test-drb June 2004

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

281 participants
616 discussions

not HARD SECTORS on a PC (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

>Sorry for the misinterpretation. >"read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . >then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" >is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. >... and since you inquired in terms of transferring >OS, it implied that the target system was NOT bootable/suitable >for file transfer. [Repeated 1/2 dozen times] Perhaps I should repost my question regarding DCOM (the N* OS means of accessing the disk) 1/2 dozen times! As for "transferring OS" - perhaps if YOU had READ that I was interested in transferring CP/M - and was asking about N* disk system calls.... [Shall I repeat that 1/2 dozen times] Do you have any clairification on my original questions regarding the N* DCOM call when used with double density? Don't bother - I already know your answers(s) - and It doesn't look like meaningful discussion will be forthcoming. Cheers, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years

HARD SECTORS on a PC? (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

At 11:40 29/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double >> density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located >> someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to >> move it. >> My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read >> the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and >> then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated >> by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette >> (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a >> time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of >> an single, double or mixed mode disk. > >Single/double density is TRIVIAL compared to the fun that you are >about to embark on with trying to read and write HARD SECTORED >diskettes with a PC! Nobody said anything about reading/writing hard sectored disks on the PC - both parties have a functional N* system - I've already written software to transfer images to/from the my Altair running the N* single-density controller, (same images work under my emulator) and the PC via serial transfer - all I want to do is to update that to support double density - that way both of them can upload/download images to/from the PC, however I don't have the DD controller to test with, hence my request for some clairification regarding some of the finer points which are not explicit in the documentation - basically I have to send it to one of the other involved parties to get them to test it, so I would like to eliminate the variables as much as possible. I've already written a utility which allows me to take a binary N* executable, and transfer it into a N* system by essentially "typeing it" into the N* monitor (which all N* systems have) via the serial port. So - by sending this utility, and a binary of the disk transfer to both parties - they can both move the transfer program unto a n* disk, then use that to read/write diskette images to/from the PC via serial transfer. >Have you considered the possibility of using the Northstar that >HAS the software to make a duplicate copy, and then physically >transporting the duplicate diskette to the machine that needs it? >Snail mail will get it there eventually. Yeah - but that doesn't make it any easier in the future, and it's complicated and slowed by the fact that 10 sector disks are in short supply - the guy making the copy is in the States, and doesn't have any disks to spare. I and the guy needing the copy are in Canada - so for the snail mail technique, I first have to send diskettes to the States (and he has to import them through customs), then he has to send them back to me (and I have to import them through customers). Alternately, I could send him a ZIP containing two PC programs and a N* binary. He uses the first one to put the binary onto his system, then the second one in conjunction with that binary to read the disk images into PC files, which he ZIP's and sends to me). Next time - 1/2 the work is done, and it becomes even simpler. >If BOTH Northstars were to be functional (with system software), >then you could read the disk on the N*, and transfer it through >a serial port. Either directly, or with some PCs and internet >in between. But that won't work if the target N* doesn't already >have a boot disk/system software. Uh yeah (what a good idea :-) - but to do this, I need to understand the details of the double-density use of the N* DCOM function (OS low level disk acccess call) - which is what I asked about (please read earlier post). >> I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system > >Then you must be aware of the HARD SECTORED nature. >When you become familiar with the PC floppy disk controller, >you will find that it is somewhat unwilling to deal with >HARD SECTORED formats. And what makes you think I am not familier the the PC controller (having designed and implemented several 756 based controllers from scratch) - the PeeCee controller has nothing to do with this, which is why I was asking about the N* DCOM function (part of the N* DOS servies, which would be booted on a N* system using the N* disk controller, and are used to read/wrote diskettes using the NORTH START controller). I don't think I mentioned the PC disk controller in my posting. Granted - I did not explicitly say I was doing a serial link, however that is not what I asked about (I have all the info and experience I need to do serial transfers) - I asked about the N* DCOM call, which should have been enough to let you know that what I am trying to do is read/write the disks via the N* DCOM call (ie: N* OS). Refer to my original posting to see that there are a couple of non-obvious things which I'd like to know without having to "try it" remotely a whole bunch of times. >Of course, you COULD build, from scratch, an auxiliary >floppy disk controller for the PC that accepts HARD >SECTORED diskettes. In fact, MicroSolutions once made >one! NO, it is NOT the "Compaticard"!! >The COpyII option board could be modified to do it, >or you could write software to use a CatWeasel. Got an option board - but why bother - both parties have a running N* horizon with DD controller - ie: hardware already exists to read/write the disks. >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com I'll say - did you have an answer to my original questions? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years

VCF East, ASR33 help wanted

by dwight.elvey＠amd.com

Hi When I was in the service, I took apart the older type teletypes ( forget the name but the ones with the type boxes ) by following the teletype manual. I've done some minor disassembly, on the ASR33 that I have now, again by following the steps in the manual. I will not be making it to VCFe, unless someone wants to pay my way. Still, I feel that anyone with some level of mechanical competence can follow the manual and do the needed disassembly, cleaning, lubricating and reassembling of one of these units. The ASR33 doesn't need to be disassembled to the smallest screw, just separating the major units. There are a number of places that one needs to set things to specific measurements. For the most part, it is not necessary to undo these setting in order to get the machine apart enough to clean or inspect for bent or broken parts. One should have a set of feeler gages, preferably the wire type, to check that something hasn't slipped. I suspect that Bill's problem is just cleaning and relubricating. When we were in the service, we completely immersed the unit, less the platen, in a cleaner. Since that isn't practical, I'd recommend using something like BrakeClean to remove old oil and grit. This needs to be used in a well ventilated area and the person should wear eye shields. One should try to not have skin contact but this is not as serious because only small amounts are absorbed. It will dry the skin that can cause the skin to crack and bleed. Use oil liberally. We actually used a sprayer in an air hood( don't breath oil particles. This can quickly cause death as anyone that does scuba diving can tell you ). Dwight >From: "Ashley Carder" <wacarder(a)usit.net> > >I was thinking the same thing. I heard mention of the word "expert" >earlier, >but I have not seen anyone step forward and admit to being one of those. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink(a)verizon.net> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ><cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:54 PM >Subject: RE: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > > >> David V. Corbin wrote: >> > An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring >> >> The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all >> those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the >> "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my >> back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. > > >

21 years

Need Sritek Baseboard (for NS16032 add-on) ...

by bernd＠kopriva.de

I'm the owner of a small NS16032 board, which has to be used together with an ISA baseboard. That stuff has been manufactured by Sritek. There were versions available with 680xx add-ons and NS16032 add-ons (which could be interchanged), and maybe some others ... I want to revive that board, so i'm in need of the baseboard ... ... can anyone help me with this ? Software and/or documentation for the board (either MC680xx or NS16032) is appreciated too ! Thanks alot Bernd

21 years

NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function

by dave04a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to move it. My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of an single, double or mixed mode disk. I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system running one), however I have never owned the DD controller. The N* software manual fairly consistantly refers to SECTORS as either 256 or 512 byte depending on density, and FILE BLOCKS as 256 bytes - there are two file blocks to physical sector on the DD controller. My question is this: On page4 H-1 of the NorthStar System Software Manual, the DCOM (Disk Command) subroutine is documented to have these parameters: ACC=NUMBER OF BLOCKS B=COMMAND(0=WRITE, 1=READ, 2=VERIFY, -1=SING-INIT -2=DBL-INIT) C=UNIT NUMBER, Bit7=DOUBLE DENSITY BIT DE=STARTING RAM ADRESS HL=STARTING DISK ADDRESS My concern is that ACC indicates BLOCKS, not SECTORS - does this mean that the DD controller can read/write 1/2 sectors, must always begin on an even block number, or is this a typo and it really refers to 512 byte physical SECTORS. The question also applies to the HL parameter - is this the starting address in 256 byte BLOCKS, or 512 byte SECTORS? I would have assumed that the low-level command would only work on SECTORS, however as noted at the beginning of my message, the manual is fairly consistant elseware to use BLOCKS for 256 byte units, and SECTORS of physical disk units - the use of BLOCKS here would imply 256 byte logical units. This was never an issue on my SD system as BLOCK=SECTOR=256 bytes - both are interchangable. Can anyone with expereience on the N* DD system help clairify this issue? As I do not have a DD system to test on, it would save me considerable time. Thanks, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years

Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ?

by aek＠spies.com

Several things are going on right now. At the same time that we were moving bitsavers to its own machine, script kiddies totally FU spies.com We've been dealing with that (little things like not having mail working for most of the weekend) As soon as bitsavers came on line again, google crawlers started downloading EVERYTHING from multiple IP adrs. There is now bandwidth limiting by host so I'm trying to keep them from consuming all of the bandwidth. FTP for mirroring isn't up yet, I've told Jay that I'll email when it works. Haven't heard any more from Patrick about the mirror he was starting.

21 years

Head Cleaners

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 29, 9:28, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser <spectre(a)floodgap.com> writes: > Cameron> I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only > Cameron> 70% -- look for the 91% solution if you can, since that > Cameron> evapourates more cleanly. > > I'd put it more strongly. > > 70% isopropyl is typically "rubbing alcohol" which has all sorts of > weird stuff in it. That may be nice for skin, but not for disks. Umm, if someone sold me "rubbing alcohol", I'd wonder what was in it. We have a similar issue here (UK) with "surgical spirit" -- goodness only knows what's in that. But if someone sold me "70% isopropyl alcohol" I'd expect it to be an azeotropic micture of IPA and water, and would be entitled to sue him (or have Trading Standards prosecute) if it contained anything else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

21 years

IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

OK, this is driving me nuts. I picked up an SGI Iris Indigo the other day which seems to run quite happily (as seems compulsory with old SGI machines, it did *not* come with a keyboard). I don't however know the root password. I do have another system SCSI disk for which I know the root password, so I can boot with that and the 'new' drive as a secondary disk, then mount and access the new disk's root partition from there. Right, the 'new' machine has IRIX 5.3 installed, and is using shadow passwords. So, first I tried editing the passwd file and just clearing the password field for root's entry (which was just set to 'x', presumably to signify the use of a shadow password), then booting from the 'new' disk with the cleared password. That didn't work - it just gave me an invalid login message. So instead I tried the same, but cleared the encrypted password string in the /etc/shadow file. Still no luck. I've now tried with and without the 'x' present in the passwd file, and with and without the encrypted password string in the shadow file. A few possibilities spring to mind: 1) IRIX 5.3 doesn't allow direct root login on the X console? 2) The system's set up to use some sort of authentication other than /etc/passwd - any pointers for what to look for if so? 3) The system's set to read from a file other then /etc/shadow - no idea where this is set up if so. I did quite a bit of work using newer SGI systems with IRIX 6.5.3 a few years ago, but I'm pretty rusty there - plus I've never seriously used earlier IRIX releases. Oh, anyone have install media for IRIX 4.0.5 and 5.3? (Our first Indigo's running 4.0.5). Be nice to be able to rebuild the machines if/when the OS drives fail! cheers, Jules

21 years

NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function

by melamy＠earthlink.net

Hi Dave, I was checking on this over the weekend and read my N* manual on system software. It is true that you can mix densities on a N* OS disk on a file by file basis (insane in my mind, but...). N* specifically talks about 256 byte blocks and indicates that a DD disk contains 2 blocks per sector. The starting disk address has to be independent of density. There would be no way for the controller to check previous tracks or sectors to make the starting address dependent on previous disk info. I would have to check that specifically when I get home tonight. The CP/M variation is all DD and I am sure would not allow any mixed densities as N* allows in their OS. If you want, have the guy send me a couple of 10 sector disks and I will send him back a 52K and 56K CP/M system disks. All he needs to do is cover postage. By the way, I booted up my N* OS and CP/M over the weekend sucessfully after I recreated the Intel ISIS monitor on my N* chassis. Email me offline for address, etc. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dunfield <dave04a(a)dunfield.com> Sent: Jun 29, 2004 7:51 AM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Subject: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Hi Guys, I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to move it. My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of an single, double or mixed mode disk. I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system running one), however I have never owned the DD controller. The N* software manual fairly consistantly refers to SECTORS as either 256 or 512 byte depending on density, and FILE BLOCKS as 256 bytes - there are two file blocks to physical sector on the DD controller. My question is this: On page4 H-1 of the NorthStar System Software Manual, the DCOM (Disk Command) subroutine is documented to have these parameters: ACC=NUMBER OF BLOCKS B=COMMAND(0=WRITE, 1=READ, 2=VERIFY, -1=SING-INIT -2=DBL-INIT) C=UNIT NUMBER, Bit7=DOUBLE DENSITY BIT DE=STARTING RAM ADRESS HL=STARTING DISK ADDRESS My concern is that ACC indicates BLOCKS, not SECTORS - does this mean that the DD controller can read/write 1/2 sectors, must always begin on an even block number, or is this a typo and it really refers to 512 byte physical SECTORS. The question also applies to the HL parameter - is this the starting address in 256 byte BLOCKS, or 512 byte SECTORS? I would have assumed that the low-level command would only work on SECTORS, however as noted at the beginning of my message, the manual is fairly consistant elseware to use BLOCKS for 256 byte units, and SECTORS of physical disk units - the use of BLOCKS here would imply 256 byte logical units. This was never an issue on my SD system as BLOCK=SECTOR=256 bytes - both are interchangable. Can anyone with expereience on the N* DD system help clairify this issue? As I do not have a DD system to test on, it would save me considerable time. Thanks, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html

21 years

My disaster, your good luck

by vern4wright＠yahoo.com

I lurk here, mostly through the digests, not having time to participate. I'm a lifelong computer man, and one-time CP/M code writer. My new landlord has decreed that we four all decamp out apts (and my workshop), by the end of July. I will not be able to take all my treasures with me - hell, I haven't the vaguest idea where I'll be living, or whether I'll have a workshop. So I must let go many things. Some of them are: a semi-pro wet darkroom (Bessler 23C based) an IMSAI 8080 (with a blank front panel) a Lobo Max 80 (10meg HD, three 8" floppies, 2 5-1/4" floppies) numerous Persci 277 8" dual floppies at least one RS Model 100 probably a couple of Macs various S-100 boxes, cards as you need them terminals, monitors BOOKS - dups from my huge library - espionage, sex, computer, probably other various STUFF, not all computer related, that I can't think of right now. Because I'm in a wheelchair, in San Diego, with little time for this, all stuff must be gotten HERE. NO DELIVERY. I'll haggle on price (for a few moments, but I know the value of everything, and the price too). Significant assistance in making a move will be taken into consideration - packing, lifting and hauling to interim storage, etc. So here's your chance. USE IT, or this stuff will end up in the landfill. I AM SERIOUS!!! Vern Wright vern4wright(a)yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

21 years

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test-drb June 2004