons >from "paid professional" chip designers working on the dark side (making non-free designs with non-free tools) about how inferior it is compared to whatever non-free shit they use, but I don't care, freedom is more important to me than quality. (And I mean free as in speech, not as in beer.) The problem is of course with place & route and the actual FPGA bitstream or SOF (SRAM object file) generation. The first part of the problem is that the fucking FPGA vendors won't give us a complete description of the FPGA routing fabric and bitstream/SOF format. The second part of the problem is that even if this information were pried out or reverse- engineered, someone would still have to write an open source P&R tool, which is a *major* task - certainly not for me, designing a VAX CPU is enough work for me, I don't need the extra task of developing an FPGA P&R tool. There are only two practical choices when it comes to the actual target FPGA: A or X, which of course stand for Altera and Xilinx. I would be content with either if I could work out a usable toolchain for it that would take me from EDIF (Icarus Verilog output) to the SOF or bitstream file (A/X respective terminology). To make the long story short, there are two specific areas where I could use help from other listmembers: 1. The Xilinx option. The maintainer of Icarus Verilog only has experience with Xilinx. He uses X's proprietary P&R tools, but they are command line tools and are available for Solaris and Linux in addition to Losedows. (I still can't figure out whether the Xilinx-blessed Linux version is truly native or runs through WINE.) Icarus documentation includes a complete worked-out example of a build starting from Verilog and ending in a bitstream, feeding iverilog output (EDIF) to the command line tools from X's proprietary software. Since this might be a workable option for me, does anyone here have the Xilinx Foundation tools installed on a Solaris or Linux box on which I could get an account for work on my FPGA VAX project? 2. The Altera option. The company for which I'm currently doing the consulting project that brought me back into the FPGA world uses Altera, so I have an Altera FPGA dev board and their fucking Quartus II software. I still haven't figured out whether there is any way to use the latter without the GUI, however, and I only have the Losedows version currently and WINE isn't exactly my cup of tea. So I don't know if I'll be able to shoehorn Quartus into a backend for Icarus Verilog like the good maintainer did with Xilinx Foundation. However, one coworker tells me that he has seen an open source project that apparently reverse-engineered A's SOF format and can make an SOF >from scratch using only open source tools. Needless to say, hearing that made me salivate. The problem is, however, that this guy (my coworker) does not remember the project name, much less its home page, and I have looked for it without success both on the major open source hardware sites and with Google. The feat sounds so incredible that it may just be too good to be true. My coworker said that he'll look for it on his Linux box at home. But barring that, has anyone else heard of this project? TIA for any help, MS

20 years, 7 months

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FPGA VAX update

by swtpc6800＠comcast.net

I reverse engineered some Altera PLDs (EP600 and EP900) around 1990 and that took a few weeks. I knew some folks at NeoCad that reverse engineered the Xilinx family and made better design tools than Xilinx. They got no help at all from Xilinx. After competing with NeoCad for a few years Xilinx bought them in 1995 and used the NeoCad tools. The parts today are much larger than they were in 1995 and it took a large group to reverse engineer the parts then. Another problem is that Xilinx keeps developing new devices so you have a moving target. Xilinx has a free version (ISE WebPACK) that supports the smaller FPGAs on Windows and Red Hat Linux. The scope of the problem and the availability of free software is going to make it difficult to get enough people to tackle the problem. It happened before but they sold out for the big bucks. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley

20 years, 7 months

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EMAS on 2966 (was Re: Xenix on the Acorn 32016)

by gtoal＠gtoal.com

Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Graham Toal wrote: > Now that's interesting. Having seen some of Acorn's internal source and > the way they often worked, it seemed there was a lot of "just go ahead > and do it" philosophy going on. Maybe someone mentioned 32000 Xenix in > passing and then some other programmer took it upon themselves to add > support in to the linker :) The only programmer was Mark Taunton (also Ex Edinburgh, hence why the linker was written in Imp, and also why the link format had a lot in common with that of EMAS!). I think he may still be working for ARM somewhere. I bet he'd remember. I had a listing of it because I was the only other Imp programmer there and I was helping find a storage bug that was causing link errors for some program of mine. (The listing has a few of my annotations). > Again, I'll check that I don't have it on disk when I get home in a month... It was written in Imp. I'm sure you'd remember if you'd seen it! > > The Edinburgh collection is getting quite impressive. We also have > > recovered locally written operating systems for the PDP9 and PDP15, > > two O/Ses for PDP11s, Perkin Elmer 32bit, 68000s and of course the > > big one, EMAS for ICL29XX > > That last one caught my eye, given that we have an ICL 2966 which we'd > like to (try to) get operational one day (no mean feat, given how > dismantled, rusty, and spread all to hell and back across lots of > storerooms it is at the moment!). > > Seems like there are "lots" (as in more than one :) of people/places who > know about the 1900 line, but the 29xx's seem to be largely forgotten. > Of course a complete 1900 would be nice, but I doubt there are any left > anywhere... Who is 'we' in this context? I can't imagine anyone just happening to have an ICL mainframe lying around, never mind the power to run it or the manpower to put it all back together again! (Hold on a sec... quick visit to Google... aha! so you're the curator at Bletchley Park! That explains a lot :-) Hadn't seen your Retrobeep site before! If I were still in the UK, I'd be happy to drop by with a shitload of Acorn hardware I grabbed before it headed for the dumpster) So yes, it would be fantastic to get EMAS on line again, and if your hardware works, it's definitely doable because the 2900 EMAS is the only one we actually have full binaries for! And the University has pretty complete archives on a CD jukebox where we could go fetch any binaries that we're missing. What's especially lucky is that we have a boot tape, which you're welcome to download and see how far it gets you: http://history.dcs.ed.ac.uk/archive/os/emas/emas2/boottape/ We have several people on the history project who might be interested in a project like this; If you think you might be serious, I would encourage you to join our mailing list and tell folks what you're thinking of and ask for volunters. Some are retired; two unfortunately work in the US. I'll put together a list of the people who would be relevant to this and we can contact them individually if you decide to start up a project. I would lay odds that if you could get funding and it became obvious that it was a serious project, we could get help from Edinburgh University (EUCS which used to be called ERCC) and pull in a lot more folks than just the ones already in the History Group. We don't have binaries for either the ICL4/75 version or any of the later IBM mainframe (or NEC/Fujistsu/Hitachi clone) versions, so although emulators exist for the IBM (Hercules), there would have been a major bootstrapping problem in cross-compiling the sources to IBM binaries. And although we had ICL2900 binaries, we have no ICL2900 emulator. It never occurred to me that we might find 2900 hardware somewhere. This could be a major break for our project if you decide to run with it and the hardware can be made serviceable. Also a working system would be the perfect place to start from to write a 2900 emulator. The biggest obstacle that I can think of would be building a disk image with all the relevant files on it. We have them as individual files, not as a disk image. But we have *major* amounts of source code and even an Imp compiler, so we ought to be able to hack the disk drivers around and create a user-level program to build a disk image... Incidentally, I discovered an ICL engineer on the net today, who worked on the EMAS hardware: http://www.whiteheadm.co.uk/html/30_years_in_computing.html - I'll be dropping him an email this evening to tell him about the Edinburgh project. If you start up a 2900 project, he sounds like someone well worth speaking to. Let's talk more about this, either here or offline, or preferably on the Edinburgh group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/edinburgh-computer-history/ Regards, Graham PS Does Bletchley have any systems that can read DECtapes? We still have a few tapes in our project from the PDP9 and others which we've never read back in. Including one for an operating system called "DECsys" which I believe some of the guys on this list are desperate to see!

20 years, 7 months

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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 11:03:04 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Drat I just threw out that data. Well not the ROM data but the manual >for a video display >that had the character set. Remember the roms used desenders so it was >more like 8x12?. I'm sure the VT100 series manuals are on line somewere. Other manuals that have that data was the Processor Tech VDM-1. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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Calling Mike Stein...

by dm561＠torfree.net

ISP's been down a few times; anyone else having trouble or waiting for a reply from me, pse try again. tnx, m ------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 14:14:09 -0500 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca Subject: Calling Mike Stein... Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord

20 years, 7 months

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Any own an 11/725...?

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 10/23/05, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > How hard would it be to get a Unibus working in a VAX-11/725? I > doubt I'll *ever* manage to get one, but if I did, I'd much rather > switch it to SCSI than have to deal with the RC25. Hard? Not hard at all - yank the KLESI-U and drop in a Unibus SCSI card. I happen to _have the RC25 on it, and as has come up before, I've personally never had a problem with them (I should most likely add 'yet'). Of course, I have plenty of smallish SCSI drives that would be perfect, but unless I could find a reasonable deal on a controller, I'll just stick with DEC stuff for now. -ethan

20 years, 7 months

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Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800

by CCTalk＠catcorner.org

> From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:40 PM > > This whole business reminds me of an old scifi short story > where a fellow > wakes up 100 years in the future and finds that car > speedometers go to 350 > mph--but start somewhere around 200 at a dead stop. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Wasn't it "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth Kelly

20 years, 7 months

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Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Short review of $550 power cord plus a new SWTPC 6800 > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:06:59 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Very akin to those cheap import "21 jewel" watches, where most of the >> jewels are simply glued on somewhere on the movement. It isn't a lie, but >> it's a bit of a whopper. > >I read somewhere that when the originator of jewels for bearings in >watches tried to apply for a patent (or some other legal protection) for >his idea, an old (then) watch was exhibited which had a jewel in the >middle of the balance cock in appearently just the right postion, and >thus the patent was not granted. > >Only later (?) was it 'discovered' that this jewel was purely for decoration. > >And weren't there '12 transistor' radios in the 1960's where half of the >transistors had all 3 leads connected to the ground rail (and therefore >they did nothing other than enable that statement to be printed on the case). There were a few that were base 6transistor with parallel devices in the ouput amp to boost the count (8 or 10 tr). I used to buy them to harvest the extra devices or everything as they were had very cheaply. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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Replacing Old LEDs

by fire＠dls.net

I believe that all these LEDs are on ISA or EISA cards, circa 1987. Let me be more specific now that I have gone to radio shack. In 5mm red LEDs they have 12volt, 2.6v, 1.8v Here are web pages: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-2 09 ? 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-209 ?????Model: 276-209 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 1.5. Typical wavelength is 697mm. Size is T-1-3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 36?. 10mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.0, with a maximum voltage of 12.0V. Comes as package of 1. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-0 41 5mm Red LED $1.29 ?????Brand: RadioShack Catalog #: 276-041 ?????Model: 276-041 Availability On-line: In-stock In Store: Check availability Phone: In-stock 1-800-THE-SHACK (1-800-843-7422) (Pricing and availability may vary outside the contiguous 48 United States.) Typical MCD is 10. Typical wavelength is 700mm. Size is T1 3/4 or 5mm. Red lens color. Viewing angle is 30?. Current is 28mA (max). Typical Voltage is 2.25, with a maximum voltage of 2.6V. Comes as package of 2. 276-330 which is 1.8v does not seem to have web page available. Should I just put in the 12v one? And turn around if I get it wrong? or use jumpers to test it before soldering? Bradley

20 years, 7 months

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Need help with a BA11-K power supply

by fireflyst＠earthlink.net

Alright, I thought I would crosspost this to see if anyone here has one of these modules. I don't even need to look at this, I remember that the relay does not kick on at all. I have a DEC jumper that runs across the two molex terminals on the back of this module that just plugs in. So, that being said, does anyone here have any of these modules? I know the other 3 modules of the power supply are common replacements, so I'm hoping someone saved a spare of these too ;) If you've got one you want to part with, let me know! Thanks Julian -----Original Message----- From: owner-info-pdp11 at village.org [mailto:owner-info-pdp11 at village.org] On Behalf Of Don North Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:20 PM To: info-pdp11 at village.org Subject: Re: Need help with a BA11-K power supply Julian Wolfe wrote: > Well, I decided to take another crack at getting my 11/34 system > working again. Currently I've still got some problems with it - > firstly though, the power supply. It blew when I hooked one of the > front panel switches up to it, though nothing seemed to be wrong as > far as what I could tell from all the diagrams. > > Right now the disassembled BA11-K box is sitting in my living room > taking up space. Now, when the PSU blew, I was able to notice that > the spark came from what LOOKED like the portion that the power cord > comes from.I looked at the traces under a magnifying glass, and > couldn't see anything wrong, and I can't smell anything. I checked all the fuses, those seem to be sound. > > In any case, when hooked up to nothing, the fans don't even kick on. On this box the fans are wired directly across the primary of the main power transformer, so unless the fans died (both of them) it would indicate that the main power relay circuit is not kicking in. The K box has a power input circuit breaker on the back that needs to be flipped to on (I'm sure you got this far) and then the power relay needs to be engaged as well. The 11/34 console switch can do this (wires run from the controller to the front panel switch) and it can also be done from the rear 3pin molex connectors as well. Short pins 1-3 to engage the power-on relay. This power circuit on module 54-13089 has it's own little power transformer and a bunch of diodes and capacitors. If shorting the pins on the molex (either one on the back will work, both are wired to the same place) does not turn the fans on, or you don't hear the clicking of the relay, then most likely the sparks that eminated from near the power cord entrance (which is this power module) were from this board, and it likely indicates blown circuitry (sparks are NEVER a good sign). Hope this helps. > Can anyone give me a test process I can go through to diagnose the > problem, or would anyone here be willing to look at the power supply > for me if I shipped it to them? > > As it is, I have this dead machine doing nothing and my girlfriend > keeps pestering me about it every time she comes over because it doesn't work. > > In any case, I'd appreciate any help that could be given to me! > > Thanks! > Julian > > ---------- > To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to > info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message > body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes). ---------- To unsubscribe (or subscribe) from (to) this list, send a message to info-pdp11-request at village.org, with the first line of the message body being "unsubscribe" or "subscribe", respectively (without the quotes).

20 years, 7 months

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PC floppy cable twists...

by Watzman＠neo.rr.com

Re: > > ... discussion about this on another list got me curious - what *was* > the point of that cable twist in a (IBM clone) PC floppy cable, when > every other system on the planet was using straight-through cables? > There are two stories on this one. Story 1 is that the original IBM power supply was only 63 watts, and didn't have enough power to run two drive motors at once. However, the "straight-through" interface only had one motor-control line, but several (3 or 4) drive select lines. By inserting the twist, one of the extra drive select lines became an independent motor on-off control line for the 2nd drive. Story 2 is that for service reasons, IBM did not want to have to deal with drive jumpering, they wanted every drive to be the same so that drives could be simply swapped with no fuss if one failed. I worked for Zenith [Data Systems] at the time, and Zenith [different division, but we had some contact after the IBM PC was introduced] made the original power supplies for IBM [as well as the power supply for my Z-100]. We were always told that story 1 was correct. Also, the logic behind story 2 doesn't address the fact that drive terminators still had to be configured. So I say it was because of the drive motor power requirements. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

20 years, 7 months

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Calling Mike Stein...

by gtulloch＠shaw.ca

Mike Stein, drop me a note, none of your email addresses work anymore :) Regards, Gord

20 years, 7 months

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DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions) > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> > Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:47:02 +0200 (CEST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >> >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions >> > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> >> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not >> > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS >> > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. >> > >> >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O >> >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be >> >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than >> >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. >> >> Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people >> can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). > >Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each >character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is >1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on >one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial >printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more >than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can >make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the >same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely >suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. Results differ. Actualy outputting a full screen to a vt100 at 9600 causes a fair number of input chars (Xon/Xoff buffer management) and printers (la100, LN01, LN03 all have buffers larger than 2k before they assert buffer controls (be they hardware or XON/XOFF). There is a distinct differnce in system performace due to those factors. >I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed >on a DL11, let alone 19200. LSI-11/PDP-11/03 that is tue due to processor speed. By the 11/23B 38.4 works! (I run a TU58 that way) >> For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive >> to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). > >It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. In theory, in the practical world there are systems where idle cycles are a reality. You have to use all of those up first. >> > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can >> > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer >> > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At >> > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that >> > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) >> > >> >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high >> >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar >> >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't >> >much of a problem because it is quite slow. >> >> Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) >> and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer >> the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). > >Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at >high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not >many does these days. Note the bursty loads were felt worse (incresed delays) when the baud rate was medium (below 4800). Too much "barely thinking" inbetween interrupts waiting to fill the buffer on the printer. With the LPV11 (same problems as DL only very fast parallel byte transfer ( 20-40,000bytes/S) the driver would push data from its buffer till the printer yelled wait. So the time impact was actually lower. The same driver would push a DL the same way for a LA100 or LN03 as both had big buffers and would take it fast as you could send it (9600!) and then send back XOFF to stem the tide and the system would return from the printer driver. Larger print jobs had a differnt impact but as printer speed increased their buffer sizes helped to absorb that. Keep in mid this was an office system so print jobs were typically 1-4 pages (small). Printing has a different interrupt load then interactive terminals. Interactive terminals keystrokes are slow and screen fills are the real load. Define PDP-11. The family of CPUs and performance varies greatly. For example the 11/44 could not take a TU58 at 9600, (barely at 4800). Yet I run a BA11-VA with 11/23, M8059 ram, DLV11J and MRV11 with a tu58 as boot and mass storage under RT11XM. works fine at 38.4K baud. The only slowness there is waiting for the TU58 to read the directory then seek to the file. >> Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX >> (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). > >Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 >on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Yes but the limiting factor there was not the VAX interfaces but the greater than 3000ft of wire between us and the VAX. ML3-6 to ML1-1 was a long walk! Ex mill rat here! However 750 performance was pretty tepid, the DMF32 was only ok. When we moved up to it a few complained it was slower than the 11/23B but easier to use. Later on the whole mess was solved with multisessioning on LAT and LAT servers. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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DHV (was: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >Subject: Re: RL01 drive select plug and power supply questions > > From: Paul Koning <pkoning at equallogic.com> > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 10:58:55 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > Allison> Yes I do. However for a single user system the load is not > > Allison> an issue. If your running a timeshare system such as RSTS > > Allison> or RSX with more than one user then DHV11 sense as well. > > > >Not true. 9600 baud is 960 interrupts per second, on a character I/O > >device. That's a big number for a PDP-11. Output will be > >significantly less of a burden with a DH type output controller than > >with other types -- even for just one active terminal. > > Depends somewhat on the OS. It dont know about you but most people > can't type much faster than 100WPM (less than 10 chars sec). Um, that's irrelevant. A DH type controller also interrupt on each character input. It's output that differs. And filling a full screen is 1920 characters, which at 9600 bps will take about 2 seconds. Do that on one terminal will the system will definitely notice. If you have a serial printer of some speed (such as an LN03) we're talking about a lot more than about 2k of data sometimes. So even with a single user system, it can make a big impact. And of course, if you have anything else running at the same time, it will make it even worse. Multi-user systems definitely suffer if you use DL11 controllers for users. It's more or less a no-no. I'm not even sure you can drive one single line at 9600 bps at full speed on a DL11, let alone 19200. > For RT11 it's mostly unimportant. For unix (the most sensitive > to interrupt loading you _may_ care as a single user). It matters for both, as I've pointed out above. > > Allison> For most of my 11s four lines is the limit for what I can > > Allison> seem to keep busy. Figure a user terminal, LA100 Printer > > Allison> and serial line for modem or data line to another system. At > > Allison> the extreme I've run two terminals for OSs that support that > > Allison> but, I can only type on on at any instant. ;) > > > >Sure, if you're mostly doing editing, then the CPU burden of high > >speed output may not be obvious. If you had an LN03 or similar > >printer, you might see it more easily. An LA100, of course, isn't > >much of a problem because it is quite slow. > > Actually printers are a bursty load (fill the buffer and go away) > and I've found that in practice the faster you fill the buffer > the better (high line rates or use a parallel interface). Yes, and that burst will drop a PDP-11 to it's knees if it's on a DL11 at high speed. Sure, if you're running 2400 bps then you'll live. But not many does these days. > Performance was good enough that we used that over the VAX > (line lengths limited us to 2400baud in our part of the mill). Yes, interrupt performance on the VAX was not pretty. One or two DZ11 on a VAX-11/750 would kill it. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 7 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> wrote: > >Subject: Re: Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A) > > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> > > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:06:20 +0200 (CEST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> You may or may not have an RL boot PROM in your KM8AA, but if you > >> don't, you can always key in the RL bootstrap by hand. > > > >I'm not even sure they exist. Anyone have boot roms for RL? > > There must be as DEC sold 8As and RL02s as multi user WPS systems > (wps200 comes to mind). Good point! > No idea what the underlying OS for WPS was. There wasn't any. WPS is self contained. I have a RX01 floppy with WPS-8 somewhere... I've even booted it on one 8/A here. Works fine. :-) Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 7 months

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Wondering which OS to use (PDP-8/A)

by bqt＠Update.UU.SE

On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote: > However, it won't be much for the original question on this thread, as > Multos don't support the RL8A either... I'll correct myself. Multos does support the RL8A, as I discovered when I checked the sources after I posted. However, they appear to only have used RL01s. So I don't know how it will behave with an RL02. (When I played with it last, I only used RK05). Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

20 years, 7 months

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IRIS 2400/ SMPSU questions

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Turns out the second bit wasn't a varistor, but a disk cap (.1mfd/50v) I'm now trying to figure out what happened. It seems rational that the paper cap blew first, but from there I'm not sure. It seems a bit bizarre that two caps blew at the same time. The paper cap was wired between the primary of a transformer and a large power resistor that connected to (ground? the other side of the primary, anyway, and whatever that went to). The second problem area was from the secondary of the same transformer. 4 leads run to a stud rectifier bridge, and across each stud there is a .1mfd/50v disk cap dumping into a 3.3ohm 2-watt resistor connected to the other side of the rectifier. This resistor burnt up. The only options I could think of was that the demise of the primary cap set up a oscillation of sufficiently high frequency that the reactance of the .1mfd cap was sufficiently low that enough current went through to overload the resistor, or (2) 2 capacitors went on the fritz, and on the second one the shorting whiskers burnt away without blowing the cap because of the load resistor, which smoked instead, or (c) some bizarre transient appeared on that winding that blew the 50v dielectric and was blocked by the final output choke so that it didn't blow the final 7.5v electrolytic filter caps. And now for the question- I have new caps/resistor- should I look anywhere else for problems before I plug everything back together? None of my theories sound really convincing, and I don't want to blow anything else in this machine.

20 years, 7 months

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OT: Re: audio insanity

by mtapley＠swri.edu

At 12:00 -0500 10/21/05, Roger wrote: >What would $550 *actually get you*??? Perspiring minds wanna know! I assume it *very very cleanly* conducts the noise from your power outlet to your amplifier. Ya know the face I'd like to see? Take somebody that just bought one of those cables outside his house, point up at the power line coming to his house, then whip out an AM portable, scan down the spectrum, and let him know that *all of that* was hitting his socket, and being transmitted with extreme fidelity across his $550 power cable to his power supply. That's the face I'd like to see. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995

20 years, 7 months

7
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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Character Generator ROM data > From: cswiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 22:40:35 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Fri, 21 Oct 2005, Allison wrote: > >> > >> > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> >> >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >> >> Is simple. Find a pattern you like in row or colum scan and convert the >> bit pattern to a string of hex values and cook an Eprom/EEPROM. >> > >Ok - Just probing for any existing rom dump files that might be out >there w/o having to type a bunch of stuff in ;)) I've an opportunity >to put a message in an unusual place. > >--Chuck Dont have any on line myself. However I've done it by hand and it's not bad. Actually you can do a cleaner set without all the fluff or with needed chars. One thing, the Eprom or EEprom needs to be adaquately fast. Not a big problen with moderm parts but the old 2716 and 2732 were a tad slow. The search string was a first try thing. So you may start with that and tweek if for what you want. I'd be surprized if there isn't something out there. Allison

20 years, 7 months

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Character Generator ROM data

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Chuck, Did a quick Google on "character generator roms" and this was the third hit. http://www.atariarchives.org/cgp/Ch02_Sec04.php Hope it helps. Allison > >Subject: Character Generator ROM data > From: Chuck Swiger <cswiger at widomaker.com> > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 21:47:44 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Gang - > > Anybody know of readily available data for, say, 7x9 dot-matrix characters? >I'm looking for a downloadable rom image for something like in old video >cards to >paint ascii characters on a display. > >For example, my Polymorphic Systems Video Terminal Interface (VTI) card uses >an MCM6571A (or it could use a 6574) -BUT- I do not need exactly that >font - any 7x9 data will work. Spent the past hour trying terms in >google w/o >anything usable turning up. > > >******* ***** * > * * * * > * * * * > * * ****** > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * * * * > * ***** * * > >--Chuck

20 years, 7 months

2
1
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Houston 595/695 Plotter manual

by dm561＠torfree.net

Anybody need/want a manual for one of these? mike

20 years, 7 months

1
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lost all my phone numbers :\

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Today I hit the wrong recessed button (of two) on my pdaphone.... goodbye all phone numbers, email addresses, etc. My business contacts are easy to replace, but my classiccmp info isn't :\ Many of you here I had home phone numbers and/or cellphone numbers, etc. Not anymore. So, if you are sorry you ever gave me your number(s), just ignore this email. Otherwise, email me your contact info OFFLIST please. This isn't a solicitation for phone numbers I never had...just those here who I already had the info for. Thanks! Jay West

20 years, 7 months

5
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Message for Jay West

by ISC277＠CLCILLINOIS.EDU

Hi Everyone, I've been trying to give Jay a link to my PDP11 board, but haven't heard back from him. When I spoke to him in person, he asked I resend him the link, and I have several times and haven't heard back so I figured my mail was getting filtered. Anyway, sorry to spam the list with this, but I couldn't think of any other way to get ahold of him. Jay, that address is http://pdpusers.dyndns.org - title is "PDP-11 User Community" (as I'll be working to get more than just a message board up on it soon) Sorry everyone. Thanks Jay! Julian

20 years, 7 months

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test-drb October 2005