< Dual processors? Another I've never heard of. My 8086 databook says
< that up to four can be wired together, but I've never heard of anyone
< doing it. Did this particular one work well?
You could do more than four, it took a little more work as the simple
parts to do it were roll your own and it was pretty impressive.
later on NCR would have a box with 4 486/50s and it could wail.
Allison
< Hm, interesting. I had always thought that DEC made all of their own si
< Does anybody know when DEC started rolling their own?
They did and also used harris, AMD and others as silicon foundries as
the then dec facility was capacity limited. DEC did most of their own
design or formed partnerships with others. The earliest was the 6100
series. Later PDP11 and special support chips.
< I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
< like this?
the chipset or the Pcode? Pcode was easy as any other asm lang. The
chipset had enough stuff available externally o debug easily.
Allison
Of course, the amount is irrelevant. Particle accelerator experiments
have not been able to split lusers up into any constituent parts.
In fact, they may be the elemental particles of intelligence. Of
course, if Congress funds my new Me^H^H ultra high-powered particle
accelerator, we'll be able to test this once and for all.
In short, even if your rounded up all of the lusers, you couldn't
destroy them.
>luser-antiluser[1] pairs are produced wherever there's enough
(minimal!)
>energy :-)....
>
>[1] An antiluser is not clueful, right!
>
>-tony
>
>
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At 01:18 PM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>< Now *that's* historic! Western Digitals first (and last) CPU effort, th
>< first HLL ever implemented as an instruction set on a chip (afaik, anywa
>< rare as hen's teeth (I'll bet it's scarcity is on the order of the Apple
>< not to mention that it was a *very* early 16-bit system that was actuall
>< available to mere mortals.
>
>BZZT!!! first the PDP-11/03 is the WD chipset, the alpha microsystems
>s100 crate used the same WD chipset. The WD chip set alloed you to create
>your own microcode based cpu. It was the only whole computer WD marketed.
Hm, interesting. I had always thought that DEC made all of their own silicon.
Does anybody know when DEC started rolling their own?
>It didn't run pascal it ran the compiled result P-code which was a stack
>machine.
OIC. Silly Me.
>Scarce, they did make a few. They were expensive though.
>
>< It was a good idea; but as is so common in this business, the old axiom
>< held true:
>< No good deed goes unpunished.
><
>< I think WD lost their shirt on this one . . .
>
>About right. It's was not cheap and hard to expand. However the sales
>of the chipsets to outside producers (DEC and AMS) made them a bundle.
Kinda reminds me of the Moto 88000. The original 88k never gained a
following, and Mot lost their shirt. But much of the 88k's technology
went into the PowerPC, which was a little more successful.
>I'd love to see a manual for the chipset and microcode information.
I think the burning question would be: How does one debug somehting
like this?
Jeff
>
>Allison
>
>Curious. Same goes for people who aren't in a large company and
invent various other things. How did he 'invent' a gun without
owning the necessary tools (at least I doubt a magazine writer would
own this stuff) to process metal? Also, how did Woz make a case for
the Apple ][, etc? Are there companies that take single orders
like this?
There are companies which will build one off prototypes for you. They
are usually listed under something like custom electronics or
fabrication services in the phone book. Building a prototype is not
cheap, the cases, parts, whatever are usually hand machined. Even
plastic cases, since an injection mold would run you over $10K in
startup costs.
Disclaimer: I'm part owner in a company that does this. We have a
substantial investment in machine tools (mills, lathes, welding, plasma
table), a glass shop (neon and cold cathode tubes), plastic machinery
(ovens and router tables), and a paint booth. It's an interesting
business, everything from small computers the size of a deck of cards to
2 ton exhibits for computer companies.
As for Elmer Keith, he didn't start from scratch. He adapted existing
cartridge cases by milling out dies. It's not as complicated as it
sounds, some wildcat (i.e. not production) cartridges can be produced
with nothing more than hand tools.
Jack Peacock
>Would you mind privately e-mailing me and telling me who the heck Elmer
Keith was?
Elmer Keith was a well known gunsmith and magazine writer (was it Guns &
Ammo?). Among other things he's credited with inventing the .44 magnum
pistol round (IIRC) in 1955.
Jack Peacock
O'Toole's Rule states that Murphy (re: Murphy's Law) was an optimist.
I'd do a regular backup in anticipation of the inevitable. I had a Mac
SE with a stiction prone drive that finally died after a couple months
of nudging. The heads can only take so much before they are hopelessly
out of alignmnent.
Marty
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
Date: 8/26/98 3:51 PM
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
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> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: I'm Back!
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From: "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com>
To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers"
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: I'm Back!
Content-Type: text/plain
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--
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:33:01 Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>>
>>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>>
>>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>>some software.
>>
>>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>>
>>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
>I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
>the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
>surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
>
>The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
>
D'oh! I'd almost give my left nut for a N* Horizon. As it is, I know this guy named Ken. I'll gladly give his left nut for one.
Tony
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
At 10:26 AM 8/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote:
>
>> You know, one of the truly cool S-100 8086 boxes that was available
>> for a long time was the H/Z-100. You could get the all-in-one or
>> separate monitor configuration, color, 8', 5.25" floppies, etc. etc.
>> It ran Mess-DOS as well as H-dos (dual processors).
>
>Yeah, that is a really cool box. I have one with the documentation and
>some software.
>
>> I lusted for one when I was a kid. The other day I found a pair of
>> them smashed to bits at a local surplus dealer.
>
>I was offered one locally (California) a couple weeks ago but the buyer
>wasn't interested in selling it at the price I wanted to buy. If you want
>I can hook you up with him. Perhaps he's interested in going through the
>trouble of shipping it for the right price.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Well that's just it, isn't it? I mean, if I had showed up two days before
I could have gotten them (in working condition) for *NOTHING*. It's not
the kind of thing I'd pay serious money for (even if I had it), but I'd
surely grab one if it were going to be junked.
The same junk yard also has a Vector and a distressed N* Horizon.
Jeff
Well, mine still works. It just needs a nudge once in a while at
boot up. Is it going to get worse or can I use it for a while?
> I agree that there is no cure for stiction but on the older 3 1/2" FF
> HDD's I used to gently nudge the spindle flywheel under the drive
> board. This would free the head of the platter goo and typically the
> drive would spin up and boot at which point a complete backup was
> made.
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: Re: I'm Back!
>Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet
>Date: 8/23/98 1:25 PM
>
>
> > certain hard drive of mine won't spin up unless whacked firmly
> > against a table? Is there anything I can do? This is a laptop
drive. >>
> >
> > stiction. nothing you can do about it.
> >
> Actually an ex-friend of mine had a technique to 'sticky' drives. The
> theory goes if it's hosed anyway and you need to get data off it, you
can
> do things to it that you wouldn't ordinarily do and what do you have
to lose?
>
> At any rate, I've used it before and it seems to work on X percent of
> drives that are totally stuck (especially ones that won't start up
even
> when whacked). You put the drive top-down (circuit side up) on top of
a
> nice toasty monitor and just leave it there for several days or weeks.
I
> don't know if this loosens up some lubricant, expands whatever's
sticky
> or what but if you take the drive off the monitor and hook it up
> immediately and start it up immediately...occasionally you can get it
to
> spin up and give you your data.
>
> The opposite of this is a drive I had (old Miniscribe 20 meg SCSI)
that
> would run for about 2 hours, overheat and 'shut down' (it wouldn't
spin
> down...it'd just start giving errors and was generally useless). I
knew
> it was heat because I could extend the time-till-shutdown to about 3
> hours by pointing a small muffin fan at it. I had NO money at the
> time...except for rent money I was flat broke...and couldn't afford to
> replace the drive and...seeing how it was 1991 and I live in the
> backwater state of Iowa, nobody would loan me a replacement. The Mac
SE
> it was in was also out of warranty.
>
> At any rate, since it was winter it was cold outside so I wrapped the
> drive in a plastic bag, sealed it up with duct tape around the SCSI
> cable, set it on the ledge outside the window, closed the window
without
> squishing the cable and sealed up the crack with duct tape. Left the
> machine and the drive on for something like 2 months that way (though
my
> memory is a bit rusty there) until I could save enough money for a
> replacement. I was worried about condensation inside the bag but it
> never caused a problem. At one point, the drive slid off the ledge
and
> was dangling by the SCSI cable and power cable but the duct tape held
it
> firm. It ran like that for several days until I noticed it wasn't on
the
> ledge.
>
> On a related subject, I've seen and had several Syquest 40 meg drives
> that wouldn't work and wouldn't work and wouldn't work until you
flipped
> them upside and then they'd work just fine. Not the cartridge...the
> whole drive.
>
> Which reminds me...I worked at a typesetting shop once and a guy from
> another department walks in and tells me he's accidentally formatted
his
> syquest cartridge and is there any way to get the data back? So, with
a
> room full of people who knew better I told him, "Oh yeah...if you just
> flip the cartridge over, that'll run it backwards so that if you
format
> it again, that'll do the reverse of formatting it and you data will be
> back." I figured he'd know I was kidding but he DIDN'T and starting
> walking away to DO IT! I stopped him fortunately and recovered his
data
> with proper tools. Of course, a couple months later he thrashed the
> innards of a $1500 magneto-optical drive by jamming an 80 meg syquest
> cartridge into it REAL HARD. I patiently explained to him that when
you
> hear snapping sounds and grinding metal you're generally doing
something
> wrong.
>
> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
>
> ------ Message Header Follows ------
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> Subject: Re: I'm Back!
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