December 2001 - test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> FYI, I think it's a "made up" holiday and just wanted to know > what your thoughts were. The difference between "real" holidays and "made up" Holidays seems to be: if the Holiday was "made up" before you were born, then it's real (like Mother's Day, which was instituted by President Woodrow Wilson); if it was made up in your lifetime, then it's "not real, just made up." January 1 was "made up" into New Years Day by an act of fiat; New Years Day used to be April 1. I believe "Father's Day" was "made up" in the 50s... "President's Day" was "made up" by tightwad businessmen who wanted to combine two Holidays into one. "Washington's Birthday" was made-up into a Holiday by people who wanted to make a big deal out of Washington's Birthday; ditto Lincoln. I hope the pattern is clear... Kwanzaa is as valid a Holiday as any. Regards, -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question

by Robert_Feldman＠jdedwards.com

Last time I had horse meat was with a couple of my professors at the Faculty Club ar Harvard. It was a regular on the menu there. Bob -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:51 AM To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Way OT: Just say no to squirrels & Pascal question <snip> Where on your scale do you put horse meat? The French love it. - don

23 years, 7 months

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MITS 2SIO serial chip?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >would have worked out. I think it might have given the Z80 and edge. Coming up >with a fair and general test might be difficult. I'd liken 6502 VS z80 as one of those depends on what you like things. Both have stood the test of time far better than many others. >The Z80 itself wasn't a bad CPU, but the peripheral set they built for it, with >its compromises in favor of the mode-2 interrupts meant that you couldn't use >wait-states on I/O cycles or on device chip selects to adjust the CPU to the I agree, most designers did too. Look at most Z80 designs out there and it was Z80 with NON-Zilog peripherals. Mode 2 with a little external glue to use with non zilog was a very potent config. >slower peripherals because it had to be looking over the CPU's shoulder to catch >the interrupt acknowledge and the RETI instruction. I've recently worked this >out by switching the clock rate during I/O and during a pending or current >interrupt, but it's still a PAIN! What's more, it seems to require more than >just a PAL. Handshake logic from a 4-bit wide FIFO (16 pins) seems to be the >tool for keeping track of interrupts and their dismissal. :) Me, I dont use slow Zilog peripherals. The last time I used Zilog IO it was the 5330 SCC that ran comfortably at 10mhz with it's own DMA. A TTL implementation of the mode 2 interrupts made for a nice system as it could run fast, though I never bothered with RETI, as that not required and adds much to the logic load. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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How did they string core?

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > It was done by hand I think. Mexico comes to mind. > > Some manfacturers did it by hand, some by machine. IBM had core stringing > machines during the S/360 era, for the huge stacks (about 1' by 4') used > in some of the storage units. They also had cores hand strung in the far > East, as the cheap labor was more economical than the robots. The far east manufacture of core lead to a long-running joke in the old mainframe days... the instance of it I will describe was only one of many... Anyway, when we'd boot the COPE (Harris) 1200 Remote Job Entry Station (a PDP-8 clone), there would be a message that would flash by on the console *very quickly*: HELP! HELP! I'm being held hostage in a Hong Kong Core House! Read this thinking "Mike Hunt" and "Amanda Huggenkiss" if you don't (by some chance) get it... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Is there no end

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Matter of fact AMD was subcontracted at one point to MAKE processors for > Intel, when demands were up and they couldn't meet market requirements - and > many of the AMD made Intel branded chips are better than many of the Intel > ones. I don't remember if it was the 386 era or 486 though. iAPX286 era... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Hardest to Find Classic Computers

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Not likely! Sphere back then was the sloppy introduction and viewed as a grab the money and run, ship nothing operation. I'd say it was one of the first in the Vaproware realm. Many that ordered got skunked as Sphere hit with a splash and really did disappear pretty fast. They were the bad guys right up until the World Power Scam, thats another story. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Michael Nadeau <menadeau(a)mediaone.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers >Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer has a detailed account of the >Sphere's design flaws and other issues, including kits being sent out >incomplete. Veit was a retailer who sold the Sphere when new. Veit stopped >selling the Sphere and admits that the company might have fixed some of the >problems after that. > >Do you remember the issue in which the review that the former owner refers >to appeared? The earliest Sphere coverage in BYTE is positive, almost >fawning. > >Maybe if the Sphere had been on the cover of Popular Electronics instead of >the Altair people would have been more forgiving of its flaws. > >--Mike > >Michael Nadeau >Editorial Services >603-893-2379 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Loboyko Steve" <sloboyko(a)yahoo.com> >To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> >Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 9:22 PM >Subject: Re: Hardest to Find Classic Computers > > >> I stumbled upon a link some time ago belonging to a >> very bitter former owner of Sphere. The gist of his >> article was that Byte Magazine destroyed Sphere with a >> very bad review, and, that most computers of that era >> took some hacking to work anyway (example: the "clock" >> - and I use the term clock charitably - of the >> original Altair 8800). >> >> --- William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> wrote: >> > > Ah yeah. Good pick. That is definitely a rare >> > beast. I've only ever >> > > known one person who had one (I forgot his name, >> > he used to be on the list >> > > a few years ago). He sold it off to someone else >> > and then got out of >> > > collecting computers. >> > >> > Was that me? I have/had three, but they are promised >> > to go out West. One of >> > those deals that seems to be taking a very long >> > time, mostly due to me >> > trying to unearth it all and boxing the stuff up. >> > >> > Anyway, Sphere aparently was one of the early bad >> > guys. The computers they >> > sold (many as kits, I think) basically did not work. >> > Unlike Altair, Sphere >> > was trying to break into the business sector, so >> > there really was not much >> > of an excuse for the crapiness. They all needed a >> > huge number of hacks to >> > get them to function (my favorite is a a few-mH coil >> > made of telephone >> > wire kludged onto one of the oscillators, in order >> > to keep the thing >> > going. Basically, wrap some wire around a pencil, >> > and tack solder it into >> > place, and adjust accordingly). >> > >> > William Donzelli >> > aw288(a)osfn.org >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of >> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com >> or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com >> > >

23 years, 7 months

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Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Actually, I think that's a good suggestion, if you can find someone with > the same ROMs. In my experience, most programmers actually do use the same > algorithm -- one of the common CRCs. At least, all three programmers I > regularly use do, and the checksums match the ones printed on SGI ROMs and > a few other ROMs I have that have printed checksums. Well, they wouldn't compare exactly- the microcode ROM sets are serialized... But when I disconnecte the cabinet airflow sensor, I get an error message displayed that's not in the VCP's Z-80 boot ROM, but is only in the microcode ROMs. Now, whether the Z-80 is retrieving and displaying that message, or the microcode is getting loaded and the Prime CPU is issuing the message, who can tell? -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Possible, of course, but in the case of an Indy, the processor and PSU are > working, and it gets only as far as the "I think, therefore I am a > processor; I wonder if I have any memory" test in the PROM, and then > executes a loop which controls the LED in the PSU if there's no RAM. At > least, that's what I believe; I've not seen a detailed description of the > PROM startup. I suppose your problem may be something similar, in that the > CPU is running but can't do anyting useful because either it's crippled or > some other part of the system is disfuntional. Does the CPU control the > power supply LED(s), like it does in an Indy? Yeah, pretty sure it does... Interestingly, I remove dthe two 4MB boards last night- no difference in bahavior. However, there are message strings in the ROMs dealing with RAM problems... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Johnny Billquist <bqt(a)update.uu.se> >> As has been said before, what do you think manufacturers do at the end of a >> production line? > >They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a >hughe difference. Many did as it was cheaper than the commercial version. >> Be careful about that. Allison's warning about ESD is quite real. Don't >> even think about a feather duster; at least, not if it's a synthetic one. > >ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and >70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI >TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. You can literally zap those >circuits, and they will work just fine. Sorry, not so. DEC did a study in the logistics flow to see why DOA boards were a problem. The reason was ESD even on older PDP-8 and PDP-11 modules. The test and solution was ESD procedures or all modules and the fail rate went down significantly. Seems for TTL while ESD generally didn't kill it it can and did damage the passivation or input protection leading to longer term failures that were chalked up to infant mortality. Characateristics that were often seen degraded were input thresholds, input sink currents, output leakage for open collector and tristate devices. With the rarity and parts availability of older machines a bit of care is warrented if only to reduce troubleshooting time and 90 day failures. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> > PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the > > ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming > > I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if > > they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped > > ROMs... > > What kind of ROMs does it use? Another possibility might be to find > someone with the same model of PR1ME (how rare are they?) and checksum > the ROMs & compare them...most PROM burners will generate checksums, > but now that I think of it, PROM burner manufacturers have yet to > standardize on a checksumming algorithm so it'd probably be useless > unless they're summed with the same make/model of burner. :-( My ROMs are fine; they read OK and I can provoke an error condition that results in a message to the console, and said message string resides in one and only one place- the microcode ROMs. -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> No, I'm afraid you may have hit it on the head, and it's been the > direction I've been leaning, that the microcode ROMs may have > fried, but that just blows my mind. Tonight, I'll set up the > PC that's got my ROM burner/reader, and read each one (if the > ROMs aren't too large a size for my Needham unit). I'm assuming > I'll see all 00s or all FFs (or maybe something like FEs) if > they're blown; been a long time since I've looked at popped > ROMs... Ok, my microcode ROMs are fine, via direct observation (dumped them to disk then ran them through my LOW7 filter to strip the mark parity bit from the Prime ASCII. I also verified the ROMs are OK by managing to provoke the system to issue an error message that resides *only* in those ROMs. > About the only other possibility is that the backplane got > cooked, but it looks fine... There are still some possibilities other than this, the Primes appear to have been way-overengineered w/r/t making sure the power is OK. Thanks for all the suggestions, folks... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Hi, I do cookies. It was something I did years ago{30+} to understand all that stuff. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> {everything about cores} -- Allison > >Thank-You very much for this. What's your consulting rate? > >> thats about it. > >No doubt. > >John A. > > >

23 years, 7 months

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"Geeks" and licensing

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> Jim Arnott wrote: > > > > And what's the difference between an engineering project and Christmas? > > > > None. You do all the work and the fat guy in the suit gets all the credit. > > > > (did I read that here?) > > > > Jim > > And pay too! Well, The Jolly Old Elf has to deal with some less-than-pleasant happening.... the local radio stations have a Christmas song in rotation titled "I Farted on Santa's Lap"... we should be so lucky that the fat cats in suits would have one land on them... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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"Geeks" and licensing

by dhquebbeman＠theestopinalgroup.com

> In practice the solution is to accept the fact that specs, no matter > how much they are labored over, are for most efforts soft, and > then describe mechanism to deal with uncertainty as part of the > development process. Rapid prototype, stepwise refinement, > the understanding that one cannot test their way to correctness and > a willingness to throw at least one implementation completely > away, coupled with small, agile teams that work with an active > user community empirically produce more correct results in less > time that alternative techniques. This all sounds very familiar... > Not like any of this is new. Brooks described this eons ago > in _The Mythical Man Month_... Ah, now I know why... insert <EWOK_WORSHIP_SOUND_EMOTICON> here. I can't tell you how many managers I've wanted to strangle using the prototype code they demanded I push into production... -dq

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> > "Should HTML/inline files be banded from EMAIL?" I ask. > As of late I have turned inline viewing off, with all the > stupid viruses around. My vote: ban 'em. Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end)

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com > >>Gee, a message from an AOL user with no HTML . . . imagine that . . . > harrumph, will wonders ever fuckin cease? Well, gee, no offense, it's just that html messages are a PITA to read with my reader, and most lists and newsgroups frown on HTML posts. > >> Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. > > >Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? > > figure it out yourself, google is around for a reason Google certainly is here for a reason, and I can do a search anytime I like. My reason for asking is that you had stated an opinion, and I was curious to find out more about your stated opinion. Based on the hostility of your reply, I'll assume I was mistaken in asking. Sheesh, man, what are you so pissed off about? This is a friendly list. If you are so afraid of expressing your opinions, may I respectfully suggest that you confine them to alt.flame.niggers, where you will find a lot of other cowards to associate with. FYI, I think it's a "made up" holiday and just wanted to know what your thoughts were. Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>does it have a spell-checker? ROFL... well, I assume it does... and so does the email client I use... I just never use the spell checker... sorry, dyslexia has completely destroyed my ability to spell a damn thing, and I (as well as most everyone I write to) have accepted this fact, so I just don't use spell check as often as I really should. Heck... consider yourself lucky, I only made 3 errors in the last email (Strictly and default x2) But just for you... I spel chekt this emial :-) -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

It takes quite a bit to read one bit (the same amount to read all the bits on one sense line). You need to in order: Select the specific word (or bit) and drive it with the X and Y lines, each will be 50% plus a tiny bit extra current needed to switch a bit. And yes that is a regulated current or wire melting may occur! Typically it's a pulse of several hundred milliamps. Then at the right time after the select pulse is applied you will see a big or smaller pulse on the sense line. the difference between a 1 or 0(zero) is the timing and the height of that pulse. That was the nasty item as both timing of the XY select pulse and the time to the read window are current, temperature and specific to the cores used. The resulting signal is quite small and is measured in tens of millivolts for a core that switched and maybe a millivolt for one that did not. Yes, the sense line does have a lot of noise! To do that again or write a 1/0 you need to reverse or leave the XYselect polarity. The inhibit line (for a 4 wire core mat ) can be the sense line for write (three wire mat). To write the opposite data you select the core via XY with enough current to flip the core, to not write that value you apply enough current of the reversed polarity to the inhibit line to reduce the field(from the XY selects) in the selected core to less than the half select value. The basic operation of reading implicity sets all cores in the word line to the same state. To write (a word) along a word line you reverse the currents and also apply inhibit current on a bit by bit basis. The end result is some cores in the word flip (reverse the magnetic field) and those inhibited do not. Now... if you want simpler try this... Wind about 20 turns of wire on a nail (iron, or better yet steel). Wind another 20 turns. We use a lot of wire to get a BIG signal. Now if you hook a simple 1-3V DC meter to one winding and then hook the other winding to say a 1.5V battery you should see the meter pulse (basic transformer action). If you interupt the connection (off on off) you will see another pulse of differing polarity (needle will go the other way for a moment). Do that a few times to note the reaction and then reverse the battery and repeat. When you do that you will not the meter action indicates a bigger pulse the first time and back to like before if you do it again. Now the majik of core. When you magnitize something like that the nail/washer/core takes a magnetic polarity and holds it. If you reverse that magnetizing field you not only get the field but also the change in magnetic polarity. That change significantly greater. The other peice of majik is that while you didn't measure it in that simple rig the current required to magnetize the nail in the opposite direction is greater than if the magnetic field in the in the nail was random(zero). This is the characteristic called hysteresis, IE: to change a field takes more than the amount needed to maintain or initially estabilish it. I might have fluffed the grammer and spelling in my hurry to write this but, thats about it. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> No need to trace, they are quite regular, you can ohm them. You still >> need core drivers, sense amps and a dozens of diodes for current >> steering. > >We were thinking what could a person do to see the output from >just one core bit, not too much more than that... and then work up >from there. > >John A. >

23 years, 7 months

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Ampro Little Board questions...

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> > A PC floppy cable certainly wouldn't work with the Little Boards I have, since > they use the standard floppy disk cable, which has no twists or cuts. Take a "modern" PC dual-fdd cable and cut off the end which has the twist in it. Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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MITS 2SIO serial chip?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >the "vintage-PC" chipsets were 5 MHz parts, I do believe. That still wasn't >rocket-fast, but it was adequate for the 4.77 MHz i8088. Yes, and NEC and INTEL were selling 8mhz parts before then. The "PC" was slow by contemporary standards. I'd have likend it to building a 2mhz z80 system in 1981, equally poor thing to do. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by CLeyson＠aol.com

>> From: CLeyson(a)aol.com >> Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) > from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. I must have missed your posts on the subject. This geek for one would like to know. Chris Leyson

23 years, 7 months

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[Fwd: Re: Shall I open it, or does someone want it....]

by rhudson＠cnonline.net

Ok! Ok! I goofed - it's 1987, not 1967... There is one small hole in the plastic (1/2" round tear) There is an Epyx Catalog included as a supplement. (of course all the blow in cards are inside there too) Keith Johnson wrote: >> I have December 1967 inCider, > > > That *would* be an interesting read. Maybe it has a spread on the Univac? > > :P > > Keifer

23 years, 7 months

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Shall I open it, or does someone want it....

by rhudson＠cnonline.net

Ok! Ok! I goofed - it's 1987, not 1967... There is one small hole in the plastic (1/2" round tear) There is an Epyx Catalog included as a supplement. (of course all the blow in cards are inside there too) Keith Johnson wrote: >> I have December 1967 inCider, > > > That *would* be an interesting read. Maybe it has a spread on the Univac? > > :P > > Keifer

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>> Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( > >Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) >from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. The latest version of the AOL client for windows no longer offers a way to turn of HTML email. HOWEVER, as long as you use STRICKTLY the defualt AOL email text settings, and NEVER do any kind of formatting, then AOL will still send plain text and not an inline HTML message. If you have changed the default settings, you can reset them. Somewhere in the AOL prefs is a button to reset them to defualt values. -chris <http://www.mythtech.net>

23 years, 7 months

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Is there no end

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 16, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > > > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? > > It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. > > No, you've already over-filled your Cray quota; you should have to give > one of those away (like say, the EL98, to me..) before you can acquire > any more "big balls" hardware. 8-) Ahh, you THINK so. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 16, Bill Bradford wrote: > > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk > > of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some > > nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too > > high in my opinion. > > I've still got these two UNIBUS core planes (H215), but they're probably > better suited for use in a DEC system instead of being deconstructed. Yes...I will *not* deconstruct DEC core, unless it's nonfunctional and unrepairable. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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"Geeks" and licensing

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > > Well, most of us (except for Tony) have areas that we are not expert in, or > > Whereas I'm not an expert in any area, right??? Wrong. Accept a complement, okay? ;>) > I am strongly of the opinion that you can't teach creativity. And thus > you can't teach somebody to be a good programmer or a good electronic > designer. Yes, there are things that such people need to know (and those > can be taught, but equally good programmer/designers tend to be > interested enough to teach themselves a lot of it). OTOH, methodology certainly *can* be taught. Unfortunately, though, either it isn't being taught, or the student just doesn't "get it." Some of the crap I've seen which was written by CS degree-holders has been truly mind-boggling due to a complete lack of structure or logic in the code. > So I don't think there's _any_ correlation (or at most a very weak one) > between qualifications and ability as a programmer/designer. Agreed, absolutely. > > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . > > I don't think so. I've seen enough 'qualified' people who I'd not trust > anywhere near anything I owned. I've also met a few totally unqualified > people who I'd be happy handing a toolkit to and letting them loose in my > workshop, knowing that they'd do no real damage. > > And 'licenses' almost always come from 'qualifications' :-( A test-based license is what I had in mind, but this raises all kinds of problems (such as who designs and administers the exam, etc.) so in the end it is probably better that the practitioners of the craft do the "weeding out" themselves. Personally, I'm glad to out of programming professionally, although it remains a favorite hobby of mine. I just got so tired of having to explain the difference between a "string" and a "character array" to some of these folks . . . over and over . . . I could tell stories you probably wouldn't believe, but the memory of them is causing me to lose my lunch so I think I'd better just log off . . . Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 16, ajp166 wrote: > The older large ferrite core is easier to work with though > much slower. The bigger cores produce a larger output > when they switch but the cycle times are in the > 3-5uS range. The later is helpful for demos as nothing > is too fast. I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) to use a microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core controller. Use the A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense stuff, and do all the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too high in my opinion. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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Is there no end

by mythtech＠Mac.com

>Well, I suppose every chip must aspire to mediocrity. :-P Ok... I guess it took another Mac user to see my point. I didn't doubt for a moment that the AMD chip was fully compatible with any other Intel compat OS or software... just that it was REALLY REALLY sad that they had to stamp it with windows propaganda as if windows was the only thing out there that mattered. -c

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] PDP-8/A limited function panel wiring?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Dec 16, 14:58, Gunther Schadow wrote: > However, there are a few more issues to resolve first. The > little 16-pole ribbon cable that has DIL chip-like plug on > both ends that go into a chip-socket. That plug is bent and > pins are broken off. Seems like that happnes all the time. > Do I have to and if so how can I replace this? This cable > runs between the backplane and, I guess, the limited function > front panel. Assuming you can afford to shorten the length of the cable by the amount you'd lose by cutting off the DIL plug, it shouldn't be too hard. You can buy 16-pin IDC DIL plugs quite easily. The quick-and-dirty way to crimp one onto the cable is to take a piece of wood (metal is better but much more work) and shave it so it fits neatly between the pins, and then shave it down so it's the same depth as the pins are long. Place the cable in the plug, insert the whole lot in a smal vice and gently tighten it up. The piece of wood will prevent the pins from bending while you do this. > Do I need this, is the limited function front panel needed > at all? What's the function of the 16 lines, I assume I don't know. If you'd asked this a week or two ago, I might have been able to look it up in the PDP-8/A handbook I had on loan, but I've returned it. :-( I think you do need some of the switches, but I'm not sure. Have you looked at the print sets on some of the PDP-8 websites? David Gesswein's page at http://www.pdp8.net/query_docs/query_all.html is a good place to start. More specifically, follow the link labelled "244" from there, then "245" and you'll be able to download a 1-page diagram of the Limited Function Board. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 7 months

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OK all you applesoft experts out there

by rhudson＠cnonline.net

How can I detect end of file while reading a text file? 10 print chr$(4)"Open mytextfile" 20 print chr$(4)"read mytextfile" 30 input a$ 40 rem process process process 50 if what who how then 30 60 print chr$(4)"close mytextfile" hep me please! (trying to write a dumb line editor)

23 years, 7 months

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Looking for a grundy NEWBRAIN

by GCarling＠aol.com

I have two NewBrain MD computers with all cables and software including bespoke Word Processor and Database. Two Data Recorders are also included. In addition I have a pair of different 5.25" disk drives in a single unit with the drive controller to fit to the underside of the computer. None of the equipment has been used for some time, but is packed in original boxes and complete with instruction booklets. Would be prepared to discuss offers. Area -- North East UK Graham C Website: grahamcarling.com

23 years, 7 months

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irc

by Golemancd＠aol.com

anyone know the irc channel by any chance jooe

23 years, 7 months

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was "how to clean".. How did they string cores

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 12/16/01 2:54:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, rhudson(a)cnonline.net writes: > > Did a person string those cores with a needle and > "thread", or was it done by machine? > > My stepmother worked for Hughes Aircraft in LA assembling core memory by hand under a microscope. She was making 4X4 panels IIRC. This had to be in the 1960s I bet. Paxton Astoria, OR

23 years, 7 months

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Troll got me (was Re: Is there no end)

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com Gee, a message from an AOL user with no HTML . . . imagine that . . . > Kwanzaa is NOT a real holiday. Okay, I'll bite: why isn't it? Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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"Geeks" and licensing

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 15, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, perhaps the reason for all the meetings and other work you find > uninteresting is that it's necessary to arrive at a firm specification for what > you have to build before you go off and build it. Since the coding, compiling, > and debugging only represent about 5% of the task, the bulk of the work has to > happen sometime, and that's what the "other" stuff is. Some documentation and speficiation has to happen, sure. But most of the industry seems to have lost sight of the fact that these are *overhead tasks* that are secondary to the job of *building something*. It gives suits a reason to take home a paycheck...they can shuffle paperwork and Powerpoint bullshit all they want; it rarely contributes to the finish product. It's not an issue of my finding it "uninteresting"...I write code. That's what I do best. If I'm doing something other than writing code, I'm likely wasting my time...or worse, someone else's...because if I'm not writing code I'm probaby doing something I'm not particularly good at. I'm not trying to be argumentative here...though it may sound that way, please don't take it as such. Again I will qualify my statements as pertaining to sub-million-line development projects, not huge multi-million line behemoths. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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Is there no end

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 16, UberTechnoid(a)home.com wrote: > Remember the (iirc) Compaq ad. Thier 286 had a meg of static ram onboard. > The ad depicted an empty desk with two tire tracks burt into it and a > surprised user behind. Static RAM? Are you sure? I've never heard of static RAM in a PeeCee. That's neat. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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Ampro Little Board questions...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> >belongs with it. Does anyone have a Series 100 box that could give me >the measurements and connector orientation & location of the floppy >cable? Nothing magic. the last one I had used was from a PC. >Secondly, I don't know what "brand" SCSI controller is built into the >board. The SCSI chip seems to be an NCR 5830, but that leads me nowhere >in relation to whether or not it's an Adaptec or other model controller. >I need to know the brand because the hd formatting software needs to >know it. Your applying PC logic to it. It's is not Adaptec, i'ts just SCSI (SCS1 or II) host and the NCR5380 is one of the early and common chips used for that. The brand applies to the "other" board, what is known as a SCSI bridge board. Adaptec, Xybec, WD and other made them. You need to know what board and what drive to do the formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, or the rest will be unused). Allison

23 years, 7 months

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Arrrgh!! Piecemeal auction!

by bpope＠wordstock.com

People on here have talked about people on eBay taking a perfectly good working machine and selling it off piece by piece but this takes the capacitor screwdriver, soldering iron and sucker.... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1309283581 This person? is selling 40 little plastic thingies that go under a key on the Commodore 128's keyboard along with a spring!!! Bryan Excuse while I go bang my head against a wall... Did you know if you do that for an hour you burn 150 calories?

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: CLeyson(a)aol.com > Thanks to AOL I can't turn this feature off :-( Yes, you can! I have posted numerous messages to this list (and others) >from an AOL account in the past and never sent anything but plain text. Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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Should engineers be licensed (Was "Geeks")

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> There's a big difference between writing code to solve problems and being > a software engineer. Designing, coding, and compiling is only 40% of the > battle. Hopefully you're also spending some time planning and testing. To me planning and testing are such obviously important parts of any development process that I didn't mention them in my original post, assuming (I hope correctly) that most everyone on this list is as old-fashioned as I am ;>) > We recently interviewed an electronics engineering graduate who didn't know > the difference between NPN and PNP transistors !! What do they teach kids > these days ?? I repeat, the "faculty" of the "institution" which issued this fellow a degree should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail. Glen 0/0

23 years, 7 months

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Ampro Little Board questions...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> >What is so bloody difficult about this? It's not like I'm asking >questions about quantum mechanics or something. Keerist. No one knows or has seen one. >I had two questions. The one about the SCSI interface has been answered >to my satisfaction. The second however is not only the easiest of the >two, but seeming the most difficult to answer. Seriously it's been about 14 years since I've seen one. It's length was long enough to reach with neat folds. Don't know the exact number of inches. However that FDC controller worked fine with 24 inches of cable for another project. >If you happen to own a Series 100 box, I'd be most appriciative if you'd >open it up and let me know what you find out about the cable. If you >_don't_ own one of these things, I don't want to hear from you. Period. I bet you dont turn up many Series 100 boxes. >I know how to build my own cables. I know what connectors are required. >(I even have a purpose built connector compression tool!) I'm trying to >restore this machine to _factory_ condition. Smart ass comments about >making my own cables (while simultaneously alluding that I don't know >what the fsck I'm doing) is not only not wanted, but just pisses me off. >If I'd wanted to make a generic, "will do the job" cable, I wouldn't >have asked about the original one! The Ampro cab was not common as most bought the dry board being cheaper and use whatever package was handy or one that met their spec. Even my Ampro LB manuals do not specify a length! >FYI, the machine is built for CP/M. It runs CP/M quite happily. Even >with ZCPR3. We know that too. I run on here. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> >I know that. That is why the early memory chips had separate in/out pins >to emulate core memory. Everything nowadays tends to be 8 bits with >tri-state That might have been a factor but not a requirement. The reason back then was it simplified the timing and construction of the chip. >I/O ( Grumbles here as he has a 12 bit computer and has to waste 4 bits >out of 16 ) >BTW - some say the best way to cook a fish is in the dishwasher. Use four bit wide cache parts then. Or if it's EPROM do three bytes wide and select the odd(right 12 bits) or even half(left 12bits). There are other schemes to reuse loose bits! Allison

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

-----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca> > >After reading the core memory stuff I realized the what I was thinking >about was dynamic memory (16k chips) for a 2 mhz 8080 in byte. The >reason >I got confused was it used the split memory cycle read-write as core >memory. Core is one of the few destructive readout memories used. So every read has a following write to restore the data, often between data read there will be a modify cycle which means new data written back. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

Suggestion, Pict the articles on the basic of historic design point like the Core article or some significant hardware or software. Usually that kind of article was a feature. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain <allain(a)panix.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, December 16, 2001 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher? >> Unfortunately these scans aren't from *my* bytes...my collection >> doesn't go back that far, as I was 7 years old in 1976...so I can't go >> scan more of 'em. :-( > >I guess I can pony up and put at least one jpegged BYTE article up >for people to see, perhaps one a month. I have no great ideas on >how to pick the titles, however. Some kind of democratic thing? > >John A. > >

23 years, 7 months

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Ampro Little Board questions...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> >I'm curious about something here ... Was this particular system ever observed to >run as configured? I've never owned a prepackaged AMPRO box/system, so I have >no experience with them on which to base any guesses. With a SCSI drive and no >bridge, the thing should either run or not, though, and if it doesn't there's >probably a good reason. Over the years I've seen two and added hard disks to them (purchased without). If you have the right controller and drive it's an assemble the peices project. Those included some of the early SCSI drives. >I'm not in a good situation to help you out with this, at the moment, but I >could send you a bridge controller of the sort that the firmware is supposed to >recognize on its own. With that you can test the Little Board side of things. >The Little Board supports the Xebec controller as well as a number of models >from OMTI, ADAPTEC, and others. You'd have to attach an ST506/412-interfaced >drive that works properly at the other end, though. The Adaptec models I've got >are capable of either RLL or MFM, depending on which model you use and, of If you match the known configs it's pretty straightforward, if not you need to go into the bios and set up the config by hand. The latter is a bit less obvious as the Ampro BIOS for hard disk was done in three layers, one for the physical SCSI driver, then the SCSI protocal for the controller target and then hard disk interface. There are several added tables not normally seen in a CP/M bios. Those tables allow for things like assigning logical unit 3 (whatever it may be) as drive A:. As BIOS for CP/M go it's very sophisticated. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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Ampro Little Board questions...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

>> > From: Gene Buckle <geneb(a)deltasoft.com> >> Funny, the Ampro docs list all these various controllers and whatnot. >> The software also _asks_ what controller it is going to talk to. The >> SCSI controller is part of the LB. What would the software consider the >> onboard controller to be? NCR5380! But that's half the picture. The other half is the SCSI controller on the other end of the cable. What I meant by PC logic is that in PCs you plug in an adaptec controller or whoever and you need a driver specific to that controller. The AMPRO-LB has the onboard NCR5380 which is the controller and the software specific to that is in both the bootrom and CP/M bios. The other peice of that that does not conform to the PC standard is the other end of the 50pin SCSI cable is the "drive" and back then the drive was MFM (ST225 typically) with a Bridge adaptor to go >from SCSI to MFM and that could be done with a board made by Xybec, Adaptec or Western Digital. Now, those bridge boards did not behave exactly the same like modern SCSI drives so the "driver" had an install/init that tweeked the CP/M bios to conform as well as partition the disk for CP/M use. The CP/M Bios (and bootrom for that fact) do not query the drive for it's config like PCs. It must be hard coded into tables in the bios. The bridge controllers require this info to be pushed into them before they can access the physical drive. This is in contrast to SCSI drives that have the tables integral to themselves. FYI: CP/M supported only 8mb per logical drive so a ST225(20mb) was usually partitioned into three logical drives (for ampro that would be A, C and D). Drive B is reserved for floppy as is pseudo drive E. Drive A(physical drive 0) is always the bootable drive and can be either floppy or hard disk. The tables for logicla drives are limited to 16 logical drives (A through P) by CP/M itself and if memory serves only 10 logical hard disk partitions in the Ampro HD CP/M bios. So any drive larger than 80mb cannot be fully accessed. There are ways around the latter problem but that's a different issue. >What hard-drive are you using? If it is a SCSI drive? Is it set to >ID=0? If so, choose either Seagate or Maxtor and give that a try. I used a 45mb fujitsu. The boot roms expect it to be ID=0. >> > formatting. If you dont mind hacking Z80 code you can go frm >> > an AMPRO LB with SCSI to a smaller SCSI drive (64mb or less, >> > or the rest will be unused). >> >> I've got a 20MB SCSI drive I'm trying to use. The bootrom rev tells me >> that it's got support for the SCSI controller. What coding has to be >> done? CP/M bios which is not the boot rom. The reason for that is the Drive tables and the controller tables in the install(HDINIT) and format(HDFMT) will not work for all but a limited subset of possible drive/controller setups. The only SCSI drive directly supported was the ST157N and maybe the ST296N might work. >If you have the proper version of the HD Utilities, you should not need >to do any. > - don Only if you have a supported controller and drive, otherwise they do not help you much. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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Burroughs - any information?

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 14, Chad Fernandez wrote: > The Post Office still uses Unisys stuff, although, I think they may be > switching to IBM. I saw the Portage (next city over) PO had new looking > IBM stuff a few weeks back. > > Unisys had/has a govt. division of the company. The post office in Beltsville, MD just switched over to that Unisys stuff maybe 2 years ago... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> >> Not likely as the sense voltages are quite small and the slice time >> has to just right. > > Well I wouldn't expect to connect it *directly* to the PIC...some >analog jellybeans would seem appropriate. Look at the byte article and see why something like a PIC adds little to the task. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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[PDP8-Lovers] how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> I wonder if it would be possible (and practical) to use a >microcontroller, perhaps a PIC, to act as a core controller. Use the >A/D and D/A hardware to handle the drive and sense stuff, and do all >the timing in firmware...making it easily tweakable. Not likely as the sense voltages are quite small and the slice time has to just right. > That would be something I'd be up for trying...if I can find a chunk >of core of low enough density to trace the wiring in. There are some >nice low-density planes on eBay right now, but they are priced WAY too >high in my opinion. No need to trace, they are quite regular, you can ohm them. You still need core drivers, sense amps and a dozens of diodes for current steering. Allison

23 years, 7 months

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test-drb December 2001