test-drb January 2001

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

181 participants
415 discussions

by ncherry＠home.net

I've managed to boot the 3100 with the Hobbiest CD and now it sits at a '$' prompt. Does anyone have the instructions for install the CD? I had them but can not find them now. Any pointers (links) would be appreciated. Also what/where is the '$' prompt? It doesn't take show commands so I'm guessing I'm stuck in between something. Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry(a)home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lightsey/52 (Graphics) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge)

25 years, 4 months

Silicon Valley pioneer William Hewlett dead at 87

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On January 13, R. D. Davis wrote: > Apparently seeing his company deteriorate led to his death. Hewlett > Packard once produced equipment of very high quality, but, alas, it's > product quality has greatly deteriorated and HP appears to consist > mostly of marketing smoke and mirrors, only remaining in business > because of the once excellent products that are associated with the > company name. Granted there's more plastic in them than there used to be, but HP still makes the best test equipment that money can buy, as far as I'm concerned. There's no smoke or mirrors in their test equipment lineup. -Dave McGuire

25 years, 4 months

Silicon Valley pioneer William Hewlett dead at 87

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On January 13, Shawn T. Rutledge wrote: > > Granted there's more plastic in them than there used to be, but HP > > still makes the best test equipment that money can buy, as far as I'm > > Err, you mean Agilent does, right? *GRR*. NO, I mean HP does. Even if they're calling themselves Agilent now. Fucking suits. -Dave McGuire

25 years, 4 months

Off-topic (i.e., not "Nuke Redmond" or OS debate): 3270 ISA boards available

by r.stek＠snet.net

Sorry to drift from the MS-bashing going on <g>, but if anyone is interested in a set of 5 8-bit boards (3 full length, jumpered together) pulled from a 5150 based PC which was used for 3270 emulation, please let me know. Will trade for Altair 8800 or for cost of shipping boards (your choice). Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols

25 years, 4 months

Silicon Valley pioneer William Hewlett dead at 87

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/computing/01/12/hewlett.obit.ap/index.html

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> >The beauty of *nix right now is that its a bit of a chore to install, no >formal support, etc. and that leaves the door open for consultants et al to >make money selling, installing, and supporting it. Not a bad business model >really. I take an aside to this. The current crop of BSD and Linux flavored unix like OSs seem to be as easy to install as W9x. With one caveat, the unix camp is steeped in 30+ years of unix culture. It is this culture that makes if difficult as it's simply different! If you get past the difference and can adopt it's cultural language over prior biases it's fairly forthright and simple to install. Then again I say this as W95 was a royal PITA the first time compared to VMS and other DEC OSs I was familiar with. Then again creating a BIOS for CP/M was pretty intimidating at one time too. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Eizo and NCR

by optimus＠canit.se

I made to observations today. One was a flat, long slab from NCR, with what seemed like 2 ISA slots in the back. On the bottom, it said on a label: Class 3390 Model 1204 I suppose this was employed in a cash register? Anyone familiar with this machine? I think it measured somewhere around 25?35?5 cm (W?D?H). Later that afternoon, I found an Eizo monitor, model 9052S-T. Since I recently got a very useful 9060S multisync, I thought this could be another good deal. I can't find any information about it, though. How low would it sync? Also, my 9060S suffers from noticable bleeding/ghosting around contrasting edges. Any cure? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6. When all else fails, read the instructions.

25 years, 4 months

OT! RE: Nuke Richmond (Long)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: THETechnoid(a)home.com <THETechnoid(a)home.com> >This is on an HPFS formatted drive. A power failure can screw the >filesystem just like windows if you run fat. I gave up on fat about the >time I got OS/2.... Yes, FAT bad, anything else better. It's relevent too as FAT filesystem is only 18-19 years old and represents the greatest flaw of DOS, WIN3.1 and WIN9x. While off topic, it's interesting and OS designand evolution is something the list members might delve deeper into. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Redmond!

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> >I buy nothing but Dell now, a good system that is as tightly integrated >with Windows as any machine out there. I have one at home, and one at the >office. Yet I have to reboot each on average once a week. FYI: my partners employer went all dell and they are far happier with them compared to DEC, compaq and Duratel. They dont seem to experience reboot problems save for when they run one rather badly behaved ACCESS based application. The Access hack (must have been written by script kiddies) even has a sloppy user interface. Don't blame the Cow for soggy cereal unless the Cow makes it. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

>> Then again I say this as W95 was a royal PITA the first time compared to >> VMS and other DEC OSs I was familiar with. Then again creating a BIOS >> for CP/M was pretty intimidating at one time too. >> >> Allison > >It all depends on the person. I can install things such as Linux, OpenBSD, >Solaris, OpenVMS, MacOS and RT-11 almost with my eyes closed, and the hardest >part is waiting for the software to move from CD to HD (yes, even with RT-11). >With any Windows variant I seem to have to dedicate a minimum of one day to >cursing and fighting the garbage! Well first time took three days. Now I can do it in about an hour. 28 client system that were horridly configured was the practice. By horrid things like only one 500mb partition on a 1gb disk and other offenses to the mind. All I had to do was learn the OS and install scripting. My favorite kind of fun is taking a wreck like a 486/33 with 8mb ram and 120mb of disk and making a printserver and still have 60mb unused. I can do NT4/server faster though as it wants fewer reboots. Once I learn Linux installs I can do that about as fast for a generic install with most packages. It's the little "you gotta know" things that make a difference. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: THETechnoid(a)home.com <THETechnoid(a)home.com> >In Windows - ANY version, the applications are like different flavors of >bullion and spices. They dissolve in the operating system and become >virtually indistiguishable from the solute. If you make the mistake of >mixing two incompatible flavors, you can't get only one flavor out of the This is indeed a secondary thing I dislike about MS. Though it's not quite soup if the app your running is not MS. MS apps mingle with the OS and make mush though I've pulled them out completely with some work. The problem is more MS than the OS as things like IE, OE and Office do not uninstall completely. They leave bits about as reminders they were there. If your willing to hit the registry and files system they can be removed bit it's a PITA. Its the price you pay for ActiveX, COM, VBS and all the other MS hacks. >> OS/2 V3 Close to NT maybe better on multitasking, security is ??? > >OS/2 is significantly better than NT in the multitasking department and >has no serious bugs I am aware of. OS/2 shippes (desktop versions) with >essentially no SPECIAL security like NT does. It does have 'hooks' for >this security and you can buy IBM or third-party software to latch into >them and provide strong security. Warp Server versions are good examples. The lack of security in networked systems to me is a weakness. Even as a home user now that I have DSL I have to thinkk about security so not having it is not a flaw but a weakness. Then again it's also V3 and rather old. >I love these kinds of customers. They hire me, tell me what they want to >do, but not HOW TO DO IT. Being who I am, I'd put Warp Clients on the While I'm not told to use W95 or NT at work I ahve 40 users and 4 servers and jumping to FreeBSD is a nontrivial task if the server is running middleware like COLDfusion on Paradox databases. >impartiality (or apathy) makes them practical. They put Windows on the >desktop as clients to thier Warp servers to lower training requirements. >Since these machines aren't being strained much, they serve thier purpose, >since the servers work fine, everybody is happy. Exactly. In my case the servers are NT4 and NT3.51 and down time is nearly unheard of. They are lightly loaded so it's fine. >> WinNT4 I use it, best of the MS lot I've worked with. > >Much better than any other MS os except maybe DOS for stability. It has >warts as does anything else, but it's biggest wart is the SOUP thing which >is death. Its a problem but if you understand it it doesnt have to be. For example I test a lot of software that may be used. Rather than worry the uninstall process I image the disk (10gigs is under $100!!!), do my testing and go to the image to restore. The Unix approach is like VMS and I like it better but using an image accomplishes the same end as effectively. Copying apps from one system to another under Winders is painful but it's COPYRIGHTED and not supposed to be so that's not an issue at work. >> Linux It's getting too loaded with MSisms > >Linux is kinda messy and poorly documented. I like it, but that is just >me. Yes but if you were building a work system that makes for a lot of training and documentation as part of the work done. As an engineer I've learned if it's not documented it cant be reproduced and didn't exist. >NetBSD is best I think. Then again, I don't spend my days trying to keep >brilliant kids from trashing my systems so someone may have a more >informed opinion. FreeBSD do do security regression testing so I find them the most secure or at least I can identify the holes or other flaws. >I just got into VMS recently so don't really have an opinion - YET :-0 Its an interesting OS. If your unix inculturated or used to say IBMisms (non PC) then it may bug you. It is robust, uses the hardware well and is reasonable enough. I like the grey wall (docs, lots of DOCS). Part of it's robustness and all come from being married to a specific processor (VAX) and 20+ years of maturity. Then again if MS didn't morph the OS every 5 years to something vastly different with a ton of legacy addons it could be better. Instead we have Win3.1, W9x, WNT3/4,win2000 codebases and each trying to eliminate the apps for the previous. Oh, to me the OS is like razors. Give the handle away and sell the blades. Problem is people keep changing the handle to keep other guys from making blades for it. The latter is the Microsoft way. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Iggy Drougge <optimus(a)canit.se> >>is taking a wreck like a 486/33 with 8mb ram and 120mb of disk and >>making a printserver and still have 60mb unused. > >60 megs? You waste sixty megs on a printserver? My, that's resourceful. Not. Sure I could have dug up a smaller hard disk but that one was already excess. When you consider the 120mb IDE disk, 486box and all were picked up as trash for the dumper, yes! It's has no floppy, headless{no tube}, no mouse or keyboard either. Cost was time to install from a loose CDrom drive. It serves a HP color inkjet and a HP4L to 6 W95 users and doing that with anything else is either more complicated or didnt' buy me a thing. Runs 24/7 with only reboots for power loss (about 5-7 times a year). Allison

25 years, 4 months

Router Configuration

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> >If you need a good proxy server on as low end a system you can (win95 as a >proxy server? oi!) try the Linux Router Project. Can run on a lowly 386 An aside if W95 is only doing proxy server it's fine, just done ask it to be printserver and a local workstation as well. First it was a box I had handy, not that it was a best choice. Runs much better on NT4/WS minimal running on a 486dx/66 in 20mb ram. The LRP is already running on a SIIG3000 (brick sized 386/16 W/5mb ram) and it's a good enough combo. It only has one eithernic due to internal slot limits, that one will later be a modem NAT/router from DSL down times. Like many others I've gone DSL and the DSL modem needs NAT, firewall, antivirus and proxy services in it so I have to look around too. My preference is FreeBSD or VMS running on a box with two EitherNICs so that my backbone is completely isolated from the DSL. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond (Long)

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

Since we are all in asbestos shorts/panties mode I might as well join in. My neighbors think I know all about new computers because I have a garage full of old computers. My most recent inquiries are similar to the following. Neighbor Q: I was trying to print a word document that I hadn't saved when my computer locked up. My Q: What else was running? Neighbor A: All this stuff that runs when my computer starts up. My Q: Any other programs? Neighbor A: Well I was also dialed into AOL and running Napster. Neighbor Q: Don't you have these same problems. My A: I don't listen to music when I program and I don't use Napster. My Q: When is the last time you purged any files? Neighbor A: Does it do it automatically? My Q: When is the last time you did a backup? Neighbor A: Does it do it automatically? My Q: Did you save the document? Neighbor A: Does it do it automatically? I just spent 2 hours typing and now I'm ready to print. When I'm finished editing I'll save the final copy. My A: Leave it alone and I'll look at it when I get a chance. I visit. My Q: Why do you have both Norton and Macafe antivirus running? Neighbor A: I need virus protection they start automatically. MY Q: Why do you have AOL, AIM, and MSN running? Neighbor A: Some came installed and I use AOL for access to internet, they start automatically. My Q: Why run Napster while you're typing? Neighbor A: I always listen to music when I type, the computer is closer than the stereo so I run Napster System has 25 GB disk, 256 MB memory and 56% of resources available, no keyboard response. My suggestion: Don't do more than 1 thing at a time and you will not have any problems. Neighbor Q: I though computers allowed you to do lots of things at the same time? Neighbor Q: I really want to play games, download music and listen to it at the same time MY Q: Do you want to burn CD's? Neighbor A: Yes MY Q: Do you want to scan pictures and print them? Neighbor A: Yes My A: Get a CRAY computer Neighbor Q: How much are they? I feel much better now that I've vented. People want a black box that works without them thinking, and that's what they have been promised by Dell, Gateway and Compaq. Mike mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

25 years, 4 months

Apple external SCSI drives

by mark_k＠iname.com

Hi, [Firstly, for some reason I never received classiccmp digest #482. Could someone be kind enough to email it to me, preferably compressed?] On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:11:35 -0500 > For Pr1me minis, hard drives have to be able to support a sector size > of 2080 bytes, instead of or in addition to the usual 512-byte sector > support. With Apple, their *first* hard drive (a non-SCSI unit) had > things called disk tags that required drives that support a sector > size of 576 bytes (from memory, probably wrong). > > I'm not defending the practice; while I assumed your remark was > rhetorical, not everyone in the audience may be as well-informed > as we are. Sector size is sometimes/usually controllable by the user. By issuing a format unit command with the appropriate parameters, some drives can be formatted to (almost) any sector size. The 86MB Fujitsu hard disk that I bought in 1991 came with a leaflet describing how to do this. The OEM manual for any given drive should say whether the sector size can be altered. This could be useful if you want to use a "normal" SCSI drive with some exotic computer, or vice versa. If you are not using a lame OS that has trouble with non-512-byte sectors, "free" disk space may be obtainable by reformatting with larger sector size such as 1K or 2K. Since there are fewer sector headers etc. with larger sector sizes, the disk capacity increases. On some drives, the manufacturer name that the drive reports can be changed by issuing the correct SCSI command(s). I have no idea what proportion of drives support this; it is probably not common (I know Fujitsu 230MB MO drives do). On a related subject, does anyone have OEM manuals for any old hard disks, optical drives or any other SCSI devices? These are usually impossible to obtain from the manufacturer, and can be very useful. In particular, I'd like to get hold of OEM/SCSI manuals for: Chinon CDS-435 CD-ROM Fujitsu M2511 MO drive Fujitsu M2612ESA hard disk Fujitsu M3191F1/F2 scanner Ricoh RH5500 50MB removable cartridge drive Various Ricoh MO drives Seagate ST1480N hard disk -- Mark

25 years, 4 months

OT: Router Configuration

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> >My suggestion would be to use any 486 class hardware that you have handy >that will easily support TWO network adapters. People tell me a decent 386 >will even work, but with a 486/66 you have a LOT more flexibility with >memory etc. I've tried a 386DX/40 (with cache) and it was as good as a 486/33. The key thing is availability of memory and peripherals for it. Also there are the problems like some 386 boards getting more than 8-32mb of ram on the board is hard, expensive or impossible plus limited bios support for large (over 500mb) disks. >A nice canned commercial package, but still free for home use; www.gnatbox.com I have to check this out. ;) Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> >When you have a LOT of unix experience they do seem about as easy to >install, but I am a fairly normal, knowledgable person and it took me That is the culture and documentation thing. Plus, unix {and clones} is an OS not an application unto itself. So that means you can use it for anything BUT, anything you may want to do is not always documented in a direct stepwise fashon. >had to do, but the mechanics of doing it are much more familiar. Exiting vi >the first time I edited /etc/resolv.rc only took about an hour. Well, having had to live with TECO, Vteco, ED {cpm version} and command line editing inside VAX EDT {teco macros} a command line oriented visual editor like VI is far less foreign. Be glad you didn't have to use unix ED! >at what price? (both in $ and failing to learn how to exit vi). When I >recommend NetBSD, part of the recommendation is before you get started, >join a support list (and I give a URL). Do the words HELP! mean anything? It's a good idea. >With windows the problem is the opposite, the damn thing wants to run >EXACTLY the way it wants to with few if any user options and very much at >your own risk. Well yes and no. To make a point yes it's more limiting, it was designed for a different use (more like specific use). However if you learn how to manipulate the Registry, some of the .INI files and other burried bits it's possible to tune or even eliminate a lot. The first step is learning how to install it with the opions you want and not the MS or CPU vendor selected set. For example getting the W95 OSR2/USB OEM version to NOT install AOL, ATT and Compuserve or the correct set of tools. It does make a difference. If your using W98 (or 98second or ME) using 98lite to eliminate some of the junk in the install process can considerably lighten and speed the end result. But this is going far beyond the usual level that even most W9x power users go. In comparison, Unix users have gone to the level beyond the Windows power user. Most are doing system integration (making a NAT box lets say) and are even doing significant applications development. You can do that with W9x but you need the SDKs and corrosponding knowledge. In the end it's not an OS thing beyond having the fundemental hooks in it. There is nothing to say you couldn't have used: WinNT OS/2 BeOS Minix OpenDOS or whatever to do the same project. Each would impose different knowledge requirements and development loads. By the same token each one would have differing paybacks in cpu, memory and storage needed to accomplish the task to some given level of performance. Anywho, where W95 is actually weak in my mind is isolation between applications and the OS. The result is a misbehaving app or driver can kill the system. Security is poor as well. The serious offense and W98 (ME edition is best here) is TASK management and scheduling. In all it's a low security and weak multitasking OS. So if it doesn't perform with 10 tasks open then one should not be surprized. Based on the above comment I find this to be my opinion of multitasking perfomance of OSs I've used or seriously looked at for PC hardware. Poor Win3.11 little to no protection for the OS or tasks W9x Limited OS and task protection and some security. OS/2 V3 Close to NT maybe better on multitasking, security is ??? WinNT4 I use it, best of the MS lot I've worked with. Linux It's getting too loaded with MSisms Unix clones {FreeBSD, OpenBSD} good multitasking, excellent security BEST ..............unknown I'm Biased as I don't think any of them are at the OpenVMS level of reliability, performance or documentation. The latter, documentation both in it's completeness and conciseness alone seperates it from the PC OS listed though linux likely has by shear bulk come close. Allison

25 years, 4 months

OT! RE: Nuke Richmond (Long)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> > >And for the most part that's what Windows delivers, albeit sometimes very >poorly. I can be playing Casino99, listening to Napster tunes, surfing >the web, checking my e-mail, have a telnet session open, and have Outlook >Express open, all concurrently. But then when I close down Casino99 while >Napster is playing a tune, Napster crashes. Then it causes other shit to >go haywire sometimes, resulting in the need to reboot. This is on a Dell >Dimension 4100. A nice box. Makes little difference what box it is one or mor eof the apps are broken and killing others. Composted (yes cow dung is composted) as they are would they run better under VMS or on a Sun, likely not just the core dumps might be more interesting. Then if you also looked even on a "Real OS, (tm)" youd find they still buffer overflow, mem leak and leave garbage in memory or load broken drivers. Just a few of the far to common offencesI've seen. >If I would trade convenience for stability and run Linux instead, I could >do all these things, only faster, better, and cheaper (in terms of less >medication for my high blood pressure caused by every Windows reboot). Maybe, once you debug and recompile the apps. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Router Configuration

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> Subject: OT: Router Configuration >SparcStation 2 with Solaris 7, of course some Pentium (and below) computers, >etc. available but I am clueless on what type of software could be used to >set this up. I would also like to put up a web server that most likely would >only be accessable (for the time being) from inside. My knowledge in the >area of setting something like this up is pretty small. Any suggestions? >Thanks. Low end pentium running whatever you knew well. I've tried W95(custom install, minimal system) with AnalogX Proxy server on the DSL with good results with a 486dx/66 and 16mb ram. NT4/WS running analogX Proxy was better on the 486dx/66 FYI. There is LRP (Linux router project) and I'm sure FreeBSD and the right stuff works well for this too. Most anything works but what software is mostly a case of what you know (can buy) and and configure. NAT/Router/Bridge/proxy/firewall things do not that seem all that cpu intensive. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by itq＠hetnet.nl

Folks, Can you expect to say to a housewife : This is a Linux cd. Install it on this computer and I expect you to have looked at these Internet sites by tomorrow morning? It would have to be some housewife!! Linux needs far to much work still to make it fit for the masses. Wim

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Redmond!

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

On January 11, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Sir, you damage your credibility with statements like some you've made here. > While it's true that the Microsoft products may not be the "best" thing for > thos of us who are inclined to fuss and fiddle with our computers, they're > WAY better for those who can't, won't, or shouldn't. I know this response wasn't directed at me, but I have to take [at least a little] exception to this. Microsoft products are teaching (have teached?) the world that computers (ALL computers) need to be restarted several times each day, and that this is normal and acceptable behavior. That computers break frequently, and cause the loss of work. That computers (MODERN computers) have a bitmapped click-happy interface, and anything that doesn't is "quaint, useless old technology". Do you really think these are good things for computer neophytes to be taught? There are hoards of Microsoft weenies running around who actually *believe* these things...and with Microsoft teaching them to shun other technologies, they'll probably *never* understand the true nature of "computers". Here's an exaple of the brain-damage that Microsoft is promoting. A while back, I had a job in which I was designing some custom microcoded floating-point processors using MSI and LSI chips and PAL/TTL glue. My grandmother (may she rest in peace) was talking to her [windows-running] neighbor, bragging about me in typical grandmother style...when asked what I do for a living, she answered proudly and accurately, "my grandson is very smart...he builds computers!" The neighbor, obviously lacking the social skills to understand that he was being insulting, said "aww, that's nothing...building them is the easy part. It's LOADING them that's hard! Maybe he'll get to that level in a few years. Keeping all those programs from messing up Windows is the really hard part of 'computers'." I was utterly flabbergasted by this, so much that I was rendered speechless. -Dave McGuire

25 years, 4 months

OT! RE: Nuke Richmond (Long)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com <healyzh(a)aracnet.com>> >Is there a point to this rambling? Yes, there is! Applications! >Specifically usable applications are what make or break a OS. If an OS >doesn't run the Apps a person wants, they're unlikely to use that OS. There is the key point. Also most people that like WP didnt' like the later versions MS like look and feel despite the features. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Quit

by jpl15＠panix.com

>Q Really quit Pine? >Y Expunge the 75 deleted messages from "INBOX"? >Y You sure? Possibly important threads exist. >Y! Are you aware that 73 of them are from the Thread: "Nuke Redmond"?? >YYYYYYYYY Last chance to read them all again before deletion: [Y/N]: > y Deleted all 75 messages and kept 238. >Pine finished. To recover the 73 deleted "Nuke Redmond" messages, enter the following comm {{{{|||~{{|~|~|~eee~|~|~||qqq|~{|{~{~{{{|| NO CARRIER John

25 years, 4 months

OT! RE: Nuke Richmond (Long)

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

From: THETechnoid(a)home.com <THETechnoid(a)home.com> >My point is that OS/2 is everything Microsoft has been saying both Win9x >and NT are combined plus a lot (like a good, stable design). It is easier >to use than any other operating system short of 9x and has a FAR better >GUI than Windows or anything else at all. Well, I've looked at only one version OS/2 V3 with all the goodies as of when it came out. Ran ok and all but apps for it were a bit thin. I plan to play more with it once I get it running TCP/IP and a eithernic. Allison

25 years, 4 months

Nuke Richmond

by mcguire＠neurotica.com

Whew...sorry Richard, there's just so much flame bait in here I'm just going to pretend I didn't read it. And I'm not even a Linux fanatic. -Dave McGuire On January 12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > All these complaints about how things are won't fix a thing! > > If the LINUX community were interested in providing a service, that is, a > service for anyone other than themselves, they'd have done the up-to-now > missing 90% of the work and cleaned up and documented their software. > Instead, you have a terrible mess of code with comments that hve been > irrelevant and incorrect for the last 25 revisions, yet nobody's been > willing to delete them. Generally, design and coding is about 2% of the > job, debugging is another 3%, cleanup is about 5% and thorough and accurate > documentation is about 90. > > >From what I've seen so far, the LINUX community, though well-intentioned, > has done little to provide tools useable by the masses. > > Instead of lighting that "one candle" they'd rather personalize their > frustration, resulting, BTW, from their own lack of application effort, > targeting Bill Gates, whose policies are really no different from those of > any corporate leader. They're supposed to outdo the competition, trip them > up, confound their efforts to acquire market share, and just generally try > to do them in. Gates and Co have done well. What's more, for every LINUX > user who's even remotely satisfied with what he has, there are thousands of > Windows-users out there who love their OS. One difference, however, is that > they (the Windows users) don't have to spend their lives stroking the OS > just to keep it alive. > > Dick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Tinker" <jtinker(a)coin.org> > To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> > Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 7:25 AM > Subject: Re: Nuke Richmond > > > > "W.B.(Wim) Hofman" wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > Can you expect to say to a housewife : This is a Linux cd. Install it on > > > this computer and I expect you to have looked at these Internet sites by > > > tomorrow morning? It would have to be some housewife!! Linux needs far > to > > > much work still to make it fit for the masses. > > > > > > Wim > > > > Don't forget the opportunity lost due to M$ predations. Gates didn't > invent > > software. He pulled the rug out from under a lot of good effort, using > > everyone else's work, but trying to protect his own. He poked his finger > in > > the eye of standards wherever possible. Standard layers will be the > foundation > > of future system elaboration. The fundamental contradiction Gates had to > get > > around, was that between "information age" and "proprietory software". It > is > > the "rising tide lifts all boats" problem. What is the value of wealth, > unless > > you are richer than the next guy? If everybody is rich, who will pick up > the > > garbage? When people started passing around copies of his BASIC, Gates > > realized the problem, and the solution. > > > > -- John Tinker > > > > > >

25 years, 4 months

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test-drb January 2001