test-drb May 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

174 participants
659 discussions

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

At 04:32 PM 5/26/1999 -0400, you wrote: > >If this is a ? thats been dealt with before I joined the list my >apologies. > I repeatedly come across personal and confidential information on >discarded computers. I sit and shake my head in shock. Lawyers seem to >be the worst. I have considered contacting the original owners and >educating them about practicing safe hex but, especially in the case of >lawyers and women, don't want to have them freak out and think I'm being >weird and calling the police. On the other hand I feel that I should do >something. In the end I just format the drives and forget about it. > Has anyone experienced contacting an original owner? What was the >response. This is something that I've not read about in the media as Y2K >and Hackers get all the press but I suspect this is a bigger potential >problem. > > >Colan > In my opinion you are doing the right thing in just formatting the HD. If too much noise is made about this problem the word will get around and people will destroy their discarded computers rather than let them get into the hands of collecters. In some cases users don't know how to scrub the hard drive, and in others the computer has gone down and they can't erase it without going to some expense. Possibly somebody (Sam?) could come up with a "Computer Collector's Code of Ethics" which would include erasing any confidential material on acquired computers. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

25 years, 7 months

non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see comments below: Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, May 27, 1999 7:02 AM Subject: Re: non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier) >> > The 2190 is 1224*15. However the number of cylinders can be increased (it >> > was controller limit not the drive) the limit, I think is closer to >> > 4096*16*18*512 or roughly over 600mb. The problem is that RLL with the >> >> Do you mean that Maxtor used only about the first third of the available >> platter for data? That seems like a bit of a waste. I do recall - years >> back - discussion about how the XT1085 could be extended, but not by a >> factor of three! >No, No No... > >The maxtor 2190 is 1224 Cylinders by 15 heads and whatever formatting for >the number of sectors. This lies within the capacity limit of 504 MB imposed by many older '486 motherboards. >the command structure for most MFM and RLL controllers only used >1024 of the possible 4096 (10 of the available 12 bits). It's an artifact >of the controller designs. Where do these 12 bits fit? The 10-bit limit was inherited from the WD1010 chip's register geometry. This was frequently a motherboard/BIOS-imposed restriction. If the Motherboard doesn't recognize drive types with more than 1024 cylinders, the controller won't either. Several controllers offered various ways around this, e.g. masquerading fewer heads up to the maximum of 16 and reducing the number of cylinders correspondingly, and, likewise, fiddling with the number of sectors so that it was up to the BIOS-compatible maximum of 63 whereas the drive only had 15 heads, again with a corresponding reduction in the number of cylinders. However, if the BIOS on the PC motherboard supports drives up to but not exceeding the 1024x16x63x512-byte configuration, then that's all it will do. >Physically you can go for up to 16 heads and 4096 cylinders in the st506 >interface spec'd drives. The problem was that more cylinders do not >enhance speed. It's better to pack more on a given cylinder as you can >access that data faster than moving heads across a lot of tracks. Please explain what you mean by this. I've not yet gotten feedback from my ex-girlfriend's son, currently chief eng'r at Maxtor, but I've seen no information which suggests that the 2190 drive actually had 4K cylinders. You must be referring to some geometry aliasing stunt performed by some controllers. I'm mystified. I can see no way a controller can circumvent the BIOS, which is the vehicle by means of which the OS communicates with the HDD at the lowest level. The only exception I've run into is the Lark Associates controller, which lies to the motherboard about what it attached and presents, say, my 8760 as two physical drives, of which one is at the maximal 504 MB capacity, while the remainder of the drive appears to be on a separate physical drive. >Please everyone prune of the unwated portions of the message. If I can do >it using pine across a sluggish telnet link during the day No one has an >excuse. > >Allison > >

25 years, 7 months

non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Someone should correct me if I'm wrong (I'd be interested in knowing that <I'm wrong!), but the largest capacity MFM geometry is that of the Maxtor <XT2190 (1024 cylinders * 15 heads), giving you just under 150 Mbytes (M=10* <after formatting at 19 sectors/track. And the RLL version gets <another 30% or so of capacity. The 2190 is 1224*15. However the number of cylinders can be increased (it was controller limit not the drive) the limit, I think is closer to 4096*16*18*512 or roughly over 600mb. The problem is that RLL with the higher bit packing, and EDSI with the higher data rates put more data on a square inch of media and make more sense than pushing the mechanics of the drive. <Of course, large embedded-controller SCSI drives are readily available on t <surplus market these days. 9 Gbyte drives start below $150.00, and <2 Gbyte drives seem to get around $40. And they are small too! Allison

25 years, 7 months

confidential info on old harddrives.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> It's a foolish practice. Running Norton's diskwipe is a good thing but a FYI: disk wipe write a patternover the dat file to reduce it's recoverability. <wiping program (and *think* it is okay although not as good as doing a <wipedisk) is to overwrite the offending file with another larger one, i.e. Delete and format will pretty much clean the disk. The key thing is to not leave it out in the open so to speak. <drive, and then hit the platters with a bulk eraser. I have heard that it Then the disk is useless and you much as well hit it with a hammer as the positioner servo information is gone. <is possible to recover data from the HD even after doing a wipedisk by <removing the platters and then analyzing the platters (urban legend?) Yes that is true but, you're taking in a lab setting with sophisticated tools and knowledge. IE: CIA/fbi stuff. Allison

25 years, 7 months

VCF 3.0 ANNOUNCEMENT: VINTAGE COMPUTER FAIRE!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Like Tim said, nont one member of LICA has a "pure" machine. Some part >was non stock and often the reason was price or availability. I can't say >how many Altair and IMSAIs with floppies from neither vendor were seen. Or, as I understand the rules, it would penalize someone who hooked a Model 33 Teletype to their Altair because MITS didn't make the Teletype. Yet the Teletype is the most singularly classic input/output peripheral of the era. And if you didn't have a Teletype, users generally had some surplus keyboard hooked to their S-100 box (heck, look at the very first issue of _BYTE_ which features "surplus keyboards" as the cover story!). Yet again, you get penalized in the judging for configuring your machine as it would have typically been configured by an actual user in that day. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 7 months

Used DEC equipment for sale

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

Anyone after PDP-11 gear? Check this out. -=-=- <break> -=-=- On Thu, 27 May 1999 02:33:09 GMT, in comp.sys.dec you wrote: >>From: "Kim Waggoner" <kaw(a)weatherbank.com> >>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec >>Subject: Used DEC equipment for sale >>Lines: 11 >>Organization: WeatherBank, Inc. >>X-Priority: 3 >>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >>X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 >>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 >>Message-ID: <F9233.310$f73.185(a)news.rdc1.tx.home.com> >>Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 02:33:09 GMT >>NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.4.97.165 >>X-Complaints-To: abuse(a)home.net >>X-Trace: news.rdc1.tx.home.com 927772389 24.4.97.165 (Wed, 26 May 1999 19:33:09 PDT) >>NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 19:33:09 PDT >>Path: news1.jps.net!news.pbi.net!131.119.28.147!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!logbridge.uoregon.edu!feeder.qis.net.MISMATCH!feeder.qis.net!nntp.abs.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news.rdc1.tx.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail >>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.dec:1139 >> >>We have migrated out of our DEC PDP-11 systems. >>If anyone is interested in purchasing our used DEC equipment, please E-mail >>dec(a)weatherbank.com or call Kim Waggoner at 405-359-0773. >> >>We have 3 Dyna-5 12 slot backplanes, 11/73's Mentec 11/73's (18mhz with 4MB cache). >>Emulex comm boards, SCSI and ESDI disks. MultiTech modems, KXJ-11 I/O processors ect.. >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

25 years, 7 months

non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I don't think they could be extended to 4K cylinders either. 1224 x 15 was a pretty common geometry. It even appeared in some BIOS drive tables. The 4380E was built like that wasn't it? Most manufacturers had an ST-506 interfaced drive with the same geometry as their ESDI drives so they had someplace to put the platters/HDA's which didn't handle the servo well enough. One surface was dedicated for servo, IIRC. The 4380 was about 1224x15x35 or 36 (take your pick, and set the jumper). The WD1007 ESDI controllers would make that look like 636x16x63 or some such. You didn't have to sacrifice capacity in order to use that. It was their RLL and MFM controllers that couldn't translate track/sector geometries. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 10:57 PM Subject: Re: non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier) >On Wed, 26 May 1999, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> <Someone should correct me if I'm wrong (I'd be interested in knowing that >> <I'm wrong!), but the largest capacity MFM geometry is that of the Maxtor >> <XT2190 (1024 cylinders * 15 heads), giving you just under 150 Mbytes (M=10* >> <after formatting at 19 sectors/track. And the RLL version gets >> <another 30% or so of capacity. >> >> The 2190 is 1224*15. However the number of cylinders can be increased (it >> was controller limit not the drive) the limit, I think is closer to >> 4096*16*18*512 or roughly over 600mb. The problem is that RLL with the > >Do you mean that Maxtor used only about the first third of the available >platter for data? That seems like a bit of a waste. I do recall - years >back - discussion about how the XT1085 could be extended, but not by a >factor of three! > - don > >> higher bit packing, and EDSI with the higher data rates put more data on >> a square inch of media and make more sense than pushing the mechanics of >> the drive. >> >> <Of course, large embedded-controller SCSI drives are readily available on t >> <surplus market these days. 9 Gbyte drives start below $150.00, and >> <2 Gbyte drives seem to get around $40. >> >> And they are small too! >> >> Allison >> >> > >

25 years, 7 months

non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier)

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well . . . I'd really never considered using an SMD <=>SCSI bridge. I used to have a CDC LARK drive on my CP/M system because I've always loved removable media. That was back when my elder son wasn't tall enough to get on the table, though. Now I use SCSI drives in trays. All of them are 1GB 3.5" drives. The frames are set to hold the device ID, so the drives are, by the grace of God, hot-swappable. Those little frame/tray combo's cost $15! It's the best $15 I've spent, for sure! I was aware of the ESDI drives, having used a number, and having them around the house as doorstops, etc. The most interesting ones are the 380 MB size, which, in both MINISCRIBE and MAXTOR incarnations, allow their converson >from ESDI to SCSI with the swap of a single board. Complete software packages, e.g. FPGA/CPLD support software from conceptualization to programming tools want more than that, particularly if you want schematic entry software with it. I find 1GB about right. Libraries can be left on the server unless they need to travel to a client's site. I fought quite a bit with the MAXTOR 1140's. They just didn't work reliably with RLL/ERLL encoding, though they were rock solid when used with MFM. I don't know why this was . . . I bought two of these babies about ten years ago for use with a PERSTOR (remember them?) only to find that the controller and drives didn't like each other. My system drives ( also removable ) are EIDE models. I saw 10.5 GB drives for $199 (new) at Costco this morning. I'm sure one can do better, but that certainly would discourage me from paying $150 for used SCSI drives. I guess I am just too frugal . . . Dick -----Original Message----- From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 6:27 PM Subject: Re: non-SCSI disks on a SCSI disk interface (was Re: Space, the next frontier) >>I've had decent results with the ADAPTEC 4070's too. What I'm mainly >>interested in is having a boxed drive, in this case, complete with bridge >>controller, which moves from system to system, as I do with my native SCSI >>drives. Unfortunately, there aren't any MFM/RLL drives big enough to be >>interesting. > >Someone should correct me if I'm wrong (I'd be interested in knowing that >I'm wrong!), but the largest capacity MFM geometry is that of the Maxtor >XT2190 (1024 cylinders * 15 heads), giving you just under 150 Mbytes (M=10**6) >after formatting at 19 sectors/track. And the RLL version gets >another 30% or so of capacity. > >Hitachi ESDI drives are available up to 1.5Gbytes or so, and work well on >Emulex ESDI<->SCSI controller. > >All the above was assuming you meant size=capacity. If you meant >size=cubic feet or pounds, I'm sure you could put a 14" CDC SMD drive >on the other side of a SMD<->SCSI controller. > >Of course, large embedded-controller SCSI drives are readily available on the >surplus market these days. 9 Gbyte drives start below $150.00, and >2 Gbyte drives seem to get around $40. > >-- > Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com > Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ > 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 > Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 7 months

Another Univac

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Today I got back to the other Univac bit, the one that got towed away by somebody else while I was slobbering all over the 9200. This is the one that is going to sacrifice some parts to keep another Univac running. But the scrapper now wants some actual cash for it, instead of just a few bucks that he hinted at before. Guess he realized that it still has about the same scrap value even after he pulls out those few parts... Anyway, I had the chance to look at it closely, and I _still_ don't know what it is. I did take notes, and have posted them on a web page. But (#@!$%) I forgot to bring the camera, so I have no pics to show. Here is the URL: http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/univac/whatisit.html Please take a glance at that, and if you can help ID this thing, let me know. There is also the possibility that it could be up for grabs, since I already have more Univac than I know what to do with. I'll probably want it for myself if it is somehow needed by the 9200. Otherwise, it will be available to anyone who will cover the costs of purchase, storage, shipping, etc. If nobody claims it, it might get melted down as soon as one week from today. Bill.

25 years, 7 months

Interesting thing on slashdot

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I work for a small Lawn & Garden sales/repair shop. We keep all the service/sales/inventory records on a TRS-80 Model 3 that we picked up at a flea market for $15 The only "upgrade" is that it now has IBM 360k FH floppy drives, because the doors on the originals were broken off. ///--->>> -Jason Willgruber (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#: 1730318 <http://members.tripod.com/general_1> -----Original Message----- From: ss(a)allegro.com <ss(a)allegro.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:57 PM Subject: Re: Interesting thing on slashdot I forwarded the contest note to a friend who still uses his Altair 8800 to burn ROMs for his company! (He assembled the Altair when it was new) He's planning on entering, but will decline if he wins...because he doesn't want to give up his machine! Stan

25 years, 7 months

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test-drb May 1999