- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by kyrrin＠jps.net

And that request is: Would Sam, Wirehead Prime, and 'Joe' PLEASE move your mass argument to private E-mail? You can bash each other all you want over there. If the noise level doesn't drop soon, I may fade away as well. Gad, Usenet is less noisy at the moment... -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

1
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Apple - PC

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

the trackstar was made years ago in the late 1980s. in fact, radio shack used to have it in the catalog for sale! you might want to check out ebay.com as they did have some of these cards for ~$20 about two months ago. it's a full length isa card that you plug a standard disk ][ into. dont know about video though. supposedly they were quite compatible and one could run just about anything on that card. david, CONTINUING to delete 99+44/100% of ccmp posts... In a message dated 98-03-19 08:05:04 EST, you write: << Just out of curiorisity, were these made by Diamond Multimedia, the ones that now make the modems, video cards, DVD drives, etc.? What are the chances of finding one? Around how much would they cost? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze ><> > There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: ><> [snip] ><> and... > >How about the DIAMOND TRACKSTAR128, basically it put an applle in the >ISA bus and allowed apple and non apple disks. Looking at the manual >transfers to the PC side of the world are possible as well as running >APPLE software. > >Allison >>

28 years, 3 months

1
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Apple - PC

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Is there a way to transfer files from an Apple II to a PC? I have a //c. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
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OK, Time to make an attempt at ending this...

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Hmm... I see one party causing the problem... *clickity click* One copy, Ami-chan no hatsukoi, check mqueue, give it time... Ah, darn, stopped in the queue. "sendmail -q"... we have a flakey link here... OK. Sam won't be reading email for a while... BTW, That's *NOT* a mail bomb. He asked for it. I've been ^Qing thru all that crap all morning, and I'm sick of it. He wasted a lot of my time, so I'll waste a few of his. Besides, it's only about... *clicky click* 39 meg. -------

28 years, 3 months

1
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More of Sam's Rantings Re: Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd)

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi Everyone, Well Sam's not going to let it drop. I have not replied to the last three of his messages in order to try and let this die down but he's determined to continue try a prevoke a response. Now he apparently thinks that it's inappropriate to post anything about the operation of this list (unless he posts it, of course). But I won't bother to responde to his rantings. I'll just post it here and you can use your own judgement. Joe At 04:13 PM 3/18/98 -0800, you wrote: > >You are seriously off-topic (again). For your possible enlightenment, >here is a FREE copy of the FAQ: > > >1.1 What is ClassicCmp? > >It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center >on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place >for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions >dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are >often better handled in private e-mail. > >1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? > >Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it >seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. > >1.3 What is a Classic Computer? > >_Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. >This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to >work OK, so I've kept it. > >1.4 Who runs this thing? > >That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu. > >1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? > >Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond >to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still >probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of >mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd >user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the >messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get >back to you eventually. > >1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. > >I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show >me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large >as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously >there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see >a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing >anyway. > >1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? > >The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average >seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message >load peaks for as much as a week. > >[][][][][][][][][] > >2.1 What can I talk about? > >Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many >people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might >want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a >good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before >posting. > >2.2 Can I talk about PCs? > >Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be >aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC >newsgroups. > >2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes > with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? > >There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for >micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". > >2.4 Can I post advertisements? > >Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, >use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not >you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there >are members of this list in a number of different countries. > >2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? > >Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, >would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on >usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their >machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that >they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to >find yourself a computer. > >2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. > >Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't >have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic >electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz >with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking >questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check >the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking >out!" exactly means. > >2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? > >It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive >section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). > >2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! > (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) > >Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop >any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. > >2.9 Can I post trophy lists? > >Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise >but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be >guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods >if you actually need info on them, not just to show off. > >2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? > >Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of >people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now >that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. > > >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Joe wrote: > >> Hi Everyone, >> >> I have tried to drop this arguement with Sam but he insists on >> perpetuating it. It may be embarrassing to read this stuff but it should be >> kept public since it does concern the operation of this list. Sam is now >> complaining that this tread is off topic for this list, but he convenently >> forgets that he is the one that started it! In his latest tirade, Sam has >> accused me of using this list for profit (I wish!). I should note that >> selling items on the list is permitted according to the FAQs, and yes I >> have probably made a grand total of $50 in the last six months (net not >> profit). Anthony is right, Sam seems to be interested in nothing more than >> harassing others and tearing down this list. >> >> What I would like to know is who appointed Sam to police this list? >> >> Joe >> >> At 05:59 PM 3/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >> > >> > >> >Again I warned you. I was responding publicly to a public posting by the >> >OWNER AND MODERATOR of the mailing list, Sam. You are so out of line >> >here that I can't believe anymore that your purpose on the mailing list >> >is to do anything other than to harass others. >> > >> >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> > >> >PS: And I'm not going to allow you to do this privately...even if it >> >does annoy the group because I think everyone needs to see what kind of >> >person you really are and how petty and small-minded your little games >> >are becoming. I think this has bearing on any project that you undertake >> >and the extent to which others should participate in it. >> > >> > ---------- Forwarded message >> >---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:03:04 -0800 (PST) >> >From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> >> >To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> >> >Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... >> > >> > >> >Again, you are in violation of Section 1.1 of the FAQ which reads: >> > >> > >> >1.1 What is ClassicCmp? >> > >> >It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center >> >on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place >> >for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions >> >dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are >> >often better handled in private e-mail. >> > >> >Please post only on-topic messages in the future. Your cooperation would >> >be greatly valued by all. >> > >> >Have a nice day! >> > >> >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: >> > >> >> >> >> Personally I think the list is great and have noticed NO difficulties >> >> whatsoever in its administration. >> >> >> >> I would hate to see it pass into the hands of someone who clearly does >> >> not have the best interests of others in mind but merely wishes to >> >> control it for the purposes of ego inflation. >> >> >> >> I think the list is wonderful Bill and, aside from one person who is >> >> clearly incapable of behaving in a rational and courteous manner, should >> >> remain precisely as it is. >> >> >> >> That's my two cents worth... >> >> >> >> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> >> >> > If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else >> >> > would like to take over with their own listserv, it would >> >> > be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. >> >> > If you can live with the current level of administration, >> >> > I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >Sam Alternate e-mail: >> dastar(a)siconic.com >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---- >> >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, >> Jackass >> > >> > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 >> > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! >> > >> > >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > >

28 years, 3 months

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Finding machines (was: Question for the Faq)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

>perhaps the original requestor was thinking more in terms of >geographical areas...? sure, thrift stores, but which are your personal >favourites? etc. That would be telling. ;) But seriously, specific locations don't do much good unless you know what general area you're dealing with. (I can offer some advice for San Francisco, but I rarely leave the City, and when I do, I'm generally more interested in finding a) miniature land rovers, b) donald duck stuff, c) good food, d) good beer (not necessarily in that order.)) For San Francisco, though, the places I go are: HMR - interesting stuff, fascinating place, but know what stuff is worth. Thriftcenter (in Belmont?) - on El Camino, just south of Morrison's, the teacher store (Holly exit? off 101?) (This is the place I go when rachel says "I need more sentence strips; I'll only be 10 minutes." I know I've got an hour, and she's spend more than I will.) Nifty-Thrifty - Across from the cow palace. Lots of refurbed PC's, older PC cases, occassionally some good stuff. (Passed up a bunch of Osborne 1's for $10 each, just before I started collecting. <kick> <kick> <kick>) All the surplus places in the Valley -- Weird Stuff, Haltek, Halted, Action, etc. That's about it, except the little thrift shop by my house that never has anything. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Apple - PC

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

There's another option. For those who have access to the web, check out: http://www.sequential.com/cross.htm . But, to me, the price is a tad high. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, March 19, 1998 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Apple - PC > ><> > There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: ><> [snip] ><> and... > >How about the DIAMOND TRACKSTAR128, basically it put an applle in the >ISA bus and allowed apple and non apple disks. Looking at the manual >transfers to the PC side of the world are possible as well as running >APPLE software. > >Allison >

28 years, 3 months

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Apple - PC

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Just out of curiorisity, were these made by Diamond Multimedia, the ones that now make the modems, video cards, DVD drives, etc.? What are the chances of finding one? Around how much would they cost? Thanks, Tim D. Hotze ><> > There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: ><> [snip] ><> and... > >How about the DIAMOND TRACKSTAR128, basically it put an applle in the >ISA bus and allowed apple and non apple disks. Looking at the manual >transfers to the PC side of the world are possible as well as running >APPLE software. > >Allison >

28 years, 3 months

1
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Apple - PC

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> > There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: <> [snip] <> and... How about the DIAMOND TRACKSTAR128, basically it put an applle in the ISA bus and allowed apple and non apple disks. Looking at the manual transfers to the PC side of the world are possible as well as running APPLE software. Allison

28 years, 3 months

1
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VT320 help.

by COAKLEY＠AC.GRIN.EDU

I use a VT320 a lot, so when I found one in a thrift store this week for $2, I decided to pick it up. Unfortunately, it's not in perfect health. If I plug it in without a keyboard, I get (predictably) a "Keyboard not present" error. If I plug it in with a keyboard attached, I get a screenful of garbage (the same character in a recognizable pattern, but garbage nonetheless). Bad keyboard? Wrong keyboard cable? Dead terminal? Ideas for further testing? Next prject: make it talk to my Linux box. Thanks, -- Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley(a)ac.grin.edu Station Manager, KDIC 88.5 FM CBEL: Xavier OH Wow, this is global. -Mtn Goats

28 years, 3 months

1
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a manual for the northstar advantage

by disio＠milenium.com

i would know if you have a hardware manual, or where i can find one. if don't, do you know which is the meaning of: load system 00000010 hardware failure I think it's a bios failure, if so where i can find one. thanks in advance. Disio(a)milenium.com

28 years, 3 months

1
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.LZ compression??

by sethm＠loomcom.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1205 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980318/c6309875/at…

28 years, 3 months

2
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Hitachi 2.8" (was Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...)

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

Talking about disks for the Mattel Aquarius... Tony wrote... >on one edge. On the 3.5" disk the shutter can be easily opened >accidentally, and more importantly it can spring apart on the inside >edge. [snip/snip] OK, the floppies I have are NOT as described in Tony's last letter. These here disks are 77mm square, and do NOT have a shutter protecting the surface of the disk. I am sure the shutter is not missing; I have 10 disks all the same. From the circular midsection with a rectangular opening all the way to the edge, the access area on this disk looks like a large keyhole. Yet, the style is similar to a standard 3.5" floppy A side-note; these disks are advertised at having 144K unformatted capacity. Those interested can see the disks and drive at... http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/aquarius/aqdisk.jpg http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/aquarius/floppy.jpg I understand the drive is top-opening, like a CD-player, but I've yet to confirm this. I wonder if anybody knows of any other drives with this mechanism (floppies only!!) Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

2
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Apple - PC

by zmerch＠northernway.net

;-) Clearing the snow from my glasses, I saw Kai Kaltenbach typed: >There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: [snip] >2. Obtain an "Apple II-on-an-ISA-card" device (rare, no longer manufactured, >various brand names) Tho I'm not much of an Apple person (unless someone would like to send me a G3 for free... ;-) there is a place on the web that has some "Diamond Trackstar //e" boards for sale -- for $19 each (plus shipping, I believe). Dunno if that's a good price or not (or if the nomenclature is totally correct -- again, apologies for not being an Apple Nut -- CoCoNut is more my style) but it seems they have (at least) several... For the Webulators: http://www.ahhz.com/ Hope that helps someone... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Owner, MerchWare | nuclear warhead disarmament should zmerch(a)northernway.net | *not* be your first career choice.

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Ooops... this Ultrix...

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Sorry, I should have clarified. I have Ultrix 4.3 for both VAXen and RISC. Based on the responses I've gotten so far, it'll end up being built around BSD 4.2-4.3, yes? I'm asking because I'll be book-shopping before too much longer, and I've had my eye on the O'Reilly books 'Unix in a Nutshell' and 'Essential System Administration.' Both seem to strike a balance between SCO and BSD. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

3
2
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Apology, Info, Etc...

by bcw＠u.washington.edu

Hi all. It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't read the list in months and only do basic addition and removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal lives have made it impossible to be any more active with classiccmp. I encourage you to organize as you desire, by whatever means you can agree on if you haven't already done so. I will continue to do basic list maintenance as much as I'm available. Please don't count on me for anything at this point. I think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll have the time to just read it again. If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else would like to take over with their own listserv, it would be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. If you can live with the current level of administration, I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. Sorry to have let you guys hang - I've been meaning to make a post of this nature for some time and it never made it high enough up the priorities list. -------------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275

28 years, 3 months

10
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New to List

by DiesIrrae＠aol.com

Hello, I am new to the list and despite all this nonsencse about some guy named Sam, I am looking forward to gaining knowledge from this list. I currently own an Atari 400, 800, and Mac Plus. Really all I am here for is listening in and to ask a few questions when they arrive to my brain. Later, -Enrique!

28 years, 3 months

4
3
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Apple - PC

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

There is no way to read Apple II disks in a PC. Your options are: 1. Serial transfer 2. Obtain an "Apple II-on-an-ISA-card" device (rare, no longer manufactured, various brand names) 3. If you have access to a Mac, and have a 3 1/2" drive on the Apple II, you can transfer the disk files to ProDOS format and read them via the Macintosh, then either write them to PC format with a Mac SuperDrive, or read the Mac disks on the PC with the various utilities available. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Max Eskin [SMTP:maxeskin@hotmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 4:32 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple - PC > > Is there a way to transfer files from an Apple II to a PC? I have a > //c. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

3
2
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Hitachi 2.8" (was Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...)

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

andrew davie was :Talking about disks for the Mattel Aquarius... yep, they're quick disks. and they probably belong in the same bucket as sinclair's microdrive and phi mag's floopy tape (anyone else remember this one?) - nice tries that just couldn't keep up, either in cost, capacity or genericity. if only our ql's microdrives still worked... they're a lovely little storage mechanism to look at. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

4
4
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Question for the Faq - If there is one.

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> wrote: >This may as well be the official location since the "official" location is >inaccessible. I hereby declare Doug's address above the new official web >address since nobody else will. I'll also volunteer to host a copy of the FAQ web page(s). I'll even help edit, write or update it - but you weren't asking for a new maintainer, were you? >B) It doesn't get sent out to new subscribers >C) People ignore it There's a few ways to handle this: send out a subscribe/unsubscribe/FAQ post every month, or put a short .signature on the digest or on every message, for a day once every couple weeks. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Robots again

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

I just finished watching that Discovery program on Robots and was wondering if anyone involved in the list has previously/is currently working in that field Also, does anyone know how much of an influence the use of computer systems by all of those AI reasearches in the late 70's/early 80's had on system designs? I'd be interested to hear any opinions/anecdotes/etc on this stuff. Aaron

28 years, 3 months

9
10
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Epson HX-20 picture online

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I have placed a piccie of my HX-20, for your viewing pleasure, at http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/hx20/hx20.jpg Please note the unit shown is sitting in a nifty snaplock carrybox from EPSON, has the expansion unit connected on the left. The leaflet shown lists the unit at $1487. This is in the days when $1AUS = US$1.09. I'm very open to trades on this unit. I'm looking for cartridges from the video console machines, and the machines themselves. Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

1
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Keep me out of it.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I do not _want_ the job, I am simply willing to do it. I <would _prefer_ Allison or Tim Shoppa, as I think they have better First and formost, don't suck me into this. The list. It's charter is simple. Occasional digressions and ratholes can be interesting. Posturing and fighting is boring. Allison

28 years, 3 months

1
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Finding machines (was: Question for the Faq)

by DiesIrrae＠aol.com

Speaking of finding systems. Today I found an Atari 800 (a few keys missing) at a thrift store for 50 cents. -Enrique!

28 years, 3 months

1
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[bcw@u.washington.edu: Re: Apology, Info, Etc...]

by jmg＠iac.net

Folks I just received this in private email from Bill Whitson. I rarely break rules of privacy like this, but the information here affects _so_ many people. Depending on what happens I may unsubscribe from this list. I want everyone to know that I've learned some wonderful things here and feel I've 'met' some amazing players in the high technology arena. May we meet again! Take Care, J. Maynard Gelinas ------- Start of forwarded message ------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:03:57 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) From: Bill Whitson <bcw(a)u.washington.edu> To: "J. Maynard Gelinas" <jmg(a)iac.net> Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... Hi. I'm currently working with Sam Ismail on this. He may have the capability to run the whole listserv. I'm sure he will bring the list up to date as soon as he knows. Thanks for the offer. Depending on what happens with Sam, I may take you up on it. - -------------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275 On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: jmg-> OK, jmg-> I've received significant help from list members here in the jmg->past, and _really_ don't want to see it disappear. I understand how jmg->family pressures make the sustained effort of mail list maintenance jmg->sometimes an impossibility (Hey, I ran a BBS for four years in the jmg->80's like most of us here). So, I offer to take on list management jmg->_if necessary_. I'm perfectly happy to share these responsibilities jmg->with other members as well. In fact, if a whole bunch of other people jmg->chime up and want to take on the task, I'll _gladly_ bow out! ;-) jmg-> jmg-> But I'd rather take on the headache of being the list jmg->maintainer than see classiccmp die out from bickering and off topic jmg->posts because of ineffective list maintenance. Bill, you started a jmg->wonderful thing, but I think, at least right now, we need heavier jmg->moderation. jmg-> jmg-> There are a few other folks I'd rather see in the drivers seat jmg->before me. Tim Shoppa and Allison, for example, would both make jmg->better choices than I (and if you guys want it, I'm outta your way). jmg->However, this is _an_ offer; currently no one else seems to have jmg->chimed up. jmg-> jmg-> I can arrange to have a Majordomo or Listproc list manager in jmg->place at one of several hosts if necessary, but I think it would be to jmg->everyone's benefit if the 'classiccmp' address remained the same. I jmg->hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here... jmg-> jmg->Respectfully, jmg->J. Maynard Gelinas jmg-> jmg-> jmg->> Hi all. jmg->> jmg->> It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on jmg->> classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll jmg->> get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't jmg->> read the list in months and only do basic addition and jmg->> removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal jmg->> lives have made it impossible to be any more active with jmg->> classiccmp. jmg->> jmg->> I encourage you to organize as you desire, by whatever jmg->> means you can agree on if you haven't already done so. jmg->> jmg->> I will continue to do basic list maintenance as much jmg->> as I'm available. jmg->> jmg->> Please don't count on me for anything at this point. I jmg->> think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the jmg->> initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll jmg->> have the time to just read it again. jmg->> jmg->> If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else jmg->> would like to take over with their own listserv, it would jmg->> be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. jmg->> If you can live with the current level of administration, jmg->> I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. jmg->> jmg->> Sorry to have let you guys hang - I've been meaning to jmg->> make a post of this nature for some time and it never jmg->> made it high enough up the priorities list. jmg->> jmg->> -------------------------------------------------------- jmg->> Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu jmg->> Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 jmg->> University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275 jmg->> jmg->> jmg->> jmg-> ------- End of forwarded message -------

28 years, 3 months

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Maybe list division? Re: [bcw@u.washington.edu: Re: Apology, Info, Etc...]

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Hi. Instead of killing the current classiccmp, we could just take some parts of it off. For instance, we could make a "classiccmpmarket" list for buying/selling classics. Just a thought, Tim D. Hotze > > Folks I just received this in private email from Bill >Whitson. I rarely break rules of privacy like this, but the >information here affects _so_ many people. Depending on what happens >I may unsubscribe from this list. I want everyone to know that I've >learned some wonderful things here and feel I've 'met' some amazing >players in the high technology arena. May we meet again! > >Take Care, >J. Maynard Gelinas > > >------- Start of forwarded message ------- >Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:03:57 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time) >From: Bill Whitson <bcw(a)u.washington.edu> >To: "J. Maynard Gelinas" <jmg(a)iac.net> >Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... > >Hi. > >I'm currently working with Sam Ismail on this. He may have >the capability to run the whole listserv. I'm sure he will >bring the list up to date as soon as he knows. > >Thanks for the offer. Depending on what happens with Sam, >I may take you up on it. > >- -------------------------------------------------------- >Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu >Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 >University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275 > > >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > >jmg-> OK, >jmg-> I've received significant help from list members here in the >jmg->past, and _really_ don't want to see it disappear. I understand how >jmg->family pressures make the sustained effort of mail list maintenance >jmg->sometimes an impossibility (Hey, I ran a BBS for four years in the >jmg->80's like most of us here). So, I offer to take on list management >jmg->_if necessary_. I'm perfectly happy to share these responsibilities >jmg->with other members as well. In fact, if a whole bunch of other people >jmg->chime up and want to take on the task, I'll _gladly_ bow out! ;-) >jmg-> >jmg-> But I'd rather take on the headache of being the list >jmg->maintainer than see classiccmp die out from bickering and off topic >jmg->posts because of ineffective list maintenance. Bill, you started a >jmg->wonderful thing, but I think, at least right now, we need heavier >jmg->moderation. >jmg-> >jmg-> There are a few other folks I'd rather see in the drivers seat >jmg->before me. Tim Shoppa and Allison, for example, would both make >jmg->better choices than I (and if you guys want it, I'm outta your way). >jmg->However, this is _an_ offer; currently no one else seems to have >jmg->chimed up. >jmg-> >jmg-> I can arrange to have a Majordomo or Listproc list manager in >jmg->place at one of several hosts if necessary, but I think it would be to >jmg->everyone's benefit if the 'classiccmp' address remained the same. I >jmg->hope I haven't overstepped my bounds here... >jmg-> >jmg->Respectfully, >jmg->J. Maynard Gelinas >jmg-> >jmg-> >jmg->> Hi all. >jmg->> >jmg->> It's come to my attention that there's some discussion on >jmg->> classiccmp regarding the administration of the list. I'll >jmg->> get back to those that have contacted me asap. I haven't >jmg->> read the list in months and only do basic addition and >jmg->> removal of addresses at this point. My work and personal >jmg->> lives have made it impossible to be any more active with >jmg->> classiccmp. >jmg->> >jmg->> I encourage you to organize as you desire, by whatever >jmg->> means you can agree on if you haven't already done so. >jmg->> >jmg->> I will continue to do basic list maintenance as much >jmg->> as I'm available. >jmg->> >jmg->> Please don't count on me for anything at this point. I >jmg->> think classiccmp is great and I'm glad to have done the >jmg->> initial arrangements, but I don't even know when I'll >jmg->> have the time to just read it again. >jmg->> >jmg->> If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else >jmg->> would like to take over with their own listserv, it would >jmg->> be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. >jmg->> If you can live with the current level of administration, >jmg->> I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. >jmg->> >jmg->> Sorry to have let you guys hang - I've been meaning to >jmg->> make a post of this nature for some time and it never >jmg->> made it high enough up the priorities list. >jmg->> >jmg->> -------------------------------------------------------- >jmg->> Bill Whitson bcw(a)u.washington.edu >jmg->> Network Administrator (425) 352-5209 >jmg->> University of Washington - Bothell Help Desk: 2-5275 >jmg->> >jmg->> >jmg->> >jmg-> >------- End of forwarded message -------

28 years, 3 months

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Apple - PC

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-03-18 21:39:17 EST, you write: << 4. Wasn't there something called a Central Point Option Card (or something like that?) that allowed a person to install an Apple drive in a PC? ttyl srw >> the only thing i'm familiar with is the central point copy option board which let a pc do a bit copy of any disk, write protected, ibm format or not. i have two, one is an earlier version i think, but i've never gotten around to setting it up yet. david

28 years, 3 months

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RGB monitor

by jstorm＠RFPP.com

Sorry, I don't have the answer. I have a 12" RGB monitor that works with a IIGS but when I plug it into my Mac IIsi, I get nothing. Please let me know if you find out where you can get technical info on Apple monitors. Thanks, jstorm

28 years, 3 months

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Apology, Info, Etc...

by mark＠cyberlightstudios.com

Same here....how do I unsubscribe? I've forgotten, now...can anyone give me the address? Thanks -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... >Well, I have had it with this group. I am going to ignore any messages I >get for a while - later I will check back and if it does not improve, I am >out for good. > >Now I see why a lot of people I know are not on this list. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net >

28 years, 3 months

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[bcw@u.washington.edu: Re: Apology, Info, Etc...]

by jmg＠iac.net

Sigh. You're right, I got your mail before my reply came through and I jumped to a conclusion without enough facts. Still, fuck you. I don't like you. I _am_ outta here now. J. Maynard Gelinas > Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:52:43 -0800 (PST) > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> > To: maynard(a)jmg.com > Subject: Re: [bcw(a)u.washington.edu: Re: Apology, Info, Etc...] > > On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, J. Maynard Gelinas wrote: > > > Whatever dude. I'm outta here. You're obviously abusing your > > power right now by intercepting the mail. You intend to shape > > opionion by censorship. This is far more unethical than my making > > public a personal email message. > > WHAT!? You posted your message publicly in ClassicCmp. Did you expect me > to ingore it or something? > > > Fuck you. > > Get a clue. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > >

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

>before I was born) -- the age of cybernetics! Whatever happened to the >age of the personal robot, and why do we still have manual vacuum >cleaners? Because they're sexier when they bend over? Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by adam＠merlin.net.au

I work in AI from the philosophical side, so I might be able to help here. >I just caught the end of that special. I didn't realize that interest in AI >had expired. Not at all. But there were some problems with teh aims and the possible realisations. Specifically, the dream of making a computer that could converse, as per the very foolish Turing Test, has appeared to be further away than ever. The original dream ran up against the sheer complexity of the problem, and the way in which the architecture that was being employed - basically there was a brute strength attitude, which was not successful. What is needed now is a new direction, which is being provided in a number of different areas - most notably from Daniel Dennett's COG. The one of the big problems was what is know as the Frame Problem of AI. It's not fitting to explain it here, but in essence the problem is that it takes time to catalogue the things which are not relevant, as well as those which are. Thus a computere faced with a problem would have to spend most of it's time working out what is irrelevant - severly limiting it's ability to solve anything. There are a lot of other problems, such as the distinction betweem implicit and explicit memory, but the upshot is that the old methods failed, and the new are still being developed. >Was there just no demand for AI, or has the market just taken the useful >aspects and abandoned the remainder? Isn't the Neural Net technology being >used in various pattern recognition applications (i.e. OCR) descended from >the AI research of the the 70's and 80's? The useful bits are being employed widly - fuzzy logic in toasters, expert systems all over teh place, OCR stuff, the military make extensive use of neural nets in the development of new missile technologies, etc. It has neither been given up, nor proven useless - it's just that we aren't going to be passing the Turing test for a while yet and, even if we do, it will prove nothing. Adam.

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>> Perhaps a real computer historian can chime in here, but I vaguely recall >> that there was considerable experimentation and debate early in the >> development of electronic computers along the lines of analog vs. digital, >> von neumann vs non-von, analogies to electronic brains, etc. > What do you mean by Von Neumann? I see that as a self-replicating mechanism... > >I have here a book from the Philips Technical Library called 'Practical >Robot Circuits' published in 1960. The first half of this book contains >the design for a robot 'dog' using essentially an analogue control system >(mostly amplifiers and comparators) to process the signals from various >sensors (photocells, microphones, thermistors, etc). The outputs of the What can this "dog" do? Does it have any kind of interesting abilities? > >BTW, the electronic side of the device uses valves (vacuum tubes). > >The second half of the book describes a tic-tac-toe machine, again using >valves. This one is entirely digital AFAIK. Why does EVERYONE love Tic-Tac-Toe so much? Bill Gates made a program, this book has a machine.... [snip] AFAIK, the Soviet Union, before it broke apart, put a lot of time into analog and mechanical machines, anything but pure IC logic, anyway. This was partly because they(we) didn't have the technology to make reliable VLSI ICs on a large scale, but mostly that the weird non- or semi-digital machines can handle a lot more beating and EM interference. > >I seem to recall that A.K. Dewdeny (That's not the right spelling...) >wrote about 'analogue gadgets' in Scientific American at some point. The >basic point IIRC was that analogue systems are good at providing fast >_approximate_ solutions to certain problems. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

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Looking for a Q-Bus card

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi Seth, ---------- > From: Seth J. Morabito <sethm(a)loomcom.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Looking for a Q-Bus card > Date: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 5:12 PM > I've just acquired a MicroVAX 3800 (KA655-AA CPU), with various extra > bits and pieces. I know this is not _technically_ classic, but it > almost is... and heck, any QBus equipment feels pretty classic to me :) Lucky ... > > It has the factory-installed KFQSA-SA DSSI controller card in it, but > what I'd really like to do is put SCSI into this poor dear, as DSSI > drives are getting harder to come by. > > I've got a quick question for everyone first. Can a KZQSA-SF (SCSI) > and a KFQSA-SA (DSSI) controller live peacefully together on the same > Q-BUS, or must I dump one to use the other? No problem ... > > If I can use both, does anyone have a KZQSA-SF card they'd be willing to > give, trade, or sell to me? I Thats not so easy ... Most people want to keep their SCSI q-bus cards ... but you could easily buy a new one ... (appr. 800-1400 $) :-(( > -Seth

28 years, 3 months

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DING DING! Back to your corners... WAS: Re: Irreverence to irrelevance

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 01:18 PM 3/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >So... on that note. I am in need of some old removable SyQuest disks for >an SQ555 drive. (the 44mb variety) Anybody know where I might find some? >The local 'puter store still sells them for $40 a pop! Take a look on eBay (http://www.ebay.com/); I see them there occasionally for reasonable prices. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

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Mac hi-res monitor

by A_Finney＠wfi-inc.com

Aw, damn. Sorry again guys, this was for private E.

28 years, 3 months

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FAQ and the re-mailer

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:46 AM 3/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >Would it be a) desirable, b) possible to have the remailer append a very >short text to each outgoing message with "Read the faq: <FAQ URL>"?

28 years, 3 months

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Mac hi-res monitor

by A_Finney＠wfi-inc.com

Do you still need this thing? At 10:56 AM 2/11/98 EST, you wrote: >yes! i need one! glad to pay shipping to nc. is it available? > >david > > >In a message dated 98-02-10 15:25:34 EST, you write: > ><< Does anyone need a Mac mono monitor? Model number MO400, circa 1987. Best > offer takes it, no matter how pathetic. Recipient either pays shipping or > picks it up in the LA area (it's not heavy at all, I can't imagine that ups > ground would be more than a few bucks on this thing). >> > >

28 years, 3 months

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Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd)

by wirehead＠retrocomputing.com

And again, here is the message forwarded to the group. You have the power to stop this Sam....all you have to do is stop harassing me. I am acting in a completely defensive manner which means the balls in YOUR court here. We can go on like this until we're both removed from the list. And if I alone am removed then I can only hope that someone else will step up to this particular plate. At this point it's just a matter of which of us gets bored with this game first. But I think everyone can see that I'm between a rock and a hard place here. I can't give in because I said I wouldn't. My hands are tied. But you have an opportunity to be the big man here and stop harassing me. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... Once again, you've posted an off-topic message to the mailing list. Here is the FAQ, once again, in the hopes that this time you will choose to abide by it rather than flout it out of selfishness. 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail.

28 years, 3 months

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Pro Anarchia (with apologies to Cicero)

by peacock＠simconv.com

>> My vote is to avoid this whole mess by having people respect the >> guidelines of the existing definition. Inspirational flash....how about everyone else on the list vote by filtering out the off topic stuff. We don't need no stinkin' rules. After all, the early microcomputer days were pure anarchy anyway. Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd)

by wirehead＠retrocomputing.com

And again, here is a mildly edited version of your harassment for the entire group to see. I may be foolish for standing up to you but you're more foolish than me for proving correct everything that I've said about you. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:57:32 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd) Again, for your information, here is the FAQ which outlines what is acceptable for discussion on ClassicCmp: 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail.

28 years, 3 months

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Sam's Instructions in Private Email (fwd)

by wirehead＠retrocomputing.com

And you are again harassing me because your interpretation of the FAQ in this case is inconsistent with reality. And don't think I don't know what you're trying to do...you're trying to force ME to waste bandwidth publicly to make it appear that *I'M* the problem and not you. Anybody with half a brain can see right through your ploy here, Sam. I've read it and I'm NOT off-topic as this discussion and similar ones relate to the operation of the group and that is not forbidden in the FAQ. You want to play this game then I can play FOREVER. As I said, I won't back down from you. EVER. I will construct auto-responders if necessary but here's the deal: I let you have the last word in December thinking that you'd leave people alone but you're obviously too much of a bully for that. So this time, rather than bury my head in the sand [and let me make this abundantly clear] I WILL NOT BACK DOWN FROM YOU. I will NEVER give into your bullying. You can stop this and you should since YOU are the aggressor not me. I am acting from a defensive posture and I think everyone can see that. And, although I'm sure many find this game annoying, I'm certain that even those who would have criticized me earlier for standing up to you realize precisely what you are and no longer blame me for not backing down. And just so this is clear. I would prefer that Bill remove us BOTH from the mailing list permanently than permit you to have your wicked way with the group. But make no mistake...YOU ARE THE AGGRESSOR Sam. But if it takes Bill removing us both from the list forever, then I would consider that a SMALL price to pay to rid the mailing list of your vile insults and the pestilence of your malicious intentions. You are clearly suffering from mental illness and I feel sorry for you but I cannot permit you to abuse me, harass me or send me what amounts to unsolicited email spam without making the entire mailing list aware of it. Why do I do this? Because you've stated yourself you want to take over the mailing list (which I said was your goal all along) I think your behavior has GREAT bearing on your ability to actually moderate a group without it becoming a fiasco. To everyone that this annoys, I am truly sorry. I didn't want it to come to this. But I clearly have no choice but to continue standing against Sam. If you want to solve this particular problem then please and BY ALL MEANS suggest that Bill remove BOTH me and Sam from the list...Sam because he is an aggressor and me because I'm no longer in a position where I can back down. And I think that solution would satisfy everyone's sense of fairness. And remove us BOTH forever. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:43:08 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> Subject: Re: Sam's Instructions in Private Email (fwd) You have again posted an off-topic message. I will again send you the relevant portions of the FAQ. Please print a copy out and paste it to your wall where you can see it at all times. 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail.

28 years, 3 months

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Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd)

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Hi Everyone, I have tried to drop this arguement with Sam but he insists on perpetuating it. It may be embarrassing to read this stuff but it should be kept public since it does concern the operation of this list. Sam is now complaining that this tread is off topic for this list, but he convenently forgets that he is the one that started it! In his latest tirade, Sam has accused me of using this list for profit (I wish!). I should note that selling items on the list is permitted according to the FAQs, and yes I have probably made a grand total of $50 in the last six months (net not profit). Anthony is right, Sam seems to be interested in nothing more than harassing others and tearing down this list. What I would like to know is who appointed Sam to police this list? Joe At 05:59 PM 3/18/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >Again I warned you. I was responding publicly to a public posting by the >OWNER AND MODERATOR of the mailing list, Sam. You are so out of line >here that I can't believe anymore that your purpose on the mailing list >is to do anything other than to harass others. > >Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > >PS: And I'm not going to allow you to do this privately...even if it >does annoy the group because I think everyone needs to see what kind of >person you really are and how petty and small-minded your little games >are becoming. I think this has bearing on any project that you undertake >and the extent to which others should participate in it. > > ---------- Forwarded message >---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:03:04 -0800 (PST) >From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> >To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> >Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... > > >Again, you are in violation of Section 1.1 of the FAQ which reads: > > >1.1 What is ClassicCmp? > >It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center >on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place >for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions >dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are >often better handled in private e-mail. > >Please post only on-topic messages in the future. Your cooperation would >be greatly valued by all. > >Have a nice day! > >On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > >> >> Personally I think the list is great and have noticed NO difficulties >> whatsoever in its administration. >> >> I would hate to see it pass into the hands of someone who clearly does >> not have the best interests of others in mind but merely wishes to >> control it for the purposes of ego inflation. >> >> I think the list is wonderful Bill and, aside from one person who is >> clearly incapable of behaving in a rational and courteous manner, should >> remain precisely as it is. >> >> That's my two cents worth... >> >> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead >> >> > If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else >> > would like to take over with their own listserv, it would >> > be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. >> > If you can live with the current level of administration, >> > I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. >> >> > > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > >

28 years, 3 months

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Looking for a Q-Bus card

by peacock＠simconv.com

>I've got a quick question for everyone first. Can a KZQSA-SF (SCSI) >and a KFQSA-SA (DSSI) controller live peacefully together on the same >Q-BUS, or must I dump one to use the other? > Pretty sure you can use both, however, if I recall the KZQSA VMS driver only supports cd-rom and tape drives, not SCSI disk drives. What you probably need is a 3rd party Q-Bus SCSI disk controller that emulates an MSCP type controller card, looks like a RQDX3. Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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Looking for a Q-Bus card

by sethm＠loomcom.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 841 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980318/c132fb01/at…

28 years, 3 months

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Hitachi 2.8" (was Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...)

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-17 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :[Compact Floppy Disks] :> those'll be the things amstrad used ad nauseam, yep? you can post :Yes. Also used on the Tatung Einstein (now that's a machine I've :not seen mentioned lately), the Oric and probably others that I've :forgotten. oh, the einsteins were cute. :> similar hardware to the memotech, from your description - including that regrettable decision to use the tms9918 for the display. those things are just not *good*... :At one time you could get 3" disks drives for about \pounds 30.00 :in the UK (when all other drives were over \pounds 100.00). I :bought one and put it as a second drive on my CoCo system - the :extra storage was very useful when running OS-9, and it didn't :matter that the disks weren't standard. unfortunately, the cost of other drives (and of disks) plummeted in the uk and the cost of the disks for the 3" remained high. that's probably what killed them, that and the proprietary nature of them (they may not have been intended as proprietary, but they seem to have ended up that way). and we can well believe that they were superior in quality. compared with the modern 3.5" disk, most things are... :Actually the design of the disk is vastly superior to the 3.5" one. :The metal shutter on the 3" disk is inside the case and is opened :by a slider on one edge. On the 3.5" disk the shutter can be easily :opened accidentally, and more importantly it can spring apart on :the inside edge. we've travelled that road... :One thing that people didn't like about the 3" disks was that they :were flippies - you turned them over to read the second side - at :least on most Amstrad machines. But there are real 2-head 3" drives :- I have some, along with the manual. not the one that was the second disk on a pcw8512. that was 80-track double-sided. what people *really* didn't like about them was paying 3 quid for a disk when they could see 3.5" disks around for 3 quid for a box. that'd annoy us, and amstrad weren't really clued up to it. :A TI 9927 (I think - the PAL version of the 9918) video chip + 16K :video memory *shakes head again* -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

2
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Apology, Info, Etc... (fwd)

by wirehead＠retrocomputing.com

Again I warned you. I was responding publicly to a public posting by the OWNER AND MODERATOR of the mailing list, Sam. You are so out of line here that I can't believe anymore that your purpose on the mailing list is to do anything other than to harass others. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead PS: And I'm not going to allow you to do this privately...even if it does annoy the group because I think everyone needs to see what kind of person you really are and how petty and small-minded your little games are becoming. I think this has bearing on any project that you undertake and the extent to which others should participate in it. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:03:04 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> Subject: Re: Apology, Info, Etc... Again, you are in violation of Section 1.1 of the FAQ which reads: 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. Please post only on-topic messages in the future. Your cooperation would be greatly valued by all. Have a nice day! On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, Wirehead Prime wrote: > > Personally I think the list is great and have noticed NO difficulties > whatsoever in its administration. > > I would hate to see it pass into the hands of someone who clearly does > not have the best interests of others in mind but merely wishes to > control it for the purposes of ego inflation. > > I think the list is wonderful Bill and, aside from one person who is > clearly incapable of behaving in a rational and courteous manner, should > remain precisely as it is. > > That's my two cents worth... > > Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > > > If current arrangements are unworkable and someone else > > would like to take over with their own listserv, it would > > be simple to just transfer the subscription list, I think. > > If you can live with the current level of administration, > > I have no problem continuing to host the listserv. > > Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

1
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Symbolics 3650..

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-18 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :[Symbolics 3650] :Was that the LISPMs that lived at MIT? CONS and CADR? does anyone have either tech info, or a URL where we can get such info? (what strikes us as amusing is that stallman conceived the idea behind GNU when "ripping off" symbolics software to keep lisp machines in business. ;> is any of the source he generated whilst doing this publicly available?) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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RGB monitor

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-03-18 16:57:56 EST, you write: << Sorry, I don't have the answer. I have a 12" RGB monitor that works with a IIGS but when I plug it into my Mac IIsi, I get nothing. Please let me know if you find out where you can get technical info on Apple monitors. Thanks, jstorm >> i've tried the same thing and get the same results. i have found out there are analogue and digital RGB monitors, but i do not know the difference between the two. can anyone direct us back on topic and explain the difference?

28 years, 3 months

3
2
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Irreverence to irrelevance

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

sam ismail: :Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, :drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. :^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :This is not your crusade, Anthony. no but you have made it yours. you seem to be in the process of perpetuating a holy war all on your lonesome here. please desist. surely, if you have a problem with the posts of individuals, you would be better advised to take it up with them on an individual basis? we have a much longer email winging its way to you privately, but we feel that this should be said in public. it's off-topic, but so be it. and to respond to the only on-topic post we've seen from you so far tonight: no, we don't know why mits used 8800 over 8080, unless it was the simple fear of being sued for copyright violation. that question wasn't settled for a while afterward. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her... Net-Tamer V 1.08X - Test Drive

28 years, 3 months

1
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Finding machines (was: Question for the Faq)

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-18 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :At 12:48 PM 3/17/98 -0600, you wrote: :>be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old :>equipment? :In no particular order: :Friends and Family (and the companies they work for) :Thrift shops :Garage Sales :Dumpsters :Surplus dealers :Internet (this list, especially) :hamfests/swapmeets/fleamarkets :classified ads :typewriter/office equipment repair businesses perhaps the original requestor was thinking more in terms of geographical areas...? sure, thrift stores, but which are your personal favourites? etc. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
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Sam's Instructions in Private Email (fwd)

by wirehead＠retrocomputing.com

Don't say I didn't warn you Sam. I do not see in the FAQ that discussions relating to the operation of the mailing list are off-topic... especially when such discussions are started by you suggesting that the list should die and be replaced by a list under your control. I do see that *BILL WHITSON* is the operator of the mailing list and not you. I am glad to see, at least in THIS particular message, you've discontinued using foul language. Please not, however, in general you post more foul language than I do supposedly off-topic messages. Perhaps you will continue to reduce your use of foul language and add to that the elimination of your harassment of me, insults directed at the mailing list and the discontinuation of your self-appointed police activities. Anthony Clifton - Wirehead ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)wco.com> To: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)www.retrocomputing.com> Subject: Re: Sam's Instructions in Private Email Once again, you are egregiously off-topic. Once again, allow me to quote the FAQ so that perhaps you will begin to understand that the message you posted is not acceptable discussion material. 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu. 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. > I gave you fair warning that I would post your private emails and, if > they do not discontinue IMMEDIATELY, I will do so in every case so that > others can see that you are simply a bully and nothing more.

28 years, 3 months

1
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Classiccmp FAQ - PLEASE READ IT ASAP

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, I'd say we needn't be ashamed of our personalities, this IS a social, not business, list. Does anyone know how many people are on this list? > Let's keep on topic and keep personalities off the list and private. > Abide by section 2.8 and all of us will benefit. > > Marty Mintzell > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
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Fortune Systems 32:16 & The Trailing Edge

by dlw＠neosoft.com

Before everyone runs off... I just picked up two Fortune Systems' computers. A Fortune 32:16 SX and a Fortune 32:16 XP. These were 68K based Unix systems but I only have the base units. The XP system should have a monitor and keyboard that plug into it but those are missing. As usual with many old systems, these also came without doc and software. I helped the previous owner as much as I could with these (which was not very much) and he was able to get one up and logged in but that was about it. Does anyone out there have any info on these; specs, doc, software or a monitor and keyboard for the XP? Also, I've set up a server and registered my own domain; trailingedge.com. As this is my own hardware, connection and domain, I intend to run web and ftp services here with as many links to other classic computing sites, info and whatever files I can receive permission to place here. I hope to cover as many systems as I can add space for. So far I've only begun to move my old web pages from my ISP over to the new server but plan to update the site as I go along. I'd be happy to hear what people would like to find there or services people would like to see. You can email me at my old address dlw(a)neosoft.com or my new one dlw(a)trailingedge.com. The new web site is http://www.trailingedge.com of course. Sorry but the site isn't currently very "text friendly", (though I did view it with the current version of lynx from a Unix shell without too much trouble) but that will be changing shortly too. Thanks for your time. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com || dlw(a)neosoft.com http://www.trailingedge.com || http://www.neosoft.com/~dlw

28 years, 3 months

1
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RGB monitor

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Go to Aple's web site, apple.com, and search in the tech support TIL (technical information library). You'll find everything you need and more... Marty Mintzell email:marty@itgonline.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: RGB monitor Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 3/18/98 5:02 PM Sorry, I don't have the answer. I have a 12" RGB monitor that works with a IIGS but when I plug it into my Mac IIsi, I get nothing. Please let me know if you find out where you can get technical info on Apple monitors. Thanks, jstorm ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Mar18.170233.1767.32722; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:02:34 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id NAA15182; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:59 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id NAA24642 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:49 -0800 Received: from mdmserver.rfpp ([12.3.100.67]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id NAA16485 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:43 -0800 Received: by MDMSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) id <GTNW4XV5>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:03:15 -0500 Message-Id: <50975206F0B1D111A69E00609715143F01CEBE@MDMSERVER> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:03:13 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Storm, John" <jstorm(a)RFPP.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: RGB monitor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-To: "'classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu'" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Priority: 3 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

28 years, 3 months

1
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PN2400SA

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >This is a Practical Peripherals 2400SA, right? Little white plastic >modem with a sloped front with modem-blinkenlights? Yep >I think this is the kind of modem that taught me that when they label >one jack "line" and the other jack "phone" they may mean it. When I >got it wrong the modem behaved as above: it would go off-hook and dial >but not connect. > >Except that they didn't label the jacks on the modem, you had to look >in the manual if you wanted to know which was which. But there's only >two ways to do it, so put the cable that goes to the wall jack in the >*other* modem jack and see if that makes it work. If it isn't plugged in correctly, I think it says "NO DIALTONE", but I will check ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
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Irreverence to irrelevance

by jfoust＠threedee.com

A good mailing list / BBS / forum / whatever has a benevolent dictator. A moderator. Someone who rules with a light hand, and who has the time and good nature to police unruly threads. A simple solution is to reject the person's message, but this requires human intervention. It's usually pretty easy to shift these mail lists from automatic to moderated, but then there's a posting delay as the moderator approves messages... and I think it's too much to ask for someone to volunteer 10+ hours a week to trim and approve postings. I've always thought a much more sensible approach is the private news server. It allows pruning of unruly threads, either by the reader (ignoring off-topic subjects) or by a B.D. who trims away junk messages. It allows auto-archiving. It doesn't clog mail routes and mail boxes. You can read it with any Usenet news reader, just point to someone else's server. It would be easy to split into .hardware, .software, .culture sub-groups. Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> wrote: >2. Who's fault is it that you've apparently never learned to use a >delete key? Uhm, so why did you decide it was useful to include a quoted copy of Sam's post? Excess bytes vex me more than swear words, but almost as much as conspiracy theories. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

6
8
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Irreverence to irrelevance

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

a)This is itself off-topic b)One needs to have some kind of knowledge and ability just to join the list >Well Sam - you know me 8-) I will reserve judgement for the moment. >Most of what you said - I agree with - How you said it - well... PS I hope the new list will be accessible via a classic computer > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Microsoft&Windows

by david＠hookham.force9.co.uk

From: Charles E. Fox <foxvideo(a)wincom.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: 16 March 1998 22:51 Subject: Microsoft&Windows > At the risk of getting incinerated, I would like to put in my two bits on >the great MS debate. > You fellows tend to resemble a lot of Grand Prix drivers running down >Fords and Chevvies. What it comes right down to is that there are a whole >bunch of people who are doing useful things with computers who would not be >if they had to depend on the equipment and software that was available >before PC's, Mac's, MS-Dos and Windows. > I saw the same thing with the introduction of self threading 16mm >projectors about twenty five years ago. The National Film Board of Canada >banned them because they chewed up film, but they made it possible for >thousands of teachers to use film in their classes. > Someday possibly we can run our modern computers with an operating system >that comes on one single sided floppy, but until then lets appreciate what >we have. Hey, we've already had that - it was called DOS (albeit versions prior to about 5.0) ;-p ------------------------------------------------- - ICQ: 9761376 page 9761376(a)pager.mirabilis.com - - http://wwp.mirabilis.com/9761376 - ------------------------------------------------- It is much easier to suggest solutions when you know nothing about the problem

28 years, 3 months

1
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Manchester Mark I

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/ssem/ssemhome.htm We're coming up to the 50th anniversary of the first program run on the world's very first stored program computer, the Manchester Mark I. I've visited this page a bit, and its quite fascinating. They are running a competitiion for the best program written on this machine by the end of the month - emulators available. With just 6 instruction types, and just 32 words of memory (each instruction takes 16 bits of the 32 bits), no add, no bit shift, and rudimentary branching, you will be sorely pressed for space. But that's just what classic computing is all about. The winner gets to run their program on the reconstructed MkI that will be debuting in a few months. I toyed around with a packer that would let the unused bits of memory hold additional instructions, but found it damn difficult to do in 32 bytes and still end up with more than I started with!!!! The biggest killer for me was no add, no and or xor, and no bit shift! I recommend a visit. Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

1
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Robots again

by jthiemann＠castleton.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk [SMTP:lisard@zetnet.co.uk] > Sent: March 18, 1998 15:19 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Robots again > <snippage all over the place> > however, we'd urge you to take a look at some other object oriented > languages. smalltalk, common lisp, self, oberon, etc. *much* nicer. > and > then grab a forth and roll your own :> > I have done some lisp, (in (mostly Emacs)), so I'm a bit confused about you grouping Common Lisp with object oriented languages... could you elaborate? I am somewhat amused by your mention of forth. I maintain that HP managed to create a good implementation of an object oriented Forth - RPL. (Maybe they should have called it FORTH 1 +) (Objoke: there is now an object oriented COBOL. It's called ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL (yes, before you flame me there are better ways to increment a variable but I've luckily never had the displeasure of having to use COBOL. (ObCC: but I _do_ have a COBOL interpreter for my C= SuperPET - but I only fired it up once to see if the disk was OK. I also have APL which is _way_ cool.))) > :I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for > :three years. > > oh, someone else. we had to do that, thanks to bradford university's > oh > so wonderful degree course. and to think that the oxonians were > moaning > about modula-2... > I remember the hilarious (mis)feature of Moduala-2's "dual-tasking"... This was the language we had to use for "Intro to Operating Systems"... <shudder> > ada is a disgusting language, not because it is verbose or hard to > program, but because it introduces another language - and a vast one > at > that - without giving anything *new*; it doesn't give value for money. > size without content. > The going joke is that somwhere inside Ada is a wonderful, small, efficient language screaming to get out... anyone remember who wrote this? -------------------------------------------- Joachim Thiemann DSP Coder, Castleton Network Systems I doubt therefore I might be.

28 years, 3 months

1
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VAXstation $55/OBO

by jpero＠cgo.wave.ca

Thanks for this tidbit, Allison. I started searching but I turned up nothing at digital's website show nothing about 4000VLC thin pizza box. The Oscillator chip says 100mhz. Only have one internal Qbus slot that is taken by that "dumb" video VRAM RAMDAC / sound / keyboard i/o daughterboard and one internal SCSI port driven by NCR 53C94 chipset. The needs: BIG help is to get info and what is options can be used with this boards? I would love to use it but problem is locating one monitor, s/w, keyboard and bit of help to work with that thing. :) > <Finally now i have that name to 3 motherboards I have of that kind! > <Thank you! :) How good are these boards for and how powerful > <compared to other vaxstation? > > 8vups or better depending on model. No slug. > > Vt320 was available in amber, green, P-white. Whoops looks like mangled formatted and I missed it! I liked them but I have VT420 already. Nicer one 14" at 70HZ. Whew! > > Good price but I think shipping may be understated. Maybe... possible. Jason D. > > Allison > > > email: jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca Pero, Jason D.

28 years, 3 months

1
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Toobs!

by william＠ans.net

I now have sitting on my desk six modules from an IBM 700 series mainframe, destined for the Mill at RCS/RI. Of course, six modules does not make a computer, but I think we should at least try them out, just to see how badly they perform. Does anyone here have information on these things (pointing my finger at Mr. Pierce)? The things are not on circuit boards, so they could be traced out, but I really do not want to that. William Donzelli william(a)ans.net

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Does a DHV11 emulate a DH11?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

DHV11 is the Q-bus 8-port MUX. M3107. Does that emulate a DH11? -------

28 years, 3 months

1
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Question for the Faq - If there is o

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

I've never bothered to go into pawn shops for anything because even the most worthless junk is way overpriced. for example, one place had two IBM 5155 machines and wanted $179 each! i bought my two for $10 each, and one was upgraded with a hard drive and expanded to 640k. i've had better luck at thrift stores and primarily at radio rallies, of which one is coming up next month. those are the best places to find old interesting stuff, computers or not. david << What kind of stores are you hitting that you are having such luck? Today - I stopped into a local pawn shop - a rare place in the suburbs - and picked up an Atari 520ST and an Atari SF354 disk drive sans cables and power supplies. My first pawn shop find. I passed on a IIgs they had, but I was tempted. What I'm really looking for is a IIe. Mike >>

28 years, 3 months

1
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Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

lawrence wilkinson: :But a digital computer can represent rational numbers exactly as you :have (e.g. Smalltalk has a rational data type which behaves just :like any other number) but irrational numbers cause problems. But :then can an analogue machine represent irrational numbers exactly? probably not, but even if it could, how would you measure it to verify..? the strength of analogue is that it can vary smoothly, so the errors are different in character. sometimes digital is preferable. sometimes analogue is. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :>Am I to understand that you don't like SNOBOL? :^) :What exactly is SNOBOL? The library here has two books on it, I :have looked at both and couldn't really figure much out. as perl is to c, so snobol is to fortran. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :Very interesting. Please elaborate. My reasons for disliking OOP :stems from the fact that a Windows app in C++ is much harder to :understand than one in plain non-oop code. Who started oop anyway? simula was the first oo language, and it was pretty good (except that nobody using it realised what they had :> ). the xerox parc team who developed smalltalk did the real ground-breaking work on object orientation, and anything they wrote (alan kay, adele goldberg are two names to look out for) is worth reading. microsoft have never understood object orientation. and because of this, they have killed it (seen COM? ugh). it's a very powerful technique, and you don't necessarily need an oo language to use it. windows was written in c, designed to be called from c, and not object-oriented in the least. no wonder things are harder to use from c++. and mfc only makes things worse. take a look at nextstep sometime, if you can, to see a better approach. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
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Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

spc: :Well, that's because on the VAX (to bring classic computers into :this) had an ENQUEUE and DEQUEUE (I think those are the mnemonics) :instructions which handled double linked lists (of which queues and :stacks can be built out of). *sigh* never mind. did anyone ever use the polynomial evaluators, too? :Why the need for PALcode to do that on the Alpha is a bit odd - all :you really need is an instruction that does an atomic "test and :set" to ensure atomicity (hmmm, it could be that instruction they :added, although it seems strange because DEC Unix supports multiple :CPUs and you NEED that for multiple CPUs). test and set can ensure serialisation, but not atomicity. if the os isn't counting what other processors are accessing its memory, it needs atomicity because the serialisation won't be listened to. however, doubly linked lists are one of a class of things that can be tackled with a two-word compare and swap instruction (as on the 680x0) - see the synthesis description for actual algorithms, url unknown, sorry - which makes them atomic. we'll dig out the pages and post the algorithms if you wish (if they aren't too self-referential). -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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What's with the raw HTML?

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-17 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :>> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere :>> obscure in the settings. :>Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a :>person could specify what type messages (easily) to each person :>individually instead of as a whole.-- :You CAN. The IE bashing is ill-informed. It's a great product. :However, in specific response to the above, you simply select that :mail is responded to in the format it was sent. Quite simple and :obvious. we road-tested it extensively for work. it isn't a great product, it's an adequate product, and every version has its own little collection of bugs. ill-informed? not when the company's future is riding on it. we'll have to go to ie4 eventually, and it's better than ie3.02, but it is far >from great. (however, we'll qualify that. if you use xml, it is great, since it's the only xml browser readily available. other than that...? use netscape instead, it may not be in bed with your desktop but hell, ain't that a benefit...? :> ) -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :> I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least :>in C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures :>to it. we disagree. there are several flavors (sic) of object-oriented programming, and whilst some of them are the invention of a sick and twisted mind (c++), some of them are just damn fine coffee... ;> visual basic isn't OO, don't be confused. and strongly typed OO systems should probably not be used for anything small or prototypical. however, we'd urge you to take a look at some other object oriented languages. smalltalk, common lisp, self, oberon, etc. *much* nicer. and then grab a forth and roll your own :> :I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for :three years. oh, someone else. we had to do that, thanks to bradford university's oh so wonderful degree course. and to think that the oxonians were moaning about modula-2... we've used vb and java reasonably extensively. both are far too typed. vb doesn't even have inheritance, which renders it pretty much useless. :Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't :use it that way). It is my most unfavourite language. Some of us :have described Ada as a read-only language (cf. C as a write-only :language). not even that. it takes up too much space, and the preferred format places variable names in capitals, rendering them almost entirely unreadable. and the OO features are only a glorified type-extension mechanism - oberon's idea, but done by committee in ada95. ada is a disgusting language, not because it is verbose or hard to program, but because it introduces another language - and a vast one at that - without giving anything *new*; it doesn't give value for money. size without content. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

max eskin: :a)If you think about it, a neuron in the brain is very much like an :AND gate or a transistor. It has multiple inputs and needs a certain :amount of electricty across them for its single output to go high. erm, yes, but neurons have to also "learn" what inputs should lead to one state in their outputs. they can also connect inputs and outputs as necessary, though we doubt they can reconnect. and that's assuming that the universe is entirely deterministic and humans have no souls. we're atheist, but we aren't willing to go there to stay. :b)I heard that people are working on computers with transistors so :small, they would be affected by quantum laws, and thus be analog transistors are, and always have been, analogue. look inside an old amp if you doubt this. even mosfets are analogue (they apparently have distortion characteristics more similar to valves when used in audio applications - can anyone confirm, express preferences, etc?) - the switching properties are a handy side-effect. quantum effects make transistors unreliable, not [more] analogue. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere :> obscure in the settings. :Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a :person could specify what type messages (easily) to each person :individually instead of as a whole. you would, wouldn't you...? *sigh* we used ie4 for all of 2 weeks, and during that time killing html mail entirely was what we wanted. you can, though, turn it on again for individual *mails* in the properties for that mail, whilst you compose it. what you can't do is set it at any grain 'twixt the twain. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

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More: Irreverence to irrelevance

by fmc＠reanimators.org

David Wollmann <dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com> wrote: > Why not steer those who can do nntp to alt.folklore.computers? a.f.c > carries discussions on all aspects of computer history, including many of > the topics discussed here. Seconded. I can think of a few recent threads that might make more sense in a.f.c (or maybe even comp.arch) than here. Oh all right, I'll be openly opinionated: host names, AI, rational numbers, and digital vs. analog computing. My opinions only, if you want to flame me for 'em do it privately. Lest y'all think I'm suggesting exiling some threads to the Usenet/alt-net ghetto: I read a.f.c too, and sometimes browse comp.arch, and would be more inclined to participate in those threads in a.f.c because I do find them interesting or amusing, I'm just not sure they're appropriate for this list. The MIME/HTML vs. plain text e-mail thread is meta-discussion, and its existence makes me wonder whether the FAQ should include a Q&A on list e-mail etiquette, or more properly things to do to get your message read by more people (post as plain text, trim quoted text, format for display on an 80-column terminal screen). For that matter, should the FAQ include references to a.f.c and other Usenet resources? > Before flaming folk for ignoring the FAQ, make it readily available. Stick > the FAQ URL at the bottom of every re-mailed message to act as a constant > reminder. How about a periodic repost of the FAQ, or parts thereof? Some folks can do e-mail but can't webulate. And having said all these things about the FAQ, I'm willing to do some work on it, like writing updated entries and/or making regular reposts happen. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 3 months

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The SWTPC 6800 Repair Quest Continues

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> <> If the problem is fast sneaky pulses, how do I detect this? What's the <> easiest way and, barring that, what's the most effective way even if it <> difficult? <> <> Anthony Clifton - Wirehead Cheat, lift (bend) the D input pin so it's not in the socket and pull it up to +5v through a resistor (1k-or most anything). lacking that let it float unconnected and see what the output does. Guarentees a logic one in and Q=1 out. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Question for the Faq - If there is o

by szewczykm＠hcgi.com

What kind of stores are you hitting that you are having such luck? Today - I stopped into a local pawn shop - a rare place in the suburbs - and picked up an Atari 520ST and an Atari SF354 disk drive sans cables and power supplies. My first pawn shop find. I passed on a IIgs they had, but I was tempted. What I'm really looking for is a IIe. Mike -----Original Message----- From: rigdonj(a)intellistar.net [mailto:MIME @INTERNET {rigdonj(a)intellistar.net}] Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 1998 7:18 AM To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Question for the Faq - If there is one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Mike, I'm in the central Florida area and I've had darned good luck here. In the last couple of months I have acquired; Altair 8800a, IBM 5100, 2 AT&T 3B2s, AT&T 3B1, 2 Tandy 6000s, a bunch of HPs, and two Commodore Pets, etc. I pass up Compaq and KayPro luggables, Timexs, NCRs, and stuff like that *EVERY* day. Even passed up a DEC last week. If you get down this way, I'll give you a tour of some good places to hit. Joe At 12:48 PM 3/17/98 -0600, you wrote: > >If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself but >I'm no where near qualified to do so. > >Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will >be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old >equipment? > >Thanks - Mike > >

28 years, 3 months

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Archive Corp FT60 Adapter Board Jumper Settings

by dar617＠idirect.com

Skipped content of type multipart/alternative

28 years, 3 months

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Irreverence to irrelevance

by dastar＠wco.com

This message is directed to those individuals who care that this mailing list has slowly degraded into a usenet newsgroup. The rest of you can continue to be unconcerned and skip this message. Its obvious that this mailing list needs an overhaul. Any attempts to steer it back to its proper course of discussion have been either ridiculed or ignored. Again, this goes back to my argument a few weeks back when the noise was at its loudest, which is that it all boils down to common courtesy and respect. In my normal life, I make it a point to break the rules and live against convention. I can do that without disturbing the rest of my fellow humans because the impact of my actions doesn't reach very far. Plus I don't flout convention just to flout convention, thereby inconveniencing others. However, in this tight-knit community where the slightest ripple builds into a wave and then a tsunami, it is not appropriate to continually transcend the intended use of this forum for one's own personal amusement. When you're in close quarters, you don't fart unless you're an asshole. The quality of the PEOPLE on this mailing list has declined considerably. It used to be that Bill screened participants before they were allowed to join, thereby filtering out the potential riff raff. The community we used to have, although semi-exclusive, did produce some excellent discussion material. However, now that Bill has fallen off the face of the earth and just about anyone with half a brain can join, a good majority of the discussion at times is off-topic and boorish. The worst case is the one-line reply to the hundred line quoted message. It used to be fun to read about classic computers. Now its pretty lame reading about [insert off-topic shit here]. I think the best approach to this would be to let this stupid mailing list die out and start an alternate forum. So I'm going to do just that. I'm beginning work on a web BBS which will have multiple topic areas. It will be semi-moderated and any inkling of off-topic blather will be expunged promptly. Better yet, I may even decide to turn it into a classic BBS running on a classic system (I can resurrect the never finished BBS software I was writing on my Apple //e). That way, those interested in joining will have to take some effort to do so, which will eliminate the casual turd. I'll let interested parties know when this is completed and ready for beta. Please e-mail me (need I add "privately"?) with any tips or suggestions you may have. Your input would be greatly appreciated. Your criticisms will be answered with fantasticly cruel insults and derision. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

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More: Irreverence to irrelevance

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

I would think that constructive suggestions would accomplish much more than flame bait like calling folk "turds". Suggestions: Why not steer those who can do nntp to alt.folklore.computers? a.f.c carries discussions on all aspects of computer history, including many of the topics discussed here. Before flaming folk for ignoring the FAQ, make it readily available. Stick the FAQ URL at the bottom of every re-mailed message to act as a constant reminder. Experienced users tend to ignore belligerent posts rather then respond to them and waste time with pointless arguments. A gentle reminder to read the FAQ will often suffice. Finally: moderate, or get off the pot. Have you ever been a member of a committee without a chairman? Can you say: slugfest? -- David Wollmann dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com

28 years, 3 months

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A House Divided Against itself...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Don't forget the above phrase. It CAN'T stand. Make no mistake. Sam, you've made some mistakes. LETS NOT LOSE ANY MEMBERS OVER THIS. IT'S IMPORTANT, AT LEAST TO ME. I KNOW THAT I'VE BEEN PART OF THE PROBLEM, BUT I WANT TO BE A GREATER PART OF THE SOLUTION. Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 3 months

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FAQ and the re-mailer

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

Would it be a) desirable, b) possible to have the remailer append a very short text to each outgoing message with "Read the faq: <FAQ URL>"? This is what Red Hat do with their lists, and it's quite handy. Sure some people ignore it, but it's always there to refer people to--it's in every message in the list and most folk can just cut 'n paste the URL or double-click it to refer the FAQ. -- David Wollmann dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com

28 years, 3 months

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Irreverence to irrelevance

by jthiemann＠castleton.com

> -----Original Message----- > From: John Foust [SMTP:jfoust@threedee.com] > Sent: March 18, 1998 10:23 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Irreverence to irrelevance > > I've always thought a much more sensible approach is the private > news server. It allows pruning of unruly threads, either by the > reader (ignoring off-topic subjects) or by a B.D. who trims > away junk messages. It allows auto-archiving. It doesn't clog > mail routes and mail boxes. You can read it with any Usenet news > reader, > just point to someone else's server. It would be easy to split > into .hardware, .software, .culture sub-groups. > A private news server is a Bad Thing for those of us sitting at work with a firewall inbetween ourselves and the net. I do not think I will have much success convincing the firewall admins to allow news traffic to go through. -------------------------------------------- Joachim Thiemann DSP Coder, Castleton Network Systems I doubt therefore I might be.

28 years, 3 months

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DG/UX for AViiON AV-400 system?

by rkneusel＠post.its.mcw.edu

My brother recently purchased a Data General AViiON AV-400 machine at an auction ($20) It is in a tower case and has 16 MB RAM, 320 MB SCSI hard drive. He was told by someone at DG that it runs at 20 MHz using a Motorola 88000 processor. He was able to get the machine to talk to a PC connected to the com port and it works and comes up with DG/UX Bootstrap version 4.3 error, logical partition not found (or similar wording) Does this mean: (a) the SCSI drive is bad (b) the OS has been deleted And, if (b) how would he get a version of DG/UX or is there another flavor of Unix that would run on the machine? There is very little on the net about these beasts. Any help appreciated! - Ron Kneusel rkneusel(a)mcw.edu

28 years, 3 months

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Altair 8800...why not 8080?

by dastar＠wco.com

How come MITS used 8800 for the Altair and not 8080? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

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PN2400SA

by fmc＠reanimators.org

"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: > No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away > on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some > reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200. This is a Practical Peripherals 2400SA, right? Little white plastic modem with a sloped front with modem-blinkenlights? I think this is the kind of modem that taught me that when they label one jack "line" and the other jack "phone" they may mean it. When I got it wrong the modem behaved as above: it would go off-hook and dial but not connect. Except that they didn't label the jacks on the modem, you had to look in the manual if you wanted to know which was which. But there's only two ways to do it, so put the cable that goes to the wall jack in the *other* modem jack and see if that makes it work. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 3 months

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handy URLs

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Now, back to on-topicness... for those of you that collect IBM family one machines, i've found an interesting place with pics, info, and other related links. web over to WWW.CAN.IBM.COM/HELPWARE/VINTAGE.HTML david

28 years, 3 months

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Classiccmp FAQ > PLEASE READ IT ASAP

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Kudos to Doug Youza for the Classiccmp FAQ at www.yowza.com/classiccmp/faq.txt I downloaded this and read it last night. If you care about this List and have any consideration for those of us who want to talk vintage computer only, PLEASE READ THE FAQ, especially section 2.8 (check your personal drivel at the door). I'm a newcomer to the Classiccmp List and have found that with all the off topic (I hope I haven't been guilty of this, I've certainly tried to be on topic) postings the List is somewhat like a cow pasture, you need to watch where you step. I wade through countless inane, insipid and irrelevant postings. Why? Let's keep on topic and keep personalities off the list and private. Abide by section 2.8 and all of us will benefit. Marty Mintzell

28 years, 3 months

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AT&T Unix PC 7300....

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

I found one for sale with OS and extras, can anyone give me some feedback on it? Maybe what a fair price would be? Thanks, Aaron

28 years, 3 months

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Question for the Faq - If there is one.

by szewczykm＠hcgi.com

If there's no FAQ there probably should be one. I'd start one myself but I'm no where near qualified to do so. Anyhow, here's something that I'm sure has been asked and probably will be asked again - What are the top ten hotspots for finding old equipment? Thanks - Mike

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by peacock＠simconv.com

>MS bashing in a MODERN context is off-topic, yes, but saying how >BASIC for the Altair was bloated certainly is the best of both worlds >IMHO. But to go even further back, was there any IBM-bashing before >the 80's? a 4KB paper tape Basic for the Altair was bloated? Compared to what, the 2KB Tiny Basic Dr. Dobbs was pushing? At least you got paper tape for the Altair, the Dr. Dobbs version you had to type in from very small print in the magazine. And most important, Bill's 4K Basic worked, did anyone ever get the IMSAI paper tape Basic to work? (We gave up and threw ours away after several futile tries) IBM bashing before PCs? As an old Univac/CDC type I can swear (with fingers crossed behind back) we never said a single bad word about OS/360 or the blazing speed of a 360/20, and we always envied the S/3ers their MFCU and the cute little 96 col. cards. Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: ] To be fair, analog computers can do things digital computers can't. For ] example, a digital computer can only approximate 1.0/3.0 whereas an ] analog box has no trouble with this. Certain ops would also be much Actually, you've got that backwards. Contained in your message above is a totally accurate digital representation of 1/3. Oh, there it is again, at the end of that sentence. It is an analog measure of this that would lack precision. OBCC: Is there any such thing as a stored-program analog computer? I guess Babbage's analytic engine would fit that category, but all of the other analog "computers" that I've heard of (not many) just performed some fixed calculation. In my book, a stored program with sequence-control makes the difference between a computer and a calculator, manufacturer's labelling notwithstanding. Bill.

28 years, 3 months

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Chunk-o-FAQ

by fmc＠reanimators.org

The other day someone re-posted section 2.8 of the FAQ and I thought it might be a good idea to repost sections 1 and 2 in their entirety, as they address what the list is about and what sorts of traffic are appropriate. I didn't write this. Bill Whitson did, and posted it to the list in early July 1977 (thanks, Bill). All I did was snarf it from http://www.heydon.org/kevan/classiccmp/1997-07/msg00028.html (thanks, Kevan). I have no comment on this. I am merely posting it for the benefit of those who haven't seen it before, and those who have, but (like me) didn't have a copy handy and need a refresher to figure out just what is irritating some folks so. -Frank McConnell --- begin included text --- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods if you actually need info on them, not just to show off. 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. --- end included text ---

28 years, 3 months

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pdp11s, anyone??

by jritorto＠tsoft.com

Hello folks. I just moved into the SF bay area and found myself terribly uncomfortable without my trusty pdp11, which I had to leave in Pennsylvania due to space constraints. I just now subscribed to this list, so I haven't seen any of the messages lately. My question is: Are there any pdp11s being offered for sale/free anywhere near oakland, ca? thanks for any replies. jake

28 years, 3 months

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History of OSs?

by peacock＠simconv.com

>The dos geneology is roughly... > >DEC PDP-8 OS/8 (pip, stat, dir)--> RT-11/RSTS/RSX11--> > CPM-80--> > CPM86--> > dos-1.0--> > >The VAX OS line up VMS is off the RSX11 part fo the PDP-11 tree. > >DOS was a translation of 8080 CPM-80 to 8086 by seattle computer. Unix >has been an influence but largely not that great. > >UNIX has it's own tree and there are to say the least many flavors some >of which even resemble each other. >Allison To add in a bit more.... CP/M comes directly from RT-11 and the RSTS tree. Even the PIP command (peripheral interchance program) was very similar to the RT-11 version of PIP. CP/M had a more sophisticated file system than RT-11, but less sophisticated device drivers. VMS was not the first virtual memory OS that DEC wrote. TOPS-20, for the PDP-20 (that was a PDP-10 with virtual memory) was the first virtual system. TOPS-20 was not the same as TOPS-10, even the system calls were invoked a different way. (My first real systems programming job was on a 20/40, a joy to work on, tho slow by modern standards). Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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INTEL PDS-100

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Any idea where I might find documentation for Intel PDS-100? Same place I can find a winning powerball lottery ticket I suppose? Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100 Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 3/17/98 12:51 PM <Marty wrote: <> <> I have an Intel PDS-100 Personal Development System but no manuals or <> information on this unit. It is from 1979-1982 I believe, and has two <> prom programming boards with it. The unit is the size of a slightly <> large pc, has a carrying handle with built in monitor, keyboard and <> two 5 1/4" half height floppy drives. It was introduced later in the 1983-85 time frame. 1979 would have been the more expensive and heavy MDS-2xx series. I believe the native OS was ISIS though it's possible that IRMX was also available and CPM as well from third parties. Allison ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Mar17.125113.1767.32401; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:51:14 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with SMTP id JAA08473; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:40:54 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA20252 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:40:38 -0800 Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESMTP id JAA06258 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:40:36 -0800 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA17968; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA18685; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:40:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199803171740.AA18685(a)world.std.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:40:32 -0500 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: INTEL PDS-100 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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AT&T Unix PC 7300....

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

I have two one for $30 at Goodwill and one for $15 from scrape dealer. Now the same Goodwill has sold about 10 more complete with mouse and everything for $20 each. Good Luck with yours. John At 04:12 PM 3/17/98 -0800, you wrote: >I found one for sale with OS and extras, can anyone give me some feedback >on it? Maybe what a fair price would be? > >Thanks, > >Aaron > > >

28 years, 3 months

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PN2400SA

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

No, that's not the problem. I can hear the other end howling away on the modem's speaker, but the modem doesn't recognize it for some reason. I want this thing to work so I could replace my 1200. >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Subject: Re: PN2400SA > > > >>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier. >>I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and >>the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT >>reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have >>a feeling it's something else. Ideas? >> >Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are using >Line and not Phone > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

yo

by dastar＠wco.com

Message with no relevant information, and especially having nothing to do with this mailing list. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

PN2400SA

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier. I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have a feeling it's something else. Ideas? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

PN2400SA

by peacock＠simconv.com

>I typed AT&F, the modem said OK, but it still ignored the carrier. >I even tried ATZ. I looked at its current settings with AT&V, and >the ones that I knew were fine. The ones that were not in my AT >reference guide (to another modem) were, for example &Qx. But I have >a feeling it's something else. Ideas? > Does this one have separate Line and Phone jacks? Make sure you are using Line and not Phone

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Hitachi 2.8" (was Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...)

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-15 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :However, there are 2 things that spring to mind. Firstly Hitachi :were associated with the Compact Floppy disks which are normally :called 3" disks. I've just measured one and : :It's a black plastic case measuring 3+1/8" * 3+7/8" * 3/16" :I've attempted to measure the actual disk through holes in the case, :and it meassures 2.8" in diameter, or thereabouts those'll be the things amstrad used ad nauseam, yep? you can post them for special concessionary cassette rates in japan, we're told - it kept them alive a little while longer than they should have stayed... ;> :Secondly, I've heard of 2.75" disk drives. Some of them were :_sequential_ access - there was no separate head possitioner, it :was driven by the spindle motor. You had to start at the outside of :the disk and read all the data up to the point that you wanted. quick disks. msx used them, as did a few early samplers (roland s10, akai s612(?), etc) and a few other bits. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

3
2
0 0

Question for the Faq - If there is one.

by peacock＠simconv.com

How about initial procedures when you get some new treasure recently saved from the greedy jaws of the salvagers. Things like: blow out the dirt, check for burnt/obviously damaged components, frayed or pinched cables, reseat socketed parts and clean off any corrosion or "purple plague" on the IC pins, power supply outputs, loose screws dropped in the power supply or motherboard. And most important of all....make copies of the schematics and boot disks. Another idea for the FAQ: if it isn't restorable, at least pull all the socketed ICs (and put them in static foam) so someone else might be able to restore one. I keep a big box of old parts from boards I have tossed. Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

6
7
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System names

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Be careful not jam the (diskette) magazines ;) > >[Kamikaze Pilot] > >Isn't that what's referred to as Shotgun Debugging? >------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Robots again

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

At 04:34 AM 3/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >Exactly. All of the useful ideas from AI that became mainstream are no >longer considered AI. Today, OCR, speach recognition, machine >translation, and predictive analysis are off-the-shell apps or embedded in >products like Microsoft Word to help catch your spelling and grammar >errors. What was once the stuff of science fiction epics is now mundane? > >There are still interesting problems, though. Machines can kick your >chess-playing butt, but you won't find one nearly coordinated enough to >hit a baseball and run around a few bases. IMHO, AI researchers have >overestimated the brainstuff and underestimated the sensor and actuator >stuff. Here's my theory of how you learn to speak, for example: > I have always thought that digital computers would never allow us to achieve the ultimate goal of replicting a learning organism. Aren't we just simple conceptual pattern recognition machines? It seems like an analog computer, capable of integration of raw percepts and conceptualization at high speeds, could actually learn and become better and faster than man at thinking and working. If a computer could search a text file for a pattern using the same method as humans, i.e. looking for a shape as the first indicator of a match, rather than a discreet chacter pattern, it would be able to process text much faster than a digital machine. I think it was Ayn Rand's "Objectivist Epistemology" that got me thinking along these lines. > >-- Doug > > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats.

28 years, 3 months

7
10
0 0

Preserving software

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

If you are referring to the Computer museum on Boston Harbor, it's fine. I have no idea what they would do with anything anyone might give them, though. They don't have much space... > >Spring cleaning is approaching, and the storage bins are overflowing. I >have a lot of old PC applications, and I'd like to get rid of them, but >would prefer to see them preserved. Is the Boston museum still in >operation, and if so are they interested in preserving old PC apps? > >I'm hoping that I can find my Microport Unix while I'm at it--I want to >build one of my old ATs and install it, just for fun. > >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for >IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-15 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :FYI the Extended BASIC interpreter for CP/M-80 and the BASCOM :Compiler for CP/M-80 were excellent products. Neither were :bloatware by any standard. you know, we've heard it mooted that bill gates himself is not a bad programmer. we've also heard that the last thing he worked on in person was the software for the kyocera laptops of the mid 80s. perhaps this is the problem... we have a suspicion that bill gates uses macs - hence the cash investment ;> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Strange board

by pjoules＠enterprise.net

I have a board which came in a job lot from a bankruptcy sale about 10 years ago. I wonder if anyone can identify it. The only writing on it says 'SYKES' and '9000 MP CONTROLLER'. The most prominent chip is marked MCS6502. It has rows of small chips indexed along the edge of the board A..Y down one side and 1..9 along the short edge. It is about 6" X 10" and has a 12 contact edge connector and two sockets, one of 40 and one of 50 pins either side of the edge connector. There are 3 chips which are (obviously?) memory as they are labelled D1/FC00, F1/FA00 and K1/FE00. There is also a 16MHz crystal oscillator. Any ideas what it might be? Regards Pete

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I quote the FAQ 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. Please please guys and gals; Check your anti-MS baggage at the door. Talk Classic computers.... classic computers.... classic computers. Furthermore, classic computers... classic computers... get the idea? A

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-15 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :Can someone help Bill out? Anyone have a copy of the FAQ lying :around? can you make that two copies? we could use one. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Robots again

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :Perhaps :incredibly, Turing _did_ believe that there was something special :about the brain (in particular he could/would not rule out ESP) and :so I don't think he would ever have claimed that a Turing Machine :could do anything that a human brain could. The TM was designed to :solve a specific problem in mathematical theory, rather than as a :theoretical ultimate brain. no, the brain/intelligence thing came with the "turing *test*" which is the idea that you could converse with a computer on one terminal, a human on another, and not be able to reliably identify which was which. (turing was a complex, fascinating, and very innocent human, and he was treated despicably by the british government after the second world war.) :But now you've got me trying to think of something that an :analog(ue) computer can do that a digital one can't. fuzzy logic...? ;> -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-16 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :You know Bruce, it's offensive unthinking tirades like yours that :make me want to unsubscribe from this list and throw my classic :computers in the dumpster just so I would no longer have to count :myself among your company. :Please give me an insight as to _your_ life's work so that I may :call it a steaming pile of horseshit as well. hey, kai, calm down, everyone has to start somewhere... ;> seriously, we very much doubt that everyone in microsoft is set upon filling the world with shite software that slows everything to a dawdle and destroys competition. however, what peeves us is (a) that microsoft *have* eliminated competition to a large extent - it's just not healthy! especially when mr gates has to resort to injecting cash into his most innovative competitor to keep them in that position (hell, alive!) - and (b) that microsoft produce software with the emphasis perpetually on getting people into computers, widening the accessibility of machines, but not really improving in the way that people who need to use and develop with computers for a living require. microsoft, even more than apple these days, produces software "for the rest of us" (inasmuch as the rest of 'em don't try anything ambitious) but microsoft products don't include the necessary hooks and extensibility whereby an expert can get through the easy-features and do things properly with the minimum of interruption. if you can carry that message back to the powers that be, we'd all be very much happier out here. we'd still be worried about the future, because of the lack of competition, but at least it might not be a future of unmitigated mediocrity. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

What's with the raw HTML?

by pjoules＠coleg-powys.ac.uk

From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net> >If you can't communicate your meaning with plain text, you better go back >and rethink what you're trying to say. Mind you, I don't expect everyone >to be a Robert Frost or William Shakespeare, but you should be able to >convey an idea in your native tongue. > Although English would be preferred despite the fact that it is not the native tongue worldwide ;-) Regards Pete

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

At 06:01 PM 3/16/98 -0500, you wrote: [snip] >> Is it this dearth of technical information that accounts for the lack of >> interest in collecting old IBM? > >Yes. That and the general unhackability of the minis. And that most people >hate them. And that most universities had DECs and such in their CS >departments. And the weird parts. > >But wait... > [snip] > >I think also that many people really think that the old IBMs are junk. >They really are not. Amen. You just need manuals, lots and lots of them. >I just purchased (finally found, really) a copy of >*IBM's System/360 and Early 370 Computers*, and a casual quick read >revealed that the S/360 really were very advanced machines, many of >inovations are commonplace today. Other systems, like some of the minis, >have bizarre architectures that, once inside, are fascinating. A lack of >decent development tools, however, is a real crutch. C for the S/3x line >(even Small-C) would be great. I think a lot of people fail to consider that the IBM midrange and mainframes were designed to run businesses without down time--the philosophy of the engineers has always been to keep those pesky hackers out of the system. By hackers, I mean real programmers. Of course the 360 was supposed to be an "all around machine," but from what I've seen, business rules at IBM. >Anyway, send me your old IBMs, size it not a problem (while I gaze at the >photo of the multiprocessing S/370 installation). I would if I could afford the freight. ;) I'd still like to get a 5360 to run Displaywrite/36 folder extractions on, but I have to get the 'Vette out of the garage and install air conditioning in the there before I can even think about it. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > > -- David Wollmann dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com

28 years, 3 months

3
7
0 0

History of OSs?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Does anyone know of a more-or-less comprehensive history of Operating <Systems online? I'd like to come up to speed on the OSs that are being Unknown try alta vista. <I'd be very interested to see a geneology tree--I've noticed some Unix <genes in DOS (few) and I'm told it was based in part on things CP/M was <doing at the time. The dos geneology is roughly... DEC PDP-8 OS/8 (pip, stat, dir)--> RT-11/RSTS/RSX11--> CPM-80--> CPM86--> dos-1.0--> The VAX OS line up VMS is off the RSX11 part fo the PDP-11 tree. DOS was a translation of 8080 CPM-80 to 8086 by seattle computer. Unix has been an influence but largely not that great. UNIX has it's own tree and there are to say the least many flavors some of which even resemble each other. Allison

28 years, 3 months

3
2
0 0

NS 57109?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Anybody got info on a Nat. Semi. 57109 "Number Oriented Processor"? I've got one on a "calculator interface" board, that I suspect was a primitive math coprocessor. I'd love to get specs on it, and/or replacement chips in case this one dies. advTHANKSance, Bill.

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

tandata td-1600

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I've just received notice of a system.... "have you heard of a Tandata Td-1600? It was one of those Telecom computers I believe. It has a Z1 chip in it (whatever that may be) which I know is not a Z-80 but may be of interest to you just the same. It has a PS and all the right lights seem to be working. RF and RGB monitor outputs." I have no idea what this thing is. Have any of the readers of this list any more information? Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

Preserving software

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

Spring cleaning is approaching, and the storage bins are overflowing. I have a lot of old PC applications, and I'd like to get rid of them, but would prefer to see them preserved. Is the Boston museum still in operation, and if so are they interested in preserving old PC apps? I'm hoping that I can find my Microport Unix while I'm at it--I want to build one of my old ATs and install it, just for fun. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats.

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

System names

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >On 17 Mar 98 at 5:58, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > >> Besides, I name all my machines after >> Sailormoon characters. ------- What names are these (I'm not familiar w/sailor moon)? > >I name systems on my home network after ships from different >anime; Lovely Angel, White Base, Sol Bianca, etc. Guess it comes >from working around the stuff all day. Haven't settled on a name for >my PDP-11/34 yet. I find that if I ever want to address my system by name, I had better not say it anyway ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

INTEL PDS-100

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Marty wrote: <> <> I have an Intel PDS-100 Personal Development System but no manuals or <> information on this unit. It is from 1979-1982 I believe, and has two <> prom programming boards with it. The unit is the size of a slightly <> large pc, has a carrying handle with built in monitor, keyboard and <> two 5 1/4" half height floppy drives. It was introduced later in the 1983-85 time frame. 1979 would have been the more expensive and heavy MDS-2xx series. I believe the native OS was ISIS though it's possible that IRMX was also available and CPM as well from third parties. Allison

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

System names

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I name systems on my home network after ships from different <anime; Lovely Angel, White Base, Sol Bianca, etc. Guess it comes I name mine after light aircraft. Piper, Cessna, Mooney, Beech, J3CUB, STINSN and an oddball vaxen that was with me during my DEC days VIDSYS::. I have to name a unix pdp11 now. Allison

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Ultrix: Which Unix is it based on?

by kyrrin＠jps.net

This is a general question (and a return to topic -- sorry, I didn't mean to start a whole meaningless thread) for my fellow DEC'ers or anyone else with knowledge on the subject; which Unix is Ultrix (notably 4.3) based on, and how badly did DEC bastardize it? It would help me to know, 'cause I plan to use an Ultrix box as a mail processor eventually. Thanks! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

INTEL PDS-100

by Marty＠itgonline.com

I have an Intel PDS-100 Personal Development System but no manuals or information on this unit. It is from 1979-1982 I believe, and has two prom programming boards with it. The unit is the size of a slightly large pc, has a carrying handle with built in monitor, keyboard and two 5 1/4" half height floppy drives. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Marty Mintzell email:marty@itgonline.com

28 years, 3 months

2
1
0 0

History of OSs?

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

Does anyone know of a more-or-less comprehensive history of Operating Systems online? I'd like to come up to speed on the OSs that are being discussed here--some of them sound very interesting. I'd be very interested to see a geneology tree--I've noticed some Unix genes in DOS (few) and I'm told it was based in part on things CP/M was doing at the time. -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats.

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Stop ATTACKING! (Especially Microsoft!)

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

The more that I think about this, the more that I hate it. People are attacking Microsoft, which I think is *very unfair.*. Sure, they've always got their eye on being the undisputed leader. But is that any different >from what Intel, DEC, Apple, or any other company, no matter how grand in technologies wants? Is that different from what *you* want? So, Microsoft's outgrown itself. For instance, it takes weeks to get a tech support reply back. So what? They're stepping into new territories, that they don't really know about. It makes *competition*, what brings out the best in companies, people, and prices. Anti-competitive measures? Everyone tries them, the only problem is when they *work*. Then, we get upset. For instance, Sun closing software and hardware design discourages competition. It's the same with drivers, hardware specs, and why companies keep most beta information under wraps. So, we've had our fun. We've stated our opinions. Time will prove us right, wrong, or indifferent. Let's let it take it's cource. And, enjoy it while we're on our way. Flaming isn't a solution, it's a problem. I implore you to think of this. Thanks for your time, Tim D. Hotze

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Tirades? Since when?

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Kai Kaltenbech chose to produce the following... >Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:45:01 -0800 >From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> >To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >Subject: RE: Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again.... >You know Bruce, it's offensive unthinking tirades like yours that make me >want to unsubscribe from this list and throw my classic computers in the >dumpster just so I would no longer have to count myself among your company. I'm truly sorry you feel that way. I notice that you work for Microsoft. With that in mind, your own statements are very understandable. I would point out that I have not attacked you, personally, in any way. You have given me no reason to. You, on the other wing, seem intent on attacking me strictly on the basis of my statement of a personal opinion. Chill out, have a brew, sit back, and think about this for a minute. Who's the one that really produced the "unthinking tirade?" ;-) We are all entitled to our own opinions. I welcome the fact that you obviously disagree with me (if everyone on the planet agreed on everything, I think we'd all be in more trouble than we are now, as a race!). If you would like clarification on why I feel the way I do, and the basis behind my statements, feel free to E-mail me so we don't end up cluttering the list. If you do not feel inclined to do so, that's no problem either. I will say this much and let it go. I have no great love for Microsoft products or for Billy-boy Gates' arrogant attitudes. I am not alone in these beliefs. I am a firm believer in consumer choice for hardware and software. Microsoft seems to support that choice -- as long as it's Microsoft's code-bloated, resource-wasteful software that is chosen. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get to work. BTW, my apologies to the other readers of this list. This is the last you'll hear from me on this thread. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again.../old basics

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Does anyone remember Basic5, for CP/M IIRC? It was a 5k Basic which <took up about 8k. As for small languages, ETI published 'Simple' for I do and I have about a truckload of different basics for 8080/z80. The WC CP/M cdrom has at least that many and I haven't looked at all the CPMUG and SIGM files. amoung them: LLL basic Li Chen Wang TBX TINY basic TDL 5k basic Zbasic NS* basic Ebasic Cbasic Sbasic MITS8k MS 8k basic in rom (netronics explorer). MS BASCOM MS extended disk basic I'll bet this is not a definitive list either. <the 8080 c.1977 which was a non-trivial self-contained interactive <interpreter, in 256 bytes including space for your own UART drivers. Simple yes, useful? Allison

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Doesn't help much, sorry. COmmon Business Oriented Language and you say that the C is the only part that's good? What is COBOL like, anyway? >>What's wrong with COBOL? > >The OBOL part. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

PM2400SA

by jfoust＠threedee.com

"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >A few years ago, I got a Practical Peripherals thing which was >supposed to be a modem. The model number is PM2400SA. It is external. >It dials out, but for some reason, does not connect when the carrier >on the other end starts. Could someone tell me what this thing is? I believe that's called a "non-functional modem". Try "AT&F" to see if it's resettable to factory defaults. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

PDP parts rescue in Hannover Germany

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Subject: Hardware for PDP From: H G Duehring <duhring(a)meister.aball.de> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:46:52 +0100 Organization: aball Internet Netzdienste GmbH, Hannover, Germany Newsgroups: vmsnet.pdp-11 I give some hardware for free for UNIBUS and PDP 11/34, pick up by yourself in Germany: RL01/02 Drives ; differtent boards ; R;L01/02 Disks. RX01/02 parts ; 8" Diskettes. RX50 Drives ; RD 51 Drives ; LA50 Printers ; VR201 Screens.

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again...

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> wrote: >Please give me an insight as to _your_ life's work so that I may call it a >steaming pile of horseshit as well. Is this the first time you've heard someone criticize Microsoft or its products? >You know Bruce, it's offensive unthinking tirades like yours that make me >want to unsubscribe from this list and throw my classic computers in the >dumpster just so I would no longer have to count myself among your company. I'd be glad to pay shipping... Do you have a web page describing what you're giving away? :-) Me? I find myself defending Bill at every turn, and that has nothing to do with sending him/you thousands of dollars a year. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

MS bashing in a MODERN context is off-topic, yes, but saying how BASIC for the Altair was bloated certainly is the best of both worlds IMHO. But to go even further back, was there any IBM-bashing before the 80's? >I'd like to see less Microsoft bashing in my inbox; I'm on this list for >the discussion of classic computers, NOT the benefits of Linux vs Windows, >NOR the arguments about HTML. If the FAQ/guidelines for the mailing list >say NO HTML, thats all there need be said... "read the FAQ". Please, lets >cut down the traffic on these subjects and get back to the things we all >enjoy discussing!!! >A > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

6
8
0 0

sord m5 files

by cechy＠jitel.cz

Have anybody some Sord M5 related files ? ( manuals etc.). I have all this in paper version and electronic kind of this is practical. I need Sord m5 FD drive files- floppy disk with system utilities and docs about this all. Donor of this things will be first where I send SW emulator of this comp. for PC. Thank you ... -- S pozdravem ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jiri Cechmeister - TOPCAD, Electronic and Software Development Demlova 4, 58601 JIHLAVA, CZ, phone /fax : +420 66 31051 http://www.topcad.anet.cz , e-mail: cechy(a)jitel.cz ----------------------------------------------------------------------

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Apple 1 at Fry's!

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:50 PM 3/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >For those in Silicon Valley who haven't been to the new Fry's in >Sunnyvale: go check out CHAC's Apple 1 on display. Unlike the gaudy Mayan >and Aztec themes of some other recent Fry's, this one has sort of an art >deco theme with large posters of HP35s, Xerox Altos, and other machines >worthy of worship. Nah, don't need to. Had it in my living room for a night a couple of years ago. 8^) (Well, actually, it was all packaged for transport and I didn't dare open it up, so maybe I will...) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

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Robots again

by adam＠merlin.net.au

>"We are a lot closer to being able to create an artificial human than we >are to being able to comprehend the consequences of creating an >artificial human." > >I realise that this is not *directly* about +10 year old computer systems, >but it does directly relate to the them and their role in the history of >this field (which is what I originally asked the list about). Does anyone >on the list want to take it outside to a temporary list to discuss the >moral/ethical/probability issues of artificial life? Let me know by >email and I'll set one up. If you choose to set one up, this is what my thesis is all about - the moral status of such AI systems should they ever be created. :) Adam.

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 06:23 PM 3/15/98 -0500, you wrote: >need for a company to have a fancy letterhead, nor a mass mailer to have >colored brochures, nor ladies to have flowered and/or scented stationery, >yet we do have all these things, and more. Consider how boring text-only, Note that for most of these, there is no difference to the recipient. It doesn't take any longer to open a color brochure than one in black and white, logos don't take up any more space than the text, etc. In terms of e-mail, it's completely different. Those logos do take up space, color stuff does take longer to download. (And btw, there are a lot of people who are very allergic to the scented ads included with Macy's bills, and even a fair number of us who just get nauseated.) >not trivial point. Nevertheless, technology marches on, and as cable modems >(or whatever) become the norm rather than the exception, "waste" of Really? As of last fall, 80% of americans accessed the net at 14.4Kbps or less. (According to a speaker at the Bay Area Internet Users Group.) Add in the rest of the world and that goes way down. Damn yanks, always thinking nobody else matters! >public at large. If my wife wants to embed scanned newspaper clippings or a >kid's picture in an email to her cousin across country, who am I (or anyone) >to object? That's a different matter. If I send an e-mail to a potential client touting my services, that's one thing. To send a message selling used golf balls to every e-mail address I can find, that's spam. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 03:20 PM 3/15/98 +0000, you wrote: >All too often, formatting, multiple fonts, embedded pictures, colour, etc >are used as a replacement for content. I've got plenty of monospaced >documents with ascii-art diagrams that provide useful information, and an >equal number of nicely formatted documents with pictures that contain no >information at all. Substitute "web pages" for "documents" and it would be just as true. If you can't communicate your meaning with plain text, you better go back and rethink what you're trying to say. Mind you, I don't expect everyone to be a Robert Frost or William Shakespeare, but you should be able to convey an idea in your native tongue. Email is meant for communicating. Me, I use Eudora. It dumps that sort of thing into a disk file in my download directory; periodically I go and clean it up. Mind you, I love the web, I think it's the best thing since sliced bread. It's simple, powerful, and really lets you do a lot without a lot of resources. (I've developed web pages on my portfolio, and view them regularly under DOS with Arachne.) But it's not intended for e-mail. Putting HTML in an e-mail message is like sending a video tape of yourself instead of a letter. It works, some people might prefer it, even need it, but for most people, what you've got to say isn't worth setting up a VCR/TV and sitting around to listen to you. If you really need e-mail in color with different size/font text, get yourself a subscription to penthouse. You'll be much happier in the long run. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

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I have located Heaven... and it's inside ATS.

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:46 AM 3/14/98 -0800, you wrote: >> PS: NONE of this is trash! They actually USE all this stuff to test >> equipment! > >I am always amazed when you express amazement that computers that aren't >brand new are being used to do useful stuff :-). Ten, twenty, and >thirty-year old computers are used to run everything from gas chromotagraphy >units to MRI's, subway systems, factories, and cyclotrons, and some of us >make at least a part of our living ensuring that they continue to do the job. I'm currently working with Long's Drugs, a chain of pharmacies (up to 352 this week!) in the western US. About 15 years ago or so, they put an HP3000 in each store to manage the pharmacy systems. They're still there. Most of the stores are micro3000's (mid 80's?) but there are still some series 42 and 40 machines out there. (I used to have a list of what was at each store somehwere.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

28 years, 3 months

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Apple 1 at Fry's!

by engine＠chac.org

At 23:50 3/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >For those in Silicon Valley who haven't been to the new Fry's in >Sunnyvale: go check out CHAC's Apple 1 on display.... It's a lot prettier in that armorglass pyramid in the Books section than it was in a brown cardboard box in my bedroom closet ;-) __________________________________________ Kip Crosby engine(a)chac.org http://www.chac.org/index.html Computer History Association of California

28 years, 3 months

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Sun 3/50 up on Ebay

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

Hi all, If anyone's interested, I put a great 3/50 up on Ebay today. I ran out of room for it (19" mono monitor). No disk, since I was using it as an X terminal, 12M ram upgrade,flat-top (not the dimple monitor-mount style). If you want, I'll give you a dimple top model with bad video in the package. I forgot to get the item number and all that, but there can't be too many 3/50's up for auction right now, eh? Regards, Aaron

28 years, 3 months

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NS 57109?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Anybody got info on a Nat. Semi. 57109 "Number Oriented Processor"? <I've got one on a "calculator interface" board, that I suspect was <a primitive math coprocessor. I'd love to get specs on it, and/or It was a calculator chip I believed based on the 4bit cop series. It's been a long time. Anyhow the board used a calculator chip despite it's slowness to avoid higher math (to 8 digits) in software. It was however not a coprocessor, it is a limited slave at best. <replacement chips in case this one dies. You might get lucky... Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What's wrong with COBOL? > >Well, according to the Jargon File (aka The Hacker's Dictionary), IBM >minis and mainframes were not liked by hackers (who prefered DEC, etc), >not only because they were generally programmed in things like Cobol, but >also because technical info was next-to-impossible to obtain. It was >difficult to do neat things with them. > >I don't know if that counts as IBM bashing or not. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by david＠mather.com

----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >I would say that 8kbasic was the first decent software product from MS >though it was soon to change in the early 80s. > >FYI the Extended BASIC interpreter for CP/M-80 and the BASCOM Compiler >for CP/M-80 were excellent products. Neither were bloatware by any >standard. Quite right. Early MS products were extremely good quality software, particularly compared to their competitors at the time. Tight, largely bug-free and with well thought-out interfaces (exclude Multiplan, but highlight MS Decathlon). Pity they couldn't (or wouldn't) keep up the good work. Does the demise of quality stem from the departure of Paul Allen? I don't know when he left MS. David "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother me." A. A. Milne Winnie-the-Pooh, Ch. 4

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Given that a fair number of us are probably reading this on dumb terminals, HTML and MIME are as out-of-place as binaries. It strikes me that the mail/HTML thing indicates something about attitudes, and I'm genuinely surprised that anyone on this list would push for HTML in e-mail. The wintel PC world thrives on style over substance; glitz rather than content. It sells to the mass market that doesn't know any better and never will. If you have nothing to say, you better say it loudly or no-one will listen. The spirit of so many of these old machines was the delicate balance between expressiveness and resource usage. As admirers of that, shouldn't we, of all people, prefer plain text whenever it suffices? Put only plain text in my mailbox, please. I'll be quite happy to visit your pictures and HTML on the web. (URL's _are_ plain text!) Bill.

28 years, 3 months

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mac drive available

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Ive got an aftermarket mac external 800k drive if anyone wants it. it wont read a disk even after cleaning. its about the same size but a bit heavier than the 400k mac drive. otherwise it's gonna get round filed. david

28 years, 3 months

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Superbrain Schematics available

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I've just been offered a "1 foot by 2 foot" manual schematic and technical repair manual set for the Superbrain computer. The guy imported it from Intertcech, he said. On its way to me now, I'm just letting people on the list know of its availability. Cheers A

28 years, 3 months

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Update on Sun3 and shoebox

by rcini＠email.msn.com

On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:56:58 -0500 (EST), J. Maynard Gelinas <jmg(a)iac.net> wrote: {big snip about b st(0,4,0)} I did try setting the tape to both ID=4 and ID=6, both with the same results. And, no, when I created the install tape, I did not use the "osync" parameter. More to come... Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>> > Oh, CDC...Computer Dinosaur Corporation... >> >> And one I coined after I'd been given the price for some trivial spare >> part (a light bulb, I think) for a PDP11.. >> >> DEC - Darn Expensive Components :-) > >And most of the Unibus PDP-11's delivered in the 70's and early 80's had >cabinet trim and/or front panel color scheme as "Purple/Magenta", leading >to: > >PDP=Purple Data Processor IBM=Intern-run Brainless Corporation (But not any more!)

28 years, 3 months

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Bay Area Computer History Perspectives

by sethm＠loomcom.com

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 733 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980316/7f2101fe/at…

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! (now I would like a...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I still want a Cyber, however (any other 180s being decommissioned <lately?). Personally I'd love to find a Cincinati Millicron CM2000, 2100 or 2200. I haven't seen one in about 25 years. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Re.: HD jumper settings

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Thanks Don/David. Maxtor must have posted those settings after I looked about 2 months ago. All that they had at the time was the geometry information. Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================

28 years, 3 months

1
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Robots again

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >Actually, very little. Most of the AI researchers in the 70's/early 80's >were working on one of the following: > >1. PDP-10's running a very advanced operating system such as TOPS-20, What do you mean by "advanced"? >2. Things such as the Symbolics LISP machine, specifically designed for > AI research and with all sorts of spiffy hardware features that make > it automatic to do some really nice things (such as actual machine-level > "objects" that aren't just locations in memory but are real data types. I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least in C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures to it. >Unfortunately, now if you go to a CS department it's rare to see people >using anything other than generic Unix boxes. This is a crying shame, as >Unix was a pretty poor choice of OS's in 1972 (when it was started) and >on today's big computers it's a much, much poorer choice compared to >all the OS's developed by advanced research groups in the 70's and 80's. Well, would any "advanced" OS like TOPS be suitable for modern machines? Anyone want to be the second Linus Torvalds? > >To get a feel of what life was like in a AI lab, you ought to read one >(or both) of the following: > >_The Hacker's Dictionary_, compiled by Eric S. Raymond. (Yes, it is mainly >just the jargon file, but there's also essays by Raymond and others which >nicely illustrate the AI researcher's "state of mind" in the book.) > >_The UNIX-Hater's Handbook_, discusses many OS's developed in the 70's >and 80's which are far superior to Unix, but never caught on because they >weren't "lowest-common-denominator" OS's. Ironic that now it's the other way around -- we're pushing UNIX-like stuff like Linux, BeOS and Rhapsody, against DOS, Windows, NT, and MacOS ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

5
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Microsoft&Windows

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

At the risk of getting incinerated, I would like to put in my two bits on the great MS debate. You fellows tend to resemble a lot of Grand Prix drivers running down Fords and Chevvies. What it comes right down to is that there are a whole bunch of people who are doing useful things with computers who would not be if they had to depend on the equipment and software that was available before PC's, Mac's, MS-Dos and Windows. I saw the same thing with the introduction of self threading 16mm projectors about twenty five years ago. The National Film Board of Canada banned them because they chewed up film, but they made it possible for thousands of teachers to use film in their classes. Someday possibly we can run our modern computers with an operating system that comes on one single sided floppy, but until then lets appreciate what we have. Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 3 months

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URGENT..please read

by peacock＠simconv.com

>> So STAY ON TOPIC...THE >> RESTORATION, REAPIR AND USE OF OLD COMPUTERS. Unless that HTML is running on a Z80 or an F8 I'm not interested either. On topic....someone once did an S-100 memory board for Seeq 52B13 EEPROMs (2Kx8, 5v only, 6116 pinout), I think it was a 16KB board, made in the early 1980s. Does anyone have any info on this board, I don't remember the manufacturer. I have two hundred 52B13s I just found in the junk closet, thought it would be neat to have a solid state disk on the old IMSAI. These are not flash parts, each byte can be individually programmed and erased. Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Text. If the e-mail that you wish to respond to's in plain text, that's <what it'll send. The problem is that if M$ supports it, the WHOLE WORLD <suddenly has to all have HTML-ized e-mail readers. It's nice if you hav <it, but a pain in the A** if you don't. There is the little matter of some several million (or more) unix(linux, and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a standard. For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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PM2400SA

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

A few years ago, I got a Practical Peripherals thing which was supposed to be a modem. The model number is PM2400SA. It is external. It dials out, but for some reason, does not connect when the carrier on the other end starts. Could someone tell me what this thing is? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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PM2400SA

by peacock＠simconv.com

>A few years ago, I got a Practical Peripherals thing which was >supposed to be a modem. The model number is PM2400SA. It is external. >It dials out, but for some reason, does not connect when the carrier >on the other end starts. Could someone tell me what this thing is? > I think that's a 2400 baud async modem (I had one, sounds like the same model). If it doesn''t connect, maybe whatever you are calling doesn't support 2400 anymore, or it's looking for an error correcting protocol. Make sure you are on factory default (AT&F if memory serves me right). Jack Peacock

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by lisard＠zetnet.co.uk

On 1998-03-14 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said to lisard(a)zetnet.co.uk :I'm almost certain that IE4/outlook express HTMLizes email you send :from it. there is a way to turn it off, but i dont remember how one :does it. i'm staying far away from IE4 myself! make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere obscure in the settings. -- Communa (together) we remember... we'll see you falling you know soft spoken changes nothing to sing within her...

28 years, 3 months

4
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Robots again

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Very interesting. Please elaborate. My reasons for disliking OOP stems from the fact that a Windows app in C++ is much harder to understand than one in plain non-oop code. Who started oop anyway? >I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for three years. > Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't use it that way). It is >my most unfavourite language. Some of us have described Ada as a read-only >language (cf. C as a write-only language). > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
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What's with the raw HTML?

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

>> make sure you set the "send mail as text only" property somewhere >> obscure in the settings. > >Doesn't that shut down HTML for ALL mail though? You'd think a person could >specify what type messages (easily) to each person individually instead of >as a whole.-- You CAN. The IE bashing is ill-informed. It's a great product. However, in specific response to the above, you simply select that mail is responded to in the format it was sent. Quite simple and obvious. A

28 years, 3 months

1
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Robots again

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 16, 9:10, Max Eskin wrote: > >2. Things such as the Symbolics LISP machine, specifically designed for > > AI research and with all sorts of spiffy hardware features that make > > it automatic to do some really nice things (such as actual machine-level > > "objects" that aren't just locations in memory but are real data types. > I HATE object oriented stuff. Hate it, hate it, hate it. At least in > C++, Java, and Visual Basic, which have been my only expoures to it. I'be not tried VB, and almost zero Java, but I had to use Ada for three years. Ada 95 has a lot of OO features (though you needn't use it that way). It is my most unfavourite language. Some of us have described Ada as a read-only language (cf. C as a write-only language). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 3 months

1
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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>>Early MS products were extremely good quality software, >>particularly compared to their competitors at the time. Tight, largely >>bug-free and with well thought-out interfaces (exclude Multiplan, but >>highlight MS Decathlon). What is Decathlon? Is there a list of all these products somewhere? >I have a copy of Microsoft Word for DOS 4.0; looks a lot like >Multiplan. (A pity!) I prefer the Word interface to Word Perfect. Less memorizing of strange function keys >Barry Peterson bmpete(a)swbell.net >Husband to Diane, Father to Doug, >Grandfather to Zoe and Tegan. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

2
1
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Robots again

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>>If you believe Turing, there's nothing an analog computer can comput >>a digital one can't. A brain is many things: it's wet, it's analog, >>it's massively parallel. I don't think anybody believes that it's w >>or analogness that matters, but clearly a high degree of parallel >>processing seems important to solving perception problems quickly. This >>is the basic inspiration that drove Danny Hillis to create the Conne >>Machine, with 64,000 simple processors working in parallel. >Perhaps incredibly, Turing _did_ believe that there was something >special about the brain (in particular he could/would not rule out ES >and so I don't think he would ever have claimed that a Turing Machine >could do anything that a human brain could. The TM was designed to >solve a specific problem in mathematical theory, rather than as a >theoretical ultimate brain. > >But now you've got me trying to think of something that an analog(ue) >computer can do that a digital one can't. Reversibility might be one >thing. I guess it's reasonable to argue that digital computers are a >subset of analogue computers, as transistors are analogue. > >I'm going to stop thinking about this before I recurse. a)If you think about it, a neuron in the brain is very much like an AND gate or a transistor. It has multiple inputs and needs a certain amount of electricty across them for its single output to go high. b)I heard that people are working on computers with transistors so small, they would be affected by quantum laws, and thus be analog ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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ASR-33 questions

by jfoust＠threedee.com

After long hoping to get one someday, this weekend I found an Teletype ASR-33 in a dumpster at the UW-Madison surplus center. It appears to be working in most respects. In local mode, I was able to type characters although the ribbon was a bit dry. However, when it reached the right margin, it would not "return". Line feed works. The geared belt is tight, and pressing additional characters strains it and sometimes makes it "chunk" as if it were trying to jump a tooth. I tinkered with the L-shaped catch on the belt that appears to engage a lever when the carriage reaches the right side. Right now, this L-catch is to the left of the lever, which gives me the impression that it didn't catch the way it was supposed to, and now the machine is stuck in a position that I need to learn how to free. Any ideas? The data cable has nine wires to an HP-labelled edge-card connector. Is this 20 ma current loop? I thought that was just four wires. How difficult is it to get a service manual for one of these? Is there a date-code some where on it? Will it read a five-level Baudot paper tape as well as seven-bit, assuming I can translate Baudot to ASCII? - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

3
2
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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >And I just learned that it was safe to tuch motherboard/cards when your >computers on! (BTW, any one know aout DIMM stuff?) > Ciao, > >Tim D. Hotze Actually, I find most precautions such as anti-static and so forth to be baloney. I must have done every illegal thing in the book, and the only things I haven't gotten away with was plugging chips in backwards (by accident). When I was upgrading RAM in the machines in my school's MacLab, the person in charge of it constantly looked over my shoulder and bleated, "Touch the case again, Max. I want to SEE you touch the case. OK, now gently, gently, now. Oooh! Yeesh! DON'T touch those chips!",etc.etc. I didn't damage anything, but he thinks there is a problem even with touching the actual plastic case of the chip. I don't discharge static all over chips, mind you, I just think most precautions are waay overblown. Or have I just been lucky? Also, have chips gotten more static-sensitive, or less? Should I be more careful with a 64 MB DIMM or a 16K chip (cost aside)? >>Same here but some of the kids may never have heard of a propane torch! I'm insulted... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

7
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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

You know Bruce, it's offensive unthinking tirades like yours that make me want to unsubscribe from this list and throw my classic computers in the dumpster just so I would no longer have to count myself among your company. Please give me an insight as to _your_ life's work so that I may call it a steaming pile of horseshit as well. Kai > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce Lane [SMTP:kyrrin@jps.net] > Sent: Sunday, March 15, 1998 8:36 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again.... > > First, Tim Shoppa noted... > > >contains a plaintext version of the message AND the HTML-ified version, > >which is what your plaintext email reader is seeing while Eudora and > >Netscape can pick out the plaintext version. > > Then Kip Crosby added... > > >That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML > >part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between > the > >two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important > >fraction of the traffic. > > <grrrrrr!> > > The more I hear about Billy-boy, and the more I see of his company's > "products" and arrogant attitudes, the less I like either one! Is there no > amount of bandwidth waste or code-bloat that Micro$quat won't stoop to?! > > I knew there was a reason I'd started to get into Unix boxes. > Thanks, guys! > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) > (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) > "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our > own > human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

1
0
0 0

Robots again

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

On this subject, I'm interested in where CYC fits in. Hasn't the cyc "baby" been running for a number of years? I really should look this up myself, shouldn't I? I will. Cheers A >So, the connectionists tried to create machines and structures modeled >after the brain, but they didn't get too far. Let's say that you build >an OS and a programming language that allows you to accurately model a >brain. If you stick a human brain in front of a newspaper, you get >nothing. So add some input devices and actuators. Now you stick a baby >in front of a newspaper -- still nothing. So let the baby run for a >while, experience a variety of sensations, make a whole bunch of >associations, stick it in front of many newpapers and many non-newspapers >for many years, and finally you get a pretty good character recognizer.

28 years, 3 months

1
0
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Robots again

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

At 01:31 AM 3/16/98 -0800, you wrote: > >I just finished watching that Discovery program on Robots and was >wondering if anyone involved in the list has previously/is currently >working in that field > >Also, does anyone know how much of an influence the use of computer >systems by all of those AI reasearches in the late 70's/early 80's had on >system designs? I'd be interested to hear any opinions/anecdotes/etc on >this stuff. > > > >Aaron I just caught the end of that special. I didn't realize that interest in AI had expired. Come to think of it, whatever happened to Prolog? I had always planned to pick up Borland's Prolog and learn it, but I guess it's too late for that now. Was there just no demand for AI, or has the market just taken the useful aspects and abandoned the remainder? Isn't the Neural Net technology being used in various pattern recognition applications (i.e. OCR) descended from the AI research of the the 70's and 80's? -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats.

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> wrote: >I know some folks who work at Microsoft and everything they send me from their >"work" address is a several-hundred-line MS-Word document that is, of >course, MIME-encoded. Typically I can decode it and dump the file to >find the single line of real text that they thought they were sending me. For those few of us who might also check their Word documents in binary, you'll find that Word also stores quite a bit of its undo buffers in the saved document. Yes, no kidding. I've received letters and contracts from people who didn't realize this. By studying the binary, you can see their last few revisions. :-) People often create a "new" letter by revising an old document. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>

28 years, 3 months

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Trade list

by mor＠crl.com

I need to unload a lot of things that are taking up way too much room. In many cases I'm willing to part with large quantities of my items in exchange for just a single little thing I might need: Available --------- 1 - Complete working systems and lots of accessories and software for: Apple II (no systems, just boards, drives, s/w) Atari 8 bits Atari 520ST/1040ST (including monitors) Commodore Vic-20, 64, 128 (including monitors) TI-99/4A Tandy TRS-80 CoCo II and III (Just let me know of anything specific you are looking for) 2 - Commodore SX-64. Missing the carry handle, the keyboard cable (should be easy to make, I'll pinout the one I have), and the sound is not working. Picture is good though and other than sound it works fine. 3 - Fairly dirty little Tandy MC-10. Has a substitute 6VDC adapter and works fine. 4 - Several external SCSI HD (20, 65, 80 Mb models) and SCSI Syquest-44 compatible drive (PLI Infinity). These are all tested and work fine with my Macs. 5 - Lots of older MPU, MCU, Peripheral, RAM, EPROM chips--some NOS, some pulls--just inquire. 6 - Some non-classiccmp stuff but closely related: Classic Video game systems and carts (2600, 5200, Colco, Intv, etc.) Compaq DeskPro 4/33 w/DX4-100 CPU upgrd, 12Mb RAM, 1Gb HD (have 3) Compaq ProSignia server 486-66 Wanted ------ 1 - Disk Drives w/cables for CBM PET 2 - Modem and cassette cables, ROM upgrades, expansion items for Tandy 100/102 3 - CP/M cart for C64/128 4 - SpartaDos cart for Atari 8 bit 5 - Keyboard w/cable and DOS for HP 150A 6 - RGB DB-25 cable for Sony SMC-70 7 - Intel 8224 and 8228 peripheral chips 8 - Good battery packs for TI calcs: SR-50, SR-52, and TI-58C 9 - Systems: RCA Cosmac, AdventureVision game console, Exidy Sorcerer, Magnavox Odyssey, Vector Graphics (anything but MZ), P.T. SOL-20... er Apple 1, III, Lisa... I'll consider just about any condition item from the last section above, and would also consider most any working system or good drives, boards, terminals, etc. from pre-1980, that I don't already have. Just let me know what you've got... BTW, I'm in California, about 20 minutes north of SF. -- mor(a)crl.com http://www.crl.com/~mor/tps/

28 years, 3 months

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classiccmp FAQ/web page

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Actually, I got my own copy of the "NAQ" when I subscribed; I don't need another. I was just pointing out to Sam that the official classiccmp web page has been out of reach for quite a long time now, so there is no point in referring people to it. So, once again, I'd like to urge everyone to participate in building a classiccmp distributed web page. Take a look at this URL, http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/dwp.html and then go add those meta-tags to your pages. Okay, now I'll stop pushing this once and for all. Cheers, Bill. ] From dastar(a)wco.com Sun Mar 15 10:33:26 1998 ] ] On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: ] > As near as I can tell, the classiccmp web site has been down for ] > months now. I've tried probably fifty times since I-don't-know-when, ] > but haven't got it to come up. Do you have the inside scoop on that? ] > Without that, referring people to the FAQ isn't going to help much. ] ] Oh, sorry. That does tend to be a big problem. And yes, that web site ] has been flaky as hell for months now. I believe there is a mirror site ] somewhere that carries the FAQ. ] ] Can someone help Bill out? Anyone have a copy of the FAQ lying around? ] ] Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ] Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ] ] Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 ] See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 15, 19:46, Thorhallur Ragnarsson wrote: > Subject: Re: Getting bent (ON topic if not thread) > > [ plain text > Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] : Hooray! At 07:26 15.03.1998 PST, Max Eskin wrote: > > >Actually, I find most precautions such as anti-static and so forth to > >be baloney....... I've spent a lot of my working life repairing boards that have been blown up, so I can't agree. > No, unfortunately this can be a real problem, some years ago when working > as test engineer for DNG Electronics, we suddenly had skyrocketing failure > rates in assembly of equipment containing CMOS logic. Everybody involved > was grounded with a 1Mohm wrist strap so this was quite a mystery until we > noticed that when carrying the boards from the test bench to the final > assembly, the lead from the strap was too short and the carrier had to > disconnect it for the 6 feet trip across the floor, this zapped approx. 30% > of the boards. His shoes must have been something!! > > >...................... When I was upgrading RAM in the machines in > >my school's MacLab, the person in charge of it constantly looked over > >my shoulder and bleated, "Touch the case again, Max. I want to SEE you > >touch the case. OK, now gently, gently, now. Oooh! Yeesh! DON'T touch > >those chips!",etc.etc. I didn't damage anything, ...... > > Well, we have no way of knowing that. Static damage may just weaken the > chips so they fail later. That's quite a common effect. One of the big electronics companies published some figures on it a ten years or so ago. Often, it may alter a device's response to high frequencies as well. But I don't agree with those who say you must never touch a chip, or must hold it by the ends without touching the pins. If I have to carry an EPROM or similar without antistatic foam, I make a point of ensuring that all the pins are touching my finger, on the grounds that my slightly-conductive skin is keeping all the pins at the same potential. > Yes, I hope we are lucky. I do not normally wear an antistatic wrist strap, > I just try to wear cotton clothes, "touch the case" often and avoid rubbing > against all those synthetic surfaces (table, chair, carpet etc.). > When dealing with old equipment I try to be even more careful as it may be > more static sensitive and spares harder to find. I once (mid-80s) had several calls from a school that had refitted a computer room; machines kept crashing, usually at the start of a class. I only remember one permanent fault, but when I eventually asked the right question, it turned out they had a new carpet with a high nylon content. I suggested they spray the carpet with very dilute carpet cleaner in one of those mister bottles that plant lovers always seem to have, and to repeat that once a week or so. The problems went, and never came back. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 15, 8:33, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML? > [ snip ] but to me > the real standard is: > > Flat text should be sent as flat text. I couldn't agree more :-) > The number of MIME-encoded flat text documents I receive every day is > just plain silly. And with this. That's why I don't even bother to read a lot of that stuff, unless the Subject: line and/or From: makes me think I need to. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 15, 10:09, Dan Stephans II wrote: > Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML? > Umm, HTML is pretty much a standard no matter what platform you are on as it > is most certainly not platform dependent. The standard for 1.1 is specified > in RFC 2068 and for 1.0 in RFC 1945. Sure, but that's not really the issue. In any case, M$ blatantly ignore those standards. > If you mean that there are not standard > tools to read html'ized mail under unix/linux, I say Netscape is available > for almost any linux and most other unices running on sparc/intel/alpha > hardware. HTML is a markup language designed for web pages. Netscape is primarily designed for web pages, not mail. It is a very inefficient tool for mail. And what if you're not running X Windows? I completely agree with Allison and others, that HTML has no place in textual mail. It is completely unneccessary, and wastes both bandwidth and time. I suspect you agree, at least in part, with that. > I don't argue that HTML rich text is fine for mailing lists, > however if you are going to argue that it is not you should formulate a > proper argument. > > Cheers, > > Dan > > Allison J Parent wrote: > > > <Text. If the e-mail that you wish to respond to's in plain text, that's > > <what it'll send. The problem is that if M$ supports it, the WHOLE WORLD > > <suddenly has to all have HTML-ized e-mail readers. It's nice if you hav > > <it, but a pain in the A** if you don't. > > > > There is the little matter of some several million (or more) unix(linux, > > and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a standard. > > For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special > > utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth. > > > > Allison -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Aaah, I see! When it comes to system stability, you Linux geeks come >from all over saying how you can DEVELOP patches, but when we have some software that you don't, where is that trusty gcc? huh? huh? But seriously, is it so hard to patch Linux mail for HTML? >There is the little matter of some several million (or more) unix(linux, >and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is far from a standard. >For me and many of the hybrid users HTML means slow, slower and special >utilities to handle it and for what? What a waste of bandwidth. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

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Update on Sun3 and shoebox

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Well, I was finally able to make two QIC tapes (boot and install) using NetBSD for x86. The tape drive ran fine, with no errors. So then I hooked the shoebox up to the 3/50 that I have, and using the monitor, issued "b st(0,6,0)" to boot from the tape. The 3/50 seems to access the drive (I can see the heads move), but either aborts with a "Device Not Found" error, or the following: scsi getbyte failed invalid status message = FFFFFFFF st: sense key = 6 error = 29 I'm not able to get any further than this. Any thoughts?? Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================

28 years, 3 months

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E-mail bloat

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

[Viewing an attached word file on an HP-UX] a)Most people working on PCs with Word have no idea what an HP-UX is b)Most such people have no idea that there is a machine on the planet not running word c)Most such people don't even realize that they are running word or attaching a word format file to email It is a byproduct of things being easy to use. Same reason as many americans have no idea where England is. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I mean it's "software for the the masses," everything's a black box. If t <Win 95 registry gets hosed, re-install the whole OS (I've yet to remedy It's why win3.1 is the windowing system on my dosbox. It's stable enough for me and my standard is VAX/VMS (24x7x365 and it's no joke!). But I had to work to get it that way. <damaged registry by restoring a backup), then all your apps (10 or 15 in <case); it's a full 10 hour project for me, even with Win95 and most apps <CD, and any install diskettes loaded on a single Zip disk. Windows(3.x, 95, ???) is the only OS that ever needed to reload to fix! VMS files that are that critical can be protected to the stars if need be. <Linux/Unix OTOH, if it's screwed up, just figure out which script to fix While I'm not excited about linux yet, I've never seen it eat itself either. <I think if there were only one target to go after, Gates would have the <"owners" of Linux in his board room tomorrow, trying to pressure them int <selling out so he could eliminate the threat. I wonder if he's tried to <romance Linus yet? Wouldn't do him much as the OS is PD and even if successivve versions weren't it would be hard to lock that market. <>But AFAIK, Gates's BASIC <>interpreter for the altair required a RAM add-on pack! Truly bloatware <>from day one. Why Gates decided to flip the switches on the front <>panel several thousand extra times mystifies me. Maybe that's why <>you're all getting Altairs with worn out switches;) HUH? What? The altairs needed 4k of ram to run 4k basic and 8k to run 8kbasic. Basic8k for altair was only about 6100 bytes. THere were smaller basics but all of them gave up something, like floating point or strings. As to the switch flipping, that was due to the crummy MITS 88ACR that would often require several tries to get a clean load. After it BASIC loaded the switches were an artifact though to could input data via port FFh under program control. To beat the need to pound switches I put a small 64byte bootrom on a board and copied the loaded image to phase encoded digital tape(home brew) to get from the slow error prone 300baud to a zippy and I may add very reliable 4800. Don't blame the cow for soggy cereal. I would say that 8kbasic was the first decent software product from MS though it was soon to change in the early 80s. FYI the Extended BASIC interpreter for CP/M-80 and the BASCOM Compiler for CP/M-80 were excellent products. Neither were bloatware by any standard. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by cgregory＠lrbcg.com

I don't want to be the skunk at the lawn party here, but it should be pointed out that e-mail is fast becoming the communication medium of choice for both business and pleasure. I suppose you could argue that there is no need for a company to have a fancy letterhead, nor a mass mailer to have colored brochures, nor ladies to have flowered and/or scented stationery, yet we do have all these things, and more. Consider how boring text-only, fixed-font mail would be. Or did Henry Ford have it right when he proclaimed that all we really "needed" was black automobiles? Yes, I understand the argument that in the case of snail mail, the sender pays for all the frills, but in the case of e-mail, the recipient more than likely pays with longer download times, disk clutter, etc. A very valid and not trivial point. Nevertheless, technology marches on, and as cable modems (or whatever) become the norm rather than the exception, "waste" of bandwidth and its associated costs will cease to an issue with the computing public at large. If my wife wants to embed scanned newspaper clippings or a kid's picture in an email to her cousin across country, who am I (or anyone) to object? I don't disagree with much that has been said here on the subject. I don't use HTML formatted e-mail, and don't especially like receiving it, nonetheless I accept that sooner or later it will become the norm (I don't like the term "standard") rather than the exception. Formatted email may never be, nor probably should be, appropriate on a classic computer mailing list; yet, who knows, in ten years or so the definition of "classic computer" may change as well. Cliff Gregory cgregory(a)lrbcg.com -----Original Message----- From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> To: Cgregory <Cgregory> Date: Sunday, March 15, 1998 3:14 PM Subject: Re: What's with the raw HTML? > >You missed the point. There is no argument. As far as I'm concerned, >there's absolutely no point to sending e-mail as HTML. > >Allison said it best though... > >> What a waste of bandwidth. > >And how. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 > See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! > >

28 years, 3 months

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IIGS

by francois.auradon＠worldnet.att.net

>> Also it was connected to an Apple IIe via a super serial port on the GS and >> an I/O controller on the IIe side. Is that some sort of "Networking"? There >> was no disk drive attached to the IIe. > >Either someone's idea of a joke or thrift shop ignorance. Well actaully the guy pointed to the IIe when I asked about the keyboard. They probably thought the the IIe WAS the keyboard! BTW what kind of problems can I expect with the ROM 01 (wich is the one I have)? ------------------------------------------------------------- Francois Visit the Sanctuary at: http://home.att.net/~francois.auradon

28 years, 3 months

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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<And in my experience, IC's are not that easy to damage by overheating. <I've soldered and desoldered hundreds of chips and never once overheated <one. Yes I do use a temperature controlled iron, etc. FYI in the old days when people would salvage chips of old unmarked cards a popular way to remove them was a propane torch and pliers! Obviously the board would get toasted but you could get the chips off fairly clean and fast. Though once I seriously over did it on the heat. The result is a old 7400 that is bent some in the middle...it still worked! I also made copper heads with the right shape for round, 16pin and even 40pin footprints that I would use a ungar element to heat and desolder chips cleanly from the board. I've also lifted chips by passing the board through the wave solder machine that put them down to start with. No majik, just carefull application of heat. The trick is heating all of the pins or finding a way that doesn't require all of them to be heated at once. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Hitachi 2.8" (was Re: Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...)

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I have some disks from an unreleased drive for the Radofin Aquarius II computer - but, unfortunately, I have no drive. "Hitachi 2.8 inch drive" is mentioned in the leaflet I have - can anyone shed any light on this drive, and the possibility of obtaining something which might read the disks? You can see the disks and drive @ http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/aquarius/aqdisk.jpg http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/weird/aquarius/floppy.jpg A

28 years, 3 months

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HD jumper settings

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: Does anyone have the jumper settings for a Maxtor XT4380S hard drive? This thing is part of a Sun-clone "shoebox." The Maxtor Web site only has information on the drive's geometry and not the jumpers. I can't seem to get the SCSI address to show anything other than 4. TIA! Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> (remove nospam_ to use) ClubWin! Charter Member (6) MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking ============================================

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by adavie＠mad.scientist.com

I'd like to see less Microsoft bashing in my inbox; I'm on this list for the discussion of classic computers, NOT the benefits of Linux vs Windows, NOR the arguments about HTML. If the FAQ/guidelines for the mailing list say NO HTML, thats all there need be said... "read the FAQ". Please, lets cut down the traffic on these subjects and get back to the things we all enjoy discussing!!! A

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by kyrrin＠jps.net

First, Tim Shoppa noted... >contains a plaintext version of the message AND the HTML-ified version, >which is what your plaintext email reader is seeing while Eudora and >Netscape can pick out the plaintext version. Then Kip Crosby added... >That's it. MIME-enabled clients read the MIME part; MSIE4 reads the HTML >part; MS-Outlook and Outlook Express I _think_ offer the choice between the >two. Microsoft no longer considers flat-ASCII mail to be an important >fraction of the traffic. <grrrrrr!> The more I hear about Billy-boy, and the more I see of his company's "products" and arrogant attitudes, the less I like either one! Is there no amount of bandwidth waste or code-bloat that Micro$quat won't stoop to?! I knew there was a reason I'd started to get into Unix boxes. Thanks, guys! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> What HTML utility works on my pro350 under venix. <> < <Lynx? Venix does not have IP suite only uucp. A version is not installed nor have I found one. It would however have to fit on the 10mb disk. <> Same question for my PDP-11s running RT-11? <> Or my ISP shell account (choice of ELM, PINE or MAIL)? < <Lynx? (which of course can be set up as a viewer for text/html mime types <pine) Keep in mind that the access in that mode is terminal(not a PC) so graphics is out. <> Then there is the matter of my laptop (EPSON PX-8 running CP/M-80)? < <You do a lot of mail reading from this machine then? I can list a bunch <machines that don't have any tools or utilities that handle HTML too, but <don't use them for reading mail. I do if I need portability (on the road). I have a scripted modem tool that interacts with ISPs shell and mail to download mail and send mail. storage is critical (120k ramdisk!) so bloat is problematic. <> How about my VS2000 tunning ultrix-4.2 off a 71meg disk? <> Then there is the matter of my vaxen running VMS-5.5? < <Pine/lynx again.I think one of your problems is that you obviously read y <mail on far too many different machines. :) How do you keep track of whe <things are? Your avoiding the question. If I were limited any of those I'd need tools specific to them. As there are many people that do not or cannot afford the latest and greatest it's not a moot point. In reality my 486dx2/50 with 8meg of ram is the primary mailreader. However I'm not about to drag up eudora or nyetscrape to read mail as it's too slow for simple plain text. Of course if you sincerely believe that using a 486 is stupid I'll gladly accept a P100 donation. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Arrrgh! Micro$h*t again....

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sorry for any whitespace, folks... When was this interview taken? >advocated "Top 40" bloatware from day one. No one should be surprised--I >mean, Microshaft has always intended it's products to be "toasterware," as >easy as plugging toast into a toaster--that is, if you want to write a >letter to Aunt Minny or play Solitaire from 9am to 5pm every day. I don't quite see what you mean.. I have concluded a while ago that he isn't quite sane. I mean, in "Triumph of the Nerds", they said he gets up every day afraid of being taken over... >rethink his crapware strategy. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there >is a dark corner in a sub-basement somewhere in Redmond where a small team >of hackers are already working on a potential Microsoft Linux distribution, >just in case. I'm taking bets on Netscape doing the same thing--a complete I'll bet Win95 is compiled on Linux! But AFAIK, Gates's BASIC interpreter for the altair required a RAM add-on pack! Truly bloatware >from day one. Why Gates decided to flip the switches on the front panel several thousand extra times mystifies me. Maybe that's why you're all getting Altairs with worn out switches;) >-- >David Wollmann | >dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. >DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for >IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

28 years, 3 months

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Robots

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

Just in case someone has missed their advertising blitz, the Discovery Channel is showing a special called Robots Rising tonight at 9pm ET. From the little preview on the Discovery web site (what I can see of it with lynx) it looks like there should be a lot of shots of classic machines in action.... Aaron

28 years, 3 months

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Where's the FAQ?

by dastar＠wco.com

Sorry, I don't keep e-mail addresses handy. > Sorry , I missed the previous parts to this thread , but I do have a > copy of the 3-part FAQ. Where should I forward it ? Could the one who was asking please e-mail Larry Walker at: lwalkerN0spaM(a)interlog.com ...removing the anti-spam features of his e-mail address of course. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<But seriously, is it so hard to patch Linux mail for HTML? <>There is the little matter of some several million (or more) <>unix(linux, and related cuzins) systems out there where HTML is <>far from a standard. First off Standard in this case refers to established and present on every system. My reference to cusins referes to the non-public source unixes like Venix and also the non-unix, non-DOS, non-NT OSs that exist. Since I'll never run nyetscrape on the z80, 8088 or PDP-11. Sure it's possible (trivial) to write your own handler to strip the excess baggage, but I personally feel its rude to impose it on the reader. ALlison

28 years, 3 months

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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That said, it is certainly very possible to damage individual chips and/o <subassemblies with static electricity, and precautions such as anti-stati <bags, tubes, and workplaces make perfect economic sense to the <manufacturers, distributors, and professional installers of this <equipment. In other words, not the entire industry is a scam - they're <quite satisfied that ordinary affordable measures and work practices <are important. The basic wrist strap safety ground is usually adaquate. More often some basic care is all that is needed to insure nothing bad happens. However, The last day or so in eastern MA, I've been able to draw sparks over 0.25" with ease and there is no question that can be damaging. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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What's with the raw HTML?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Umm, HTML is pretty much a standard no matter what platform you are on <> is most certainly not platform dependent. The standard for 1.1 is spec <> in RFC 2068 and for 1.0 in RFC 1945. If you mean that there are not st <> tools to read html'ized mail under unix/linux, I say Netscape is availa <> for almost any linux and most other unices running on sparc/intel/alph <> hardware. I don't argue that HTML rich text is fine for mailing lists <> however if you are going to argue that it is not you should formulate <> proper argument. OK, What HTML utility works on my pro350 under venix. Same question for my PDP-11s running RT-11? Or my ISP shell account (choice of ELM, PINE or MAIL)? Then there is the matter of my laptop (EPSON PX-8 running CP/M-80)? How about my VS2000 tunning ultrix-4.2 off a 71meg disk? Then there is the matter of my vaxen running VMS-5.5? The assumption of HTML standard, is modern CPU, lot's of ram, fast modem big disk and bandwidth to waste when the message doesn't warrent any of the above. This is particulary true when in some cases the message is repeated twice in clear text and HTML. Myself I find ti analogous of a ham firing up a full kilowatt to talk to the guy across the street, excessive and burdening to others. Both RFCs are not retro specification and do not make HTML required. They do make clear what HTML is and hwo to deal with it. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Actually, I find most precautions such as anti-static and so forth to <be baloney. I must have done every illegal thing in the book, and the <only things I haven't gotten away with was plugging chips in Well it's really pay me now or later. While at DEC we (participated) did and ESD study and we found even TTL was susceptable. It accounted for a very significant number of boards that shipped good and failed on install or very shortly afterwards. ESD can damage devices without immediately failing them. It contributed to many burned in and tested at the facory only to fail in the field boards and made for a high incidence of failures in chips associted with interconnects (edge connectors and plugs/sockets). When a program of ESD grounding was instituted the failures drom 20% over a year and would continue to drop for several years and habits were broken. The problem is difference in charge so try to maintain contact to keep the static charges equalized/dissipated especially on the cold dry days were have up north here. Also handling edge connectors is long term not good. Oils and salts from the hands are not good even for gold plated connectors. Allison

28 years, 3 months

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Aiwa CD players

by kyrrin＠jps.net

First, Uncle Roger declared... >I have [music] CD's going back to the mid-80's. They all work fine. >(P.S., never buy an Aiwa CD player.) Max responded with... >Why do you say this? I found an AIWA all-in-one thing (radio,tape, >phono,cd) in the trash a few years ago, and it has worked fine. Does >it damage CDs or something? I think I know what Roger may be referring to, Max. About a year and something ago, I bought my mate an Aiwa 3-disc CD player/changer that also sported a SCSI port for the benefit of using data CDs. The thing was new, still in the box. After about a month, it died. I sent it off to Aiwa, they repaired it under warranty. It came back, lasted for about another year, then the mechanicals in the transport died. Permanently. Needless to say, I'm not impressed with Aiwa's later stuff (after 1993 or so). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 3 months

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I have located Heaven... and it's inside ATS.

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

I am right now sitting in a room containing a few interesting parts... There's an 11/70 here, and 11/44, and 11/83. And that's not all. Lining the back wall are VAX 7650, 8530, 11/785... There's other DEC stuff around... There's apparently a RSX/11M distrib RL02 pack around, but it's been lost in a sea of XXDP+ packs... Numbersome MicroVAXen... I am talking to you right now from the 785! Truly impressive! The room also holds an AlphaServer 7100, and a lot of Windoze boxen. This is ATS's lab, where they test things! Already scored a lot of manuals, PDP-11, VAX, and PDP-8 stuff. Maybe I can talk them out of this 785, or maybe a DELUA or something... :) See ya later, I'm gonna see what else I can find! PS: NONE of this is trash! They actually USE all this stuff to test equipment! -------

28 years, 3 months

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Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...

by dastar＠wco.com

On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Bill Yakowenko wrote: > As near as I can tell, the classiccmp web site has been down for > months now. I've tried probably fifty times since I-don't-know-when, > but haven't got it to come up. Do you have the inside scoop on that? > Without that, referring people to the FAQ isn't going to help much. Oh, sorry. That does tend to be a big problem. And yes, that web site has been flaky as hell for months now. I believe there is a mirror site somewhere that carries the FAQ. Can someone help Bill out? Anyone have a copy of the FAQ lying around? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!

28 years, 3 months

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What sort of Model 4 CPU board is this?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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28 years, 3 months

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TRS80 Model 4P gate array help

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Mar 13, 16:54, Keith Whitehead wrote: > Ok...here's the problem > The machine come up with garbage on the screen.It would also seem that the > video is inverted, I can see the retrace lines etc, so the horizontal > blanking is not working either by the looks of it. > > What I suspect is wrong is that either U42 (the 6845 labeled in my machine > as a motorola SC80757P) or U102 (the 4.3 video support chip) is faulty (or > both?). The 6845 isn't much more than a programmable video timing generator. Since you have *some* video, it's unlikely to be at fault. It could be a memory-addressing problem, or a bad connection, or... My first suggestion would be to *gently* prise each socketed chip from it's socket, and reseat them all. This helps clean any oxidation off the pins at the point of contact. Used to be a favourite problem with Apple ]['s, but it's a widely-applicable technique. I don't wish to teach my granny to suck eggs, but I'd also suggest you take care that *all* the pins go back in the socket when you reseat anything; it's not hard to bend a pin underneath sometimes. For many years I was a component-level repair technician for an education authority, and I once had someone bring me a malfunctioning machine which had that problem. When I pointed it out, the response was "but NEARLY all the pins are in, and it doesn't work AT ALL". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

28 years, 3 months

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Getting bent (ON topic if not thread)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-03-13 21:22:35 EST, you write: << <And in my experience, IC's are not that easy to damage by overheating. <I've soldered and desoldered hundreds of chips and never once overheated <one. Yes I do use a temperature controlled iron, etc. >> with all this talk of soldering and desoldering, is it possible for a layman to do this with just a regular low wattage soldering iron? any tips from the pros? david

28 years, 3 months

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7474 Chip Replacement QUESTIONS

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] From: Wirehead Prime <wirehead(a)retrocomputing.com> ] ] In repairing the SWTPC 6800 MP-A CPU board, I've discovered I THINK that ] a 7474 which is used to generate NOT HALT to the CPU (and to halt it ] under certain circumstances) is keeping the CPU halted all the time even ] though the bus says there's no reason for it to be halted. ] ...deletia ] ] Thanks... ] ] Anthony Clifton - Wirehead > From: "Jack Peacock" <peacock(a)simconv.com> > > considering the low speed of a 6800, an LS (or even an HCT) > should work...but, are you sure it isn't the case of a fast > pulse on the D input when CLK is hit (on the falling edge if > memory is correct)? and you aren't seeing it (using a logic > probe or a triggered scope)? did you check the voltage in to D? > maybe it's in no mans land (i.e. around 2v). Maybe its the IC > driving the flip flop D input thats bad, or a fast pulse is > hitting the R* input > > Anyway, I'd take it out and put in a socket if you think its > most likely cause > Jack Peacock Do you have anything funky plugged into that box? Later SWTPC systems had disk controllers doing DMA, but I'm not sure about the 6800. Does it lock up all the time? If so, can you yank everything except the MP-A and an MP-C or MP-S in port 1, and see if it still happens? In that case, there should be nothing wanting to do DMA, so the HALT* line should be permanently high - no possibility of sneaky fast pulses on the HALT line that you might overlook. Then everything is simple: If HALT* is still high on the SS-50 and low on the output of that 7474, then that 7474 is definitely ill. If the problem goes away when you do this, then maybe the 7474 is okay and maybe you've got some board doing spurious HALTs. OTOH, to keep the CPU halted, you'd have to be getting one of those sneaky pulses on the HALT line in every clock cycle; just one here and there wouldn't keep the CPU totally halted. Just on that basis alone, I'd say it's almost certain that the 7474's flip-flopping days are over. As for 7474 vs. 74LS74, since the output of this is only driving the one CPU input, I expect it should be okay. I think the main concern would be whether or not the replacement chip can drive as many inputs as the chip it is replacing, and an LS output can certainly drive one standard input. (Experts are welcome to correct me here!) Cheers, Bill.

28 years, 3 months

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Preserving old floppies, fixed disks...

by lfb107＠psu.edu

At 06:53 PM 3/14/98 -0800, Sam Ismail wrote: >On Sat, 14 Mar 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >[In response to Uncle Roger's spontaneous anti-AIWA quip...] > >> Why do you say this? I found an AIWA all-in-one thing (radio,tape, >> phono,cd) in the trash a few years ago, and it has worked fine. Does >> it damage CDs or something? >> > >> >I have [music] CD's going back to the mid-80's. They all work fine. >> >(P.S., never buy an Aiwa CD player.) > >This is an example of the kind of message that should go to private >e-mail. Thanks. > >Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So is this. No, Thank YOU Les

28 years, 3 months

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