test-drb December 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

243 participants
1096 discussions

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Douglas Quebbeman <dhquebbeman(a)theestopinalgroup.com> > The difference between "real" holidays and "made up" Holidays > seems to be: if the Holiday was "made up" before you were born, > then it's real (like Mother's Day, which was instituted by > President Woodrow Wilson); if it was made up in your lifetime, > then it's "not real, just made up." I based my statement upon information gleaned from conversations with my customers, 80% of which are black. Most of them think that Kwanzaa was "made up" by retailers in order to get their money. Some have told me that they resent the "social engineering" aspect of Kwanzaa. Here in the South, there seems to be very little support of or identification with this event among African-Americans. > January 1 was "made up" into New Years Day by an act of > fiat; New Years Day used to be April 1. When and how did this happen? > I believe "Father's Day" was "made up" in the 50s... > I hope the pattern is clear... Kwanzaa is as valid > a Holiday as any. For those who celebrate it, I'm sure this is true. It's just that I haven't met many of them . . . Glen 0/0

23 years, 12 months

AltairDOS information

by RCini＠congressfinancial.com

Hi: I'm preparing for the 2.1 release of the Altair32 Emulator and am finishing up the help files. I have manuals for Microsoft BASIC and CP/M 2.2 but I have nothing on Altair DOS. Does anyone have a copy of this manual either in physical or electronic form that I can have? Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile)

23 years, 12 months

Waaay UT (undertopic): W9x Thumbnail association.

by allain＠panix.com

This is pretty bad, but somewhat important right now. Anybody know how to associate .jpg files to the IE thumbnail viewer (mini previews) in W98? I don't want to embarrass anyone so you can contact me off list. Its bad enough I have to admit using it. John A.

23 years, 12 months

was "how to clean".. How did they

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

In reality it was far different than that. Women would work for lower wage than men doing a tedious task that was fairly skill intensive. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman <rhblakeman(a)kih.net> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Monday, December 17, 2001 9:50 PM Subject: RE: was "how to clean".. How did they >Not to be sexist or rude but I think that women have a better tolerance for >boring tedious work while sitting on their butts for long periods of time. > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:25 PM >To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: was "how to clean".. How did they > > >On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, ajp166 wrote: > >> Hand made, usually by women working under low power microscopes. > >And they had women doing the work because they apparently are better >at working with their hands (i.e. needlework). > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- >-- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org > >

23 years, 12 months

testing - please ignore

by west＠tseinc.com

More work *sigh*

23 years, 12 months

Flashing Light Indicators un Simple Front Panels

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Dec 15, 19:49, Matt London wrote: > >From what I've noticed, the SparcStation 1 flashes it's power LED when > doing a selftest, but I'm not near the box, so I can't check :&) > > And as Jeff said - Amigas flash the power LED. So they do. I should have remembered that, since I have one of each in this room! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 12 months

mail list cleanup - please ignore

by west＠tseinc.com

Trying to get rid of a bunch of invalid email addresses in the list. Please ignore this message Jay West

23 years, 12 months

[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Dec 18, 0:07, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Mon, 17 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Domestic ones I've seen won't. Apart from the soaking -- that's the point > > of using it, obviously. Very few things are intolerant: some relays, > > transformers, a few types of switches, etc, usually just because they take > > too long to dry out. And core mats, of course, because they're very > > fragile and extremely hard to repair. > > Don't forget old transformers, which often use something looking very much > like paper for isolation. Agreed. That's why my PDP-8/E's H740 power supply got a different treatment. It still got washed, though. > > > Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. > > > > Doesn't work well on smoke-damaged boards, Coke, etc, and water is far > > cheaper and safer (for the user, too). > > It works, but it requires more work. It doesn't work very well. It's almost impossible to get all the crud out >from under ICs, DIL switches, or sockets. IPA does not do a good job on smoke-damaged boards. > > TTL may be > > much less sensitive than old CMOS and even modern CMOS and TTL > > replacements, but it is still sensitive and can be damaged by ESD. It's > > not so likely to be damaged when soldered into a complete circuit, but it's > > possible. I've had at least two QBus boards damaged by ESD through > > careless handling. > > Eh? Q-bus cards, even the oldest you can find, are LSI stuff. You won't > find much of anything even *that* modern in a PDP-8. Actually, much Q-bus > stuff is really modern compared to what I'm thinking of... Plenty of QBus cards use TTL, basic 74 series, not just LS. I just pulled a few out to check. In the faulty ones I referred to, it was some TTL PROMs in one of them that had gone (lost several bits), and I can't remember what was wrong with the other one. Nevertheless, even original 74 series TTL is static-sensitive, and the worst part is that things can be degraded by ESD without failing completely. That's why modern circuits include extra ESD protection. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 12 months

More Great Re-finds During move

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Today I really got lucky and found some items I had been looking for such the NeXT megapixel display model N4000B for the NeXT cube I have yet to test and others that I had forgot that I had. The others are listed below: 2. CPT 8535 with dual 8" drives 3. HP 87 4. hp 140A scope 5. ALTOS 686 6. digital Micro PDP-11 tower 7. IBM 5110 8. Monroe 326 Scientist with Monroe 392 cassette, manual (marked Beta), and a nice black carrying case 9. CPT 9000 tower (good for parts only) 10. CPT SRS 45 (2 of them) 11. TeleVideo model 910 terminal 12. HP150 with built-in printer 13. IBM type 4055 terminal 14. UNISYS terminal could not find a model number on it I loaded a few of the finds in front of the truck to bring home to play with. That's it for now. Keep computing

23 years, 12 months

Burroughs - any information?

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 04:26 PM 12/14/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 12 Dec 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > >> Was not Burroughs and a few other companies noted for destroying all old >> equipment >> and leasing only? > >Yes. No necessarily. I used to work for Burroughs in Roanoke, Va and we just pushed the old machines out to the dumpster. We never pulled any parts or anything so they were complete. I was amazed to discover this when I started work there and I asked if it was ok to pull parts and they said yes. I looted the first few machines but soon had all the parts I wanted so the rest escaped untouched. Burroughs usually rented machines but I know they did sell atleast some of them. But their repair, updates and other service costs were so expensive that I doubt anyone other than US Government agencies were foolish enough to buy the machine and pay cash for service. Joe

23 years, 12 months

Warp Connect V3 (was Re: OS/2)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 12/17/01 7:15:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, louiss(a)gate.net writes: << You can patch Warp 3 up to its final Fixpack (40) from IBM's OS/2 support site. The latest version of OS/2 (which is still supported and updated) is 4.5. It is available only by subscription from IBM, or it has also been incorporated into a retail version by a third party called ECom Station, which you can find out about at their website. Warp 4.5 is much better than any version of Windows. Unfortunately, it doesn't have the level of hardware or software support, of course. Louis >> The best way to update OS/2 is to find the WarpUp cd that was made by indelible blue. Unfortunately, they are out of business. I use it on my OS/2 systems and its pretty much automated although the java install takes hours for some reason. I'm not sure who has taken over the warpup project now. If someone is looking for it perhaps I can help.... easy networking with OS/2 <revisions for win2k and xp coming soon> www.nothingtodo.org/easyos2.htm

23 years, 12 months

FLUKE?

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

I worked for FLUKE in the early 1980's, at their Burbank repair facility, in Burbank Ca (where I also lived). The FLUKE 1720 and 1722 machines did not use 8" floppy drives, they used 5.25" floppies, with optional bubble memory and Winchester (using a GPIB interface). There are only three kinds of system that FLUKE made that utilized (or could have utilized) 8" floppies: 1. FLUKE 3040/3050/3053 series board testers. These are of some interest, because it's the only application I ever saw that used the PACE microprocessor. These things are about the size and shape of an upright piano (and just as heavy). The 'upright' part was covered mit swicthen und blinkenlites. The computer was in a cardcage bolted to the underside of the table, which also helld the 8" drives. They made this cool, low pitched WAAAAAAAH! AAAAAAH! AAAH! AAAH! AAAH! sound when booting. 2. FLUKE 3200 Manufacturing Fault Analyzer. These were largely used to test bare boards and wire harnesses. These are particularly interesting not only because they used 8" floppies, but they used an off-the-shelf computer made by ONTEL. It ran a hacked-up version of CP/M, and was programmed in ATLAS. This beast had *no* blinkenlites. 3. FLUKE 'Terminal/10' analog test system. The T/10 was already old when it was moved to the back of the 1981 FLUKE Catalog. It was an ATE system aimed at analog device testing. It was controlled by a PDP-11 (need I say more?). I think it ran a hacked-up version of RT-11 (but I'm not certain). I've never seen one of these. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

23 years, 12 months

"Geeks" and licensing

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Robertson [mailto:steven_j_robertson@hotmail.com] > 3.) The explosion of the Internet has brought a lot of people > into the > software development arena that should be in other > professions. In recent > years, anyone that knew a language's syntax could get a job > as a developer. > "Knowing the syntax does not a developer make". Hmmm... That > could be my new > sig file :-) I agree completely, but since you raise such a good point, what would you say _does_ make one a "developer?" Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

"Geeks" and licensing

by acme_ent＠bellsouth.net

> From: Christopher Smith <csmith(a)amdocs.com> > (To whit: I worked at one point with a guy who was convinced that every > operating system in the world was derived in some manner from MS-DOS. Yes, > that includes the Macintosh operating system too. "CP/M? What's that? > Unix is based on MS-DOS, right?" The guy was a "programmer.") (gag, puke) Well, most of us (except for Tony) have areas that we are not expert in, or even familiar with. The problem with the fellow you refer to is 1 -- The person who hired him. That person should be disposed of in the most painful way possible. 2 -- The institution which granted him a degree (if any). I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape their way into a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really write code *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree and don't think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. But . . . Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . Glen 00

23 years, 12 months

[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Dec 17, 9:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Sun, 16 Dec 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > They wash them yes. They *don't* put them in a dishwasher. There is a > hughe difference. I know some who do... Anyway, if the dishwasher doesn't use a hot air drying cycle, there's little difference. > > Yes, a certain amount of care is required, and certain > > things can't tolerate being soaked or being too hot or given too much > > mechanical agitation (stress). > > Which all are things I suspect a normal dishwasher might do. Domestic ones I've seen won't. Apart from the soaking -- that's the point of using it, obviously. Very few things are intolerant: some relays, transformers, a few types of switches, etc, usually just because they take too long to dry out. And core mats, of course, because they're very fragile and extremely hard to repair. > > But how would you deal with a piece of > > equipment that was smoke damaged or had been left in the rain or had fallen > > in a river or had been infested with vermin or had a can of Coke spilled in > > it? I've had to deal with all of those and more over the last two decades, > > and washing is the only way. > > Grab a bottle of isopropanol, some swabs, and start working. Doesn't work well on smoke-damaged boards, Coke, etc, and water is far cheaper and safer (for the user, too). > ESD should never be ignored, but in the case of computer from the 60s and > 70s, ESD is really not an issue. We don't have CMOS, we have old style MSI > TTL here... It is not ESD sensitive. I think you'll find most experts disagree with you there :-) TTL may be much less sensitive than old CMOS and even modern CMOS and TTL replacements, but it is still sensitive and can be damaged by ESD. It's not so likely to be damaged when soldered into a complete circuit, but it's possible. I've had at least two QBus boards damaged by ESD through careless handling. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 12 months

P5020 keyboard

by hofmanwb＠worldonline.nl

I recently found a Philips P5020 without a keyboard. Is there anybody with a spare keyboard he could part from? Or alternatively is there any way I could adapt an existing keyboard to the P5020? I live in Arnhem, The Netherlands Thank in advance Wim

23 years, 12 months

New Finds

by dittman＠dittman.net

Today I found the following: 1) IBM PS/2 P70 Portable with Xenix386 loaded. Does anyone know how to bypass the root password so I can log in? 2) A DEC BC56H SCSI cable. I have enough, but since this is a little hard to find, I bought it to pass on to anyone on the list that needs it. 3) An Apple board with part number 077-0219-A. This has two 9-pin connectors, one labeled "TO MOUSE UNIT" and the other labeled "TO MOUSE CONN.". There's a 25-pin connector labeled "TO SCSI CONN.". The date on the board is 1985. Since the board only cost $1, I figured I'd better grab it before it was tossed. -- Eric Dittman dittman(a)dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/

23 years, 12 months

OS/2

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 17, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat > > version-dependant. It's for a new install. > > Dang! Lucky bum! I'm green with envy! ;-) -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 12 months

"Geeks" and licensing

by steven_j_robertson＠hotmail.com

> > For a little bit of on-topic goodness, what is the group's opinion on > > the trend of software engineering quality starting from ancient times? > > Have we improved (practially, not academically) or worsened? > >I think it's about stayed the same. Programmers were, are, and will >always be lazy and impatient. > >If you look at Microsoft code excluisvely, one could make a good argument >that we've worsened considerably. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org As a software quality professional involved in the industry for nearly 30 years, I would contend that the quality of software is far worse today than previously. I think this has come about for several reasons. 1.) The tools the developers use to create software has made it "acceptible" to take shortcuts in the documentation, design, and testing of software. When I first started in engineering, every project was completely documented and desk checked BEFORE any code was written. While best practices indicates this is the correct way to engineer any project, cost was the real driving force for this methodology. When you had to punch cards, and schedule time on a mainframe to compile an application, it was easy to see the cost savings in doing it right the first time. If a programmer (they weren't called developers back then) wrote an application and it bombed, it could be several days before the code would be recompiled. The costs in doing that were pretty obvious and management simply would not allow a programmer to write code until everything else was complete. In todays environment, a developer can compile the application on their workstation in a matter of seconds. You can make a code change, compile the application, and test a module in just a few seconds. While that sounds like an effective way to work, those shortcuts lead to an overall lack of quality. Most developers where I currently work, write the code first then create documentation that reflects the way their software works. Worst of all, uninformed management believes this is the most efficient way to create software. 2.) The current business environment places tremendous value on being the "first to market". This is true even if the software is completely non-functional. As long as you release it before your competitors, you've got an advantage. Even if it doesn't work! 3.) The explosion of the Internet has brought a lot of people into the software development arena that should be in other professions. In recent years, anyone that knew a language's syntax could get a job as a developer. "Knowing the syntax does not a developer make". Hmmm... That could be my new sig file :-) 4.) Lower user expectations. My $.02 SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

23 years, 12 months

[PDP8-Lovers] Re: how to clean a PDP8/A, dishwasher?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Dec 17, 10:41, Matthew Sell wrote: > Vacuum cleaning is much more "dangerous" for a PCB than washing it. > > Pete made a very good point, one I had forgotten, the static charge created > by dust moving through an insulated (plastic) pipe can generate some > obscene voltages. > > Remember the old science experiment involving the comb generating static > electricity? That voltage is enough to wipe nearly the entire board. Of course, one has to be realistic about all this. Vacuuming a PCB with the aid of a soft paintbrush isn't likly to do much harm if the vacuum nozzle is metal and you're holding it and you're grounded, because the static on the nozzle is unlikely to build up to excessive levels. > Remember the old science experiment involving the comb generating static > electricity? That voltage is enough to wipe nearly the entire board. > > Like I said before, don't take my word for it. Take an old, dirty board > that you know works, and run it through the dishwasher. Dot use the plate > warmer or drying functions. At the end of the cycle, remove it, shake it > off, and allow it to dry for several days (hang it up). Plug it back in - > it'll work. > > And it'll look nearly new..... > > > - Matt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

23 years, 12 months

OS/2

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

> Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat > version-dependant. It's for a new install. Dang! Lucky bum! I'm green with envy! Zane

23 years, 12 months

OS/2

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 17, Jeff Hellige wrote: > OS/2 Warp 3 (red box, Windows support requires existing > Windows installation) is 27 disks for OS/2 plus an additional 14 > disks for the Bonus Pack. OS/2 Warp Connect version 3 (Blue box, > includes DOS/Windows support) is on CD-ROM, as is the Bonus Pack. It > does have two diskettes from which to boot the system for > installation though. Is there a specific disk(s) that you need to > replace for Warp 3? I also have OS/2 for Windows version 2.1. Yup...this is to support a P/390 card, so it's somewhat version-dependant. It's for a new install. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 12 months

"Geeks" and licensing

by csmith＠amdocs.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] > even familiar with. The problem with the fellow you refer to is > 1 -- The person who hired him. That person should be > disposed of in the > most painful way possible. Yep. Stupid (and/or ignorant) people in positions of power. Common, but regrettable. > 2 -- The institution which granted him a degree (if any). See my comment regarding #1. It applies here too. :) > I've also had to work alongside people who managed to scrape > their way into > a "programming" job without having "what it takes" to really > write code > *and* solve problems. Don't get me wrong -- I have no degree > and don't > think one's required to be a competent analyst/programmer/whatever. My opinion too. In fact, I haven't got a degree yet, myself. I do plan on eventually getting one, but it seems to me that most of the first three years of any degree program (even some two-year degrees ;) are filler, and there's only about a year (or less) of actual learning in there. I expect the amount of actual learning you'd have to do will also decrease with field-experience, so I'm not in a big hurry to acquire a sheet of paper. I do believe that at least some parts of any degree program could teach me something, though. The only question is whether it's something I wouldn't learn on my own. I do happen to be more pro-active about learning than most people. > But . . . > Should programmers be licensed? Sure makes me wonder . . . Depending on the license it may not be a bad idea ;) Really, though, I think that programmers shouldn't need to be licensed. Maybe managers should be licensed instead? Back to the problem with the programmer, though, I see this particular thing too much. There's an intense lack of fundamental understanding in most people who work with computers, and it really disgusts me. To use this as a specific example, this guy knew how to write some (really convoluted) stuff that the c++ compiler would accept, but had no real understanding of how or why any of it worked (or not.. ;) I'm not saying that to get an entry level job in the field you should need to know the machine architecture like the back of your hand, but you should at least know the basics and be willing to learn the rest. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); '

23 years, 12 months

Hardest to Find Classic Computers

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Douglas Q. wrote: >Ok, we've had threads similar to this one before, but >maybe not quite... > >What are the hardest to find Classic Computers? The Digital Group systems get my vote. I've only *heard* of about 3, since being on this list, which is a while. Maybe because no-one is looking? I can't even imagine finding a full-up system, with several CPU boards, Phi-deck tape drives, and matching cabinets for the monitor, system unit, and tape drives, not to mention all the OS's and other software... well, maybe I can imagine it... >Also not intended as the thrust of the topic: > > Systems you most of all want oops. But maybe there is some overlap? - Mark

23 years, 12 months

Is there no end

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On December 15, John Allain wrote: > I have little doubt about the appropriateness... of your response. > Care to say when its appropriate to own three S/390's? It's wholly inappropriate. He should give one to me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL "Less talk. More synthohol." --Lt. Worf

23 years, 12 months

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test-drb December 2001