- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i've never had a problem cracking macs. needless to say, dont even try to use a screwdriver to seperate it at the seam; you'll only ruin the plastic! the first way is to remove all the screws and lay the mac with the tube down in your lap. put your hands around thebottom corners of the mac, and then use your thumbs to push against the DB connectors back there. since you're actually then pushing against the system board inside, that usually does it. if that doesnt work, on to step 2. for step 2, thread the top two screws in, but only a few turns. DO NOT tighten them down! use your torx bit tool or whatever, and then push or lightly hammer on your tool. by doing this, you're acutally applying pressure through the loosened screws to the front half of the mac. that usually pops it loose. you can apply the same technique to the bottom screws also. i've done this to all compact macs except for the classic and cc models since i dont own one. hope i explained it clearly. david In a message dated 98-06-27 21:57:49 EDT, john higganbotham put forth: << Also, seems that every compact mac I have messed with has already had the case popped (according to the marks). What do I do if I come across a virgin that's never been popped so to speak? Is it harder to get the case off? >>

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<ObCC-Q: What was the first microprocessor-based box to run Unix? < <ObCC-A: The Z8000-based Onyx C8002 in 1980. I think that missed the unix V5 or V6 varients that ran on DEC LSI-11 and 11/23(later on). Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: > Well, the DMV seems to have solved this problem -- I can never get my > license plate stickers off, even after 10+ years :-) Ha! I got an 8-year stack off mine late last year. Not because the adhesive let go though, the reflective paint on the plate did! But while I don't mind sticking that stuff on my license plates (after all, they're DMV property), I don't think I'd want to use it directly on artifacts! On storage bins/boxes, bags, and tags would be OK though. > And there's always good card stock tags and steel wire. Good choice, though I've been using the ones with string (vs. wire) to tag printed-circuit boards and some other things that look susceptible. > For the most part, I'm getting by > now with cardboard boxes and magic markers, but that renders my barcode > scanners useless, and it means that I usually stop short of writing the > entire contents on the box (due to laziness). Y'know, I've thought about barcode tagging a little bit, and I'm not sure how it would help, besides saving me from keying an object's item number to find the database record for this thing which I must be able to at least see, after all I can scan its barcode tag, right? > > OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this > [...] > > Looks good. I'll probably steal this, if you don't mind. No problem. If you have ideas for improvement feel free to share. Right now I'm thinking about whether the "notes" field should be split out into several note/memo fields for notes about relationships with other items, condition, work needing to be done, and other miscellany. That I lumped all this together in one note was part lack of knowledge about how I was going to use the note field in practice, and part architectural limitation of the in-ROM database software on the 100LX/200LX (which won't let you have more than one note field per record). > I'm a portable, wireless, and web zealot. I'll probably run the database > on one of my home Linuxboxen, which I can talk to via various > wireless-networked portables. (I have to admit that most of the wireless > portables are non-classic, but one of them is an early NEC CP/M portable > with a late 80's AirShare device.) This would free you from the memory > constraints of your HP200LX. (Did I mention that I have some PCMCIA > wireless LAN cards available for sale or trade?) Memory constraints? Don't be fooled by that "2MB RAM" logo above the screen, this 200LX has a 32MB RAMdisk daughterboard from Times2Tech. It's like having a turbo PC/XT in the palm of my hand. I'll give you points for using k00l technology to solve your problem, but I don't think it'd work for me. Most of my collection is not stored where I live, and between the storage locations, home, work, and some of the places I go in pursuit of Stuff, I think it'd be hard to pull off a "wireless LAN". They just aren't that local, nor are they line-of-sight in any way, nor are they all inside coverage areas excepting maybe cellphone coverage. Not that I care much -- my solution is aimed at answering my decaying-neuron questions, namely "have I got any of these?", "where are they?", and "are they so screwed up that I should be looking for another example?" As it happens it also will work pretty well for answering "what's in this box?" because I've got the box's ID in the location field, so can pull up all the records with a given box ID to get my answer. Well, it'd work that way if I actually had the inventory *done*. That's the other part of the problem, I think I'm less than 1/5 there, and what is done is in several pieces that correspond to various points in the evolution of this thing. The further I go, the more I learn. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

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FS: OLD calculators, computers, telephones, & software.

by kstumpf＠unusual.on.ca

I'm trying to practice what I preach. I've written a book called A Guide To Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Practice, and Technique. In it I recommend you should define and refine your collection to help maximize the pleasure you can obtain from it. Well I've decided to stick with my first love - mainframes with big control panels - and sell the rest. Sample of what you'll find in this message: o Millionaire calculators o Xerox Star o MOS Technologies KIM-1 o Convergent Technologies Workslate o Northern Telecom DV-1 telephone terminal o IBM PC LAN software. PLEASE SEND YOUR OFFERS AND QUESTIONS DIRECTLY TO ME - NOT THROUGH THE LIST OR NEWSGROUP. P.S. I thought the Classiccomp list would like to see the calculators and telephones built into terminals also. I have the following items for sale: CALCULATORS ----------------------- Burroughs huge, black, hand crank, wide platten, 9x9 keyboard, window between front edge and keyboard, extra ribbon, Made in Canada seems to work and in good condition Egli, Hans, of Zurich Millionaires - one 16 digit (#1776) and one 20 digit (#2607) good condition Facit CI 13 working and in very good condition Friden STW Automatic Calculator with plastic cover no power cord, but in very good condition Monroe 145, made in Western Germany good condition National model 750207, 67-HX-5" huge, brown, hand crank not working, but in very good condition Remington Rand black, hand crank, wide platten not working, but in good condition HP HP-25 in original box and carrying case owner's manual, applications programs manual, quick reference guide, and ac adapter not working, but in very good condition Olympia CD 71 in carrying case with instruction booklet, ac adapter without plug to the calculator very good condition TI TI 30 with carrying case very good condition TI TI Programmable 59 Solid State Software lots of original keyboard templates, Master Library Modules, magnetic storage strips and read head cleaning strips, pocket case for templates, modules, and strips 9 calculators, but only 2 battery packs very good condition COMPUTERS --------------------- Apple III, 256K with monitor the following is all original manuals, diskettes, jackets, and boxes: o System Software, SOS, Utilities, and Emulation software and documentation. o Universal Parallel Interface and software driver, Visicalc sampler, Apple Writer III, Business BASIC, Business Graphics, System Demo, Maillist Manager, Letter Quality Printer Demo all in very good condition Apple Lisa 2 in original box only powered on twice original brochures and demos very good condition Convergent Tech Workslate original everything! working, in mint condition Data General One (2207) all original accessories and software: o carrying case, AC adapter, battery recharger, no name acoustic coupler cups, expansion adapter, DOS 2.11, Owner's Manual, Pocket Reference works in very good condition Dynalogic Hyperion 3032 - Agile OEM version (also Bytec) the following is all original: carrying case, Setup Guide, User Guide, Technical Ref Guide, Multiplan, In:Scribe, BASIC, In-Touch, Aladin working in very good condition Epson QX-10 (Q701A) no keyboard or monitor cables loaded with Valdocs software and user and developer documentation in good condition HP 150 Touch Screen PC w/9133D very good condition HP 150 Touch Screen PC w/9122D and HP-IB cable very good condition HP Portable Plus with original carrying case, AC adapter, Owner's manual IBM 5100 (C02), 5103 dot matrix printer original carrying case (weighs 60lb!) IBM 5100 binder containing: o original sales literature o original invoice o BASIC manual and 12 s/w or data tape cartridges works, but keyboard has problems very good condition IBM PCjr in large IBM attache case includes original AC adapter, TV Receiver VHF Terminal, Operating Instruction manual, and sampler diskette. MOS Technology KIM-1 original everything! in mint condition Modular Micros Zorba (Gemini GC-200) (div of Modcomp) works, very good condition North Star Horizon very good condition Xerox Star (8010) not working displays xxx msg very good condition Zenith ZFL-171-42 portable original carrying case and Owner's Manual, but copy of DOS 2 boot diskette. not working, in very good condition TELEPHONES ---------------------- AT&T very good condition Bynamics PhonePad original everything! not working, in mint condition IT&T InfoStation very good condition Northern Telecom Alex good condition Northern Telecom Displayphone missing AC adapter very good condition Northern Telecom DV-1 mint condition SOFTWARE ------------------- Aldus PageMaker 1.2 for Mac complete and original good condition Ann Arbor Softworks Full Paint complete and original good condition Apple MacDraw complete and original good condition IBM DOS 2.00 w/diskettes good condition IBM DOS 3.00 w/diskettes good condition IBM DOS 3.10 & 3.30 no diskettes poor condition IBM DOS 4.00 w/diskettes unused very good condition IBM OS/2 Warp Version 3 w/diskettes and CD unused very good condition IBM PC Local Area Network 1.10 complete and original good condition IBM PC Network Program 1.00 still shrink wrapped very good condition IBM PC Network Hardware Maintenance and Service complete and original good condition IBM PC 3270 Emulation 3.00 complete and original good condition IBM PC 3270 Emulation 2.00 original missing shelve good condition IBM PC/Host File Transfter and Terminal Emulator 1.10 complete and original good condition IBM BASIC manuals shrink wrapped very good condition IBM Pascal compiler complete and original good condition IBM Guide to Operations 2.02 complete and original good condition IBM Technical Reference PC very good condition IBM Proprinter maintenance manuals very good condition idd MacDraft 1.2 complete and original good condition Symantec Grandview complete and original good condition Vestronix Pro C complete and original good condition Trilogy complete and original good condition Xerox Ventura Publisher 2.0 complete and original... all 19, 360K diskettes! very good condition Zenith Z-100 PC Service Guide complete and original good condition Zenith Z-100 Disk-Based Diagnostics complete and original good condition ----------------------------------------------------------------- Kevin Stumpf kstumpf(a)unusual.on.ca +1.519.744.2900 (EST/EDT GMT-5)

27 years, 10 months

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Mayday! PDP-11/44 Power supply

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Hi, folks, My PDP-11/44 has a power supply problem. Symptom: A rapid flashing of the 'DC ON' light, indicating (according to the users' guide) that one or more DC voltages is not up to spec. The kicker is that I have nothing in the way of service manual or maintenance print set. I'm kind of puzzled about why the thing died. It's been functioning perfectly well at St. Martins College for years, 24/7, without so much as a burp. The only thing I can think of is that this continuous running had one or more components stretched to their limit, and when I powered it on after over a month of power off, it pushed it over the edge. Anyway... I have no way of knowing even where to probe to see which voltage died. Even if I did manage to find it, that fscking power supply's about as complex as the CPU! If anyone's got service docs for the '44, and can help me out with some copies, that would be just grand. I'd also be open to troubleshooting via phone or E-mail. If you've got spare parts, of course, that would be ideal. I could swap modules until the bad one's isolated. ;-) This is one I really want to get working. Please give me a hand if you can. Thanks in advance. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 27, 16:50, Hotze wrote: > Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) > processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Or Acorn/Digital StrongARM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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SE30s and IIX machines- Packet monitors and Home Automation

by thomas100＠home.com

I suppose SE30s and Mac IIs are 11 years old now! Yow. I still think of antique computers as 8-bit micros- that's just my own deluded sense of history. I bought an SE30 w/ Ethernet recently for $80 through the net. The owner showed up at my office one day recently and delivered it. The next week I also bought a Mac IIx w/ 8 megs of RAM for $25 at a Silicon Valley swap meet. A friend gave me a couple of Asante SCSI <-> Ethernet adapters which can normally be had for around $20 on eBay. I hadn't figured out much useful to do with these slower machines until... I found a very nice TCP/IP, etc packet monitor that runs on these machines. The "trial" version of this product (EtherPeek) is pretty hot in itself and is worth checking out. The full version is... unfortunately $700. I wish they'd sell the demo version with the 30-day time-bomb turned off for $100 as it's already more than what I need to monitor my cable-modem connection. Oddly... the Win32 version of EtherPeek is just so-so... I should add that in the case of SE30s, these things can sit on your desk, won't get knocked off like a laptop and are available for less than $100 with an ethernet card. This is an ideal niche machine for a packet monitor! http://www.aggroup.com - you have to download the app and then wait for the password to be e-mailed to you. ---- There was an article in the May issue of Popular Home Automation which piqued my interest in acquring these machines originally. It was entitled, "What I Did With The Mac in the Closet" and features a very vancy Macintosh/BSR controller system. This system can talk to wireless speakers in every room in the house. After taking the magazine home from the store where I found it, I realized this would be a social faux-pas in my house and decided to nix the idea. The software application that drives it is "XTension" by San Hill Engineering. It might still be fun to play with since the application is scriptable and can handle motion detectors and such. The application looks pretty nice. I wonder if the motion detectors would detect the squirrels I hear are supposed to gather from time to time in my detached garage. Hmm... The only other application I tho't of for the older Macs is as a dedicated Quick-cam machine. I must admit I use them for scanning in pictures occasionally - waiting for the images to be converted to JPEG is a hassle tho'. Thomas

27 years, 10 months

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Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 27, 9:56, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I think some drives, includeing the RZ23 have a jumper setting to spin them > up, and some PC controllers might do this for you. Some of the RZ series do have a spin-up on power-up jumper, but the RZ23 isn't one of them :-( However, as someone else (Tim?) pointed out, most workstation controllers or OSs (as opposed to PC controllers/OSs) will take care of that. I have RZs on Acorn and SGI machines, but not, oddly, on any of my DEC ones. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>> Bob was just a dumb program. > >Bob was touted by Microsoft as the way user interfaces would work from >that point on. It was seen as a way to bring computers to mere consumers, >and launched at CES with great fanfare IIRC. What exactly is Bob? I've often see it mentioned, but never with any background to what it actually does. Thanks, Tom Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROMs

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 27, 14:41, Hotze wrote: > Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got the > control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well as > other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which > contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as you > wanted it. > I've also heard of a "Windows 98 on a chip" system, with 75MBPS through > put. Sounds like the first decent way to load Windows... Well, you typically need 4 chips, since most ROMs are 8-bit wide, and most current processors are 32-bit, but allowing a little poetic licence, Windows on a chip is possible (and Windows CE is just that). > PS-Did any computers have GUI's built in? I think that I recall that > a Tandy did, but nothing else... Amiga? Archimedes/RISC PC? Atari ST/MegaST? all those have the GUI in ROM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Wang Thang

by blindpete＠stratos.net

On 1998-06-27 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu said: cl{On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Don Maslin wrote: cl{> Cannot help on the pinouts, but I think their monitor connector cl{>was unique. You need to boot it with Wang disks. They are in PC cl{>format, but the DOS is different. I have a set that I can copy cl{>when you get video going. cl{Great! I'll get various Kaypro stuff from you at the same time. ;) cl{Do you know what the monitor connector looks like? The only cl{possibilities are the DIN plugs on the back of the IBM Emulator cl{card. Unless the monitor was some kind of terminal that attached cl{to the serial port. cl{The 8-pin DIN plug has a little symbol next to it which might cl{represent a CRT. (It looks kind of like a pie slice.) cl{> As I recall, the IBM Emulator board really hacks the WangDOS to cl{>be more like PCDOS and it will then run many - but not all - cl{PCDOS programs. cl{Pretty big hack. A whole PC could fit on a card half that size. :) cl{> Don't believe the D-subs on the back are for monitor and keyboard, cl{>but it may be a different board than I ever saw. cl{Well, I don't know where else to put a monitor. The Wang keyboard cl{plugs into the 4-pin DIN socket connected to the machine's cl{motherboard, I can only guess what the other things are for. I'm cl{just scratching my head trying to figure out how to get a picture cl{from the thing. cl{> > The sticker on the side (top) of the machine says it's a PC-002, cl{>but the > sticker on the back says it's a PC-P002. cl{> > cl{> > The keyboard has a lot of word processing functions on it. cl{> That is what Wang really got established in. cl{Too bad the keyboard doesn't have the greatest feel. And some of cl{the keys are in the wrong places, but that's a holy war I don't cl{want to get into. ;) cl{> > Anyway, I haven't opened it up yet, or done anything with it cl{>but look at > it. Disassembly looks like it might be difficult, cl{>because I have to slip > the innards through the full length cl{>metal sleeve. I won't be up to that > until my arms recover. cl{>I've even got bruises and some kind of blood > blisters or cl{something, from carrying that thing. :/ > cl{> Stand it up on its face and lift the cover off. Everything cl{>inside is in a heavy guage wire frame. cl{Yeah, it took me a few minutes to figure it out, but it opened up cl{easily once I decided to pull from the back instead of the front. :) cl{> - don cl{Doug Spence cl{ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca cl{http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ Hi I used to have an old wang whith a 8086 cpu in it, it had a monotor whith two cords coming out of it. one was power and the other one was for the data, they both pluged into the card whith two plugs on it. the one I had used the round ps2 stile plug maybe a little bigger, like a keyboard plug. Pete Net-Tamer V 1.11 - Registered

27 years, 10 months

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GOOD LORD! VARNISH?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

HOW DO YOU POUR *VARNISH* IN THE BACK OF A COMPUTER AND DON'T KNOW IT???? Just stuck my screwdriver in the back of that Mac 512, trying to open the lid and remove a sorely jammed floppy. (No, I've already tried the little button. It's jammed good.) Pull my screwdriver out - Minus the ending and COVERED IN WET VARNISH! It's all over the place! These morons DUMPED A CAN OF VARNISH in the computer, and didn't know about it! It does power on though... It comes up with the "insert a boot disk" icon. -------

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> 'The DMA address extension register is a 4*4 register file >chip (74LS670) at location . It supplies the top 4 bits >of the system 20 bit address during DMA cycles. Unlike the >segmentation scheme used by the CPU, the extensions address is not a >16 bit segment address which is added to the address from the DMA >controller. Therefore, DMA operations cannot cross 64K boundaries', I can half-understand that, but if you read those urban legends about a guy calling tech support because the power went out in his block (I've had personal experience - my mom thinks there is a significant difference between a TV and monitor as far as cleaning solution is concerned), I sometimes wonder how these people learn to walk :) > >Now remember the PERQ again, and think back to the start of this (long) >thread. The PERQ happens to be the first commercial machine that would >now be classed as a workstation. For that reason alone it should not be >forgotten. But few people have ever heard of it (OK, not on this list >since I do go on about it :-)), or seen one. Which comes back to the >original point. Where should the average man in the street go to see the >machines that led up to the PC he's now using (I'll assume Windows, if >only because it's the most common OS). The average man in England might get your book, the average man in the US doesn't have time. Most people just _don't have time_ to learn about curiosities, especially when such complex, multidimensional concepts are involved. And so many people already have learned to use their computers mechanically (I just turned it on and it always loaded WordPerfect...) that such knowledge would have nowhere to go. I've seen some of my classmate have trouble understanding how muscles work, because they _just do_. Also, the economic forces that partly drove this stuff could never be understood by the naive American. To bring this long rambling to a close, I don't think many people would understand such a history, though that does not mean that we shouldn't try to make them ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Voice recognition?? This is still evolving and has just become viable i <the last year or so. It works in a more than limited fashion, and is onl Still evolving but usable systems are getting near 10 years old! I cite DRAGON Dictate. However user independent is far away. <many different fields. MSX was a standard that was around for a time in <Europe and Japan. Thankfully it didn't catch on in the U.S. or stick <around, but like CP/M it kinda faded. Home automation is an evolving ar MSX was replace like CPM with dos and winders. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Inventory Control (was Re:

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I'm just wondering - what DO you use these machines for? I guess you must have been doing it for a long time if you're using classics for it. Also, I think you should at least have an inventory of the manuals, and an inventory of each machine, ie Apple //c =1 computer =1 monitor //c =1 AC adapter =1 'getting started' guide etc, etc. That way, if you give the machine to someone, you won't leave anything out. >That could never work for me. I have a 'working' collection - machines >are often being used for real-world tasks (I don't really have a >non-classic computer), they're being investigated, hacked, tweaked, >repaired,etc. So machines rarely stay in the same place for very long. > >And while I have shelf after shelf of manuals, many of them are open on >my workbench, near this PC, etc. They're in _use_. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer catalogs wanted

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Can anyone point this guy in the direction of heaps of old computer catalogs? Reply-to: Ferock(a)aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:18:00 EDT From: Ferock(a)aol.com To: vcf(a)siconic.com Subject: computer catalogs I enjoyed reading your web page. I'm also interested in old computers and old computer equipment. I collect old (1980-1990) computer catalogs. I'm especially interested in Black Box and Amp catalogs. If you know anyone who is interested in selling these items, I would greatly appreciate it if you send me an e-mail. Thanks in advance. Glenn

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I guess I missed that one. Wasn't particularly useful, though versions were used as Packard Bell's "Navigator" and a popular game called "Myst" ;) >Bob was touted by Microsoft as the way user interfaces would work from >that point on. It was seen as a way to bring computers to mere consumers, >and launched at CES with great fanfare IIRC. > If you use a keyboard. Imagine a touch screen keyboard that reconfigured itself for your task, and had an enzyme coating that broke down your skin oils to prevent stains (you'd have to take breaks, of course, to prevent skin from drying out), like in Star Trek:The Next Generation. It's farfetched, but I doubt we'll use mechanical keyboard forever. >Touch screens make you take your hands off the keyboard and leave a greasy >mess on your screen while you try in vain to do high resolution tasks with >your low res finger. Can you type while you're buried inside a router closet trying to check network cables? I sure can't... >Even in humans, voice recognition isn't great. That's why there are so >many different words for "huh?". You'll always be able to communicate >with your computer faster and more accurately with a keyboard. Supercomputers are becoming less and less common because as things get cheaper, it's no longer 'super' but 'high-power', and in two years, 'entry-level'. AI works best in parallel, so do simulations like the ones India didn't want to stick to. >The supercomputer tar pits are littered with the remains of parallel >processing companies. They go fast only for a relatively small subset of >programs. > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way cool concept. Which computers did this? Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 9:22 AM Subject: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...) >>> The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that >>> you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think >>> if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the >>> ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- >> >>Actually, the keys to press are: >> >> Cmd-Option-X-O >> >>That's the letter O, not the number zero. > >Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did >that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? >The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. > > Zane >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | >| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | >| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Most of what you list are excellent things that are not yet finished. They WILL catch on when they're done. Bob was just a dumb program. I find the touch screen comment unpleasant because I think touch screens are the key to an easy-to-use interface. Voice recognition and p.p. are in use and are gaining ground. What were bubbles, and why didn't they catch on? Ones you've missed? I think the Amiga caught on a lot less than it should have, same with the Macintosh. >BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite >caught on in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based >computers. Touch screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. >AI. Home automation. The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. > Voice recognition. > >What did I miss? > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Tektronix 4211???

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Anybody know what a Tektronix 4211 is? Its got an RS-232C port on the back, a DB-9 connector, two other db-25 ports, and some other connectors. Its in a desktop case and is greyish in colour. Saw it in a surplus shop so I don't have it in front of me to answer questions. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>But seriously, while _I'd_ only want to write a book that's correct and >complete (and therefore does document every last gate in the device), I >guess few people would ever want to read it. You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The information is invaluable. Tom Owad Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 10 months

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Hang her on the wall.

by drfcline＠netw.com

A piece of computer memorabilia well worth mounting on the wall or giving as a gift is a stack memory card from the UNIVAC computer. It is the LAST time the home of a bit of information could actually be seen - a tiny doughnut on a grid of wires. See it at http://www.netw.com/~drfcline/univac.htm

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>Now remember the PERQ again, and think back to the start of this (long) >thread. The PERQ happens to be the first commercial machine that would >now be classed as a workstation. For that reason alone it should not be >forgotten. But few people have ever heard of it (OK, not on this list >since I do go on about it :-)), or seen one. Which comes back to the >original point. Where should the average man in the street go to see the >machines that led up to the PC he's now using (I'll assume Windows, if >only because it's the most common OS). There's been a lot of talk of talk recently about preserving ROM images and the like so that the machines will still be usable generations >from now. But isn't the history of these machines and of how they were designed just as important as the computer itself? Who cares how much enjoyable it is to read, just so long as the information exists. Tom Owad (whom luckily, isn't knowledgable enough to write a book about classic computers :-) Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The problem being that we don't know most of that >But isn't the history of these machines and of how they were >designed just as important as the computer itself? > Who cares how much enjoyable it is to read, just so long as the >information exists. > >Tom Owad (whom luckily, isn't knowledgable enough to write a book about >classic computers :-) > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by manney＠lrbcg.com

>Hi, > >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its >original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the >Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I >decided to take another machine instead). > >The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN >connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? Yes, it is. > >The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of >ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the >case. The 3.5" drive requires a special controller card that I find rare. Snag it! > >I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with >the car. > > >Doug Spence >ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca >http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/ > >

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, a What's a unix style processor? Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Can't you also tell by the BIOS date?? I seem to remember that the original PC had one of three BIOS dates: 4/24/81, 10/19/81, and 10/27/82. This in combination with looking for a cassette port should be a good way to tell. ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>>

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Yep. I knew most of those. And SPARCs, PPC's, and, if you really want to go on a limb, anything that runs Linux. I was talking about processors, generally associated with UNIX, that also run Windows CE devices. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 5:38 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > ><A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and ><similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 ><family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) ><processors, or SGI MIPS processors. > >Then Alpha, ARM, PDP-11, VAX, 680xx and sundry others are also since they >all run unix. > >careful about retrorevisionist terminology... > >Allison >

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? < Ciao, First of all the I960 is not a new eithernet chip it's off the high end single chip micro end where the 8096 and 80860 lived. 432 based... not even close. The 432 was a data object oriented system with a very unique bus. Aimed at ADA and Pascal type languages. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and <similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 <family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) <processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Then Alpha, ARM, PDP-11, VAX, 680xx and sundry others are also since they all run unix. careful about retrorevisionist terminology... Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Wasn't the i960 (the new Fast Ethernet chip) based on 432 archeticture? Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. > ><> The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. >< ^^^^^^^ ><So you actually posess a 432 based machine? Impressive. I have only ><really heard about them in literature. Always sounded interesting. > >I have Intel docs for them. Old now, like early 80s. > >Allison >

27 years, 10 months

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Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by emu＠ecubics.com

Hi John, RZ23 = 104 MB RZ23L = 121 MB cheers, emanuel

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

><competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, a > >What's a unix style processor? > > >Allison A processor from a company who's highest-end products are UNIX based, and a similiar version (IE in the same family, such as Pentium is in the x86 family). Most Windows CE devices are based on HP/NEC PA-RISC (IIRC) processors, or SGI MIPS processors. Ciao, Tim

27 years, 10 months

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Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more >info on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and >jumper settings. Anyone got anything? If you go to Seagate's website (www.seagate.com) you can find pages for conner drives... it'll have graphics which show the positions of jumpers. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. < ^^^^^^^ <So you actually posess a 432 based machine? Impressive. I have only <really heard about them in literature. Always sounded interesting. I have Intel docs for them. Old now, like early 80s. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Info wanted: Digital RZ23 SCSI Drive

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've got two Digital RZ23 3.5" SCSI drives I'd like to find some more inf <on. I basically need the specs (cylinder, head, size, etc.) and jumper <settings. Anyone got anything? The RZ23 (there are two different ones) are either 105 or 120mb SCSI drives. The group of three(6pins, arranged 2x3) are the address. Check the various vax archives for more specs. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got th <control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well <other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which <contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as yo <wanted it. Check out the IRMX-86 and the 8213x chips... beenthere done that about 12-14 years ago. However in real life OS is software and control is CPU so that logical partition is the norm for most CPUs. It's generally in RAM but as noted there are plenty with bom based kernals and OSs. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<u have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS <that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. Lessee here. My supercrate s100 has CPM/BIOS/Monitor in rom. takes about 3sec to selfcheck and boot. I have an s100 crate with a 2mb write once romdisk of my design. I also have a z80 system with an two intel BPK72 bubble memories on. Each one give 128kb of space. All easily predate the GRID. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Would it be possible to have a control chip and a OS chip? You've got the control chip, which contains address information on the OS chip, as well as other EXTREMELY basic ssytem info. Then you've got the OS chip, which contains the OS. Because of the control chip, it could be as large as you wanted it. I've also heard of a "Windows 98 on a chip" system, with 75MBPS through put. Sounds like the first decent way to load Windows... Ciao, Tim D. Hotze PS-Did any computers have GUI's built in? I think that I recall that a Tandy did, but nothing else... -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 2:09 PM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)) >On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: >> I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with >bug >> fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a >way >> cool concept. Which computers did this? > >Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The >original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). > Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of >about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the >relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that >point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more >tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions >on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > Dept. of Computer Science > University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 26, 23:31, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > Yes, LaTeX. Since it can actually be translated to other forms. A .PDF > is more or less a bitmap picture of what used to be text and is usually > unreadable -- Hell, last week at work I got an email with a .PDF > attachment that included the icon where the document said "examine the > attached bitmap" left over from its Word origin, but for some reason > clicking on that icon in the .PDF doesn't bring up the full picture. No, PDF is more-or-less PostScript. However, *some* PDF documents actually include scanned images, which of course are usually bitmaps because the creator didn't OCR them. Both PostScript and PDF files can contain text, vector graphics, and bitmap graphics. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 26, 21:15, Hotze wrote: > I LOVE that idea. Now, it'd need to be EPROM, especially nowadays with bug > fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way > cool concept. Which computers did this? Acorn's RISC PC has the OS (RISC OS 3.7) in ROM, about 4MB IIRC. The original Archimedes range (1987) had RISC OS 2.0 in ROM (512K, IIRC). Usually they're mask ROMs or OTPROMs. The OS is structured as a series of about 80 relocatable modules, so if an upgrade is required, you load the relevant replacement module into RAM, and the kernel changes the links that point to it. Of course, changing the kernel module itself is a little more tricky, but it can be done -- the first RISC OS 2 upgrades had instructions on how to boot the system from a disk to load a new "utility module". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Overhyped Innovations (was Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>I think cost had something to do with it, too. Cost shouldn't have anything to do with innovation. It's really a bummer. >BTW, I enjoy collecting over-hyped innovations that never quite caught on >in the way they were supposed to: Bubbles. Pen-based computers. Touch >screens. Wireless networks. Bob. MSX. Robots. AI. Home automation. >The Z8000. The iAPX432. Parallel processing. Voice recognition. Pen-based computers, although not a BOOMING success, have had a limited success. Their gaining momentum, too. Robots? Once again, go into a factory. You'll see them at work. BTW, how rare are Androbots? Wireless networks? I've seen a fwe. But I'd like more tech behind them. Bob? He was way cool. Then he died out. Too bad. AI is very much in a state of recession, as early depressions in the 80's took all the hype out of it. I say that we saw the last of current AI's with Deep Blue last year. They'll come back, but not until 64-bit is standard. Voice recognitions much the same as AI, but with a little more life, as it actually has some practical applications that are already partially-functional. >What did I miss? Bunches of processors, lots of RAM designs, some cool hard disk systems, and PC/TV integration. >-- Doug Tim D. Hotze

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes..

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Come to think of it, ALL of the Windows CE devices have their OS in ROM. *My* opinion is that for UNIX hardware, it's going to be UNIX's biggest competitor. Most Windows CE devices run off of UNIX-style processors, as that's the only way that they can get any speed inexpensively and with a decent battery life. Ciao, Tim -----Original Message----- From: Ward Donald Griffiths III <gram(a)cnct.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, June 27, 1998 9:14 AM Subject: Re: OS's In ROM's (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes.. >Doug Yowza wrote: >> >> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, Tom Owad wrote: >> >> > I belive Apple's Newtons have the OSes in ROM. They certainly do boot >> > quickly and a chip swap is need to upgrade the OS. >> >> Later Newts, including the eMate, are flash upgradable. A quick boot >> doesn't require a ROM OS, though. Windows is a slow booter even when >> ROM'd, but battery-backed RAM gives many portables an instant boot even >> with Windows. >> >> Of course, if you have a GRiD Compass with bubble memory, you get an OS >> that acts like it's in ROM, but bubbles are writable. > >Yes, and bubbles rival floppies for speed. There's a _reason_ why >that innovation didn't catch on. >-- >Ward Griffiths >They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. >Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_

27 years, 10 months

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Inventory Control (was Re: "No name" S-100 computer)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote: > I'm pretty new to the collecting game, but I'm already having trouble > keeping machines, parts, software, manuals, and releated stuff tractable. > I've picked-up some barcode reading equipment with the idea that one day > I'll encode the contents of all of my boxes, and tie it to all together > with a database that include historical info, condition info, and other > notes. Doug, you live in a part of California that has a dry climate. How do you propose to affix barcodes to boxes? Are they sticky labels? Have you noticed that the sticky stuff turns brittle after a while (like, say, three years or so), and the labels become susceptible to falling off? Not that I want to discourage you, you understand. Besides, the inventory number is precious little of what I want to log, it just wouldn't save me that much typing. OK, that said, the schema of my database looks something like this at present: Number: an inventory item number. Type: a one-word description of just what sort of object is described by this record; types thus far are: Ad (advertisement or marketing materials) Article (magazine article or photocopy thereof) Book (includes manuals) HW (hardware) LST (listing) Papers Part Periodical (really should be "serial") Pkg (package - generally packaging material or a complete boxed package) Refcard Supplies SW (software) Title: title or brief description of object Author: the author Manufacturer: the manufacturer or publisher of the object. Manufacture Date: manufacture or publishing date ISBN: ISBN number LCCN: Library of Congress Catalog Number Model: model name/number Part Number: manufacturer's part number Version: version Volume#Number: Volume#number for serials Serial: manufacturer's serial number Acquisition Date: date when I got it Source: where I got it from Location: where it is now (box ID or shelf location) Home Location: where it normally lives ToDo: flag: does this need work? (see notes) Notes: free-form text notes, containing additional description, relationship to other items, work that needs to be done Dates are actually text fields, because most database software has really Procrustean date handling that wants to make everything fit its idea of a datestamp. The syntax I use goes like this: yyyy[/mm[/dd]][~] where [] surrounds optional text, yyyy is year, mm is month, dd is day-of-month, and ~ means "approximate". People's names are always in "Last, First" format. ... I say the schema is "something like this" because it is changing, again. I'm fooling around with New Software, actually several New Softwares that are all several-years-old dBase-alikes that run on my HP200LX palmtop. Prior to that it's been through several iterations, most of which are still there because I haven't re-inventoried stuff, done with Lotus 1-2-3 (one row per item) and the HP 100/200LX ROM'd database software (which has a limit of 5000 records per database that is past being a looming problem, hence me looking for new software). And yes, some of the ways I do things (like having only one note field) is due to architectural limitations of the previous software. ... Oh yeah, and how do I label boxes? Well, I use those hinged-lid plastic containers that you can get at Costco. They're sort of transparent, so I just write the box numbers on 5x8" index cards with a broad felt-tip marker and drop them in so I can see them through the sides. No worries about labels falling off. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

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720K drives on an original PC was Re: Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-26 21:30:20 EDT, you write: << 720K drives will work fine on the original drive controller AFTER you load the driver file. I've done it dozens of times to connect my NEC Multi-Speed drives to the PC. The only problem is that you can't boot from them since the driver has to be loaded for them to work. I don't *think* the 1.44 Mb drives will work on the controller though. Joe >> i've never needed a driver file in my case. for example, i have a few xt models around here and when i need to install dos or copy files over from a later computer with only a 3.5 drive, i just plug a 720k floppy into the drive controller cable in place of the 360k drive and i'm off and running. i think i could boot off the 720 drive also. you are correct in that 1.44 drives are not supported, although i do have an adaptor card that will let hi density drives work in an xt. david

27 years, 10 months

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Aim65 computers F/S

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I got a line on about 9 AIM65-based computer systems. These systems not only include the AIM, but also a custom-made case, power supply, keyboard, and miscellaneous related stuff. These would go for about $100 each + S/H. These units are supposed to be new, being built for a specific project which never got off the ground. Those interested, e-mail me separately. Thanks! ================================== Rich Cini/WUGNET - Charter ClubWin! Member (6) - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of classic computers <<========== Reply Separator ==========>>

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio h <dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 201 <PS1 had dos in rom. Not to mention Epson PX-8 (and a few others) when CP/M OS in rom and applications in roms (cartridges) as well. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I like system 6 much more than the later ones because I think it holds truer to the theory of simplicity and ease-of-use. Try sticking a MacOS 8 system folder on a RAMdisk and boot off that! Will never work. System 6 you could do that on, I've tried. Another feature of System 6 was a macro recorder which has been replaced by the more difficult Applescript. >I don't know of any other Macs with that feature either, and I'll bet that >there were none. It was a somewhat Spartan version (not as unpleasant as >a boot floppy, much less pleasant than a fancy hard-drive installation). >Now that Systems 7 and 8 have taken over, it probably would seem pretty >barren. It sure is fast though! But none of your Finder preferences get >saved. (Where would they go?) They could go to PRAM, but I guess they didn't. What's the tag? >BTW, if you "Get Info" on the virtual hard drive, you'll see an amusing >tag in the "Location" field. > >-- Derek > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Heads-up: Cleveland OH, mini's etc

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

Nasa Lewis has some old computer stuff up for bid, including a couple PDP-11's and an IBM 7015 (whatever that is!). Here are some URLs: http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/980010detail.htm http://ltwebp.lerc.nasa.gov/sales.htm A partial list follows. Note that there were several of some of these items, and some of them had different notes attached. Inspection day is Thursday, July 9th from 7:30 am to 3:00. Bids will be opened Wednesday, July 15th at 1:00 pm. I don't know if there is an earlier deadline for getting bids in. There are other rules too (of course). See those web pages for more info. PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA CONCURRENT COMPUTER 3250XP 600 # 30" X 45" X 50" COMPUTER, MINI IBM 7015 3'X2'X6' 300# CONTROL, COMPUTER STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4670 30"X24"X52" 400# TAPE DRIVE UNIT STORAGE TECHNOLOGY CORP 4674 30"X31"X52" 450# DISK DRIVE UNIT SEAGATE 47177701 COMPUTER, MINI SOLBOURNE COMPUTER 5E900 4'X4'X6', 500 LBS. TAPE DRIVE UNIT TRIMM IND DA20V1R PART OF T/N 1109700 COMPUTER, MICRO CONCURRENT COMPUTER 6605 80 # 32 CHANNEL PROCESSOR, DIGITAL DATA DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP MNC11DA IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# INPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDI IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# OUTPUT MODULE DIGITAL MNCDO IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# CHASSIS, EXPANSION CONCURRENT COMPUTER 20 # 16 CHANNELS DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL01A IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 IN A RACK (30"X21"X42") 350# COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 11-24XX DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP 70-12130 COMPUTER, MINI DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP PDP11/24 DISK DRIVE UNIT DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP RL02 27"X19"X11",60#, WON'T POWER UP DISK DRIVE UNIT IBM 3380 44"X32"X70" 325# If only I had a basement, a truck, and a couple days of spare time... Have fun! Bill.

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sure, we'd all buy, at least in the interest of solidarity, but I'm not sure how many others would. Either way, I don't know how many people are alive now and able to access the 'net that have ever touched a PERQ >You could release it in pdf format on the internet with a $5 shareware >fee, or something. I'd certainly buy it, and I'm sure lots of other >people (such as the ones who subscribe to this list) would as well. The >information is invaluable. > >Tom Owad > >Sysop of Caesarville Online >Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/> > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> wrote: > > So...how did/do you read the 386i? > > A bad mistake. I gather that is what Sun feels these days too. A while back I asked a friend within Sun who has been able to find interesting stuff for me >from time to time whether he could get certain information about the 386i[1], and that is about the answer I got: don't ask about the 386i, no-one wants to remember. > God only knows what they were thinking - the 68020 and 68030 machines were > quite capable at the time. Well, one view is that they were thinking with a different brain -- the 386i was a somewhere-in-Massachusetts creation, while the rest of Sun is in (or slightly north of) Sillycon Valley and I've gathered didn't pay much attention to the 386i. Also (from looking at the manuals) I gather it would have made a pretty nifty MS-DOS development environment for its day, being able to boot MS-DOS in several independent virtual machines. I'll have to play with that someday and see how well it really works. > Wasn't the i386 pretty much a failure by the time the Sun-4s came out. I don't think so. In fact I think it came out pretty much concurrently with, or maybe even shortly after the early Sun-4s -- it only ever ran its peculiar version of SunOS 4.0.x. That's why I used to think of it as Sun hedging its bets on the future. -Frank McConnell [1] Someone wanted to port Linux to it. No, I don't understand why, there are plenty of i386s in the world to run Linux, and besides the Sun 386i and the appropriate SunOS really sort of go together IMO. But I figured I would inquire anyway, one can never have too much documentation.

27 years, 10 months

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Fw: Free Morrow S-100 CP/M Systems

by cgregory＠lrbcg.com

-----Original Message----- From: Art Carlson <xnospamx(a)netrix.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Date: Saturday, June 13, 1998 10:50 AM Subject: Free Morrow S-100 CP/M Systems >*** DO NOT AUTOREPLY *** > > I have two Morrow S-100 systems complete with drives, manuals, and >disks, which I will give to a good home. They do not include terminals. > The catch is that they are located in Northwest Montana, and I will >not pack or ship them, they would have to be picked up here. > E-mail me with any serious inquiries. >SPAM BLOCK replace xnospamx in the address with acarlson > Art Carlson >

27 years, 10 months

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Sun and the CPU Wars (was Re: NeXT cubes or slabs.)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

William Donzelli <william(a)ans.net> wrote: > Actually, the 88000 was killed off because Sun went with the SPARCs for > their next generation of machines, the Sun-4 series. So...how did/do you read the 386i? Back then, I read it as Sun hedging its bets against a total victory by Intel in the CPU Wars of the late 1980s: they could sell Motorola, Intel, and SPARC today (today being then, not now) and promise to be around tomorrow no matter what the CPU of tomorrow looked like. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

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IBM RS6000 for sale

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> The 320H is a decent machine (unlike the 220 dog), but lacks a ethernet > port. Like most RS/6000s, it has screaming floating point, and can use XGA > (a bit more tube freindly than other workstations). [Pause while I get up from my desk and go and look at our RS/6000s] Hey! You're right! Our 320 machines (320E, upgraded from 320 something else I think, equivalent to 320H) have ethernet on a microchannel card. That shouldn't be too hard to find... We've had our 320s for six years or more, our 375 for four or five. We are thinking of getting something faster but it's hard to match the FP performance on anything modern. With luck, when (if) we do, I'll get the old ones. FWIW the fastest FP we found in our sort of price range was the RS/6000 model 397. The last of the POWER RISC machines, much faster than the Power PC RS/6000s... But I fear we're a bit off topic here... Philip.

27 years, 10 months

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new additions (and plenty of em!)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

some guy at work knew i enjoyed collecting old stuff so he contacted me and gave me all this: 15 apple scsi peripheral cables, 7 that were never opened 3 //e enhancement kits. 1 in original packaging. also some loose chips thrown in with the rest of the junk i got. localtalk locking connector kit. <?> 2 ext 80 col card 1 in original packaging never opened. 1 imagewriter 2 /lq localtalk option 2 mouse //e 1 never opened //gs mem exp card 2 supr serial card 1 never opened 1 mouse //e workstation card never opened <!> 6 apple 256k mem exp upgrade kits. only 1 was opened. microtek language card unidisk 5.25 controller undisk 3.5 controller many user manuals for apple // and mac some never opened tandy dcm3 modem 2 ext 80 col card 1 scsi cable extender grappler card ibm 2.88 floppy drive. has standard form factor unlike ps2 2.88 floppy. proprinter ribbons ps2 mouse never used in box ps2 tape backup for qic80 tapes with matching install b and c kits appleshare pc program future domain isa scsi card 2 ps2 4meg kits never used 1 16meg ecc mem 1 box of 10 2meg upgrade kits. never used! mca 16/4 token ring nic mca 2-8 meg mem expansion card 11 boca 512/1meg svga isa video cards never used apple tutorial disks never used. also a few other minor things i cant remember. everything above remain in their original boxes im cancelling a fishing trip to go back to his house tonight and pick up some more things. he used to either work for skool system or was with a servicer involved with skools which is where this probably all came from. i'll update when i get the other goodies. unfortunately, no lisa stuff, although it cant hurt to ask. i'll probably keep most of this although i bet i could make a killing hyping it up for sale on ebay... 8-( david

27 years, 10 months

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Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca

Hi, I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I decided to take another machine instead). The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? The machine also had a full complement of cards in its slots, with lots of ports coming out of it. And a 3.5" drive that was poorly fitted into the case. I'm wondering if I should make a trip downtown sometime this weekend, with the car. Doug Spence ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of the only thing obstructing innovation: Money. Tim -----Original Message----- From: George Currie <g(a)kurico.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, June 26, 1998 9:04 PM Subject: Re: NeXT cubes or slabs. Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by Motorola and of course we all know what happened to PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. George

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

Not to mention the HP-110 Portables . . . > operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio has > dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 2011 IBM > PS1 had dos in rom. > > david > > In a message dated 98-06-26 14:22:44 EDT, you write: > > < fixes, a new version every other day of the week, etc. but still, it's a way > cool concept. Which computers did this? > Ciao, >> > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 457

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)ricochet.net> wrote: ] Picked up a cartridge for the Coco t'other day, and I'm not sure what it ] is. It says "Cat. No. 26-3129" and "Color Computer Controller" on it. Has ] the card-edge connector where it plugs in, then another, smaller one on the ] back end. My guess is it's a floppy controller? Here is a URL for you: http://members.tripod.com/~qtv/index-7.html It lists Radio Shack items and catalog numbers. According to that, what you've got is a "Color Thinline Disk #0 Kit 349.95". I suppose that part number was for the entire kit, drive and controller both. Bill.

27 years, 10 months

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OS's In ROMs (was: Re: Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...))

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

operating systems in rom? that seems fairly popular. my atari portfolio has dos in rom as well as my tandy 100 has apps in rom. even the original 2011 IBM PS1 had dos in rom. david In a message dated 98-06-26 14:22:44 EDT, you write: <>

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

If you ask me, CHRP was worthless, like the rest of the Apple cloning program. In the end, not a soul made a cent off that whole thing, and many people were stuck with machines that didn't have warranty / support. Lastly, what's so good about a DB25 serial port on a Mac anyway? Now USB is good. Could NeXTs run any non-NeXT software? >Sounds cool. Many of the greatest design concepts are stopped... not >because of bugs, not because of tiredness of developers, but because of the >only thing obstructing innovation: Money. > >Tim >Actually they (NeXT) had started work on a dual Motorola 88000 machines >before NeXT dropped out of the hardware biz. Some former NeXT hardware >guys went on to form a company called FirePower to design PREP?, CHRP? >compliant PPC computers. They released a few but were then bought by >Motorola and of course we all know what happened to >PREP/CHRP/WhatEVER. > >George > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT Resources?

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Hi. Does anyone know of (or have) a page on NeXT's with photos, docs, etc.? Thanks, Tim

27 years, 10 months

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TRS-80 video synch chaos

by ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca

I've got a TRS-80 Model I that MOSTLY works (I typed in a program to fill the screen with characters and the screen did fill up) except for the video synchronization. Characters lean to the right, and the display moves all over the screen. Usually the motion is quickly to the left while also moving upward, though sometimes it stabalizes and just moves upward. Is there an adjustment to control this somewhere? The machine is in beautiful physical shape - it looks unused. There's even a sticker still on it that is stuck to the expansion port's trapdoor and sticks also to the machine's case. And the warrantee seal hasn't been broken yet. Doug Spence ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

>The latter (Sam Goldberger) is in Mill Valley, California. I think >Deep Space is in New Mexico. There used to be some guy on the east >coast but he seems to have disappeared... odd since he seemed to have >most of the CIA inventory. And what, prey tell, is so odd about that? ;-) >Since I'm an Openstep developer, in my mind they aren't really >antiques... though the CPU clock rates are low by todays standards >they still perform very well for day-to-day use because the software >(OS, application framework and display mode) layers were engineered >very efficiently. The platform is just barely ten years old and >still very modern if not futuristic. Yep. I actually think that Apple could appeal more to the design market by releasing a new PPC based NeXT. That would give the platform a significant boost. Especially becasue I've heard that Apple's going to be making $500-$1500 devices. PPC NeXTs could sell for well over $5-$10, even for a lower-end one. >The "PrinterWorks" I believe, still sells laserprinters for them. >With these, you can essentially turn a NeXT Cube or station into a >Win 95/NT printing engine via Samba networking, have it run your web >server, and use it to run many applications that would make both >Windows and plain old Unix jealous if they were jealous kinds of >Operating Systems. Sounds cool. But getting more and more off topic... >If all else fails, there's also comp.sys.next.marketplace, where >everyone is trying to sell what they have right now. ALL RIGHT!!! There's a NeXT in my future! >Collectable items include extra DSP memory, the ancient ISDN modem >that worked through the DSP port, Ariel Digital Microphones, Digital >Ears [a Digital Sound I/O system]. DSP Memory? DUDE!!! >Also... the 20 " monitors were _beautiful_ to work nexst to. Before >I sold mine I always felt like I was almost living inside my NeXT. >But they are oh so heavy! Well, it could have been inside of a titanium alloy casing... >Cubes are ultra-ergonomic. The cases very somewhat depending on >when they were made. I like the cases the early 68030 machines... >they had less ventilation I think but they looked cooler... more >metalic somehow. No kidding. That's the big catch to NeXT's. The looks. Once you see one, you can't really sleep easy until one's inside of your house. Ciao, Tim D. Hotze

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books (was: Re[2]: Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

GOD this is a long thread! >Well, considering the reason that I started collection computers 12 >years ago was so that people would have the chance to use >frontpanels, paper tape, punched cards etc in he future, I might do >that sometime. Problem is it would take a lot of work, and I doubt if >anyone would buy it. > >-tony Why not? The Soul of a New Machine, Insanely Great, and Hackers seemed to do just fine, to name a few. I don't mean an encyclopedia, but a bunch of stories about the design of stuff (i.e. a chapter on how Multics was made, a chapter on how the Apple arose, a chapter on where the ENIAC came from,etc.). It seems that people can only read things like this if they are made about people rather than, "The idea began slowly to take shape that instead of using a two-stage adder it would be easier to use a shift register. This was to come up later when..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> I suggest real CD-ROMs > Do you believe that there will still be working CD-ROM drives in > 20 or 30 years time? Remember they contain custom chips as well... Jep, I think there will still be (new) compatible drives in consumer price range - and I bet that there are for shure still new drives in the 'professional' price range in 20 years >from now. I don't think the drive is the problem, new medias are maybe a lot more difficult to aquire - try to buy _new_ _manufactured_ 8" disks - everyting you get as 'new' is at least 6 years old. > And storage systems change. When was the last time you saw a working > Syquest 10Mbyte drive (note, the 2 on my shelf don't count, as they need > minor repairs...) No, never had one, but what about 10 MB Bernouli Drives from Iomega ? I still have a unit of two in working condition - now 15 years old. >> What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? > The problem is that the data is held by an electrostatic charge on a > floating gate in the chip. It's a capacitor, really, and like all > capacitors it slowly discharges. Now, the time constant may be 10 years > or 20 years, or whatever, but it's still going to discharge. ? depending on the tecnology. > And chips - all chips - fail. If (say) the bondout wire on one of the > data pins falls off, there's no easy way to repair it. Yes, but a lot less and later than magnetic medias. > Oh, and putting chips in styrofoam is the quickest way to damage them > from static. And although the damage may not be noticeable at the time, > the chip might fail 1 month later, or whatever. :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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The Beatles

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> > I just found a discarded Packard Bell 486 (I almost left it because the > > case looked like a 286's). I don't know why you all dislike those things > > so much, this case is very good. Anyway, when the machine boots, the ROM > > displays a "Packard Bell" graphic, complete with a 3-second fade-in (if > > only people paid so much attention to _useful_ stuff). Underneath, it > > displays, "America grew up listening to us. It still does." Now, this is > > my question. What does this mean? When was this company founded, and > > what was their original product? > > Packard-Bell, as you see it, is simply not the company it used to be. As > with so many American company names, someone bought the name. <Some Defence-Related stuff PB did in the 1950's SNIPed> > I have no idea what happened to Packard-Bell. They may still be around, > doing defense work, or they may have been swallowed up. The Packard-Bells > at CompUSA, however, are simply not related. The way I seen it, P-B may have been a defence contractor during WWII and later, but their main claim to fame was that for decades, they were one of the biggest manufacturers of Broadcast radios, and Television Sets. I know for a fact they were making TV's (of the humongous console variety in vogue at the time) in the early 70's because I remember an inane TV commercial for it. In the 50's and 60's there were some other major players that manufactured TV's (they actually *made* the stuff): Admiral (my grandmother had one), Motorola, GE, RCA and Zenith. Others were: Pilot, Curtis-Mathes (still around, I think), Hofmann, Westinghouse and a whole bunch of other minor players. Then the Japanese arrived (en force) in the mid 70's, and the next thing we knew thousands of americans were out of work, and no Televisions (or Computer monitors, for that matter) were made domestically. Packard-Bell was one of these victims. I don't know who is behind the resurrection of the P-B brandname. I suspect they wanted to appeal to baby-boomers who fondly remember watching 'Hopalong', 'Cisco' or 'Bonanza' on their parents' Packard Bell console TV. Jeff > > By the way, Packard-Bell has nothing to do with HP. > > William Donzelli > william(a)ans.net > > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by thomas100＠home.com

Actually the slabs are very common in the U.S evidently because of the contract NeXT had with the CIA. Cubes aren't that much rarer... just more expensive. Two places where you can go for NeXT equipment are: http://www.deepspacetech.com http://www.orb.com The latter (Sam Goldberger) is in Mill Valley, California. I think Deep Space is in New Mexico. There used to be some guy on the east coast but he seems to have disappeared... odd since he seemed to have most of the CIA inventory. I seem to remember his warehouse lease expired and he had some kind of blowout sale last year! Since I'm an Openstep developer, in my mind they aren't really antiques... though the CPU clock rates are low by todays standards they still perform very well for day-to-day use because the software (OS, application framework and display mode) layers were engineered very efficiently. The platform is just barely ten years old and still very modern if not futuristic. The "PrinterWorks" I believe, still sells laserprinters for them. With these, you can essentially turn a NeXT Cube or station into a Win 95/NT printing engine via Samba networking, have it run your web server, and use it to run many applications that would make both Windows and plain old Unix jealous if they were jealous kinds of Operating Systems. If all else fails, there's also comp.sys.next.marketplace, where everyone is trying to sell what they have right now. Collectable items include extra DSP memory, the ancient ISDN modem that worked through the DSP port, Ariel Digital Microphones, Digital Ears [a Digital Sound I/O system]. Also... the 20 " monitors were _beautiful_ to work nexst to. Before I sold mine I always felt like I was almost living inside my NeXT. But they are oh so heavy! Cubes are ultra-ergonomic. The cases very somewhat depending on when they were made. I like the cases the early 68030 machines... they had less ventilation I think but they looked cooler... more metalic somehow. thomas100(a)home.com

27 years, 10 months

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High-end SCSI 9-track drives available!

by kyrrin＠jps.net

Heads up, 9-track users! RE-PC, a local (Seattle/Tukwila, two locations) used computer place I work with has turned up yet -another- pair of M4 Data 9914R 9-track tape drives. Specs can be found at www.m4data.com. The 9914 is built like the proverbial tank. It is actuall a dual-interface device. Leave the SCSI card in, and it is standard SCSI-1 with a 768K buffer. Pull the SCSI card out, and uncover the edge connectors on the back, and it becomes a standard Pertec interface unit. Only one interface may be used at one time; you cannot have both simultaneously. One -really- nice feature of the 9914's, besides how robustly they're built, is that they're quad-density. They will handle any standard density of 9-track tape from 800 (NRZI) to 6250 (GCR). They're front-loading, horizontal mount, and feature a very reliable vacuum-driven autoloading system. Stick the reel in, close the door, and wait about twenty seconds. The 9914 is still manufactured, and supported by M4 Data. Documentation, parts and firmware updates are still available if you can live with some of M4's prices. I've inspected both drives and they look to be in good shape. One looks like it took a minor impact to the rear quarter, as the card cage cover had bent corners (believe me, that's not going to bother a 9914!). Other than that, they look great. If you're interested, contact RE-PC in Tukwila directly: (206) 575-8737. Ask for Eric and tell him I referred you. The last 9914 in good shape went for $165 (a steal considering that these monsters still go for around $7,000 from M4), and I expect the others will be about the same (probably less for the one that's slightly dinged). Take a friend with you when you go. These drives are not light! I can lift one by myself, but it's not a fun experience. The back end is the heaviest as that's where the power transformer is. I've already grabbed three of the beasties. It's time to share the wealth. Enjoy! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 10 months

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New eMail Address; Out Of Contact

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Hi. For those who care, from the 27th to the 8th of July, I'll be out of contact. In the mean time, I can be reached at worldsfate(a)geocities.com , and that should get to me after the 8th. This eMail address is getting disconnected. I'm unsubscribing from the list until I can get a faster POP account. Maybe a Hotmail/web based eMail one would work. Anyway, does anyone know an ISP in Washington, DC that could get me hooked up QUICK, from a handheld and only for about a month? Ciao, Tim D. Hotze

27 years, 10 months

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"No name" S-100 computer

by bobstek＠ix.ix.netcom.com

Dave - Your timing is good for asking about a ProcTech tape archive. I've been working with another Sol owner and will soon have a CUTS programs CD-ROM (just use a portable CD-ROM player in place of the cassette player) with as much of the original software as it's been possible to find (TARG, BASIC5, TREK80, FOCAL, PILOT, etc.). I also have a tape from Proteus, the ProcTech users group, which I can send you immediately. Email me you address and I'll pop it in the mail. Bob Stek

27 years, 10 months

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macintoshes, part ][

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 25 Jun 98 at 21:38, SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote: > Ive got a IIcx that ive tricked out with 5meg, mono display, two external > drives, syquest 44 meg drive and the apple cd300 drive and a radius rocket > accelerator with 8 meg. unfortunately, the rocket accelerator locks up the > machine on the second reboot. disabling it lets the mac work at original > speed. can anyone provide suggestions? the rocket seems to be temperamental, > from what i can see. David, You are about to discover how temperamental the Rocket really can be... I dare say you know that Radius still have the latest RocketWare software and a brief FAQ available on their ftp site. There's another utility there called "lift-off" that checks the configuration of the host Mac for timing senstitive cards that may conflict with the Rocket. Have you tried knocking up a minimal system floppy (eg disk tools for System 7.0 with the RocketWare extension added) and thried booting >from that? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

27 years, 10 months

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Way to identify original IBM-PC?

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

> >I was wondering if there's a surefire way of telling if an IBM-PC has its >original motherboard, without opening the case. I saw one at the >Salvation Army today and was considering dragging it home (though I >decided to take another machine instead). > >The machine did have a cassette port in the back, with a femal DIN >connector. Is this attached to the motherboard? Yes it is. So it sounds like it's original. There were 2 motherboards, a 16-64k and a 64-256k. The former was the original one. The latter has a B in a circle stamped on the back plate.

27 years, 10 months

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Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 25 Jun 98 at 23:22, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Wow, it has the complete OS in ROM? I didn't know any of the Mac's did > that. Are there any others or was this a one shot experiment that failed? > The OS in ROM is the main thing I like about the Atari ST's. ISTR that Apple were looking at a diskless Mac project -- the sort of thing that would interest education. The Classic was available as a hard diskless model according to the manual but I've never seen one. Of course the diskless idea would never have worked very well as there was nowhere to install extensions/INITs and the diskless Classic was stuck on System 6.0.x and there was no ethernet capability. (An aside: Sonic Systems later developed The Diskless Mac (TDM) which used a boot PROM on an ethernet card to attach to an AppleShare server where a System image was stored. This worked with System 7 but the hardware range was limited.) Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

27 years, 10 months

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Attache Altair??

by altair8800＠hotmail.com

I have made contact with an individual who has what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would appreciate any information about this "Attache". Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? It has MITS boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. Would that be a good trade on my part? Thanks, Bob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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subscribe

by thomas100＠home.com

Please forgive if this is an inappropriate way to subscribe and it goes onto your mailing list. I'm not sure whether this server knows to add me or if I need to make contact with a specific individual before I am subscribed. I've been looking around this list for what must be years! Thomas Pfaff thomas100(a)home.com Trs-80 Model 4 lover

27 years, 10 months

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CP/M

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 07:44 PM 6/18/98 -0700, Bruce Lane wrote: > Where did you get the idea that tape is so fragile? I'd wager the ones you >encountered were either of very poor quality or were stored under adverse >conditions (high heat, high humidity, etc). A side note: I've got VHS tapes that are 10-12 years old and still look the same when played. I find that most tapes fail with heavy use, not age deterioration. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

27 years, 10 months

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Mac Classic prob (was Macintoshes...)

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

Megan Gentry wrote: > >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the > >smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes >light > grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds >and > then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this >way > for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this >normal? The Mac Classic contains a complete System 6 installation in ROM that you can boot from. Sorry but I don't have the docs handy, but I think if you press Command-Option-Shift-X on startup, it'll boot from the ROM. Another way that should work is Command-Option-Shift-Backspace -- this key combination should work on any SCSI capable Mac to supress booting from the default SCSI boot device. Once you've booted, you'll need to scrounge a copy of Disk First Aid or a third party utility to check the hard disk. Do you have system install disks etc for the machine? Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> It can't be as bad as the Science Museum in London, surely. I was there >>> earlier this week, and what a _joke_!!! >> I never been there - hmm maybe I should tak a weekend - is >> there a Website to get the opening hours ? > Well, IMHO, it's worth the admission charge (\pounds 6.50 (!)) if you're > interested in things other than classic computers. But it's not worth it > for the computers alone. > I've been interested in clocks for about 25 years or more, so seeing a > Synchronome working (even if the description wasn't that good) was worth > it. Ditto for a lot of the other clocks (going back many centuries) - > most of them are ticking away... > Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good > idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of > historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested > in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum since the first years, and the combination of historic displays and learning works fine - at least for me. >> Ok, the 2002 wouldn't be exactly the machine for continous >> display in action, but even if it is just as static display, > No, but fire it up from time to time to show it in operation. Even just 1 > or 2 days a year. Announce the days in advance and the hackers can come > along and see a real machine in operation >> this one time running test ist the best verification that the >> static display is _complete_. >> (In fact, the critical part of the 2002 is the storage drum - >> even back in time when it was new, every power up and down >> had to be guarded by tecnicans - hmm but even here, since >> the drum is a closed device, one could replace it (invisible) >> by a modern electronic emulation... just thinking) > Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and > counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with > more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation). Exactly my idea of a display ... Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Back to the Future

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Aha, y'all thought I was being cute with the subject... 8^) I re-watched BttF II the other night, and noticed that in the window of the shop where Marty buys the sports almanac was an interesting item, an "antique computer". (A mac Plus-ish machine.) I'm not sure exactly what year II came out (about '87-88?) but that was pretty insightful, I think. ('Course, they were pretty cool movies anyway.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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COMPUTER AUTOMATION ALPHA-16

by LAAG＠pacbell.net

I HAVE SEVERAL COMPUTER AUTOMATION ALPHA-16 MINICOMPUTERS... THEY HAVE CORE MEMORY AND NO PARTICULAR MICRO-PROC CHIP BUT A WHOLE BOARD OF CHIPS FOR THAT FUNCTION... THESE ARE 16 BIT COPUTERS MADE IN THE EARLY 70'S... ANYONE INTERESTED??? I ALSO HAVE SOME 8" FLOPPIES... LAAG(a)PACBELL.NET

27 years, 10 months

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Free boot disks for Lisa

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

Heads up for Lisa owners. Saw this on Obsolete Comps. DO NOT E-MAIL ME. CONTACT THE ADDRESSEE BELOW ! Michael Getsey <getsey(a)ix.netcom.com> St. Louis, MO USA - Wednesday, June 24, 1998 at 03:24:39 Have three 5.25 inch, double sided, double density disks for Apple III PC. I used these for a COBOL class I had at The Citadel. Disks are Apple III E-Z Pieces Boot Disc, Compiler, and Utilities. I believe I was using them on an Apple Lisa at the time ( 1983 ). They're free for the asking. Send me your "snail mail" address, and they're yours! lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 10 months

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Coco Question

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Picked up a cartridge for the Coco t'other day, and I'm not sure what it is. It says "Cat. No. 26-3129" and "Color Computer Controller" on it. Has the card-edge connector where it plugs in, then another, smaller one on the back end. My guess is it's a floppy controller? Also, does anyone know what happened to Roger Merchberger? Seems to have disappeared. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>Care to name some cool >technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? OK! the usage of fire, the processing of most materials (iron, copper, wood, stone, etc.). In fact, if you say that capitalism is only present when it's called capitalism, then most technologies. All simple machines. The scale. The boat. Most things achieved by the military such as the computer (yes, they were partly bombing Japan for economic reasons, but that's a little farfetched). All nuclear equipment was engineered separately in the USSR. Had enough yet? The printing press. The castle. The book. Writing. At any rate, I'm not saying Capitalism is BAD, I'm just saying it doesn't promote ingenuity, which is true for many other governments. >- John > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Mac Answers

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

To the person looking for a Mac keyboard and mouse... Before you start getting that 'ol 512 ready to rumble most of the internet software you want to learn about will NOT work on it (save for an older (really older) mac terminal like Red Ryder via a provider's UNIX shell account). Best to go with the SE and the ADB route and get an appropriate mouse and keyboard to get on the net. (though you can get up to web browsing with an SE but without such niceities as pictures and such.) Then such things as PPP, TCP/IP, etc apply. Though You should ask for something like a color LC, Performa, or centris class as they would also let you work with Open Transport file system along with the old system under 7+. :) ============ To the person regarding IDE drives on a Mac 636...

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 12:53 PM 6/25/98 PDT, Max Eskin wrote: > >Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of >ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. Yuck. You don't know me very well, do you? :-) I'm going to send out the classiccmp libertarian goon squad, who will persuade you to think otherwise. (Non-violently, of course.) It's capitalism and lust for money, power, and members of an attractive gender orientation that drives any sort of start-up, including Commodore and Amiga Corp. Care to name some cool technology that wasn't driven by capitalism? - John

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by PB14＠leicester.ac.uk

On 25 Jun 98 at 5:43, John Higginbotham wrote: > >Mac IIx - 68030? > >Mac IIfx > >Mac IIvx (iirc) You've missed out the IIvi as well. For information about Mac specs, there's a great free utility called GURU from Newer Technology at http://www.newertech.com > I'm not sure about the IIvx either, but I do have a Mac IIx sitting here. > Main difference was just a little boost on the proc speed over the Mac II. The Mac II is a fairly lame 68020 system (no fpu, no pmmu) while the IIX (same as IIcx but different form) is a very usable 68030. > Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm > talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected > jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) Yes/No. Size can be a problem. Older cards were often full size and won't fit in a IIsi or later system. Hi res graphics cards from people like SuperMac, Radius, RasterOps etc were always temperamental and are often reliant on OS versions and card ROMs. It is unlikely for example that a graphics card from a 68030 would work in a NuBus equipped PowerMac. Lots of people ditched quite expensive graphics cards because the manufacturers demand(ed) so much for ROM upgrades. Accelerator cards, which tend to be full size, can cause timing problems (eg Radius Rocket which is incompatible with AROSE, the system software that arbitrates between NuBus slots!). Ethernet cards would be a safe bet but the rarer stuff (GPIB, video image grabbers etc) would guarantee interesting times... Phil ************************************************************** Phil Beesley -- Computer Officer -- Distributed Systems Suppport University of Leicester Tel (0)116 252-2231 E-Mail pb14(a)le.ac.uk

27 years, 10 months

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Convergent Miscellany

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> R. Stricklin (kjaeros) wrote: > > > > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Jeff Kaneko wrote: > > > > > OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who > > > does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? > > > > I think it belongs to Unisys. They own the trademark, anyway (through > > their acquisition of Convergent). > > That is the legal situation. I know where I last _saw_ a copy of the > source for version 3.51 for the Unix PC (and a copy of the source for > what would have been next, equivalent to SysVR3) , never made it to > SQA), but I haven't been able to contact him in a couple of years of ^^^ What's his name? Where does he live? We can try 4-11. > trying. (CTIX for the regular machines _did_ reach SysVR3 in > production, but that was after the Unix PC was history). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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macintoshes, part ][

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Ive got a IIcx that ive tricked out with 5meg, mono display, two external drives, syquest 44 meg drive and the apple cd300 drive and a radius rocket accelerator with 8 meg. unfortunately, the rocket accelerator locks up the machine on the second reboot. disabling it lets the mac work at original speed. can anyone provide suggestions? the rocket seems to be temperamental, >from what i can see. david

27 years, 10 months

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unsubscribe classiccmp

by wpe＠interserv.com

Off to Montreal for a week.. Figured I'd temporarily un-subscribe for that period, so SPRYNET doesn't get uptight about the size of my mailbox.... I should be back around 4 July..... Will

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwater areas Wa

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:11 AM 6/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Robotron is also a video game ca. 1981-2 (Williams, iirc) that was [...] >>each other. Other, similar games included Sinistar (no relation, and don't >>even go there) and one whose name I forgot that had to do with spiders and >What do you mean, there's no relation? They are both William's titles...and Whups... Sorry. I occassionally get sensitive about my last name, and when I was younger, I was the butt of a lot of jokes centered around my name and that game. (Sinasohn, Sinistar.) >Sinistar is the addition of 2 SRAMs, a different interface board (for dual >joysticks), blitter clipper circuit and an additional sound board for Robotron also had dual joysticks, so perhaps that was the same on both games? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Coco Question

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Also, does anyone know what happened to Roger Merchberger? Seems to have >disappeared. You can find him on the M100 mailing list. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon

27 years, 10 months

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The Beatles

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I just found a discarded Packard Bell 486 (I almost left it because the case looked like a 286's). I don't know why you all dislike those things so much, this case is very good. Anyway, when the machine boots, the ROM displays a "Packard Bell" graphic, complete with a 3-second fade-in (if only people paid so much attention to _useful_ stuff). Underneath, it displays, "America grew up listening to us. It still does." Now, this is my question. What does this mean? When was this company founded, and what was their original product? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Last two days of ClassicCmp anyone?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

I got unsubscribed from ClassicCmp somehow. Can someone forward me the last two days worth or tell me where I can get it? Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 10 months

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EPROM programmers available

by rcini＠email.msn.com

FYI, this guy has some multiple-gang EPROM programmers available. Contact him directly (Mikeooo1(a)aol.com). <PASTE> The Gangpro S I have will enable you to burn up to 32 chips at a time and covers hundreds of device types.Its features are way too numerous to go into but its replacement is selling for over $6000.I am looking for $300 for it.The Gangpro8 will do 8 at a time and covers most device types also. It is self contained where as the "S" can hook up thru a 232 cable with a PC. The one you'll probably be most interested in is an EP-2A-88 by Optimal Technolgy which requires a "personality module" for the eprom type you wish to program and will program 4 at a time. I have such modules for 2716's and 2532's only.I am looking for $45 for that one. </PASTE> Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com> - ClubWin! Charter Member - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Preserver of "classic" computers <<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>

27 years, 10 months

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Zuse

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if >>>the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? >>It's main use was calculating ballistics tables for artillery. If >>anyone really cares, I could explain it in detail - but it's pretty >>boring stuff. > For one thing, why is it generally considered to be the first computer? Maybe a very simple thing - since after the war ther was only the Brit/US developents known to the (Brit/US) Scientists, they just didn't know (like von Neuman is always credited for the idea of a seperation of memory and CPU - but in fact Zuse had published this idea 7 years earlyer). It's a bit like one woman, in Florida, asked me around 1992 if I'm from West Germany, East Germany or new Germany *rotfl* Missing information. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Mark 8 pc boards

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

At 11:04 AM 6/25/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: > >> <I've also learned that the printed circuit boards were 2-sided, but had n >> <plated-thru holes. This may have caused problems to IC solder connections >> <making reliability problems. I don't know if this would make buyers aband >> <them making the numbers larger or smaller than otherwise. >> >> Not a problem. The trick was to solder both sides ot use through wires >> as needed. It made the board much cheaper and buildable by home brewers. > >And that approach is cheaper and easier than the tubular rivet that >preceded plated through holes - if you could even find such today :) > Yes, using wires as jumpers is good too. I'm amazed in TV sets, stereos, etc. most all the printed circuit boards are one sided. The problem I saw was with the actual IC pins. Sockets would make it worse. If you don't plan ahead, there might be not enough lead to solder to on the component side of some disk capacitors (resistors mounted on end?), etc. -Dave

27 years, 10 months

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Mark 8 pc boards

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I've also learned that the printed circuit boards were 2-sided, but had n <plated-thru holes. This may have caused problems to IC solder connections <making reliability problems. I don't know if this would make buyers aband <them making the numbers larger or smaller than otherwise. Not a problem. The trick was to solder both sides ot use through wires as needed. It made the board much cheaper and buildable by home brewers. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Zuse

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? Also, has anyone seen any kind of in-depth description of either? I mean, what exactly could the ENIAC do? Has anyone seen diagrams? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Zuse

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>>Since we were recently discussing the first computer, I wondered, if >>the Zuse was "first", then what is the ENIAC famous for? > >It's main use was calculating ballistics tables for artillery. If >anyone really cares, I could explain it in detail - but it's pretty >boring stuff. For one thing, why is it generally considered to be the first computer? Secondly, what kind of calculation did this involve? Was it a table in the computer or did it involve an equation? What order equation? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Old computer books

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>The problem in my mind was that there was no guiding thread, no >hook", no core story, no moral or lesson - just fumbling computer >companies, insane investors, inept marketroids, crazy genius types, >etc. Is this interesting enough, or just interesting to Amiga-heads? The former. I can read commodore anecdotes for hours and never get tired. One of my favorites is that they drilled circuit boards (some early machine) to prevent people from putting their own upgrade chips in (rather than have the dealer do it), and it cost them more to do this than the cost of the actual chip. I mean, there does have to be some tie-together, but it's always there if one has a lot of information. Here's one: Capitalism, the abode of stupidity, is the crematorium of ingenuity and creativity. Just off the top of my head. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Why are folks scrounging on this list for blank 8" floppies when they a <> readily available by mail order? < <I'd guess lack of information and price, Tim. < < - don I'm as baffled as you two as if I ship disks I'm going to charge $5 just so I have shipping covered for a box of about 10. After all of I have a handful of people doing a send me some it could very likely incur some serious $$$ in shipping. No real bargan there. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>The 512K uses an older mouse that is internally compatible with a PC bus >mouse or an Amiga mouse, just one button. I do not know the pinout of >the Mac, but it should be a trivial exercise to build a pin swabber. You Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? Please pardon a really naive Mac user (this is my first use of a Mac, and I'm not impressed so far), and I'm trying to get this thing working for my partner's pre-school class. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

I would honestly LOVE to visit that web site, but my proxy denies fulfilling the request. Like it's got sensitive info. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 7:40 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... >kroma <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch >>> >>>OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > >At 06:06 PM 6/25/98 +0300, Hotze wrote: >>Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? > >Well, even I laughed. Ken's not dead, though. He's at ><http://www.electriciti.com/~bowlesk>. > >- John >Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> >

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My <> CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals <> both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple < <I'm not talking about converting - I'm talking that in 25 years <still new drives will be available to read CDs - Maybe some kind <of hyper-DVD-super-ultra drives - but able to read 'regular' CDs. That may be longer than reasonable... I'd use say writable CDrom and if 9 years from now the ability to read that start getting scarce I'd use the next technology that is current then and copy to that. This would allow reading using available technology and also insure the data was fresh. FYI: checksums and various other means can be used to insure a file has not been compromized and also make recovery possible. < <> Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of <> course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music <> formats do go out of production as well. Some do some don't and a few are easy to make. a player for 78rpm disks would be pretty trivial. Certain tape formats are fairly easy like 800/1600 bpi magtape. <shure ther will - I bet any money you want - or wait - I what <about my Pascal Microengine ? You'll get it if there is no new, <working, CD reading device availabe in 2023 :) It is necessary to look at the entire archival picture. copies of the eproms/roms PALs are only a peice, spares to reproduce them and the tools needed to insert code are also required. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several hundred floppies. Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can be packed in plastic disk boxes. If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> Now, I've found 9tack tape to be _very_ reliable, second only to paper > tape. Certainly a lot more reliable than EPROMs, PROMs, etc. If kept in proper environment. >> I had even new taps failing to record. > Good, branded tapes, or just random cheap ones? Branded - a pcs at 140 USD. > The other thing is, nobody has said that you only keep one backup, right? :) > Keep the original EPROM, in use, and hope you don't need a backup Shure thats why I have them - Backup isn't the bussines it's the tool. > Keep a copy on your PC's hard disk, for looking at, and for burning an > EPROM from if your screwdriver slips and applies 12V to the Vcc pin of > the EPROM... I still use an 8085 systems for the EPROM thing :) > Keep a copy on floppy disk or PC streamer tape, just in case you delete > the wrong file > Keep a copy on paper tape in case all else fails. > And keep a copy on CD-R, 9-track, Zip, etc. Whatever else you can store > it on. The more copies you have, the more likely one will be readable in > the future. :) >>>> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >>>> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >>> Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes >>> (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real >>> problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect >>> it'll be OK. >> Managed to play and recovering all information are >> different things. > Yes, but > (a) you'd use a partially redundant encoding system (I _know_ I > would) so you could recover partially damaged data. > (b) 'damage' that affects audio or video recordings may not have much > effect on data (and vice versa). For example minor print-through would > certainly be audible, but it might be possible to set the read thresholds > so a digital tape drive wouldn't notice it. Ditto for fading. On the > other hand drop-outs have a much greater effect on digital data than on > audio or video recordings. true. >> And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): >> Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things >> and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that >> there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read >> a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). > Firstly a CD player is not that easy to convert into a CD-ROM drive. My > CD-ROM drive _is_ based on a CD-player, and I have the service manuals > both for the CD-ROM drive and the player. The mods are not that simple. I'm not talking about converting - I'm talking that in 25 years still new drives will be available to read CDs - Maybe some kind of hyper-DVD-super-ultra drives - but able to read 'regular' CDs. > Secondly, where do I get a 78rpm record player these days (new, of > course). Or a Playtape player. Or an 8-track cartridge player. Music > formats do go out of production as well. Stop. 8-track - or what ever special formates beside regular phonographic disks had always only a special small ocurence - like ZIP drives, or almost any old media on computers beside mybe tapes. For 78rpm players you should take a look at a shop for analogue enthusiasts - there are still _new_ players available - ok, I don't know if they sell more than 100 pcs a year word wide, but they are available - and for 33/45rpm players, almost any audio store still has at least one _new_ model to offer. Even Quelle (big mail order company in Germany) still offers players. And now it's almost 20 years after the CD. Again, I give no chance for special devices and solution, but I think there will be new CD Players even in 25 years - I am shure ther will - I bet any money you want - or wait - I what about my Pascal Microengine ? You'll get it if there is no new, working, CD reading device availabe in 2023 :) Servus hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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[Fwd: Re: CoCo III at garage sale...]

by poesie＠geocities.com

An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 2025 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19980625/c2d3c0c2/at…

27 years, 10 months

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Early speech board maker?

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<Cool Stuff about the history of computer speech SNIPPED> > A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big > way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech > synthesis, a > process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better > than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of > that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having > talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most > expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile > -- and > people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly > irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and > away, > was to have the speech generator deleted. > > Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three > years, 1979-1982. /NOSTALGIA = ON Wow, this brings back a funny (well to me, anyway) memory. In 1983, I used to service two way mobile radios for a Motorola Service Center in Los Angeles. Typically, the customer would bring in his car, explain the problem, and then wait in the lounge whil I worked on it. One day, this guy comes in with this big, shiny new luxury car (well, maybe it was a Buick? Chrysler? anyway . .), with a broken two-way. I'm sitting next to him in the front seat, and he's trying to explain the trouble. The whole time, the car is saying <<The key is in the IGNITION>>, <<The key is in the IGNITION>> . . . in a decidedly mechanical pseudo-woman's voice. The guy gets pissed, and angrily jerks the key out of the ignition (shutting up the robot), and continues to tell me how he can't talk to his dispatcher . . . An hour goes by, and I replace a bad antenna and feed line, and clamp down the BIG +12v lead, and so on. I start the engine, the radio works ok, so I kill it, and head for the lounge where the customer is waiting. We step outside, I explain the work I did, and he signs the invoice. As he turns towards the car, he asks me where are his keys. Using the best mechanical voice I could muster I replied: <<The key is in the IGNITION>>, <<The key is in the IGNITION>> . . . /NOSTALGIA = OFF Well, it was funny at the time. You really had to have been there . . . Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 25, 2:12, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas I don't have Inside Macintosh, and the old volumes seem to be out of > print. From what I rember, the keyboard sources the clock signal, and the > data line is bidirectional. The Mac starts a transmission by pulling the > data line low and releasing it, or something, doesn't it? That's right. > As to what the actual bytes mean, well, I've not hacked it yet. Looks like I need a trip to the photocopier again :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 02:34 PM 6/23/98 PDT, you wrote: >A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. >Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two >hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM Actually, room for 2 floppies and 1 hard drive, either 3.5" or 5.25" half-height. (I suppose, if you were really creative, you could mount a 3.5" hd where the second floppy went, but you might have power problems.) Drives were mounted on a metal platform above the HD. Had 8 30-pin SIMM slots; not sure what (if any) the max RAM was. Standard was probably 4Meg. >Other models in this series were: Mac IIx - 68030? Mac IIfx Mac IIvx (iirc) All shared the larger, almost pc-like box. Pop-off top to the case, making it easy to get inside, but you needed a special bracket to mount the hard drive on (which then was mounted to the platform.) >Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three >slots, video on the board Probably my favorite Mac case. Similar but different. About 2/3 the width of the II. Drives are now stacked, with the Hard Drive simply snapping into the case (once you put it in its custom carrier.) Memory is easy to get at, still had 3 expansion slots. 68030 at 33mhz, on-board video. IIcx used the same case (same, but no video, maybe slower CPU?) >Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case Slimmer case, slightly slower than the IIci (20mhz?). Similar to the LC models. One non-nubus slot; adapters were available. >>place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet If anyone's interested, I'll be bringing some mac II cases (with M/B & P/S, but won't boot (prolly dead battery)) to VCF 2.0 to sell or trade. They're machines that I got for Rachel's classroom, that I scrounged for parts. She's getting tired of having a stack of mac's in her basement all the time. (And if I get rid of those, plus some huge monitors she can't use, she can store the computers from school at her place over the summer instead of at my place.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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IBM RS6000 for sale

by peacock＠simconv.com

> I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? $4,000 O.B.O. Or you can just wait until someone gives you an first generation RS/6000... > At work we have an old RS/6000 320H (25Mhz, 1st generation) sitting in a corner, not used anymore as all our customers have replaced AIX with SCO on a P II. Boss asked me last week if we could do something with it, now I have an answer.... store it for a few more years then sell it as a collectible classic, maybe we'll get more for it than we paid new. :) Jack Peacock

27 years, 10 months

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CoCo III at garage sale...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:16 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >> Woah, what's that all about? Something along the lines of "In a dark >> future, a lone boy with the power of his trusty TANDY COCO saves the >> galaxy from domination by the evil Q'OMMADOR Empire"? :) Probably interactive fiction ala Zork etc. (Or possibly the kind where you read a page, then at the bottom it says "If you try to negotiate with the Q'Ommador Mneflug, turn to page 138. If you try to kill the Mneflug with your Quoxicalt, turn to page 47. If you turn and run while waving your appendages wildly, turn to page 302.") --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 09:42 PM 6/24/98 -0400, you wrote: >'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work DE-9 connector? Won't work with the classic. Ya need on with a round, 4-pin connector, about the size of a PS/2 keyboard connector. >BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley >disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with >a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the >'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. So far so good. Sounds like the machine works. >This remains this way for as much as 10 >minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not Not normal at all. Most likely, you have a drive with a missing or incomplete operating system on it. Your best bet is to find a local Mac user group (or friendly mac user) and get them to make a copy of the OS disks (v. 7.0 or 6.0.8). You can then boot from those disks and reinstall the OS. >allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to >an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of >memory). The Mac should do about the same, again depending on the amount of memory and the number of plug-ins it loads. >one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced >by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... Debugger. Dunno any more than that, I'm an applications programmer. 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Pet 2001

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

Got a call from a woman with a Pet 2001 here in the bay area (east bay, actually) plus some sloppy drives and such. Please give her a call if you're interested. Her name is Asale Kimaada (Pronounced Uh-saw-luh Kih-mah-duh) and her phone is 1-925-606-7239. She's looking for an honest offer. She doesn't know what it's worth, (neither do I) but doesn't want to be cheated. She apparently gets a lot of older stuff in, so being fair would be good in the long run. btw, she was at last year's VCF; she was near the exhibits on the left side (looking towards the exhibits) iirc. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Xerox Daybreak

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:32 PM 6/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >I don't suppose that anyone (Xerox?) taped this presentation did they? I know I >would love to see the demo and wouldn't mind paying to get a copy. The guard I talked to said tapes would be available for $50/copy. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Xerox Daybreak

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:07 AM 6/24/98 -0700, you wrote: >The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to >overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a When we got there, the guard was (rather ineffectively) trying to turn people away. We slipped past after I mumbled something about trying to find some friends. The guard said the demo was originally scheduled for a room that could handle 100 people. His estimate was that there was at least 700 people there, but I don't think he was counting the cafeteria in that estimate. >Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried [...] > and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap > dancing lessons collide. Oh, sure, make me sound like a complete weirdo. (Yes, I know it's true, but you don't have to tell everybody. 8^) Btw, tap class is Fridays at 7, so Thursdays are good. >(c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to > argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, > 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about Can't guarantee I'll be there, but it sounds good in theory. btw, Bruce Lane (iirc -- I'm lousy at names and don't pay too much attention to headers & .sigs anyway) will be in town (SF) soon, if y'all wanna try and coordinate something. (Also a visit to HMR is in order.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by photze＠batelco.com.bh

Ha. You think that you're funny, don't you? At my ex-school, I fount 30(!) Apple ][GS's, a ][C, A WHOLE BUNCH of books, around 250 disks, lots of lab interface software, Grapler interfaces, etc. Pretty cool. Tim D. Hotze -----Original Message----- From: kroma <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, June 25, 1998 1:59 PM Subject: Re: Loss of early UCSD P-System materials... > >>>Subject: UCSD Pascal >>> >>>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>>around here and see if there's anything left. >> > > > >OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!! > > >

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the >smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes >light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds >and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this >way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this >normal? Definitely not. Try starting with extensions off (hold down the shift key up until it shows that screen). Normal boot on a Classic should be under a minute. >Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one >apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on >PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go >away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) >but with a '>' sign... > >What is this? > You're right about the salute, the second one is a debug button. The > sign is a prompt, at which you can look at memory and stuff. Typing 'G FIND' will jump to the finder if it is running, which it isn't yet on your system. The finder is a shell like command.com. It is completely modular and can be replaced by another program, though not common. BTW, how much did you pay for it? > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | >| Digital Equipment Corporation | | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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IBM RS6000 for sale

by transit＠primenet.com

I found this on another list I'm on. Is this of any interest to anyone here? (If so, please contact the original poster directly. Thanks) ----------------begin forwarded message--------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:39:03 -0700 From: Nathan Schwartz <nathan(a)apl.acsc.net> To: Multiple recipients of list <web4lib(a)library.berkeley.edu> Subject: RS6000 IBM RS6000 for sale http://www.acsc.net/apl/rs6000.htm The Anderson Public Library has an RS6000 that we are interested in selling. This system was purchased from Dynix Library Services in 1991 and has the following features. RS6000 RISC 520/20 processor, AIX 3.3, 2.4Gigs on four drives, 128Meg RAM, 2-64 port controllers, 2.3Gig 8mm Tape, 150MB 1/4 tape, Ethernet High Performance LAN Adapter, IBM Printer 4224, Emerson UPS AP130sb, Muxes, cables and documentation. $4,000 O.B.O. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Charles P. Hobbs __ __ ____ ___ ___ ____ transit(a)primenet.com /__)/__) / / / / /_ /\ / /_ / / / \ / / / / /__ / \/ /___ / -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>>It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... >>But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >>nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >>about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >>museum, then where? > The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the > terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the > mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer > magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum > is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible > to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they > are a visual compendium). Hmm I think you should come to Munich and visit the Deutsches Museum. A slow walk thru the chemical section (for example) could tell you the same story than a book, but you will also _see_ whats hapening when two chemicals mix up. You still have to read - there is plenty of text ro read - sometimes the equivalent of 5 or 6 book pages only for one show case, and ar far as I remember the chemical section has more than 100 of this hands on cases. Shure, tunning thru and press every butten wont result in any information - but just browsing thru a chemical book either. > BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very > good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also > educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all > are, I hope) why not just write a book? :) - Hereby I oder one copy. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by franke＠sbs.de

> >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb > for > >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, > Offtopic by about 10 years: > We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. > I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. > It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would > have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. Apple is just doing this step in a far better direction: They change to USB (at least thats what they told us at WWDC) and the iMac is the first to excange ADB for USB. Not using PS/2 wasn't so bad at all - ADB is a lot more convienient since I connect the mouse to the kbd nut the cpu. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by kroma＠worldnet.att.net

>>Subject: UCSD Pascal >> >>Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >>out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >>old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >>around here and see if there's anything left. > OH MY GOD, THEY KILLED KENNY!!! YOU BASTARDS!!!

27 years, 10 months

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macs and IDE drives...

by franke＠sbs.de

> this isn't really "classic" per se, but... It's the classic Mac-IDE question. And the answer is simple no. > I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i > ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the > mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as > master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in > the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a > total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or > is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be > gratefully appreciated. thanks. Yes_and_no to all questions. It's just that Apple only suports one _one_ IDE drive. Almost any drive work correctly, but you need third party setup software like HDT. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 12:35 AM 6/25/98 -0500, Uncle Roger wrote: >Mac IIx - 68030? >Mac IIfx >Mac IIvx (iirc) I'm not sure about the IIvx either, but I do have a Mac IIx sitting here. Main difference was just a little boost on the proc speed over the Mac II. Question: Will any nubus card work in any mac with a nubus slot? (I'm talking standard form, one piece card, not the little two piece connected jobbies found on the SI/LC etc.) - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by higginbo＠netpath.net

At 10:54 PM 6/24/98 EDT, SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com wrote: >there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for >se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, Offtopic by about 10 years: We just got in a Motorola 603e StarMax mac clone a few months ago at work. I loved this machine! It had both ADB connectors AND PS/2 style connectors. It also had a standard DB25 serial port connector on it. IMHO, this would have been a good step for Apple to make say about 5 or 6 years ago. - - john higginbotham ____________________________ - webmaster www.pntprinting.com - - limbo limbo.netpath.net -

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

there are only two kinds of mac mouses: 9 pin for plus and earlier and adb for se and later models. i've never heard of anything else. as for slow booting, you might want to run disk first aid if you have it on your machine. i think you need to boot off a floppy and run it from there for it to check and fix any problems it finds. those two buttons you found is the programmer's switch. one does a reboot and the other brings you to a system monitor prompt. supposedly useful for those that know what to do. david In a message dated 98-06-24 21:43:32 EDT, megan writes: << Speaking of Mac Mice... At the MIT Flea this past weekend, I picked up a mouse for the Mac Classic I mentioned in other mail... it is the 'original' style of apple mouse. My question is whether this will work correctly with the Mac Classic -- it does seem to plug in, but since I'm not getting much response from the system, I don't know... BTW - another question -- when the Mac Classic boots, it shows the smiley disk and I hear the internal HD working. The screen goes light grey with a pointer on it. This is displayed for a few seconds and then I get the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen. This remains this way for as much as 10 minutes (I didn't wait longer). Is this normal? Have I simply not allowed the system adequate time to boot to a user screen? (I'm used to an RT system which boots in about 30-45 seconds, depending on amount of memory). Also, there are two buttons on the left side of the case... one apparently does the mac equivalent of the three-fingered-salute on PCs... the other one causes the 'Welcome to Macintosh' screen to go away and be replaced by one which lookes the same (banner background) but with a '>' sign... What is this? >>

27 years, 10 months

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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 02:40 PM 6/23/98 -0700, you wrote: >about it. But we invest time and money and passion into this hobby, and I >don't think its wrong to take advantage of a good deal when one comes In the long run, it probably offsets the times we spend more than we should to make sure something important isn't destroyed (including paying for storage units, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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new additions, info wanted

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 10:43 PM 6/22/98 -0500, you wrote: >I'll trade it for an Altair and an Apple 1 and most importantly, one of those rare >black AppleIIplus's. Oh sure, I gots lots of those... 8^) >What the heck is a FlatCat (uh oh, me thinks I just set myself up here). Laptop version of the Cat. >It doesn't have cursor keys, or a pointing device. It uses these two 'leap' keys Yeah, that's it. Pretty cool. >Let me know when you get the Apple 1 and I'll dig the Cat out and send it to >you :) Ummm,, you don't mind if there's a little bit of white-out spilled next to where it says "Apple ]" do you? 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 10 months

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NeXT cubes or slabs.

by gim＠hitec-uk.com

Who do I have to kill? Are they so black you can see your reflection in them? :) Grant.. Software Engineer, Hitec Aberdeen. Kevan Heydon <kevan(a)heydon.org> on 06/26/98 04:47:49 PM Please respond to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> cc: Subject: Re: NeXT cubes or slabs. Speaking of NeXTs, I have just got a lead on some available in the UK. The mail I got is: Unconfirmed reports are that I may be able to lay my hands on, like, TWENTY NeXT slabs for the princely sum of 70 quid each. My mind immediately turns to CamNet and the denizens within as sinks for such wonderful but antique hardware. Note that if you want a 17" colour monitor, then that is at the ultimate ripoff price of another 60 quid. Both figures EXCLUDE VAT at the usual rate, apparently. Machine specs are: TurboColour NeXTStation. 68040/33 / 32MB / 500MB SCSI + Keyboard + Mouse + Soundbox. (as black as, like, the blackest thing - none more black) (1138x932@12bit) Monitors: NeXT MegaPixel Colour Monitors (Black cool case) 17" @ 60 quid 21" @ 150 quid If you are interested then drop me an email and I will coordinate things with the person I got this email from. -- Kevan Old Computer Collector: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/

27 years, 10 months

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Mark 8 pc boards

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Today I found the company, Techniques, Inc. in Englewood, New Jersey, that made the printed circuit boards for the "Radio Electronics" Mark 8 computer. They are in the same location as in 1973. Afaik, they have no web site or email. I called them to ask if they could look for any material, or any information, like how many board sets were made or sold. I found nothing. They first thought that "Mark 8 microcomputer" was the name of another company. I finally found someone who said the company was bought in 1987, and that all information before then was gone. I've also learned that the printed circuit boards were 2-sided, but had no plated-thru holes. This may have caused problems to IC solder connections, making reliability problems. I don't know if this would make buyers abandon them making the numbers larger or smaller than otherwise. -Dave

27 years, 10 months

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macs and IDE drives...

by poesie＠geocities.com

this isn't really "classic" per se, but... I grabbed a performa 636cd, w/ a 500mb ide drive. being curious i ripped out the 1-connector ide cable and connected a 2-connector; the mac ide quantum (which specifically says "apple" on it...) was set as master, and i popped a seagate on as a slave. no boot unless i popped in the mac disk tools. if i take off the 2nd ide drive, it boots. being a total mac idiot, is it even possible to use a ATA ide drive on a mac? or is there something else to this that i'm missing? any help would be gratefully appreciated. thanks. -Eric

27 years, 10 months

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Early speech board maker?

by fmc＠reanimators.org

John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: > Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. > Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? > From: Wirt Atmar <WirtAtmar(a)AOL.COM> Yes. Your next step on the road to enlightenment is to webulate to http://www.aics-research.com/history.html and follow the next-page links through to the end. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

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CoCo III at garage sale...

by poesie＠geocities.com

Found this on usenet, don't know if any of you like that CoCO stuff. just thought i'd pass it along. please reply to him directly. -Eric ><osc1(a)isd.net> > Tandy CoCo sets. One is a box of rare CoCo stuff: books (fiction books > CoCo based, how-to program books, manuals, catalogs etc), connectors (I > don't even recall what half of them are), lots of cartridges (games, > etc), all fairly rare and cool. The other set is a CoCo III, with a > couple of joysticks, and five could game carts... a mini TV included! > Each set is $20. > > > Thanks, > Carty Fox > St. Paul, MN <osc1(a)isd.net>

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >> be backed up. > > Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, > althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write > anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). > > So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try > to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > This sould be reliable, since it is human readable > (Like old magnetic tapes). Paper tape, of course! There is an action on me from this list last year (I think) to investigate the possibility of Tyvek tapes. I still intend to do it, but I don't know when! Philip.

27 years, 10 months

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ID select on scsi disks

by mbg＠world.std.com

This past weekend, I picked up a few cases for SCSI disks... they have a device on the back panel which allows one to select the SCSI id by just pushing one of two buttons until the proper ID shows... I've used a VOM to figure out which wires from this thing are what, but the connector it same with is not compatible with the (as far as I can tell) standard of three sets of jumper-width pins. I'd like to button this thing up so I don't have to open it again (except to replace a bad disk) but can't find anything which fits the spacing of these pins... For those for whom this info would be useful in telling the spacing, the disks are RZ35s (from DEC). I don't know who actually produces them. Any help appreciated... My next plan is to try one of the inter-board connectors (one board has a socket and one has pins)... the socket connector seems to have proper spacing, but I've yet to actualy try it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry(a)zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg(a)world.std.com | | Digital Equipment Corporation | | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

2
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Loss of early UCSD P-System materials...

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Here's an excerpt of an e-mail I received recently from an admin at the UCSD computing center, where the UCSD P-System was developed. Ken Bowles was one of the primary forces behind the P-System, and wrote an early popular Pascal text. - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> >Subject: UCSD Pascal > >Damn! I wish I'd known about your museum - last summer I helped clean >out the lab that had been Ken Bowles and we found a bunch of 8-inch stuff, >old tapes, etc. which were trashed because no one wanted them. I'll look >around here and see if there's anything left.

27 years, 10 months

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Early speech board maker?

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Here's an excerpt of a posting that triggered my IMSAI smart agent. Does anyone recognize his name, or the company he's describing? - John Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm> Subject: Re: WRQ's @Guard From: Wirt Atmar <WirtAtmar(a)AOL.COM> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:07:56 EDT Message-ID: <3dda660e.358c088e(a)aol.com> Mailing List: HP3000-L(a)utcvm.utc.edu .... Just because something is possible doesn't mean that anybody's gonna want it. The very first business that AICS was involved in was computer-based speech synthesis. Indeed, that's where our name comes from (AICS = artificially intelligent cybernetic systems). The company grew out of something that had previously been just a hobby of mine -- and a potential dissertation project for graduate school: completely host-based speed synthesis, de novo, where an electrical analog of the human vocal tract was commanded to truly synthesize new speech rather than simply play back digitized human speech. In 1976, when I finished school and the company was formed, we actually made a lot of money surprisingly easily and surprising quickly selling speech synthesizers as drop-in boards for Altair and IMSAI microcomputers. That was a time you could sell anybody anything. Every conference was a feeding frenzy of buying. You threw something up in the air and ten people wanted it. In 1976 also, when I became a professor at our local university, several students also continued on with the speech synthesis work. Vickie Kurtz, a person who you actually sort of know because she is more or less single- handedly putting together QCTerm now, did her master's work with me then. For her thesis, Vickie put together the best vowel synthesizer that I ever heard, using voltage-controlled oscillators, controlled by a simple rom-based finite state automaton so as to simulate the mechanical inertias found in the vocal tract. Although her synthesizer didn't have any sort of noise generator in it, so it couldn't form the fricatives (hiss-like sounds) necessary for full speech synthesis, its vowels were the most human-like I've ever heard and were essentially indistinguishable from a baby's babbling or cat-like animal. Vickie finished in 1982. A year or two earlier, Texas Instruments got into speech synthesis in a big way using a technique halfway between digitized speech and speech synthesis, a process that might now be called "smoothed sampling". It worked much better than true synthesis in that its intelligiblity was quite good. Because of that, TI was able to sell a variety of manufacturers on the idea of having talking washing machines, microwave ovens, vaccuum cleaners, etc. The most expensive of these talking machines was the Chrysler LeBaron automobile -- and people (the end-users, not the engineers) found all of this incredibly irritating. The single most requested option on the LeBaron, by far and away, was to have the speech generator deleted. Talking appliances were a technological fad that lasted only about three years, 1979-1982. ... Wirt Atmar

27 years, 10 months

1
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Xerox Daybreak

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Doug Yowza wrote: > > IIRC, the Star had both a custom microcoded CPU and had an 8080 (or 8085) > > to handle I/O. > > I believe 8080 is correct (remember, the design was started in the 1975 > timeframe, but did extend into 1981 when it was released). The 8085 is > circa 1976. Why didn't I take better notes!? ;) Yeah, me too. But this is where I stopped: it was an 8085. ... The Star presentation was certainly well attended -- it was packed to overflowing! I was out in the lobby watching the presentation on a monitor, and apparently there were other folks watching other monitors in the cafeteria. Anyway, that is why I gave up on notes -- couldn't concentrate on the palmtop keyboard and the monitor at the same time. Afterward a bunch of us did get together outside the auditorium lobby, Uncle Roger tried to make me hold up a classiccmp sign, I tried waving my appendages a bit whenever I saw someone I recognized, and somehow I think we completely missed Rax. Sorry about that, Rax. I will try to plan better next time. So who was there? Roger Sinasohn, Rachel ? (Uncle Roger's girlfriend -- the schoolteacher who is always on the lookout for Macs), Doug Yowza, Doug Coward, Paul Coad, Sam Ismail, Edwin El-Kareh, and y'r humble narrator. Stuff was swapped, stories were exchanged, we moved to the parking lot, yakked some more, then security came around, someone made the mistake of asking me where to go and I suggested the El Paso Cafe in Mountain View. (Hey, I know *I* can get some good cheap eats there.) Notes: (a) At least some of us seem to want to do this get-together thing again. Of course we did not reach any consensus w/r/t time and date as Roger now wants to check and see whether his tap dancing lessons collide. (b) We need to start earlier, 9:00 PM is late for dinner and the El Paso closes at 10:00. Other places close earlier than that. (c) So...fine, here's a time and place for all us Bay Areans to argue over: Second Thursday, 09 July 1998, 7:00 PM, El Paso Cafe, 1407 W El Camino Real, Mountain View. Y'all can flame me about this in public or private, and I'm still open to change, but I want to announce the real time and place on 30 June. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 05:55 PM 24-06-98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >CD-ROMs have the advantage that they are far more widespread than any of >the above disks ever dreamed to be. They are world standards, as oppossed >to company-specific standards. With the music industry behind them, >CD-ROMs will be around for a long time. Indeed, and with DVD being able to read CDs you'd expect no difficulty in reading CDs for the next 20 years or so. I'd certainly want to be able to listen to my music CDs for that sort of time-span. In fact, with the number of CDs I have, if I listened to a couple a week, it'd take 20 years :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 24, 23:38, Tony Duell wrote: > > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > > > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? Not for the keyboard, it uses 8 data bits with no start/stop/parity bits and a separate clock; XT keyboards use 8 data bits with 2 start bits, 1 make/break bit, and a stop bit; AT/PS2 keyboards use 1 start bit, 8 data bits, 1 parity bit, 1 stop bit. > > null modem enclosure). The keyboard is Mac proprietary. > > Yes, it's _strange_. 4 wires, +5V, Data, Clock, Ground. The mac end uses > the shift register in a 6522, the keyboard end uses a microcontroller > (8021?). Given a keyboard the protocol is probably hackable with a logic > analyser (future project?), Yes, it is an 8021. The protocol is in "Inside Macintosh", Vol. III pp30-32. It's fairly simple, though it's bi-directional. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>It certainly has been (and will continue to be) for me... > >But seriously, since my workshop isn't open to the public, and almost >nobody knows who I am, where should %random_person go to find out >about real front panels, forerunners of Windows, etc. If not a science >museum, then where? >-tony The local public library. Get a comfy chair, sit in front of the terminal, call up lynx, get a hotmail account, and subscribe to the mailing list. Of course, if the library has some back issues of computer magazines or computer history books, those never hurt either ;) A museum is generally considered to be a 'fun place' and though it is possible to learn quite a bit, they can't beat reading a good book (though they are a visual compendium). BTW, the Boston Computer Museum has a very good history section. Books like 'A Secret Guide To Computers' also educate quite a bit. Lastly, since you're so worried about this (we all are, I hope) why not just write a book? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

2
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>>>> be backed up. >>>> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem >>> On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that >>> can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple >>> enough to be repairable... >> Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid >> 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) >> how fast they break... > Paper tapes can be spliced if they break (did I mention I had a splicing > jig and tapes here...). An a good reader shouldn't break the tape anyway. > As an aside, paper tape holes are at 0.1" spacing. You can make a > useable splicing jig by soldering a row of pins to a piece of stripboard > (say at 0.3" spacing), and using those to hold the sprocket track on the > tape. So, what you tellin' me ? I've been in the repair business for these devices some time around 1980 *grin* >>>> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >>>> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >>>> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >>>> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >>> You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... >> Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable >> to humans. Again insecure. > But some 1600bpi drives are _always_ repairable. And the format is > sufficiently well documented that a drive could always be made. Almost, yes, and for the formats also yes - but not the media. I had even new taps failing to record. >>>> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >>>> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >>> Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any >>> other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And >>> if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. >> EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. > I've had EPROMs fail. I've had floppy disks fail. Never had a 9-track > tape fail, though. Never really lost any data because I've had it backed > up... Maybe just our different past - I have seen almost any kind of magnetic media fail but never EPROMS. >> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. > Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes > (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real > problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect > it'll be OK. Managed to play and recovering all information are different things. And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads): Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course). I'm not talking about any specific drive of today - your right - its even dificult to get a custom chip just 2.5 years after the drive. Its about drives that are _able_ to read the backup medias. And for Zip - you're also right - I think, like you, that Zip or syquests will be forgotten in less than 15 years (for _new_ installments). Serus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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New e-mail address

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Sorry for this administrivia, but if anyone cares I posted a new e-mail address a short while ago. Please disregard this address. My primary e-mail address still remains dastar(a)wco.com, and you may also e-mail me at sam(a)siconic.com or though the Vintage Computer Festival web pages (http://www.siconic.com/vcf). Again, sorry for the interruption. Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote: >> <Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem >> <that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, >> <althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write >> <anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). >> Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. > Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to > layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer. Maybe I shoud take some damaged 5,25" disks to the VCF to show the effects of fd aging. It's a real mess when the magnetic surface is tearing down. I have dozends of deffect _mecanical_ disks and already ruined five drives - and it took me about 6 hours (and one damaged head) to clean one and get it back working. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Paper floppy disk

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Below is a description of the "paper floppy disk" as given by an old friend of mine, Dennis Adams <DAdams(a)etcconnect.com>, who once worked on this technology. - John The "Paper Floppy Disk" Newslog International (aka Lab1) developed technology for recording up to 30-50K of data on a printed piece of cardstock approximately 6" x 4". The data was recorded with error detection and correction information (Reed-Soloman, I believe), as well as redundant groups, so it could withstand misprints, marks, holes, and other flaws. This was all pre-CD, and the cost was very cheap. One of the names for them was TDB's for Transportable Databases. They were intended for software distribution, database updates, games on the back of cereal boxes, etc. Each track was a portion of a circle (about 1/10 of the circumference). The reader had a large (approx. 14") spinning wheel, and supported variable track pitch and data bits per inch (so different quality paper and printing processes could be supported), and could track media that was not cut square by skewing the tray that held the media (since there was no physical or optical "center" on the media -- it had a virtual movable "hole" to spin on). It used a Z80 microprocessor (running extremely tweaked assembly language by Al Jewer) and interfaced to a computer via "high-speed" RS-232 (9600 bps). I did demo software on a variety of hosts, including the Storm operating system (multi-user CP/M OS by Ron Fowler, also the author of the popular MEX communications software), Commodore 64, and IBM-PC XT. We had a Coleco Adam computer that we briefly considered writing something for, but it never stayed running long enough to evaluate. We did a multi-month trial of a large database update for a large company based in Moline. We sent out three months of updates to a 13M database. Each update was a half-dozen or so cards that could be scanned in any order and then the update was applied to the database. This was run at three dealerships that could retrieve up-to-date database information much faster than their microfiche system which was always out-of-date. It also displayed additional textual information that was on other microfiche or books and not usually referenced. This was circa 1985, and was quite impressive to the people who used it. So much so that the actual media technology took a back seat to the database system itself (an interesting lesson to be learned there). Newslog / Lab1 ran out of money before the technology could be completely finished and sold or marketed. Not that they didn't try. I learned a lot about "demos" and "demospeak" while I worked there. I still have some media around, but alas no reader. I'm willing to bet it could be read by a modern high-res scanner. An energetic soul could probably even write a reader emulator that fed the bits that it peeled radially from the high-res scan into the actual Z80 reader code to decode it. The best anecdote I recall regarding the technology was in the "camera" software that generated the film original used for duplication: the base unit of measurement was derived from the bits-per-track and camera wheel speed and other factors I've forgotten. All of the internal calculations were based on this "tick", which varied in actual length, but was approximately 1mS. The camera system's author was Bill Whitford, and the unit of measurement henceforth became known as a "willisecond." Bill's code ran on a much larger processor with a lot of memory (I think it might have been a 4Mhz Z80 with 64K of memory), so he development in C.

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

This is roundabout. I work at an ISP. I have to figure out how to work a Macintosh, so as to explain to customers how to set theirs up. This sounds reasonable - so the salesguy produces a Mac SE. Unfortunately, it has no mouse or keyboard. SO I go about looking around. Can't afford $90 for a mouse and keyboard that the only-Mac-shop-in-town has, so I go looking for used stuff. I turn up a Macintosh 512K (Sadly abused. The people KEPT IT IN THE GARAGE SO TI WOULDN'T GIVE THEIR VCR A COMPUTER VIRUS.) Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) More information on either box would be appreciated... -------

27 years, 10 months

5
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Macintoshes...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But a mouse is a mouse, isn't it? I think it is possible to adapt a PC mouse to a mac...not the keyboard, though. There was a site on the net dealing with these things, but I think it might be gone. It would be much easier for the plus, btw, since it doesn't use ADB >Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and >later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 >style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. >id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a >bunch of macs i have myself. > >In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: > ><< Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. > > So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? > Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? > > As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could > spread thru the power lines. :) >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

>>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >>similar things in one space, without any description or system. > The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. > The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains > and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... Big dig ? Oh sorry - did I mix up the name ? >>The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >>proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >>if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special > Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is > well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with > everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less > informative). Thank - I put it on my to-do list. Where is ist located ? Easy to find ? Servus Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Macintoshes...

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and later use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 style mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. id love to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a bunch of macs i have myself. In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write: << Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse. So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine? Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill? As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could spread thru the power lines. :) >>

27 years, 10 months

1
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to >>> be backed up. >> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem > On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that > can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple > enough to be repairable... Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past) how fast they break... >> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed >> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape.... Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable to humans. Again insecure. >> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any > other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And > if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems. EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media. >> (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > All chips fail. Bond-outs break, the chip itself fails, etc. And some > fusible link devices suffer from a problem where the fuses grow back. > I've never seen it myself, but it happens (I've read books on it). And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. >> longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - >> it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or >> 2708 not already needed for an old computer. > Wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that (a) you don't keep the EPROM > you've backed up - or indeed that you don't keep using it, or (b) that > you don't stock up on components now. But in 20 years time, it'll be a > lot easier to repair a <whatever> given a ROM dump - even if you have to > kludge in the latest multi-megabit EPROM - than without it. I'm not interested in the backup, or the content - I just want to have the particular computer, depending on the content of the ROM, running. So the backup is just a tool, but it has to be reliable for long time to reduce backup strategie time. I found EPROMS running well for 20 years in environments where a disk wont survive 1 day. And of course yes, I already have a small component stock including some 'new' EPROMS from 256 Bytes to 64K (2KBit ... 512KBit). Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. >>> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( >> So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? > If I had an Imsai, then yes, I would. The Lisa is a much more interesting > machine to me... :) Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two SIEMENS EMS 5800 class systems (5810 and 5822) - OEM Stars, but I like to add a 'real' one to them. And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

5
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Attache Altair??

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I have made contact with an individual who has <what he describes as an Altair 8800 which is <in an "Attache" case made by Icom in 1976. Would <appreciate any information about this "Attache". <Is it a very desirable thing. Were very many produced, etc? < It has MITS <boards (CPU, IO, disk controller) and power suppy. <He wants to trade it to me for an Imsai 8800. <Would that be a good trade on my part? Bewary as to some people all small airplanes are Piper Cubs! It may not be MITS at all or only some. Calling it an ALTAIR means specifically one of four possible boxes all desktop sized (Altair 8800, the altair 8800B, the 8800B front pannel less version or the Altair680). Interesting. MITS never made a portable or toteable. At first I'd suspected it was an Ontrona Attache. However it's either home brew or someone used mits board and a commercial case. Is the disk controller a two board set (altair) or something else. I ask as the MITS boards were for 8" hard sector only and the likely board used would the single board Icom minifloppy (5.25") controller. Those 8" drives are huge! Find, yes it is. If anything for the altair boards. Good trade for IMSAI 8080, to my feelings no if you want to run it, Yes if you want to try and make money off it. I have an Altair and unless the boards are the 8800B series it's was cranky at best. The IMSAI has a good front pannel as well, important for the older software and systems. Allison

27 years, 10 months

2
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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

> Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the > image or the form as we can change it as needed. No, it's just the other way, if a painting is aging (beside real damage) nobody cares. The 'experts' even praise the quality - the best example is the Sistine Capel - Everybody told us that this dark thing was the intention, but now, after a closer look it reveals tat anything we had seen was aged 'till destruction thru smoke et.al. - after restauration this masterpeace is now rainbow coloured like a NYC garfity. Its the other way - we care about the content, an art galery doesn't care. They just want to have the thing. Especialy since the 'working' condition of an art thing isn't as easy to determinate as of an computer. > Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for > many decades. Only if you dont compare with an unaged copy (almost impossible :) But you could do a test - take a picture digitalize it and them wait 20 years (and keep your digital copy always readabe (I don't think I'll have to mention to preserve the equipment)). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe >similar things in one space, without any description or system. The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons. The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder... >The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without >proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter >if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less informative). >shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') >are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. >Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) >museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Well, it DOES have to make money...but I agree that there is not that much info. e.g. there are many models of liquid fuel rockets, with light-up modules, and so forth, but nowhere is an explanation of how they work. >Gruss >H. > >Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics > (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just > standing senseles without any proper guide ). Didn't see those, don't know. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What about phonographs? Do they last? (gives a new meaning to PROMs...) >And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival. >Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Preserving data is not like preserving a paining, we dont care about the image or the form as we can change it as needed. Magnetic media, even CDrom are viable as they do have a known life that is adaquately long to permit copying to newer media every 10-15 years time. The only other choices that have a better life span do so only if they are carefully handled or more correctly not handled. FYI: punched paper tape; MYLAR is the current long time winner... even then it ages. Eproms, I'd trust the newer devices longer than say the 1702 or 2708 but the industry feels 20 years is about it. Assuming the device doesn't fail from say lead bond failure, metalization cracking, Oxide flaws, electromigration or other failure mechanisms common to chips. I must point out that those failure are nearly as likely as forgetting by 20 years. Since many of those failure modes exist in all ICs even if the eprom is good it's possible everything around could have failed. Photographic film has shown remarkable life, it's a possible media for many decades. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. > They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a > lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often > regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the > usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are > propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The > robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the > model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the > up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just > one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was > kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. The Boston Science Museum is an impressiv thing - or should be. I been there twice. Theoretical they could be a in competition with the Deutsches Museum, but in fact a lot displays look more like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe similar things in one space, without any description or system. The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special shows (like the 'Jurasic Park' exhibition or 'Boston Underground') are made with a huge effort but only a little information to tell. Maybe they are just no longer interestet in a general purpose (*G*) museum and change to a theme park including merchandise ... Gruss H. Btw: They have (had ?) a nice hands on display about mechanics (ropes and levers), made completely from wood (Again just standing senseles without any proper guide ). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star >> like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat. > I thought it would be, but I'd still like one. I'm a serious PERQ-fanatic > - PERQs were the first commerically sold workstations, based on the work > done at PARC, and are not a cheap _anything_. And I've got the Daybreak > and (of course) a Macintosh. So I'd like the missing machine in the line, > but not at the current price. I still like to trade one of my lisas :) >> The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when >> working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side >> are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T. > The hardware is, I think, very different. I would guess the Star was like > a PERQ internally (the Daybreak has a lot of similarities to the PERQ 1). I'm not talking about the Hardware - 'only' about th UI. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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principals in online selling? (was: IMSAI 8080)

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

Okay, since I was the person who started this firestorm of controversy, this is the last I will say about this issue. Let me begin by saying that I did not purchase this IMSAI when I had the opportunity for three reasons: 1. I didn't have $300 2. The machine, though historic, did nothing for me (I'll Explain) 3. I don't (in general) collect Intel. Not being into S-100 (I'm an SS-50 person, myself), the machine had little appeal to me. But I knew that there would be at least a few of you out there on this list who would be interested. So I posted it here, so some of our 'gang' could take a swing at it. The asking price _seemed_ fair, although I personally felt it was a tad high (more than _I_ would pay, anyway). What I figured would happen, some one would call, offer the guy $300, and that would be it. I had _no_ idea that this guy was gonna jack up the price into the stratusphere ($1,000 ? c'mon guys! Where's the enjoyment factor here?) Anyways, this chain of events was definitely _not_ my intention. Of course, the adage: "The road to Hell is paved grandest of good intentions" certainly applies here. I offer my most sincerest apologies for this debacle. Yes, I know, the deed is done, and it looks like a few of you out there have been hurt by this. I'm sorry. Had I known this was gonna happen, I'd a sent the guy to ebay. Further, I don't think I will be offering any more material that may be considered 'Investment Grade' (should I encounter any) in the future, and I would encourage others to do likewise. Private mail is better. If anyone has any gripes/comments, please address them directly to me: jeff.kaneko(a)ifrsys.com And let's give the mailing list back to our hobby, where it belongs. Thank you for your attention . . .. Jeff Kaneko +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > At 02:51 AM 6/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >> For Sale: > >> > >> IMSAI 8080 Microcomputer > >[...] > >> Asking price: $300 > > > >After a round of email bidding, the seller sez: > >> IT SOLD FOR $1000. THAMKS FOR THE RESPONSE. > > > >Somebody recently suggested that it would be better to offer stuff > >directly to readers of this list rather than advertising them via online > >auction. The last IMSAI that sold on eBay went for around $650, I think. > > > >FWIW, > >Doug (still IMSAI-less) > > Well... while it may not improve the price, it may improve the audience... > B^} > > While trying to NOT reignite another flame war (which I probably contribute > to), the qualifier on this idea might be that when you post something, post > it with an acceptable price. IMHO that should not be a difficult > proposition for someone who is looking for a good home for a piece of > equipment. If you are just going to relocate an auction, then you are > probably only in it for the money! (boy, am I gonna get yelled at for THAT > one) > > What really scrapes my oxide is an approach that I am starting to see more > often in postings in and newsgroups. (it has happened to me twice now in > the last month) > > Someone posts an item with an asking price. I respond to the message with > a counter offer. The seller responds with a counter-counter offer that I > find acceptable. I respond to the message with my acceptance and provide > shipping details. The seller then responded back indicating that he has > received a higher offer and that the unit has been sold without so much as > an opportunity for further response. > > Now, maybe it is just me... But from my view when responded with a counter > to my offer, we were in the midst of transacting a deal and I should have > 'right of first refusal' until the point that either we make the deal or I > decide I don't want it. > > I don't appreciate multi-thread dealing going on without being informed. > And it was not like there were any extended delays between these messages. > The entire series of exchanges occurred over less than 24 hours. Very > similar for the second occurrance I mentioned above... > > BTW: a HERO-2000 auction just closed on eBay for $4027.78... (sheesh!) > > -jim (the obviously overly idealistic one...) > > --- > jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com > The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw > Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > > > >

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

HI Allison: ...... It means.... I still can't take some from you.... Err... BTW, if possible, you can give me your full name and the snail address, I will send you a bank draft.... You can ship the discs to me after you received the bank draft, okej? Yours, Ken Yaksa > <May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I > <discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I woul > <pay the shipping... :) > < > <Yours, > <Ken Yaksa > > OK, here's the scoop. > > 1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to. > 2) I'd really rather not ship international > > No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with > free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape. > > 3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number > of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion > which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you > on them. > > 3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel > no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on > earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system > convenient. > > 4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd. > > 5) local pickup prefered. > > > Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

> >So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed > I suggest real CD-ROMs The 'real' ones can be expensive to master . . . > >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some > >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are > >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical > >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then > >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? > >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like > >old magnetic tapes). > > I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a > hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! S.L. = Several millenia > >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ > >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS > >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even > >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - > > What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? ^^^^^^^^^ Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized stat bags, or similar). > That should keep IR out... IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for future generations to puzzle over. Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . <Tongue now removed from cheek> Jeff +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Disclaimer: | | | | These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | | policies or opinions of my employer. | | | +------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 10 months

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Convergent Miscellany

by jeff.kaneko＠ifrsys.com

<Stuff about Convergent Heavy Iron SNIPPED> > Convergent Technologies of San Jose California built a number of Unix > and other platforms, most of which were OEMed by other companies -- > NCR, Burroughs, Sperry, AT&T are the most prevalent. A few years > after Burroughs and Sperry merged into Unisys, they bought Convergent, > so I'm an ex-Unisys person since I got there a year later. Anything > you find running CTOS or CTIX is a Convergent box -- the AT&T Unix PC ^^^^^^^^^^ > ran CTIX, though the name didn't show up on screen. Convergent's ^^^^ OKay, so what happened to the source for CTIX? Did it vanish? Who does it belong to? WHo do you think I belongs to? Just Curious-- Jeff > 68xxx systems included the Miniframe and the Megaframe that later > evolved into the Convergent S-Series and the Unisys 5000 series. > (When I was there I got stuck on the damned U/6000 series, with > bloody Intel CPUs and ISA buses). > -- > Ward Griffiths > They say that politics makes strange bedfellows. > Of course, the main reason they cuddle up is to screw somebody else. > Michael Flynn, _Rogue Star_ > > >

27 years, 10 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Just make sure it's Teflon, or Tyvek based paper (if such things <exist), using some very high-tech ink/toner most modern papers (that <I know of) have a finite shelf-life. Now papryrus-- that's rugged! <S.L. = Several millenia Not a big thing, use a low acid archival paper intended for that use. Also the printing should be done using an impact technology, it puts the ink deeper into the fibers. Ink jet would be good save for the ink stability is unknown, I'd suspect it's good though. Toners are wax resin based and while storage life is good it's not great. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Not really on-topic haiku

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2 See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details! [Last web page update: 06/11/98]

27 years, 10 months

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LCD DIsplay for Allison

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From: Robert Kirk Scott <scottk5(a)ibm.net> <Don't know if this will work for you, but I knew I had seen something <like it somewhere....took a while to track it down. On page 2 of their <online catalog, BGMicro (www.bgmicro.com) has a LM 211 by Hitachi: <480x64 dot pixel display, comes with drivers but no controller, +5v and <-9v supply recommended supply voltages, part no. LCD1008, cost...$3.50. Close but no cookie... the DELL mono/VGA (640x480) LCD came from BG also. The lm211 display is very nice but we're talking 40charx8 and I want 80x24 minimum, Graphics not needed. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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Not really on-topic haiku

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 98-06-23 22:09:20 EDT, you write: << A Win95 Haiku Yesterday, it worked Today it is not working Windows is like that (found in the local newspaper :) >> lol. i have a bunch more. message me privately if you want em. david

27 years, 10 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it... <Why DO EPROMs go bad? Eprom technology relies on a stored electrostatic charge. The gate structure it uses as a capacitor is insulated with (SIO2) glass so its very high resistance but over time it can absorb mosture and the charge can leak off. UV accelerates that as do xrays and cosmic rays. The Xrays, this I know from erasing OTPs back when. I hadd help from a site were they were using industrial xray hardware on pipes. They thought I was nuts until I explaned that the parts were then worth about 25$ a peice and I have maybe 100 with me. The problem with OTPs is they are plastic and are not hermetic. The best for storage are the two slabs of ceramic types with kovar header or IBMs titainium/ceramic package. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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MacWorks has old mac systems for more or less free... *shrug*

by poesie＠geocities.com

http://www.macworks.com/html/computers.html have old systems for "free", although there is a $25 handling 'fee' to make sure everything is inside. and if you're not in the kansas city area, there's 25 for shipping too. so they're not free, but i thought i'd just mention it if anyone for some strange reason is interested. -Eric

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by poesie＠geocities.com

Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. -Eric

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Incidentally, I spent a lot of time today in the Boston Science Museum. They have some old models, even a functional steam engine, but also a lot of hands on junk. Although kids do enjoy touching things and often regard untouchable museums as boring, there is the issue of the usefullness of the things, and even the issue of what knowledge we are propagating to the children. Many of the exhibits were broken. The robots exhibit had an arm shooting hoops. The worst it got was with the model of the NASA Dante II robot. It was hands-on, all right: press the up button to move a leg up, and the down button to move it down. Just one leg. BTW, they had an early Amiga in one kiosk. At any rate, I was kinda bored with so much floor space taken up by junk. In the Computer Museum, there was a very interesting application of hands-on. They had a part of a Whirlwind, with both the wire and tube sides of a panel exposed (behind glass, of course). The tubes were on, and you could actually feel how warm they got. Then there was an English->Punched card translator...Now those are good. >What I am moaning about is the 'hands-on' experiments using equipment >that would be found in most homes (or could, at least be bought >cheaply). It doesn't cost much to buy a battery and a bulb and test >objects to see if they conduct. It doesn't cost much to buy a bucket, >fill it with water and see what floats. Those are things that can >easily be done at home. Let's have things that can't be done at home >easily (demonstration engines, clock escapements, etc). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

How about a system like in recent software: 'levels'. That is, the exhibits are arranged in such a way that someone doesn't HAVE to pay attention to any details, but they are there. I can't tell you how annoying it is to walk through a museum and not have any idea what the exhibits are talking about. >I don't think museums should necessarily cater to the lowest common >denominator. I realize they derive much needed revenue from public >visitors and don't want to turn the dummies off, but they shouldn't >insult the rest of us. >> Question: Do many of you actively encourage folks (at least those >>you know or trust!) to visit you and your private collection who are >>not collectors/historians like us? If so, do you have fun teaching >>them a little about old computing (or old radios, automobiles, >>clocks or whatever your interest in addition to computers)? I don't think the average person is interested in computer history. Computers are not visibly works of art, like old radios. Most people have no nostalgic memories of them except logging in to the mainframe to update some numbers at work, or the 'do not bend...' cards. When an average person sees an old computer, they don't say, 'remember when...' or 'whoa, look at that disk architecture', they say,'are you crazy? What are you bothering with this piece of **** for?'. And most modern comuterheads are Wintel drones who don't see the meaning of a computer without Windows (ironically, Mac users are much more aware of their hardware). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Agreed. And yes, Sam, I would talk to a buyer and ask why he wants something. I don't pay rent or insurance, so I don't know, but I would be very uncomfortable knowing I'm a thousand dollars richer and an IMSAI's blood on my hands. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to give a family living in Russia a PS/2 Model 70. Why didn't I give it to them? Because they would be hard pressed to find someone over there who is familiar with PS/2s. How would they use the english refdisk (Russian windows is no problem)? What if they want to add a sound card? This thing uses MCA, not ISA. >No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone... > >(new <somewhat non-computer related> example coming to my web pages >soon...) > >-jim >--- >jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com >The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw >Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174 > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Sour grapes (was: principals in online selling?)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Old adage: (slightly updated) > > "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to >pay for it" > >Corollary: (much newer) > > "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..." > Wow that makes my collection priceless...

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed I suggest real CD-ROMs >lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some >PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are >900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical >medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then >try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? >This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like >old magnetic tapes). I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer. >Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling >EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS >(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even >longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Nah! I went there this week-end no Lisa there and their prices are a little too high. Did you see the HP75's? Badly abused leaked batteries no PS $10 way too much plus nobody seemed to care I asked around if anyone knew wether they had the Ps's and the answers I got is if it's not near the machine it might be somewhere else. How about the badly dent Kaypro4 for $29? compac II (or III?) for $49. I used to like that place but now they are inflating their prices and won't even allow you to bargain. Francois -----Original Message----- From: Poesie <poesie(a)geocities.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:12 PM Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???) >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric >

27 years, 10 months

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Preservation into Eternity (was: IMSAI 8080)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it... Why DO EPROMs go bad? >Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in >carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized >stat bags, or similar). > >> That should keep IR out... > >IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of >Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold >leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly >have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for >future generations to puzzle over. > >Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . . ><Tongue now removed from cheek> > >Jeff > >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ >|Disclaimer: | >| | >| These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the | >| policies or opinions of my employer. | >| | >+------------------------------------------------------------------+ > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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Macintosh II (lisa???)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs. Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM for it, please email me at maxeskin(a)hotmail.com). Other models in this series were: Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three slots, video on the board Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case There were also other immaterial variants. >Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage >place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet >wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the >right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it >was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or >if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store >is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis, >racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything >interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody. > >-Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by peacock＠simconv.com

What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam? That should keep IR out... And wrap them in aluminum foil to keep out the beta radiation, or even better lead bricks, keeps out cosmic rays and background radiation, oh, and move to some place with low radioactivity in the soil (hmmm, lets me out, Nevada is one of the most heavily nuked areas in the world), and store them at some location with a low altitude too, say the Dead Sea or Death Valley. I almost forgot, are the ROMs ceramic? Bad news, transfer them to plastic OTPs, ceramics generally have materials that source beta radiation. Those pretty white and gold cases could be destroying bits even now. Seriously, I preserve ROMs in the S-100 boards by disassembling them and saving the source code. I have about 30 backup tape generations on 4mm (I do one at the end of each month, well, 2 now, bigger disks), plus older backups on DC600 cartridges, and an offsite backup too, so I don't worry too much about losing them. And an extra advantage in having the source code is you can actually figure out how the hardware works, not have to depend on the skimpy manuals. The only drawback is that it is time consuming. Jack Peacock

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Well, let me modify that slightly. It's only disgusting in that it's >> going to be preventing people like the folks here on classiccmp from >> getting their hands on systems and taking proper care of them. Sure, > Yes, I agree 100%. As an example, one of the machines I would like is an > Apple Lisa. Not because it's collectable, but because I'd like to compare > Apple's extension of the work at Xerox PARC with the PERQ and with a > Xerox D-machine. In other words I want to strip a Lisa down, hook a logic > analyser up to it, and hack it to hell and back. In then end I'd still > have a working Lisa, and I'd have a stack of notes as to what really goes > on inside one. > But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices. > So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-( So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2? >> we all collect computers for the sake of collecting, but most of us >> really enjoy keeping them running and taking care of them, and can > Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers are in any sense > being preserved properly. I would doubt if ROMs were ever backed up or > PSUs tested. Heck, distribution disks are probably not backed up even. > I'll admit I sometimes damage the fabric of a classic, but I'm a lot more > careful than that. Full working, in dayly use (ok, at least once a week. >> Lucky for me, the computers I really love the most are the ones NOT >> found on Ebay. I've never seen a PDP8 or a PDP11 on Ebay, for instance. > Ditto, actually. I don't want an Altair, amazingly. Well, if somebody was > throwing one out I'd save it, but it's not a machine I'm looking for. In > fact, as I mentioned here once before, when 10 year ago I was offered the > choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i, I grabbed the latter. deal ! Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem <that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, <althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write <anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape. <PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are I have floppies from then to bot readable and not. more are readable than not. What that means is every ten years update to new media to preserve the data. <Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling <EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS Maybe... they realy on charge storage and that can dissapate in time. Also xrays, cosmic rays and whatever can erase them! This does not include the ambient moisture getting to the silicon and rendering it to sand. <(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even Fuse link proms were even worse. I've had them grow back or develope other defects over time. AIM proms are better but still if overstressed at programming they can exhibit failure over time. <longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - <it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or <2708 not already needed for an old computer. In the case of 27xx devices, if they forget reprogram the same one if it's still good. If it failed well... find another? <> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose <> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's < <> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see <> and I don't want it to happen again. I've also had those regulators drift with age. Like any IC they can fail of many ways! Allison

27 years, 10 months

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IMSAI 8080

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers >>> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt >>> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested. >> Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had > The topic has drifted somewhat from the subject line - I wasn't only > refering to IMSAIs, but also to LISAs, etc, which most certainly do > contain ROMs. :) And also the most IMSAI I'v seen (on other boards - just to get power up a bit more comfortable :) > And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to > be backed up. Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks, althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters). So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ? This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like old magnetic tapes). Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even longer. So just copy them. And beside the information - it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or 2708 not already needed for an old computer. >> yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking >> the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge >> transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never > Yes, but there are regulators on each S100 card. If you've got a card > with rare socketed chips on it, I'd pull the chips and power up the card > without them the first time. Then check the local +5V rail, etc. It only > takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose > screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's. > If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see, > and I don't want it to happen again. I hope you keep this attitude for the next 20 years. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Quarter classics (was: Big Iron Was:RE: Backwate

by franke＠sbs.de

> [Science museum] >>> Alas they've added some of those 'interactive' experiments. While a good >>> idea in theory, I'm not sure they should be combined with collections of >>> historical scientific instruments, etc. The groups of people interested >>> in the two displays would have virtually no intersection IMHO. >> Hmm. The Deutsches Museum is a 'hands-on'/'interactive') museum >> since the first years, and the combination of historic displays >> and learning works fine - at least for me. > I've got no problem with working exhibits, and hands-on learning. But the > science museum already has far more stuff than it can display, so when > a lot of the space has recently been taken over with these interactive > experiments that have little to do with the historical stuff, it's a > pity. Thats maybe a difference, because the Deutsches Museum is supposed to be a learning thing - tell science and technic One special thing is that there are displays made in the 30s, 50s or 60s which are historical themself. I had some fights in the past where these displays should be removed and replaced by something 'modern'. > While I am sure that such things are educationally very valuable, if I > want to see which materials conduct electricity, I'll do it at home :-). > I want to see things that, in general, I don't have at home, and am not > likely to have at home. No. It's exactly about the 'simple' displays to tell the basic story. I don't need a 'multi media experiance' on computers, when nobody tells the story of a flip-flop or any dimple and/or/not logic (Without these _simple_ displays at the Deutsches Museum I never had understood the two-stroke engine or the exact system of the 'controls' of an steam engine in locomotives). Example: in the computer hall they have a display showing a digital counter build of acryl boxes, driven by _water_ (As I said before - the computer display is marvelous until Zuse engine - thereafter just junk). Thats the kind I'm talking about - showing the basics. > Last time I was there, they had some kind of virtual reality system (a > game of some kind, I think). I didn't investigate further, as it cost > more money to see it. Note that this wasn't an exhibition on how virtual > reality machines work, or anything like that. And it was using the space > that had once held a GWR 'Castle' locomotive and a Class 55 Deltic. Sad, but if I had to decide between just displaying a clasic engine or a hans on display, I favour the later - don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about fun rides for entertainment. The Deutsches Museum also owns an impressiv collection of railway vehicle, and some real unique pices, but they are only to show significant stages of technology, not just historic - Thats reserved for railway mueseums (btw: you have in GB a museum still without any comperable counterpart in Germany - the Tramway Museum in Chrich!). >>> Oh, back the heads off the drum and replace it with a set of RAMs and >>> counters :-). Keep the drum turning, and demonstrate the machine with >>> more modern memory (at least for day-to-day operation). >> Exactly my idea of a display ... > Right... Well, even better, teach people how to start and stop the drum > and keep the machine original, but I guess that wouldn't be practical. Nice - but dream - the drum was alredy not very reliable when it was new. It would be a huge success if it could run only once. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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BULL - XPS 120 - HELP!

by wanderer＠bos.nl

Hi, The XPS100 and XPS120 are made by Bull S.A. (French computer maker, the Unix systems where actually made in Pregnana, Italy), the XPS100 used to be a single processor machine with an 68010 (or 68020) and the XPS120 used to be a dual cpu machine (that is, as far as I can remember it) When I worked with them they had Unix System 5 rel. 0, but maybe also release 1 or 2 has been made available at a later stage. Basically after you have connected all the disks and so on it should work, the console should generate some diagnostic messages and other stuff, and you should then get the login prompt. Ed -- The Wanderer | Geloof nooit een politicus! wanderer(a)bos.nl | Europarlementariers: http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer | zakkenvullers en dumpplaats voor Unix Lives! windows95 is rommel! | mislukte politici. '96 GSXR 1100R | See http://www.bos.nl/homes/wanderer/gates.html for a funny pic. of Gates!

27 years, 10 months

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APPLE //c question

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I >> found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch >> to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" >> written on it. I always thought that the //c was released >> in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary >> (at least I think) german //c. There is no information >> sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell >> information is available (I forgot to check the revision >> number on the mainboard). The character generator is also >> 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade >> (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). > Is the texture of the case smooth or rough? Does it have the Apple logo > and the //c name imprinted on the top of the case towards the back end? > If you still have it open, look under the power supply (it takes some > force to pull the P/S out of its socket). What does it say underneath? Camera and Pictures are at home. I'll have a look (yes its still open, since I use this to giv him a complete cleaning). More information tomorrow. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by peacock＠simconv.com

> If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. A TK50 (CompacTape I, 95MB) can be read in any TK drive up to a TK86 (CompacTape III, 6GB). A TK70 (CompacTape II, 295MB) is also upward but not downward compatible. However, if you fully erase a TK70 with a degausser it will work in a TK50 drive, but from then on it looks like a TK50 tape in a TK70 drive too. Re uVAX 2000 tape drives, a TK50-F is the original drive but the SCSI controller in the tape needs an upgrade if you use it with any other SCSI controller, like a MicroVax 3100. The TK50-G model had the updated ROMs, so given a choice look for the G model instead. Jack Peacock

27 years, 10 months

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APPLE //c question

by franke＠sbs.de

Yesterday I opened my Apple //c to take a picture, and I found something strange: On the OS _EP_ROM is a batch to close the window, handmade with the text "NOV 30, 83" written on it. I always thought that the //c was released in april '84 and first in the US - but this is an ordinary (at least I think) german //c. There is no information sticker on the case, so no serial number or exact modell information is available (I forgot to check the revision number on the mainboard). The character generator is also 'only' an EPROM, but the sticker on the window is premade (paper) with a copyright notice (APPLE 83). So, is this maybe some kind of early pre production series for tests in Germany ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 10 months

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Old Mac OS.... Help PLS!

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

Hi Lawrence: Thanks for your info, I will search it up from WWW.... :) BTW, may I use any Mac emulator, and get the HD-COPY from Apple site and run it to extract the Mac disc image from an IBM directly? Yours, Ken Yaksa > There are several programs for transferring disks from a PC to Mac . > Macindos , Macsee , and IMHO the best is Macdisk . > This is a description: > macdisk.exe (249K) > Mac Disk is a PC utility to read, write, and > format Macintosh HD floppy disks. Bundled > with an Ascii converter and a utility to edit the > internal table. Contains a demo version under > Windows and a shareware version. From Pierre > Duhem. See ReadMe for additional information. > > macsq.exe (318K) > Mac SQ is a PC utility to read, write and > format Macintosh SyQuest cartridges on a PC. > Contains a demo version under Windows and a > shareware version under DOS. > > The macsq overcomes the problem of the non-MFM > 800 and 400 k flopies if you have access to a Syquest > removeable. > > I can't find the URL for this but a search should easily turn it up. > Of course if you have a working Mac you can down load to a PC > The trick is not to uncompress on the PC but simply transfer the > uncompressed files and then uncompress them with Shrinkit . > The same technique works with the Atari ST > > ciao larry > > lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

> I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. Readable? By what machine? Are they single or double sided and what format? (My machines with 8inch: IBM System/23, FTS Series 88 (FTS is CP/M86). I also intend one day to get a PDP running, and connect an RX02 to it.) > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. As usual, shipping to the UK is likely to be expensive. I am reluctant to buy secondhand blank disks, although given the quality of most new disks nowadays, secondhand ones are unlikely to be any worse... > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. I don't think I'll buy disks unless they have something really nice on them, but: If you do get to the point of throwing disks away, please keep the paper envelopes, and I will pay for shipping of these. I am very short (some disks three to an envelope at present) because I also store photographs in them (I get 8 inch square prints back from the developer). Philip.

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<From CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Tue Jun 23 05:31:27 1998 <Return-Path: <CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu> <Received: from lists4.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2 < id AA07052; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 05:31:26 -0400 <Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) < by lists4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with S < id CAA20579; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:25:23 -0700 <Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9 < by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ES < id CAA68408 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 <Received: from imsp073.netvigator.com (imsp073.netvigator.com [205.252.14 < by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.09) with ESM < id CAA17221 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:24: <Received: from ken-yaksa (yckam027047.netvigator.com [206.161.49.239]) < by imsp073.netvigator.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA13587 < for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:24:12 +0800 (HKT <Message-Id: <199806230924.RAA13587(a)imsp073.netvigator.com> <Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:19:21 +0800 <Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu <Precedence: bulk <From: "Ken Yaksa" <yaksaken(a)hkstar.com> <To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washing <Subject: Re: available 8" disks <Mime-Version: 1.0 <Content-Type: text/plain; charset=BIG5 <Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <X-To: <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> <X-Msmail-Priority: Normal <X-Priority: 3 <X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN <Status: R <May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I <discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I woul <pay the shipping... :) < <Yours, <Ken Yaksa OK, here's the scoop. 1) I don't want to ship if I don't have to. 2) I'd really rather not ship international No one is interrested in paying me to package them to ship. Even with free boxes and wadded up newpaper as padding it's still my time and tape. 3) the games disks... that was an unfortunate inclusion and the number of disks that represents is small compared to the SIGM and CPMUG portion which is some 300 or so. The rest are belived blank, or what have you on them. 3a) the cpmug and SIGM disks are all on the WCcdrom and simtel, I feel no guilt dumping them as it's not like they are anywhere near the last on earth. They are more useful as media of if you have a 8" cpm system convenient. 4) they are all CP/M sssd though some may be ssdd. 5) local pickup prefered. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II <will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. You can not us <Compact III's or IV's (not that you would want to even used they are VER <spendy). CompactTapeII is not usable as it's for tk70 and is different oxide. The II tapes are the same size though. TK50 tapes can be read in tk70 but not the reverse. <Oh, and they are light grey. of course. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

It certainly seems to have a load of memory chips in it! But I didn't <really try to tally the total amount. the base board has 2mb and there are two daughter boards one for the network (has 7990 lance chip) and the otehr is more memory. <Do you have a wiretable from the 60-pin to hard and floppy connectors? Iff the top of my head no, it's not that complex though. finding the 60 pin connector is the challenge. It's then broken down to the 34pin for the floppy, 43pin for the HD and the 22pin for the HD. <That 15-pin CRT/keyboard/mouse sounds an awful lot like the Rainbow <setup. Could I be so lucky? Maybe, I forget the cable and monitor used. there were both color and monochrome. The cable for the rainbow may not be useable! I don't have graphic consoles for mine so cables and tubes are a dim memory. <Heh heh! Hope they are not the nuisance that house flies are! Not likely, but fun. This will help with the monitor command the VS2000 is a subset of the vs3100 that would come later. DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ } [<datum>]] EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ }] BOOT [/[R5:]<bflg>] <ddau>: TEST <n> [<m>] BOOT command Syntax: BOOT [/[R5:]<bflg>] <ddau>: ddau - device in VMS/VMB column listed in 'SHOW DEV' command R5: - ??? bflg - ??? Bootstraps from and submits control to the loaded program retrieved from device 'ddau' DEPOSIT command Syntax: DEPOSIT [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ } [<datum>]] Writes argument(s) to memory /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for ??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for ??? /U - ??? /N:<n> - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) <addr> - memory address (hexidecimal) <sym> - ??? + - increments pointer by byte/word/long - - decrements pointer by byte/word/long * - ??? @ - ??? <datum> - that which is written to memory determined by above args EXAMINE command Syntax: EXAMINE [{ /B | /W | /L}] [{ /P | /V | /I }] [/G] [/U] [/N:<n>] [{ <addr> | <sym> | + | - | * | @ }] Examines memory contents /B - byte (8 bit) /W - word (16 bit) /L - long (32 bit) /P - ??? /V - ??? /I - I registers (0x00-0x13) what are they for??? /G - G registers (0x00-0x0f) what are they for??? /U - ??? /N:<n> - number of entries (bytes/words/longs) <addr> - memory address (hexidecimal) <sym> - ??? + - increment pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long - - decrement pointer by 1=byte, 2=word, 3=long * - ??? @ - ??? TEST commands Syntax: TEST <n> n - number in decimal 00-99 Function: Performs peripheral tests 00 - system exerciser 50 - Disply config in criptic form (the third column is informative) 51 - set default boot device 52 - set boot flags 53 - set default recover action (boot) 54 - set keyboard language 61 - screen of "E" used for monitor checking (monochrome) 62 - white screen (monochrome monitor) 70 - format drive installed (floppy ot hard) 71 - diskette or HD verifier 81 - screen of "E" for color monitor 82 - white screen for color monitor 87 - 8 color bars for color monitor 88 - 8 gray scale bars for comor or monochrome Allison

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<Sounds like a Maxtor 2190 clone. usually says maxtor on the top and 2190 on the side. <> Back to that SCSI -- the SCSI in the MicroVAX 2000 was for use only <> with the TK50Z-FA tape drive, a 95MB cartridge tape system which looks <> almost exactly like today's fancy DLT tapes (It's DLT's grandfather, <> pretty much). TK50 is an extremely common format for older (early to <Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of <occasionally? Yes and you want one as they store 95 meg and it's a sorta default smallvax tape. The TK50z-fa is a second box the same size as the one you have. If you can find a external storage box (yep, another bix just like that one) you have the full storage boat. <No, but there are a 50-pin and a 60-pin header on the motherboard that <are not presently used. the 60 pin is the MFM-HD/Floppy connector and the 50 pin is a vaild pinout for a 50 pin scsi. <The VMS VAXcluster is not an option, but the netboot may be. Also check out www.decus.org as you can get a license for VMS free. The real trick is media as Montgar.com has the CDROM with VMS5.4 through V6.1 and a bunch of other stuff for 30$. Usually you can get someone to crack the cdrom (it's DEC VMS files not PC compatable) to TK50. The alternate is if someone has a VS2000 or MicrovaxII they can put the OS directly on the rd54 and you can plug it in. Ultrix can often be found on old machines as well if your into unix. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Jun 22, 22:05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Is that the 4" square (about) tape cartridge that i see a lot of > >occasionally? > > If they are labeled "CompacTape", yes. I'm not sure if the CompacTape II's > will work in a TK-50 drive, but I've been told they will. No, but the other way round (CompacTape/TK50 in a CompacTapeII/TK70 drive) works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 10 months

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available 8" disks

by yaksaken＠hkstar.com

Hi Allison: May I have few blank disks from you too...?? I live in Hong Kong, and I discover that I never can find 8" disks in my location! :( If so, I would pay the shipping... :) Yours, Ken Yaksa > I have about two xerox paper boxes of 8" floppies. this is several > hundred floppies. > > Box one is the entire sigm and cpmug volumes and they are readable. > > Box two is mostly blanks or believed to be. > > Local pick up or shipping would be small quantities of disks so they can > be packed in plastic disk boxes. > > If there is no interest I intend to dump these as it's filling the garage. > > Also I have another box load that have programs (orginal disks) of the > likes of deadline, planetffall, Aventure and more.

27 years, 10 months

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What is the first computer?

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

Just to be different, I accidentally sent this to Hans instead of the list last night. ;-) P. ______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________ Subject: Re[6]: What is the first computer? Author: Philip Belben at PowerTech2 Date: 22/06/98 18:17 >> Was the Z3 like the Z4 in using old 35mm cine film for punched tape? >> (don't try and read it with an optical reader!!!!) > > Never heard of opto-mechanics ? *g* > > In fact all early Zuse computers used old cine tapes. > Z1, Z2, Z3, Z4. Opto mechanics? Fine. That is, fine if you want your data to be logically OR'd with the picture recorded on the film... >> Irony of the week: the >> Pascal calculator in the London Science Museum is a decimal model. That >> in the Deutches Museum is a Pounds, Shillings and Pence model. :-) > > Afaik they also own a decimal one, but Pounds, Shillings and Pence > ar _way_way_way_ more exotic :) - It gets a lot more attention than > 'just' decimal calculaters, althrough the difference are only some > of the wheels. :-) IIRC, marked Livres, Solz, and Deniers. What's Solz an abbreviation of? Solides? I thought shillings were Sous! (off topic) I've always thought the single European currency should be called a Pound because there's a word for it in almost all European languages - Pfund, Livre, Lira, Peso(?) etc. Dollar would do as well, I suppose (Thaler?). Or even Ecu (Escudo?). But Euro?!?!?!? > Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut > HRK What does "HRK" mean? I apologise for taking it as your initials - our mail software strips off the header and you have to go and look for things like the Sender's name or address. (The quotation is Descartes, isn't it?) Philip.

27 years, 10 months

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Tandy DWP-210 For Sale!!!

by hills＠frontiernet.net

Classic daisy-wheel printer for sale. http://www.frontiernet.net/~hills/dwp.htm

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Saturday at the local swapmeet, I picked up a MicroVAX 2000. It is a < neat little package, but now that I have it what can I do with it? And < how do I do it? IT's a vax and runs VMS(fits on a RD53 or 54), Ultrix(fits on rd53 or 54) and sorta runs NETBSD(?). If you put a terminal on the DB9 (ground pin 8 to 9) it will use a standard terminal (9600, 8,n,1). The Test 50 command will display ram installed and other data about the system. VMS and ultrix runs fairly well in 4 or more meg of ram NetBSD wants 8 or more, 14mb is max. < This one is a Model 625NT-AA, and comes without harddisk. It appears IT has a hard and a floppy controller on the board (the 60 pin connector). The biggest drive it knows is the RD54 (maxtor 2990) at 159mb. It can also format hard disks and DEC floppies rx50 <400kb dual 5.25> or RX33 <1.2mb, 5.25>. < that there is a resistor board installed to provide a load comparable < to the drive on the power supply. According to a rather sketchy spec < sheet that I d/l'd from DEC, it can handle a maximum 318mb local disk. < Based on the 53C80 chip installed, I presume that the drive should be < SCSI. The 318mb of local disk is 2 RD54s. The 50 pin internal connecter is indeed SCSI... but the only device usable is an oddball version of the TK50 tape that has the ODD scsi bridge board. Reason for oddball, BOOT ROMS do not talk std SCSI nor do they boot anything other than Eithernet (BNC), Floppy, HARD disk or TK50 tape on the scsi BUS. It will not boot a SCSI disk. It can use a SCSI disk IF you supply your own driver. < At the rear of the machine are three sub-D connectors, one each 25-pin, < 15-pin, and 9-pin. What are their functions? The 15 and 9 are < presently encumbered by a plugin box that has three RJ45(?) connectors. < Network link? 25 pin is modem. 15 pin is CRT/keyboard/mouse, 9pin is serial printer or console. The MMJ adaptor bring out the serial printer, mouse and keyboard lines to RS423 serial lines for terminals (ala dec vt320). That MMJ adaptor is removeable (two screws). Network is on the AUI or BNC connector and is eithernet (10base2). They are common as house flies and as small vaxen go pretty useful and fun to run as they really don't use much power. Allison

27 years, 10 months

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FW: Fellow's looking for a VAXen in Oz

by kyrrin＠jps.net

One of our fellow collectors 'down under' is apparently seeking a VS3100 or similar. If you can help, please contact him directly. Thanks in advance. Attachment follows. -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: <> Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Subject: vaxstation wanted NNTP-Posting-Host: 139.134.95.117 Message-ID: <358e6062.0(a)139.134.5.33> Date: 22 Jun 98 13:47:14 GMT Lines: 9 Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!139.130.250.2!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nntp.telstra.net!139.134.5.33!139.134.95.117 I am after a used vaxstation 3100 or 4000 model. Must be working. Also TLZ06 DAT drive wanted. Has anyone got one for sale in Sydney, Australia area. Email me at GADTECH(a)bigpond.com.au -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272) http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin -- also kyrrin [A-t] Jps {D=o=t} Net Spam is bad. Spam is theft of service. Spam wastes resources. Don't spam, period. I am a WASHINGTON STATE resident. Spam charged $500.00 per incident per Chapter 19 RCW.

27 years, 10 months

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MicroVAX 2000

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Not exactly, the SCSI port is only for a tape drive, a TK50Z (an early > ancestor to modern DLT drives). Gerhard Moeller has hacked together a SCSI driver for the beast. You'll still need an MFM drive to boot from, though. He posts fairly frequently on comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms, so it shouldn't be difficult to track him down with dejanews. > A uVAX 2000 uses MFM drives, either a > Microplis 1325/DEC RD53 (70MB) or a Maxtor 2190/DEC RD54 (159MB). In > order to load VMS you really need the RD54, 70MB is too small. Unless, of course, you install something like MicroVMS 4.5, which was current when the thing came out. I've installed 7.1 on an 40MB drive, but it was painful and it occasionally spontaneously crashes. Using Gerhard's driver, I have a nice little package containing a 40MB drive and a TZ30 tape drive to take on travel. I did have to do some metalwork hacking to get the TZ30 in; there's a cable that wanders around outside the 5.25" form factor. > The HD > controller is the 40 pin SMC chip on the motherboard. Oddball MFM > format, not compatible with WD HDCs, Well, technically, the format itself is compatible. The 2000 just adds some extra information to control bad block replacement. The PC doesn't know about the extra information and, consequently, doesn't add it. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

27 years, 10 months

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