References: <199706200702.AAA08312(a)lists.u.washington.edu>
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Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the Commodore drives ARE 300 RPM like
most of the others, many 1541 flywheels have the speed-calibaration
diagram on them (use fluorecent light to determine correct RPM).
154s and the lot have software&hardware to adjust the density on
tracks so more data can be stuffed in inner tracks and allow the outer
ones to spread out. No special speed involved here.
It is because of this that many computers with dumb drives can't read
the 1541 format (including Amiga!) the controller cards seem to be
limited in this fasion. Thus there is quite a demand for 1541 drivess
and (pre-converted) .d64 files in the 64 emulator community. ;)
I think all the 5.25" Commodore drives were based on the variable
density initiated in the 2040 DOS. My Complete Commodore Inner Space
Anthology has differing sector counts on tracks on all the models (4040,
2031, 1541, 8050, 8250/SFD-1001) The hard drives (9060 & 9090) seem to
be uniform thoough.
Things changed with the 1581 disk (3.5") which uses a variation of the
MFM format, and can be readable with PC/Amiga computers (with the proper
software, of course.)
--
Taking quotes from that LA article on collecting:
> Most of these early machines and programs, which didn't work very
>well when they were new [IBM PC,MS/DOS], are even more troublesome to maintain now
>[Windows 95]--and have been rendered obsolete by wave after wave of new equipment.
>[Macintosh, Amiga, NeXT, etc., etc.]
Yep, translates to modern-day very well.
> Greelish, a computer repairman, has spent about $2,600 in recent
>years building a collection of 35 computers, mostly by trolling for
>bargains on the Internet.
$2,600 for only 35 machines???? Anyone have his address, I have some
64s for him!
--
"Altairless" Larry Anderson
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Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/
Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363
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Here's some TI/99 stuff that might interest some people.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Hole In The Wall now offers a small (but growing) selection of TI99/4A
parts and equipment as a service to the TI community. Our Web site
should be up within 10 days.
TI Peripheral Expansion Boxes - $40
TI99/4A consoles (black and silver) - $27.50 (orig. box, manuals, RF)
TI RS232 Cards - $40
TI Disk Controller Cards (SSSD) - $20
TI 32x8 Memory Expansion - $25
TI Writer (orig. cart, disk and manual in binder) - $10
Much more to come! Email for more info.
--
<= KEITH BERGMAN =>
The Glass Eye / Hole In the Wall Enterprises
PIT Magazine / Chicken Dog
kbergman(a)toltbbs.com
"just want a way not to be what gets sold to me" - Jawbox
--
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
In a message dated 97-06-20 18:10:08 EDT
> Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
> > > > I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got
> > > > 3...
I suggest that a Classic Computer Rescue team head out to Kai's house and
rescue two of those Altairs. They could them be put up for adoption and
ultimately be given a loving home where they will be receive the INDIVIDUAL
care and nurturing that they deserve. :-)
Lou
In a message dated 97-06-20 03:16:54 EDT, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> Hmm. One of my friends got a LOT of apple II stuff from a business that
> > went under. One of the things he got was an 8" CP/M disk. I'm gonna go
> > try to get my hands on it. (It said CP/M on it). It may be
> > destroyed/gone by now. This was a year or two ago, before I got
> > interested in old stuff... Any way to tell what system it's for without
> > being able to read it?
The disk could be for an Apple system. 8" drive controllers where offered for
the Apple II line back in 1980 because of the huge (for the time) capacity of
DSDD 8" disks. I had a Lobo controller hooked up to a Franklin 1000 and two 8
inchers and it was pretty impressive. I eventually replaced the drives with a
10 meg Corvus hard drive (cost $5000). I've been trying to locate an 8"
controller for my Franklin 1000 for quite a while but haven't had any luck.
Lou
At 12:36 AM 6/20/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever.
>This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this Haddock
>guy start trying to price things out.
I think it's as someone said; at the time the book was written, Apple II's
were still in strong demand, esp. from the school market. My girlfriend's
school still uses and maintains a fleet of II's. (Schools simply cannot
afford to buy lots of new computers.) (Ask me, if you're interested, about
how macs ended up in her classroom.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/
In a message dated 97-06-18 02:16:46 EDT, you write:
<< His e-mail address is Mikeooo1(a)aol.com and he left his phone number for
me:
(201) 331-1313.
Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this.
Sam
>>
I would be interested in this.
Kelly Fergason
KFergason(a)aol.com
I'd like to buy. Can I reserve it? Please e-mail me with your address and
I'll send you a check. (woukd you prefer money order? some sort of trade? I
have scads of old computer stuff.)
Manney
----------
> From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> To: Manney
> Subject: FS: BOOK The History of Computers
> Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 1:52 PM
>
> For Sale:
>
> The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy-
> by Les Freed
> ZD press
> ISBN 1-56276-275-3
> all color and lots of pictures and illustrations
>
> $12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is
$24.95)
>
Sam,
I don't own any computers that use EBCDIC, but I use them every day at
work. EBCDIC - extended binary coded decimal interchange code is the
character set used on most (if not all) IBM mainframes and midrange
systems. (IBM S/390, S/36, S/38, AS/400 etc.) This set has its roots
in punched cards (and prior) and really makes more sense when viewed
>from that perspective vs. that of the way things are today. ASCII -
American National Standard Code for Information Interchange.
Back when I was in college, an instructor stated it this way:
(Speaking about the need for a uniform way to share info across
machines.)
"There are two ways to obtain a standard in the industry. The first
is to get a big committee together and have all parties involved agree
on what it should be (ASCII). Or, be the largest company in the
industry, do it your own way and force everyone else to adopt your way
of thinking.
Dan
---Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> wrote:
>
>
> DOes anyone have a computer which uses the EBCDIC character set,
rather
> than ASCII (did I get the acronym right? what does it stand for
anyway)?
>
> Just curious.
>
>
> Sam
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete,
Writer, Jackass
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
> Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like?
> Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, f
> it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address li
> to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in
> stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine.
Actually a 8ksram and a 8kprom would do it. Or better yet a 2 or 8k EEprom.
That this is slow enough you could use the EEprom for sram! (the slow parts
was 20us and the real fast one was 10us (single byte instruction).
The real annoying part is capturing all the muxed status and syncing it.
Making the front pannel logic is the real work, it wouldn't be right without
the FP!
> What do ya think?
Tim, your a sick puppy. It's got style!
Allison
At 06:30 PM 6/18/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote:
>> | ----------
>> | From: James Willing
>> | Subject: Re: Mark 8
>> |
>> | On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Marvin wrote:
>> |
>> | > I need another project :) and I was thinking about building the Mark
>> | > 8 computer. Somewhere, I seem to recall that someone was having the
>> | > board sets for this computer made up, does anyone out there know
>> | > or remember who might be doing this?
>> |
>> | That would be me...
>>
>> If you get one of these up and running, I have a Scelbi book, "Space
>> Wars for the 8008 Microprocessor" with full hex code listings...
>
>I also have the three books -
>
> An 8008 Editor Program
> Machine Language Programming for the 8008
> Assembler Programs for the 8008
>
>I am such a packrat 8-)
>
>BC
>
>
Here I go volunteering again. Could those books be scanned/ocr'd? I'm sure
that the original authors wouldn't care, even if they did admit to writing
them. I have all the hardware and software to do that.
I have a softspot in my heart (and my head) for the 8008. That was my first
computer. I couldn't afford to buy something like the Mark 8, so I designed,
and built it, myself. By the time I was ready to retire it, I had an S100
video card (SSM), and a 9-track tape drive, running one track serial at 5k
baud. Used my own designed r/w amps, even. It ran great, just real slow.
I still have the CPU chip from that machine, holding down a piece of foam.
Seing these posts about the Mark 8 made me nastolgic. If I could get enough
data, I might consider building a new machine with that old "first CPU" chip.
Today it would look a LOT different. Let's see, what WOULD it look like?
Start with a PAL to generate the oddball clocks, and some misc decoding, for
it, then throw a 32k skinnydip SRAM at it (OK, you can tie one address line
to ground to limit it to 16K), an 8K EPROM (since that's what I've got in
stock), say, an 8251 for serial I/O, and you've got a basic machine.
What do ya think?
Tim Olmstead
timolmst(a)cyberramp.net
At 06:57 19/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, steve wrote:
>
>> At 06:10 13/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> >Of course this all assumes that I *have* a PC.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><snip>
>
>
>Besides, I was talking about CP/M for the Commodore 1541 drive. That's a
>multi-speed drive that uses GCR encoding, not MFM. Try writing THAT with
>22DISK on your PC-clone.
>I used to know that only C=1570 and C=1571 were capable to read and write
CP/M disks in a proper way. (GCR+MFM)
By the way anyone else apart me owning a C=1570 here?
Ciao
> The oldest CPU type I have is an NEC 8080A. Still trying to figure out
> how to make use of it. The legs are pretty corroded (used to live in
> humid climates).
I could give you a dozen of them (all pre '80 date code or older!). You
need other parts to build a system using it. Minimally you need 8224 clock
chip and a 8bit latch or 8228 to get the status signals off the buss. The
rest if perpherals and memory.
Others from that (pre 1980) era I have:
IMSAI IMP-48 (works but, I really need a manual or schematic!!!) circa '79
If you've never seen one it's a small board with relays and opto IO for
control use, tty interface, cassette IO led display and keyboard for
programming(in hex!).
National SC/MP 8a500 cpu(late '78)
RCA1802(base cosmac elf 1979, board from the first PE article)
6502(old part)
TI9900 chip on board(technico super starter system)
moto 6800D1 kit('75-76)
LSI-11/03 card that's a tad older them most of those (functional too).
I also have a small system using the National nibbleBASIC (8070) chip in
1980.
Allison
> I know - this will be something I do in Electronics class next year.
> While everyone else makes an oscillator or something stupid, I'll build
> an Imsai!
You laugh, I did something along that line (1971) only it was a solidstate
Oscope of my own design. I wanted the class for acces to the tinshop so I
could fabricate the steel shields(for the crt) and chassis. If it were
three years later it would have been a mark-8!
While off the subject...
I had a Horizon up in '78 and put the NS* version of the pascal P-system.
Since I knew zip about pascal I decided to take a course that used pascal,
so happens it was data structures. Blew the proffessors mind when after
going on about the 1180 the class would use for assignments I asked if I
could use my own system if it conformed to Niklus&wirth. Seems he didn't
believe me until I brough the whole mess (left the printer behind) with me
the next class and set it up! It was the begining of the revolution as
Apples were also just starting to be seen. A year later that declaration of
I happen to have a suitable system was no longer an item of skepticism.
Sorta like the pocket calc in my EE junior year.... ;-)
Allison
> Define "plans". I have full sets of the schematics for the units in my
> collection (as I suspect many do), but if you are talking about the
> mechanical drawings for things like the case, boards, etc., I am not awar
> of those ever being made available.
The case was a standard box available at the time. Some of the inside
brackets were custom as were the layouts. I've never seen a full printset,
and I wonder if there really was.
Allison
For Sale:
The History of Computers -A Family Alubum of Computer Genealogy-
by Les Freed
ZD press
ISBN 1-56276-275-3
all color and lots of pictures and illustrations
$12 (shipping included within the United States, original price is $24.95)
| Does anyone still have the PLANS for one?
If you mean schematics, yes. The Altair was built from a kit, not
plans. You may be thinking of the Scelbi Mark 8, which was built from
plans.
Kai
> Does anyone still have the PLANS for one?
Yes but I'd build an imsai!
The altair was first but not that nice technically. Also the case, front
pannel and many componenets would have to be fabricated.
I happen to have a spare case and power transformer.
I'd love to get an imsai or 8800b box so I could fully retire(not sell) the
altair I have.
Allison
I'm kind of curious how many Altairs we have on this list. I've got
3... I know that Jim has at least 2. Who else?
| From: Marvin
| Someone that
| contacted me recently said that they had sold their Altair for
$3000.
Whom?
| Another story I heard (true?, I don't know) was that someone
advertised
| their Altair on the net for $4000. This person was flamed for
asking so
| much, and his only comeback was that it had already sold.
If this happened, it had to have been before 3/95, since there is no
reference to it in DejaNews.
| There was a
| reference in TCJ by one of the editors(?) that they wouldn't
be
| surprised by the price reaching $10,000.
I agree, though it's going to take a few years. People tend to acquire
items that they wanted when they were in high school or college. Those
people are now in their early forties, and that syndrome doesn't really
get going full steam until 50-60 (my father, with 7 Corvettes, is a
perfect example). I'd put the Altairs at $10K+ in 10 years. They sky's
the limit in 20 years, maybe $100K (all in today's money of course).
One reason for the expected price skyrocket is the number of people like
me (and several others on this list) who acquire them and will never
sell them, thus depleting the market.
Kai
Does anyone know where I can find equipment accessories for the PC8500
(NEC) laptop?
Thanks!
Mike
----------
From: Sam Ismail
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Collector Article
Date: Friday, June 20, 1997 3:36AM
On Thu, 19 Jun 1997, Uncle Roger wrote:
> At 03:31 PM 6/19/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >prices listed for Apple equipment in "A Collector's Guide to Personal
> >Computers and Pocket Calculators" are quite high, possibly since the
book
>
> Apple II+ is quoted as $100-$200, the IIe $125-250. The Disk II is
listed
> as $75-150. Haddock's book is way high on some things, (seems) way low
on
> others, and, occassionally, is right on the money. Nonetheless, it *is*
> interesting, has some nice pictures, and is probably a good reference to
have.
Gee, then I have an Apple bonanza worth $2000 in my garage. Whatever.
This is what I am dreading of this hobby, that assholes like this
Haddock
guy start trying to price things out.
Sam
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer,
Jackass
>> I managed to get DOS 3.3 by finding a game or something that ran on
>> DOS 3.3, halting it with Control-C to get to the Applesoft BASIC
>> prompt, then using the file commands such as INIT to make a new disk.
>> I can't remember if DOS 3.3 has a built-in command that will copy a
>> disk... There's probably a way to do it.
>
>It's not built-in, but the DOS 3.3 distributions have the Intbasic
>program COPY which will do what you want. If you've got one of
>these crippled II+'s or later that only have Applesoft, you can
>still use COPYA.
I'm wondering if there's a way to hack code to get it to copy without
any System Master programs. I don't remember. I know the easy way out
would be just to get the System Master, but now I'm just curious. :)
--
Andy Brobston brobstona(a)wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW***
http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html
My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College
as a whole.
At 18:08 09/06/97 -0400, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, 2 Jun 1997, George Lin wrote:
>
>> At 11:24 PM 6/1/97 -0700, you wrote:
>> ><...>
>> >> accessories including a CP/M cartridge for C64
>> >
>> >A CP/M _carthridge_? Awesome.
>>
>> I just tried it yesterday. Pretty cool. The Z80 is in the cartridge. The
>> package comes with a CP/M 2.2 diskette for 1541 and a condensed CP/M manual
>> by Commodore (copyright 1983). There is a K-Mart price tag on the original
>> box that reads $54. Not bad.
>
>This reminds me... I also have a Z80 cartridge for the C64. But it's not
>the one from Commodore. It's from a company called DATA 20 Corporation.
>
>I haven't been able to get it to work. It has what looks like a connector
>for a power supply on the back, but I didn't get the PS with it. It also
>came without any disks, though it did have a cassette in the box with it,
>which says "Use side A for Commodore 64/Use side B for VIC 20".
>
>It's a Z-80 Video Pak, that combines the Z80 processor AND an 80-column
>display adapter into one (big fat) cartridge.
>
>To quote from the box:
>
> The Z-80 Video Pak brings the convenience of an 80 column screen and
> the power of a CP/M compatible operating system to the Commodore 64.
>
> Designed to be used with a monitor, the Z-80 Video Pak lets the
> Commodore 64 owner switch to a 40 or 80 column screen in black and
> white, or back to the standard color screen. All switching is done
> through software and no cables need to be moved.
>
> The Z-80 Video Pak has its own Z-80 microprocessor and operating
> system which allows the 64 to run CP/M software formatted for the
> Commodore 1541 disk drive. A Terminal mode which brings communication
> with central data bases is included at no extra cost. The Z-80 Video
> Pak also supports the advanced screen handling features of all Video
> Pak models such as erase to the end of line, erase to end of screen,
> and dump screen to printer.
>
>
>If anyone out there knows this thing's power requirements (AAAGH! Another
>wall-wart!) and where to get CP/M disks in 1541 format, please tell. :)
>
>
>Doug Spence
>ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
>
>CPM DISKS Easy Download em from the net, make a 1541 lead to connect the
1541 to PC its in the DOX on C64s Emulator, Use a util on the PC called
Star Commander and copy stright to a real 1541. Easy!!! If you need more
info Mail ME..
Steve
Emulator BBS
01284 760851
Keeping 8-Bit ALIVE
Ok, here's the deal. Marvin & I are both in contact with a guy who says
he has 14 AIM65 units. Hopefully you all have been paying attention and
have read the messages describing what this is. Marvin & I are of course
both interested in buying one, and we dicussed the possibility that
others in the discussion would be interested as well. We feel that if
enough of us get together and offer this guy a bulk buy-out, we can get a
good price from him. Marvin & I are talking about $20 a piece as of
now. If this is of interest to anyone, I can give you his e-mail address
and you can ask specific questions, but make sure you mention you are a
part of this one-shot buyout so that we get a good deal. I think first
we should get a count of who is all interested and then approach the
guy. He's in New Jersey, and I don't think shipping should be more than
$5 per unit.
His e-mail address is Mikeooo1(a)aol.com and he left his phone number for me:
(201) 331-1313.
Please reply if you are interested in going in together on this.
Sam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
