Available for trade:
I have two computer memories hard disks of unknown origins. they are
available as the processors on them are 6803s and 6522s in sockets and
good for 6800 hacking. These are 1983-85 vintage.
Also available for trade:
Several copies of CP/M-80 2.2 manuals
The programmers CP/M handbook (Osborne Associates, Andy Johnson-laird)
-- next to cpm alteration guide a must have for bios design. --
mix of other DRI cpm manuals (sid, ddt, mac...), *star manauls (Wordstar,
calcstar...), DbaseII and more.
Roughly 33 boxes of 8" disks with CP/M CPMUG and SIGM volumes on them.
This is a major cache of CPM software only exceeded by what on the WC
cdrom.
Two Visual 1050s, local only too heavy to ship monitor safely. These are
CP/M-3 z80 systems with a 6502 doing the video (with graphics) in a pizza
box case, two 5.25 floppies, provisions for hard disk and matching monitor
and keyboard. I may be able to configure one 10mb hard disk. Disks and
docs (including slipcase manuals) for them as well.
Two 8" disks in cases(power supply) sa800s both working, to heavy to
ship safely (opinion).
One CCS 2200 s100 system (CCS cpu, discus controller, CCS floppy
controller, CCS 4 port serial) and manuals. Circa 1980, shippable at
high cost.
Allison
<Enrico has become SUCH a pain, and it seems like most of the traffic of
<late is a result of his insistence not to let this drop. While he may o
<may not have a valid problem, I no longer care, and based on the way he'
<acting I would suspect the problem is on his end. Because of all of thi
<I'd like to propose a rather drastic solution
<
<Shun Him! (in other words ignore him totally)
This to me is a rehash of the dealing across the pond discussion from
some 3-4 months ago. At the time I was one to say that shipping across
the pond was more aggravation than it was worth even if there was profit
in it. This is an example of why.
Doing trades and shipping internationally are still enough of a annoyance
>from my point of view to avoid them. Enrico's further galvanized me on
that. Shipping is never as trivial as addressing a box and hoping it
gets there and the cost is never trivial, at least to me. So when I do
it I feel I should not be at risk doing it.
Allison
I promise that we CAN. I didn't say anything about willing to. However,
should I come across one, you'll be the first to know.
Tim D. Hotze
-----Original Message-----
From: Enrico Tedeschi <e.tedeschi(a)ndirect.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, April 12, 1998 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Asshole
>Is this a promise?
>
>enrico
>
>Hotze wrote:
> I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE
>> somewhere for you.
>
>> Tim D. Hotze
>
>--
>========================================================
>Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK
>Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile)
>please visit my website at: <http://www.brighton-uk.com>
>========================================================
>
>
<> <> I have a NOS SwTPc 6800 MP-A CPU board. This was the first SS-50
<>
<> OK, I give up. What is the worls is NOS?
<
<I think he means "New Old Stock". It's just lingo for something out of
<production, but still in new, never-used condition.
Makes more sense than Network Operating System NOS and 6800 in he same
breath! ;-)
Allison
<From: Enrico Tedeschi <e.tedeschi(a)ndirect.co.uk>
<You did not say CAN but you said COULD and that, in my bad understanding
<the English language, is an offer. But I am not going to argue about that
<I gladly accept your kind offer now. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you s
Enrico,
First stop it. Second, if you didn't understand it I believe the comment
was sarcastic IE: we could find you a trs-80 case but since you've been
such a pain it has become highly unlikely.
There was no offer to supply one and there was no agreement save for you
trying to instigate one.
A trs-80 with a keypad (one of the earliest options!) is historically
valid. Also historically valid was lower case mod, 2x processor speed up
and several different ones applied to the cassette read. This is an
athoritive statment as I was in the employ for TANDY from 1976 through
1979 and did consulting for another year after that.
If you say you wanted the "first trs80" you should have specified one
that must have the 170069A PWB, and no mods/option installed. That
would have gotten you a 4k L1 machine in the first production series
(under serial number 20,000 or so). You would have had to clarify if
serial number greater than 0 or 1 was acceptable. Your lack of
knowledge of RADIO SHACK computers and how they were sold from
introduction is your loss.
Allison
In a message dated 98-04-12 07:24:27 EDT, you write:
<< >Hotze wrote:
> I'm sure that we could find a TRS-80 model 1 CASE
>> somewhere for you.
>
>> Tim D. Hotze >>
well, i have a model 1 with a keypad that i could take a hacksaw to...
david
Just wanted to let everyone know that Caldera, which now
owns all Digital Research software, has made CP/M freely
available! I discovered this by accident when I went to
download OpenDOS.
Check it out at:
http://www.caldera.com/dos/html/legacyindex.html
They have a link to an unofficial CP/M page with tons of
other software.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Blakeman
RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
Phone: (502) 756-1749 / Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
* Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>> From: "Jeff Kaneko" <Jeff.Kaneko(a)ifrsys.com
>>
>> Guys:
>>
>> Afer looking at a number of responses, Uncle Roger's position
>> seems the most logical to me (besides, one other person suggested
>> this also). I think I'll buy that parts to build this, and just keep
>> it until needed.
>>
>> Building it won't be a priority, though. The MP-A wasn't exactly the
>> best SS-50 CPU available. I have a NOS Thomas Instruments Super CPU,
>> that I've wanted to build for years. Compared with other S-50 boards
>> of that era, it had alot of cool features. I am working on getting a
>> couple of scarce parts for its companion video board.
>>
>> Jeff
From: Bill Yakowenko <yakowenk(a)cs.unc.edu>
>One other thing, before soldering stuff onto that board, make a copy
>of it. (Do photocopiers make decent prints of bare boards?) Once
>a board has chips soldered onto it, it can be a pain to figure out
>which things connect to what. Having a bare-board print could help
>a lot in reverse-engineering the schematic (although I suspect there
>are still MP-A schematics to be had out there). And who knows, you
>might someday want to clone that board.
>
> Cheers,
> Bill.
There are not only schematics, but assembly instructions and a three
color print showing the top traces in red, bottom traces in blue, and
component placement in black.
I picked an MP-Ab bare board and documentation at a hamfest a long
time ago and never used it having gone with Percom's SBC/9 CPU board
and Percom's Electric Window video board.
If anybody absolutely needs copies of the docs, then I will see what
I can do.
Mike
On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:06:32 +0300, "Hotze" <photze(a)batelco.com.bh> wrote:
>>Yeah, but could such a thing be done on Linux/UNIX OS's? I'm guessing
that
{snip}
I'm sure that Microsoft used NT for their implementation, but aren't
there Un*x-based NNTP servers available?? I think that there is a post in
today's digest about it.
Rich Cini/WUGNET
<nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use)
ClubWin! Charter Member (6)
MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
============================================
Sometimes advertising annoys me too. But when I think about it,
maybe I'd rather have those ads than not. Someday maybe I'll get
something I want from one of them if prices stay within reach.
More recently, I've created a related dillemna of my own. I've
been talking with a recycler, trying to convince him to offer whole
boards or computers for sale, rather than just a few chips that he
pulls from them. In doing so, I pointed out that an Altair sold for
so much money recently. Of course, I also pointed out that that
particular sale may have been a fluke, and he shouldn't necessarily
expect that.
The dillemna is this: these are exactly the kind of guys that will
annoy me most. They have no inherent interest in preserving old
machinery, and would have no remorse in melting down an Altair for
twenty-three cents worth of metal. They will more than happy to
behave as kidnappers, demanding ransom with rare artifacts at stake,
happily driving prices up as high as they can.
Of course, the obvious reply is about free-market economics, prices
adjusting to meet demand, and all that. What I'm thinking is, maybe
we should be glad that there is not yet a well-entrenched market for
this old stuff, with guide-books establishing fair pricing and such.
When that happens, scarcity will force all the old machines into the
hands of rich know-nothing collectors, and out of the reach of the
hackers who would cherish them for what they are.
But how do we discourage that from happening, while at the same time
trying to divert machinery from the acid-bath? The only argument
that recyclers seem likely to listen to is about making money. But
each time that argument gets used, it nudges us toward the day when
all of our old computers lie decaying in display cabinets of the
affluent, rather than living and working happily in our own basements.
Ideas?
Bill.
If you want it bad enough everything is possible.
I do belive it is our duty to perform these tasks. An x1541 cable allows you
to connect a commodore disk drive to a PC why not make it the other way
around and use the PC as a disk drive "server" for the C64, VIC20 and C128?
And that is only one thought.
On a wall at Disney world or is that Epcot center (in the ) there is an
inscription that says "If you can dream it, you can build it".
The PC bus is so simple that even custom interface for the really wacky
stuff can be built for a few $. I think Jameco still sells prototype boards
for the ISA bus.
Francois
PS: I know this comes up regularly but... I'm changing ISPs What is the best
way to deal with the address change?
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 6:45 PM
Subject: Creative Retrocomputing Use for 386s and 486s
>
>WIREHEAD'S CRAZY THOUGHT FOR THE DAY
>
>Using old 386 and 486 computers and their parallel ports to replace
>missing peripherals from true retrocomputing systems. Hmmm...
>
>I wonder if a 386, for example, with a properly programmed parallel port
>could emulate...say...a disk drive with a particular interface that you
>can't find anymore.
>
>Interesting thought?
>
>Anthony Clifton - Wirehead
>
At 01:51 4/12/98 -0500, Doug of Yowza wrote:
>This was the only hit I got when looking for information about a portable
>called the "Agilis System". Does anybody know if this system was actually
>produced -- I can't find anything about it beyond the BYTE article (Aug
>1989).
If we're talking about the thing that was a bunch of wedge-shaped pieces
that latched together, there were prototypes -- and I saw one -- but there
were no production computers AFAIK.
__________________________________________
Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org
http://www.chac.org/index.html
Computer History Association of California
< I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards
< being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire
< tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned
< into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging
< from his wall along with some physical core for a PDP 11/44. I
< was too young to have used to implemented this stuff, so I
< can't claim to have actually _used_ such hardware.
802.. eithernet was always 10mbit/s. The 1.5mhz stuff was arcnet. They
are similar in that they are both bus topology using CSMA/CD arbitration.
Eithernet was a colaboration of Digital Eguipment corp, Intel and Xerox
and was in the '70s called DIX eithernet.
Allison
This is NOT a private matter. I think it is my duty to warn others that there
is a conman around.
Regards
enrico
Russ Blakeman wrote:
> Even though you live in the UK you're obviously not British, otherwise one small crack
> at the buy would have been enough and you would have learned by your mistake. Isn't
> this babbling enough already? Even if you got screwed, be a man and fac the fact that
> from now on you need to be more careful. Drop the nasties and get onto enjoying your
> computers.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> Russ Blakeman
> RB Custom Services / Rt. 1 Box 62E / Harned, KY USA 40144
> Phone: (502) 756-1749 Data/Fax:(502) 756-6991
> Email: rhblake(a)bbtel.com or rhblake(a)bigfoot.com
> Website: http://members.tripod.com/~RHBLAKE/
> ICQ # 1714857
> * Parts/Service/Upgrades and more for MOST Computers*
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--
========================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK
Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile)
please visit my website at: <http://www.brighton-uk.com>
========================================================
Could someone tell me the URL of the PDP 8/DECmate archive? I
keep losing it
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
One other thing, before soldering stuff onto that board, make a copy
of it. (Do photocopiers make decent prints of bare boards?) Once
a board has chips soldered onto it, it can be a pain to figure out
which things connect to what. Having a bare-board print could help
a lot in reverse-engineering the schematic (although I suspect there
are still MP-A schematics to be had out there). And who knows, you
might someday want to clone that board.
Cheers,
Bill.
] From: "Jeff Kaneko" <Jeff.Kaneko(a)ifrsys.com>
]
] Guys:
]
] Afer looking at a number of responses, Uncle Roger's position
] seems the most logical to me (besides, one other person suggested
] this also). I think I'll buy that parts to build this, and just keep
] it until needed.
]
] Building it won't be a priority, though. The MP-A wasn't exactly the
] best SS-50 CPU available. I have a NOS Thomas Instruments Super CPU,
] that I've wanted to build for years. Compared with other S-50 boards
] of that era, it had alot of cool features. I am working on getting a
] couple of scarce parts for its companion video board.
]
] Jeff
I realize that this may not quite reach the 10year mark, but not many
people deal with even this old of hardware. (Is there a group out there
for "obsolete" yet non-yet-classic hardware?)
I need to find somewhere to get many i387 chips. (I currently need about
15 to 20 of them.) Anyone know the best place to start looking?
Adam
----------
Adam Fritzler
afritz(a)iname.com
http://www.afritz.base.org
----------
On Apr 11, 23:08, Tony Duell wrote:
> > Some versions and OS vaiations allowed a 2KW IO space. I've run RT-11
> > that way.
>
> Yep, you're right. The standard on Unibus machines was for a 4kW I/O
> space. I've seen PDP11/45's and PDP11/34's that were modified for 2kW I/O
> space, and, indeed, undone the mods. Some Q-bus machines had 2kW I/O
> space as standard, I think.
The 11/03 is the most notable one with a 2KW I/O space, but that's a mod, not
the standard. Quit commonly done, though, because it was only 16-bit address.
> Didn't the 11/24 have an optional unibus map card (the KT24?) I've never
> seen one - my 11/24 is a pretty minimal configuration.
Yes, I've got one, and it is indeed 22-bit. The problem is, I only have the
board set, not the backplane, front panel, etc. I have a spare backplane, and
I once inrtended to rewire it and build a panel, but never found enough info
(the second slot is wired to the first in a non-standard way, to accomodate the
Unibus map connections).
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
<Well, as it happens I don't know whether Radio Shack ever took to
<manufacturing all Model 1 TRS-80s with numeric keypads after some
<date, or whether the numeric keypad was included with the Level II
<BASIC upgrade (don't think so, at least not always), or whether it was
<available without a Level II BASIC upgrade. So I'd have been
<surprised by that keypad too, but for all I know it could have come
<from the factory like that or been upgraded by its original owner, who
<wanted to do lots of numeric data entry on a Level I BASIC system.
Trs-80s early were level-1 basic and 4k ram. Later the ram, LII basic,
and even the numeric keypad were offered as options or as factory models
(often upgraded in the store!). Later ones had the keypad as standard
and 16k as well becuase the 4k rams were actually getting scarce and the
demand was for 16k. At any given point in the model one life where are
variations in configurations such as three different circuit cards,
at least three different keyboards and 5 different rom combinations!
Also LII basic was not required to use either the keypad nor the 16k ram.
For example L1 basic was either a two rom(or eprom) set or a single
rom(eprom). The LII basic was initally a three roms set (eprom) on a
seperate pigtail card but later ones used a two rom set that plugged into
the base board with out the pigtail set. Also both basics were released
using different vendors roms(erproms) that in some cases required a
different dip header config or wire jumpers to use them.
Even I who worked for tandy on the program was surpriced when I got a
LII machine with a single peice extended keyboard (keyboard and numeric
in one unit) that was apparently of late manufacture. It was however
legit factory. Actually a rather pleasent surprize!
Allison
<The PDP11 (at least every PDP11 that I've used) addresses memory by
<bytes. OK, a 16 bit word, like an instruction, does have to lie on at an
<even address, but the 16 bit address that a program generates (before
<translation by the MMU) addresses one of 64K _bytes_
True but, if the memory contained nothig but instructions and addresses
32KW is the limit. Only data or IO is addressed as bytes. This would
seem a trivial item it makes a difference in terms of the total number of
instructions in any given amount of ram. This is more important when
applied to machines with I&D space where the byte addressability can be
exploited for buffers and the like.
<The I/O page (certainly on Unibus PDP11's) is 4 K _words_ long. Without
<an MMU you have 28kW memory, 4kW I/O
Some versions and OS vaiations allowed a 2KW IO space. I've run RT-11
that way.
<Wit hthe MMU enabled you can have 64k Bytes (32 k Words) of memory mapped
<in. In fact you generally don't map the I/O page into user processes,
<since you don't want user processes accessing device registers.
True but then people ahve to understand that the MMU design seperates user
space from system space.
<Even if you have the MMU it's a lot simpler if your program fits into 32
<kW (or 28kW if you want access to the I/O space). Otherwise you have to
<do something like using a software interrupt to change the MMU to a
<different mode.
I tried to keep it simple.
<Unless page K1-11 of my PDP11/44 printset is wrong, the PDP11/44 has 22 b
<addressing. The PDP11/45 does, indeed, only have 18 bit, alas...
With the exception of the 11/70 I thought most of the unibus machines were
limited to 18bits, for some devices that can be a limit. My interaction
with U-bus machines is limited to the 11/70 and a 11/34 all my PDP11 time
is with Q-bus (11/03, falcon, 11/23, 11/23A, 11/23b, 11/73) which has
sufficient enough variation to track.
Allison
< Allison, this was private email, but I figure this may be
OOPs, though I did check the header as classiccmp...?
< like the 11/23 and 11/73 line should run this BSD variant as
< well... what I want to know is, did the kernel fit into 64K in
< one segment, or did they spread the kernel across segment
< bounderies? If so, how?
The kernel never fit in 64kb as the pdp11 is word addressed also the MMU
operates on 4kb pages. Also the top 4kbytes are IO space. So the idea of
the kernel fitting in 64k is not relevent. The real question was did it
fit in the 11/44 or 45 who only had 256k (18bit addresses) space. The
11/23 and later Qbus machines were Q22 (4mb address space). The larger
space means more available ram that can be used without resorting to
swapping (or at least less frequently).
Also PDP11s come in two other flavors, those with I&D space and those
without. The 11/23 and 11/34 are those without. The 44, 45, 70, 73,
83 and others have I&D which means that Instructions and Data spaces can
be seperate doubling the amount of memory available. Added to that is
user and system space (memory protection between processes). So it's
possible for a PDP11 to actaully address four distinct areas of memory
that are non-overlapping and all 64k in size. Practical considerations
limit it to less than that but it's nearly so and likely they would
overlap as well.
< I mean, I could see overlays (in the kernel... blech!), but I
< don't remember the 11 supporting long long jumps... and address
< value was 16 bits, period. Still, I was never great at 11
True of all segmented address machines. The larger 256k or 4mb space is
broken into pages of which up to 8 are mapped into the 16bit address
space. To do a long jump what is really done is the cpu remapped the
needed page into logical space and does a 16bit jump to that page.
The top 4 bits determine what page register is addressed and the contents
of that register is appended to the lower 12 bit to form the larger
address needed to manage a 4mb space.
It takes 8 MMU registers and uses the content of the reg plus the 16bit
address to form an address in physical space.
< assembly. Could someone here give a good detailed account of
< PDP-11 segment mapping support? Could my stack and register
< values be retained and follow while moving from segment to
< segment? And how the hell did you tell the memory manager you
< wanted to pop to another segment, anyway?
yes! A detailed discussion would wear out my fingers typing it.
Sufficient that it was able to address more than 64k and while different
than the 8088 or 286 in both cases the 16 bit address space was extended
by argumenting the basic addressing and not extending the basic register
set.
I'm currently building a system using the z80 cousin called the z280 that
can address 16mb of ram and the basic addressing is still 64k argumented
by a MMU.
Allison
> I seem to remember early Ethernet interface VAX quad cards
> being around 1.5Mbps... not sure if it was think ether, vampire
> tap stuff... This would have been before ethernet was turned
> into a 'standard.' One guy I know has one of these hanging
That is a DMC-11. It was an early networking card before Ethernet. It
was point to point, 4 wire coax, synchronous serial at something around
1.5Mbps. The DMC-11 had an onboard bit slice processor (might have been
a Signetics 8X305, not sure) to handle the packet assembly/disassembly.
BTW the KMC-11 was a generic DMC-11 that was user programmable, if you
wanted to roll your own protocols. I used a pair of DMC-11s in 1977 to
network two PDP-11/34s with an early version of DECnet. I don't recall
that DEC had any multi-drop type network interface at that time, except
maybe for X.25 PADs.
< Alright, so what we have is the last 4KW used up for stack
< space, register mapping, and IO mapping. I would guess the
and also boot proms. Default boot on PDP11 is 173000Q. The first
page is where all the vectors for the interrupts and traps are.
< MMU... do I have it right? Even on a machine with a full
< 22bits of address lines on the backplane, like an 11/73, the
< CPU still only has a 16bit address space. The faq doesn't make
< it terribly clear what happens if you want to open up any
< arbitrary window.
Think of the 4mb (q22) as linear physical space. At any time the CPU/MMU
can allocate contigious or scattered blocks of that space as logical
physical space. To do a "long jump" a local jump to a system space is
done, memory management code is run and then a jump to the now available
code (in logical space) is done. One of the background jobs would be to
swap out old segments that are unused to make room for current processes
and swap them back if the non current process should wake up.
The cpu is always in logical 16bit space but the windows (multiple)
can be moved around.
An ascii graphic would show the CPU 16bit space as several blocks
mapped to multiple blocks scattered in a larger space. The cpu
literally never leaves the range of a 16bit space but instead trade
out chunks of it for different ones out of an available pool. You never
actually jump put of logical space only shuffle what physical memory is
part of that space.
Allison
who bloody cares?! people, deal with your own problems; I dont want to hear
about them on the list. I have enough to deal with myself!
david, back to deleting stupid messages <again>
In a message dated 98-04-10 17:47:45 EDT, you write:
<< Without comment
enrico
Anonymous wrote:
>
> Are you a fucking idiot, Limey? Cut the damn crying on the mailing list or
you might just open a message one day and have your whole machine become
instantly erased...Not a threat, a promise.
--
========================================================
Enrico Tedeschi, 54 Easthill Drive, Brighton BN41 2FD, UK
Tel/fax(+01273) 701650 (24 hours) and 0498 692465 (mobile)
please visit my website at: <http://www.brighton-uk.com>
========================================================
On Apr 10, 21:13, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Subject: gcc for VAX VMS
> This touches on yesterdays VS2000 discusion. Somehow I got lucky today and
> found a pointer to a VAX version of gcc at
> ftp://ftp.cco.caltech.edu/pub/rankin/ of course I'm still trying to find a
> VAX VMS version of tar and gzip so I can install it.
Take a look at
http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/freeware/cd.html
Near the bottom of the page you'll find the "Tools" section, which includes
zip, unzip, gzip, and vmstar. Unzip, gunzip, and vms tar are also on Digital's
ftp site. There's a pointer at
http://www.digital.com/info/vms-freeware.html
or ftp directly from ftp://ftp.digital.com/pub/VMS/vmstar-vax.exe
Now, can someone remind me of the URL for VMS hobby licensing so I can do
something about my MicroVAX?
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
