test-drb January 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

181 participants
415 discussions

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi, gang. I have a boxed copy, on tape, of Island Write/Paint/Draw for SCO. It was given to me a couple of years ago, and since I have neither a tape drive of the necessary format nor a SCO box, I really don't need it. Pay shipping and it's yours. If you need more details, email me off-list and I'll see what I can come up with. I also have an old Intel SBC developers board with some docs. Don't know if it works or not. It's a little dirty, but considering it's age...if you need more details, email me. Once again, pay shipping, give it a good home, and it's yours. Thanks! Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam(a)laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head."

25 years, 4 months

OT: Re: Dec field guide for Palm

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

At 09:43 PM 1/26/01 -0800, you wrote: >> >If the HP runs PalmOS then it can be used. Let me know and I'll send >> >it. >On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Joe wrote: >> Nope, it runs MS-DOS. AFIK only the PalmPilots run PalmOS. > >This may be stretching things. A lot. >The Code Warrior package for software development for PalmOS is available >in Mac and Windoze versions. It includes a Palm emulator. >Would the HP be capable of running that emulator? Some of the newer HPs like the Jornada might since it runs Windows CE but my 200LX only runs MS-DOS so it can't. FWIW I just bought a Jornada. It's a nice machine but the OL has claimed it. Joe > > > >

25 years, 4 months

VAX-11/780 boot disk

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine(a)idirect.com> > >I have been told that starting with V5.05, "the high priced spread" was >split onto 2 RL02 cartridges with each only slightly more than half full. >Which versions of the RT-11 Source distribution do you have? Also, DEC internal copy of the source kit for 5.4. Nominally you could buy a license for it at some really obcence price (more that 3000$). It fills the better part of one RL02. >I missed something - or I just don't understand what you are getting at. >What was partitioned - RD52 or RL02 or a much bigger drive? And >I also don't know if "run" means "boot" or something else. The RD52 into 3 10mb "RL02s" as virtual images. >I tried the TK50 - ONCE. Since I do a verify on any backup tape 99% >of the time, anyone who has tried to do a BUP verify using a TK50 >vs a hard disk will understand. While it took about 19 minutes to write >one 32 MByte RT-11 partition, it was over an hour during the >"/VERIFY:ONLY" operation that I gave up. > >Now the TK70 (which uses the IDENTICAL DLT tape - CompacTape I) >is another matter. The TK70 drive writes 4 times as much data on one >tape and writes the data three time as fast and the "/VERIFY:ONLY" >operation is just as fast as the BACKUP. So a BUP with the TK70 >can place 8.5 RT-11 partitions on one tape using a TK70. Apparently a difference in how it handle streaming of small block sizes. The TK50 does very poorly at writes of short blocks. >Reliable - yes. Useful as compared with 256 MBytes - NO! Well it doesnt require a SCSI board and I had it. If you have MO Cool and all the better. If I had one I'd have used it. >But if you restrict the comparison to RD51,2,3,4 drives, then >yes!!!!!!!!!! I have had too many RD53 drives go in the last >few years to count. Most were Micropolis 1325 drives with >the R7 jumper inserted so that the RQDX2 thought they were >a real DEC RD53. Which is a M1325! That drive was the poorest of the lot and only a bit better than RD32 (ST251). The XT2190 (RD54) is a good drive but like many of that type and size 31 Watts is a lot of heat that is unhealthy over time. RD52 was the coolest running of the pack and still fast for it size (and MFM). >But with Hitachi DK515-78 drives and a Sigma RQD11-EC >that handles four drives, there is not much to choose between >4 * RD52 (= 120 MBytes) and 4 * DK515-78 (=2.4 GBytes). Killer if you have MSCP compatable SCSI, useless with the more common RQDX3. >Now this is one area I would like to solve as well. But what >OS is needed if I want to use the first 64 blocks on the CD? With that many who cares? I'd just use it as an image copy of the real thing. I'd have little interest in booting RT-11 from CD as CDs most are slower than MFM! Also how would you handle RT-11 SWAP.SYS? That has to be read/write. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Tek 4051

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Hm, I know Richard Ottosen, I suppose I can ask him on Tuesday if he bought it. Looks like the next CU surplus auction may have some Tek things, as the auction catalog lists a few "Tektronix terminal"{s}. I really love their totally detailed descriptions, lemme tell ya.. If anyone would be interested I can try to find out more details. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

25 years, 4 months

Multimedia Extensions for Windows 3.0?

by ktparks＠mindspring.com

I've been looking for "Multimedia Extensions for Windows, Version 1.0" (for Windows 3.0) for many months now. Anyone know where I can find a copy? I saw someone in an old message from 1999 mention that he had it on a CD (along with Windows 3.0) but when I e-mailed him, it bounced back.

25 years, 4 months

DSD-880 Claimed

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

The DSD-880 I had offered earlier has been claimed. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K) "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

25 years, 4 months

OT memory too cheap to pass up

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >2) The physical address to write it to. > >To get the first may involve calculating the parity bits based on the raw >data word. This, agreed, takes some time, so the parity bit is available >later than the data. > >To get the second involves an MMU-type operation. We have to map the >program-generated virtual address to a physical address. This will also >take some time, so the relocated address is available some time after the >virtual address. Usually the physical address is the only one we talk of at the memory pins and any virtualization, mapping and all is prior history. >We then have to apply the address to the memory. Probably in 2 parts, row >and column. Until both parts have been applied to the memory, in general >the state of the data lines is irrelevant. Again, strobing in the address >in two parts takes time. Usually the address for the memory preceeds the data. If the system expects DRAM it's often far earlier to permit the MUX operation. However, in the PC world where the conversation started considerations of MMUs and the like were limited to the older 286s as the 386 class and later were alrady delivering physical addresses to the memory subsystem. >Now, suppose the parity calculation takes p ns. Now, if the parity >generator circuit can get the raw data more then p ns before the address >can be got into the RAM, then the parity logic is not slowing things down >at all. The parity bit is available before the RAM can use it anyway. Save for that is speculative as most cpus deliver data AFTER the address of in coincidence at best. Even then it's meaningless as the timing relative to what ever strobes declare the address valid and qualify the data read or write. One generalization that has mostly held true for most years is that memory (at the system level) usually slower than cpu. This leads to things like pipelining, caching and burst mode(block) transfers to get stuff in and out of the finite bandwith resource. That consideration was as true for the PDP-8 as latest PentIV/1.4G. It's also true that things like DMA and video(bit blitters) are also competing for the same ram bandwith. Allison

25 years, 4 months

TI ASC

by jbdigriz＠dragonsweb.org

To make up for my blunder (too much Canadian on an empty stomach interferes with the keyboard-mashing apparatus), can anyone give or point me to some solid information on the aforementioned machine? All I can find on the Web is pretty vague. Also , it looks like only 7 or so were actually built. Were they all eventually turned into Toyotas, or does anything remain of them anywhere? Thanks, jbdigriz

25 years, 4 months

OT memory too cheap to pass up

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's as simple as that. > >After all, in a reasonably complex system you're going to want to write a >given word to a given address. The address is probably going to have to >be relocated by some kind of MMU, and then applied to the DRAM in 2 >halves. And while the address is being processed in this way, it's Parity is either in parallel or downstream of the MMU. Also the parity is always applied at the byte level so for 72pin and larger simms there are two (or more) bytes to apply parity to. >possible that the data is already 'available', so the partity bit could >be calculated at the same time. Then it doesn't take any longer to >calculate and store parity -- in a sense the critical path could be the >address relocation. Still no. Parity is calculted from the data and by default has some inherent propagation delay associated with the logic. For example the old and venerable 74180 that delay is 10s of nS (about 40 from the 1985 databooks) LATER than the the data. >It depends -- a lot -- on the design of the entire machine. While there may be exceptions parity is generally downstream and part of the memory system rather than CPU. The expections are some of the big iron that had parity on all data as part of the cpu. >So I guess that it might well be the case that parity memory _for a >particular machine_ might have to use faster chips than non-parity memory, >and this might be one reason why they're so much more expensive. But it's >certainly not the case that all memory modules that store a parity bit are >faster than non-parity modules. They are expensive if only for they are Nbits wider (more rams). Allison

25 years, 4 months

OT memory too cheap to pass up

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >> Is it? Someone also told me that parity was usually faster, though. True? > >There's no reason at all why parity memory should be faster than >non-parity memory. Parity memory just stores a parity bit for each byte The assumption is that parity is available at the ram at the time of write and while true it was calculated some where. Parity can only be calculated (simple combinational logic with attendant delays) at the time of a wirte so the write must for a given ram speed take longer. So if you want the parity to fit in a given memory write cycle time you must use faster ram. >of normal data, so you can detect (but not recover from) some memory errors. There is also ECC ram, those are slower (over all) as the ECC bits have to be calculated. Expensive, errors are caught and recovery is possible. Allison

25 years, 4 months

OT memory too cheap to pass up

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >> That would be interesting. You could use duct tape to attach a soldering >> iron to the board so it would generate the same heat that 512MB does :-) > >Many a true word is spoken in jest. ;) >I've seen PCBs in some systems that are nothing more than an array of >high-power resistors connected between (one of?) the supply lines and >ground. Said PCBs are generally fitted if a particular option (consisting >of a PCB containing logic chips, etc) is not installed. And the only >purpose of the board of resistors is to load the PSU so that it stays in >regulation -- the load of the rest of the machines (without the optional >logic board) is not enough for the PSU to remain happy. The best known and classic is Microvax2000 diskless systems. The disks of the day were 30W loads and if they were not used there was a board (array of resistors). The matching tape (TK50..) used the same box, PS and the resistor array to load it. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Machines I'm looking for...

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> >Perhaps somebody could expain the aims of this hobby of ours. Is it to : > >Obtain as many machines as possible without caring what they are > >Obtain as many of particular types of 'interesting' (to you) machines > >Getting (again) the machine that you 'used as a kid' and enjoying those >ancinet games again (say) > >Getting machines that you dreamed of owning many years ago and could >never aford back then > >Getting machines that have particular hardware (or software) features >that you find interesting, whether or not you've ever heard of the >machine before > >Preserving a piece of computer history > >Programming a machine that is really simple enough to fully understand > >Repairing a machine that's built from parts you can get and understand > >Learning about the operation of a computer by understanding a processor >at gate level > > >I guess for me it's many of the above and more besides. Amen.. ... and not every machine I have is for the same set or subset of reasons. Some I hack for the hardware, some represent MY history, other computing history and the handfull that were out of my reach when new. >But most of those 'reasons for the hobby' don't depend on getting a >bargain, and thus it's not unsporting/against the aims of the hobby to >pay for a machine. Generally, though dropping a bomb for a given machine like a ceratin rare painting or other object is as much personal as business. >OK, I know most of us (myself included) can't afford to spend as much >money as we'd like on this hobby, and we'd love it if the machines were >free... However, it wouldn't bother me to spend say \pounds 100.00 on a >machine of particular interest to me, knowing that I would get at least >that much enjoyment/education from programming it, repairing it, learning >about it, etc. And I don't thing that's against the aims of the hobby. That is the clearest explanation I've read. Allison

25 years, 4 months

OT memory too cheap to pass up

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 1/26/01 9:39:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, spectre(a)stockholm.ptloma.edu writes: << > Let me cheer you up, $515 for 128MB kit for an AlphaStation 500/333, or > Sparc 5 RAM 32MB $50-100, or Sparc 20 RAM at about $1.50-2.00 per MB. Of > course it's the AlphaStation RAM I need the most followed by at least a > couple sticks of 64MB Sparc 20 RAM. BTW, the Sparc RAM prices listed above > take eBay into account on the low end! Then there is the 8MB VSIMM I want > for my Sparc 20, it's about $240. Oh, I do sympathise :-) Remember the Apple Network Server that I was trying to get parity FPM for? $500 for 64MB. I'm going to throw in the towel and just stick non-parity in it. That's what everyone seems to be doing these days with ANSes. But I would really love that extra security that parity affords, unless someone wants to convince me that parity is not all that useful in memory? (I'd love to be convinced since you will save me around $300.) >> well, its my understanding that all that parity memory will do for you is stop processing when getting a memory error unlike standard memory which will supposedly keep going. The ECC memory I have in my IBM PS/2 95 can fix on the fly if one bit gets out of order as far as i know. www.nothingtodo.org

25 years, 4 months

Upcoming swap + clearing space

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

CC to port-vax and classiccmp. I'll be hauling a goodly amount of stuff to the upcoming Puyallup electronics swap this year (Saturday, March 10th, Puyallup Fairgrounds, WA), but I've also got some stuff that I know would probably never sell. With that in mind, I'd like to offer the following to the listmembers. Two complete VCB02 video subsystems, including board sets, cab kits, monitors (VR290's if I'm not mistaken), keyboards, 'hockey-puck' rodents, and cabling. These are out of MicroVAX II's. A MicroVAX 2000 "Lunchbox" system. This is one that I kitted out to do low-level formats on RD52 and RD53 drives in the form of adding a longer-than-normal flat cable so the drive could be placed outside the box and still remain connected. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of BA23 boxes I can part with. A DSD-880 floppy/hard drive subsystem with manuals, diag diskettes, and at least one Qbus controller. I may or may not still have a Unibus controller for it as well. Note that this is the only piece I'm going to ask for actual money on (see below). I know I have some MicroVAX II CPU/Memory board sets. I can probably stand to get rid of them. Various other bits and pieces that I have yet to go through. Possibly a VAXStation 3100, probably a DECStation RISC box as well. I've yet to look. I would far rather see this stuff go to good homes than see it scrapped, but I know it's sometimes hard to put a price on things. With that in mind, here's how I'm going to work it. The only piece from this list that I'm going to ask for actual money on is the DSD-880, mainly because it's complete right down to the rack slides, and was known to be fully functional when removed from service about two years ago. I would like to ask $50 or best offer for it. As for the rest of the stuff, it's going up as "Free to good home, but donations to the 'Classic Collecting Fund' will not be refused." ;-) Pickup would be in Kent, WA, southeast of Seattle by about 30 or so miles. I would greatly prefer not to ship anything due to other time-constraining activities like school, running a side business, etc. Get in touch with me if anything looks tempting. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K) "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

25 years, 4 months

Added to available stuff...

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Don't know how on-topic it is for port-vax, but... Added to the 'Available' list in my previous message: An ApplicationDEC 433MP box in great shape. I had it running NetBSD for a little while, so I know it works. It is one of many things that I Just Don't Need right now. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 (Extra class as of June-2K) "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates to me that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Gym Z. Quirk, aka Taki Kogoma).

25 years, 4 months

Tek 4051

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Did anyone on htis list but the Tektronix 4051 that was on E-OverPay? "Tektronix 4051 Desktop Graphics SystemItem #1208941360" Joe

25 years, 4 months

DD50 SCSI connector

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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25 years, 4 months

Tek 4051

by aek＠spies.com

> Did anyone on htis list but the Tektronix 4051 that was on E-OverPay? > "Tektronix 4051 Desktop Graphics SystemItem #1208941360" yes

25 years, 4 months

Tek 4051

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Joe Rigdon wrote: > Did anyone on htis list but the Tektronix 4051 that was on E-OverPay? > "Tektronix 4051 Desktop Graphics SystemItem #1208941360" I was going to bid $100 but I'm glad I didn't bother. The selling price -- $356.01 -- seems excessive considering that the tape drive has a problem. Also, the seller has changed his Ebay userid within the last thirty days -- why? I like to see a seller's feedback. Glen 0/0

25 years, 4 months

Machines I'm looking for...

by LFessen106＠aol.com

In a message dated Fri, 26 Jan 2001 6:01:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> writes: << There are two kinds of shipping, one that messes up your stuff, and one thats real expensive and still may mess up your stuff. Road trip is my preference. >> So I guess I am not the only guy that will drive 200 miles for a free DecStation then huh? -Linc.

25 years, 4 months

VAX-11/780 boot disk

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Jerome Fine <jhfine(a)idirect.com> >Jerome Fine replies: > >Just curious - if you are referring to software distributions and especially >RT-11 (maybe I am confused), in most cases, the RL02 will not be filled I had other non RT-11 stuff... Also I have a RT-11 disti that is the high priced spread (macro with comments) and that does fill the disk. The standard V5.x BIN disti is maybe 30% of the disk. With say RT-disk I'd archive (same for RSTS) is to do a SQueeze. Of course you want to image copy (RSX) and unix V7. >Of course if the RL02 was full, Allison is correct that a single RD52 >will hold only 3 RL02 disk packs and in much less volume. I know. ;) Though a few were partitioned so I could run them as if they were nominal RL02. That wastes space if they were to be pure archival. >Currently, I have managed to find a very OLD Magneto Optical disk >drive with cartridges that hold 295 MBytes (8.75 RT-11 partitions) >on each side. That is the equivalent of 26 RL02 disk packs on >each side or a total of 52 RL02 disk packs on the MO cartridge That works. I also have that archive on DLT (TK50). >I also duplicate important cartridges. I suspect that the MO cartridges >will last longer that the MO disk drives. Of course, I also had to >acquire a SCSI host adapter as well - considerably more costly >than 8 free RD52 drives, but each MO cartridge is MUCH smaller >that the 17 RD52 disk drives it replaces. Yep, though the RD52s are likely the most reliable of the pack and if the problem is not in the HDA a board swap is possible. It was a direct approach. Next pass will be to move them to a PC with a Cdburner. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Windes ME

by fdebros＠aol.com

>> http://calmirazone.8m.com/ > >The worst pages I've seen for quite awhile. > >I gave up. a jeepers are you ticklish! try tha then: http://www.calmira.org/links/index.shtml fred

25 years, 4 months

(no subject)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

-----Original Message----- From: margie jerve <moe8222(a)hotmail.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, January 26, 2001 1:55 AM >Do you still have your 8080A's? > Yes, and also some of the varients. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Complete Apple IIgs Off. Pub. Ref. Books (10) set for trade

by claudew＠videotron.ca

These are nice, real nice, but I dont have the space for books. I am sadly offering these up for trade. I hope to make someone happy with these. Paper covers are intact and all there. Some of these might have a rare "scribbling" in pen or pencil but it's very, very rare. There are 1 or 2 that need to have the bound page part reglued to the hardcover but a little bit of glue can make these perfect. Prodos Technical Reference Manual 186 pages Softcover Apple IIgs ProDos 16 Reference 338 pages Hardcover Apple IIgs Toolbox Reference Vol.1 Hardcover (700+ pages?) Apple IIgs Toolbox Reference Vol.2 Hardcover (700 + pages ?) Apple IIgs Toolbox Reference Vol.3 Softcover (700 + pages ?) Apple IIgs GS/OS Reference Softcover (500+ pages?) Programmer's Introduction to the Apple IIgs Hardcover (500+ pages?) Apple Numerics Manual 295 pages Softcover Apple IIgs Firmware Reference 328 pages Hardcover Imagewriter II Tech. Ref. Manual 204 pages Hardcover (not iigs still...) See a pic at: http://computer_collector.tripod.com/iigs/iigsbks.jpg Ill throw in if needed... 65816/65802 Ass. Language Programming (Fischer, Osborne/McGraw Hill 679 pages) Programming the 65816 (Labiak, Sybex 370 pages) Thats over 35 pounds of books...I guess... Once again, no money offers please. I am looking for nice systems to add to my 197x-198x early 1990s micros collection. Claude Canuk Computer Collector http://computer_collector.tripod.com

25 years, 4 months

Tek 2230 'scope check-out

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Last summer I picked up a Tek 2230, a 100 MHz two-channel digital storage oscilloscope. I think I'd like to check it checked out by a repair service to confirm whether all its functions are working or not. Can anyone recommend a service for this? I don't need a full NBS certification, just a check-out. - John

25 years, 4 months

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test-drb January 2001