test-drb August 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

295 participants
726 discussions

by steven_j_robertson＠hotmail.com

Thanks Jay :-) SteveRob >From: "Jay West" <jlwest(a)tseinc.com> >Reply-To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Subject: LIST OT RESOLUTION >Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:36:03 -0500 > >Okay, I'm sure some won't like it but here's my response: > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

22 years, 10 months

LIST OT RESOLUTION

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Okay, I'm sure some won't like it but here's my response: Let me say that I have never considered myself the "owner" of this list, just the host. I'm not hinting that I won't "take the bull by the horns", in fact I will. But that is why I've been slow to handle this issue (read: not feeling 'authorized' to deal with it as I see fit). I like to believe the list isn't "owned", it's everyones - obviously that mentality isn't working as of late. I read all the messages with regards to moderating the list. I also think that is a great idea. However, I'm glad that several posters noted the fact that doing so would put more burden on me time-wise when in fact the (utopian) solution is to approach this from the bottom-up, rather than the top-down (ie. people need to be responsible for their own actions). It is with much distaste that I see even my request for keeping things on topic turned into a thread that is exactly the type of thing I was complaining about. Two people (you know who you are) just don't seem to be able to act like adults and excercise one iota of decorum - being instead more concerned with "one-upmanship". I have received a flood of messages demanding the most extreme of actions to deal with both of them. Probably much to everyone's dismay I'm not going to take that particular action today, but only because it would be unfair to do that now given the solution I am going to put into effect. I will start working on an updated FAQ for the list over the weekend, and post it to the list when I'm done. I will also post it to the list monthly, as well as posting it as a gentle reminder (with the subject of the offending diatribe) when things start getting "out of hand". Yes, this makes me feel like a censor, but at this point - so be it. In the FAQ will be an unambiguous, objective, strictly enforced set of guidelines for someone getting unsubscribed from the list. I will take advice from all the recent postings to the list as to what these criteria should be, and strive to mold them into something that is far from subjective. To those who feel that extreme repeated obscenity, personal attacks, or inflamatory off-topic rhetoric is acceptable - take this as your notice; it will not be tolerated anymore, you will be unsubscribed if it continues. Lastly - I ask that THIS post not turn into a long discussion on the list either. If you want to send me suggestions as to what should go into the FAQ (not only as to the unsubscribing criteria but just helpfull information) please send that to me in private email. I'd love as much input as possible. If you want to send your sentiments of agreement and thanks, that is also welcome - in private email. If you feel my handling of this issue is inane and want to rant or attack me personally - you're entitled to that, but please just send it to me in private email. Regards, Jay West

22 years, 10 months

NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation

by mjsnodgr＠rockwellcollins.com

I'd have to agree wholeheartedly. After being gone for a couple days, I've read 5 of the several hundred (mostly OT) classiccmp e-mails, the rest are immediately deleted. I like the list, but due to the sheer volume of OT riff-raff, I"ve been trying to switch to digest mode so I can get a little more work done. Hmmm... So if we became a 95% on topic list... I could still recieve all the wonderfully classic (legitimate) mail throughout the day, and not have to weed through religion (cars) and politics. I like it Mr. Mayor, I like it. - M.S. Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org>@classiccmp.org on 08/22/2001 11:51:07 AM Please respond to classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Sent by: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org cc: Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation Hear, hear!!!! I too have taken to scanning the top line of each message and end up basically deleting them with the decision made in about .2 seconds. I used to read everything but there is just too much garbage to do that anymore with my limited time. I do not favor moderation, but I do favor responsible posting. Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Jay: > > I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea. > There are three things that need to be corrected on this list: > > - off topic volume is way too high > - we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is > obviously intended to offend > - subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when > the topic has drifted > > Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them > on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of > the problem posts. > > I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am > subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least > glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for > messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the > rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have > crowded me out of full participation in the list. > > On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and > has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone > comes up with a question. > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA > Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl(a)cle.ab.com 216-266-6409

22 years, 10 months

'HELLO' on the ENIAC

by jpl15＠panix.com

Someone, perhaps having a little more time (and a lot more skill) than I, might take up a little exercise I thought of while deleti^H^H^H^H^H perusing all the "hello world on modern platforms" thread: There exists a freeware ENIAC emulator for Wintel boxen... I have it on my old machine which is lying dormant in a closet here, so I don't have the URL handy, but Google is your friend in this instance. It might be retro-cool to try coding 'Hello World' on the ENIAC... one could recieve output on the TTY, or, if one were excruciatingly clever, cause it to scroll by on the Mercury Tank Register display CRT. Cheers John

22 years, 10 months

TRS80 help needed

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Aug 22, 17:24, Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > I remember those -- the RML380Z used them. Canon also made a 2/3 drive -- > > a 40/80 switchable > Pete, were those the ones that also had a `touch latch' door on them? > Some of the Otrona Attache's used such drives, but I had no idea that > they were 40/80 switchable! Do you have any jumper information for > them? They actually made two or three models, so yours may not be switchable. I do have the jumper information somewhere, and I'll look for it this evening. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

22 years, 10 months

[laroche@aracor.com: Surplus VAX]

by mrbill＠mrbill.net

Free 11/750; contact him directly please. Bill ----- Forwarded message from Denis LaRoche <laroche(a)aracor.com> ----- Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:26:10 -0700 From: Denis LaRoche <laroche(a)aracor.com> To: mrbill(a)decvax.org Subject: Surplus VAX Hello, Our company has a VAX 11/750 that we want to dispose of. We would like to give it to someone who could use it versus giving it to a scrap dealer. Along with the VAX is a Kennedy model 9401 tape drive with lots of tape, a CSPI minimap Plus 4 array processor and Ramtek video. We consider it a package deal. We are in need of disposing of the system quickly so a quick response will be appreciated. Thanks for the help. Denis LaRoche Purchasing Manager ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill(a)mrbill.net Austin, TX

22 years, 10 months

Curricula ...

by mbbrutman＠magnaspeed.net

This is quite an interesting discussion on computer science curricula. My 2 cents, for what it's worth. I started with BASIC on a PCjr. The coding style was attrocious, and I couldn't make it perform. Such is the tragedy of a strictly interpreted language with a run-time that owns the entire environment. Performance tips for interpreted BASIC actually had you shorten variable names, use literals instead of constant variables, strip comments, and put multiple statements on a line. These are all things we learned to abhor. Early on I figured out the need for speed and structure. I bought Zbasic. That gave me functions, procedures, and it was a compiler, not a wussy interpreter. It also gave me the ability to do inline machine code. Zbasic opened lots of new paths for me. Best of all, I still had to live within the confines of a 64KB code segment. On my bigger programs (a BBS system) I had to use overlays. By the time the BBS project was done, I knew the 8250 UART and RS232 signals, and the Hayes command sent in and out. I had also learned to program really tight. In high school we did Pascal. Pascal gave me pointers, in return for locking me up in a straight-jacket. Pointers were powerful and alluring though. This led to self-study on C. At State University of New York (Oswego) ten years ago, I learned the classics - assembler, Fortran, COBOL, Modula-2, and C. I didn't become proficient at assembler, Fortran or Cobol - I just needed to be aware that they existed, and to understand the school of thought >from which they came. C was the language of choice, because I was interested in networking and operating systems. (Use the right tool for the job.) C++ just started coming out then .. in my last year I dove into that, and picked up a new programming paradigm. (I hate that word.) Professionally I had to learn PL/MP, which was IBM's internal language for programming in the OS on an AS/400. My first job was porting SNA comm code from one dialect of PL/MP to a newer one. Pain is good; it builds character. Then I had to learn to port PL/MP to C, and to do PowerPC assembly - I now owned some interrupt vectors. C and C++ were the languages of choice. We only used assembly when raw performance was necessary, or when we needed to perform voodoo that we could not code using the compiler. (We would often manipulate stack frames and other data structures outside the confines of the compiler.) Good programmers are too expensive and schedules are too tight to do most things in assembler. Only the lowest levels of the OS use assembler, and even then it is a mix of C and assembler. After eight years in the hole, I decided to move up into application space. Java is a much different environment. I've never been so productive when writing code - the runtime and library support are extensive. Java is deceptive though - lots of people can program in Java, but few can do it well. I constantly struggle to guess the performance characteristics of what I am writing; with a C++ program, I could change some listing options and look at the generated assembler. Now I'm kind of blind - I have to the design through very carefully as I write, because I can't see the generated assembly as easily. I don't know how a student with a four year degree can be called a professional programmer. It's only after 17 years of programming (with 10 years of professional experience) that I now consider myself armed and dangerous. I loved taking graduate classes as an older student - it was so easy to crush the competition because of the depth of experience and exposure that I had. ;-) You can get somebody to do Java and VB in four years with a fair level of competence. If you want a professional programmer, those are a different breed. Without the languages background, the OS classes and the compiler classes, it's all a black box. Understanding the black box is key to utilizing it. And I've so much to learn ... I've not forayed into LISP yet. Mike

22 years, 10 months

Disk format for Altair88DSK

by rcini＠optonline.net

Hello, all: Now that I have the terminal support and Altair BASIC running in the Altair32 emulator, I need to get the diskette emulation working. To make sure that I'm getting this right, I need to get the docs on the 88DSK controller. I may have I posted this previously but now I'm at the point of the project where I could use them. Kind soles contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/

22 years, 10 months

NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

My $.02 or less. OT stuff has been interesting at time and sometimes way too far off topic. Too many mee tooo postings. Foul language, so what. It tends to label the user and may be archived somehwere to bit them later. As to politics; if the topic is how Alan Turning was treated while alive its on topic, maybe. If it what the {pick your non favorite) is doing today it's NOT classic and OFF TOPIC. In the end though,... when my mail from here exceeds seventy or more messages a day all usually deleted on sight it's time for me to consider exiting the list as it's no longer useful and far to much work to read and possibly post to. Right now I'm fairly maxed out and doing mail management for that many messages from one source with an added very high noise to signal suggests it's time to pull the plug. I think far to much has been said and the best, easiest and fastest solution is to simply stop replying to OT threads. If by chance a OT thread has some valid content copy it to a new on topic thread and get on with it. Allison

22 years, 10 months

Switching PS for S-100 Computer?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Rich Beaudry <r_beaudry(a)hotmail.com> >I would like to ask if any of you know of an existing, available, commercial >switching power supply that could be used to power an S-100 computer? WHY???? The bus voltages for S100 are UNREGULATED. >I realize I could get a +5V and +/- 12V supply, and just remove the >regulation circuitry on the cards, but given the amount of them that I have, >that gets very labor-intensive, and I'd rather not have to hack out parts of >these cards... Only if its an old LINEAR supply as SMPS designs mostly will not dot it. The S100 power supply is terminally simple. Three transformers {8,16, 16 V AC}, three bridge rectifiers and three caps... thats all folks. FYI there were "improved" S100 supplies that did some preregulation using CVCs or transistors but they are not essential. Allison

22 years, 10 months

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test-drb August 2001