>> I just picked up a Tektronix 4041 computer. I think it's a general
>> purpose HP-IB instrument controller similar to a HP 9915. How close is it
>> to your 4052? I HAD a Tektronix 4046 disk drive unit for the 4041 a few
>> months ago but I traded it off (A_ S___!) Does anyone know anything
Not at all similar, I'm afraid.
The 4051 was a 6800 machine, and the 4052 used four 2901 chips and a
homebrew sequencer to give you a 25MHz 6800 with some extra
instructions. More about this - and the disgusting piece of
pessimisation they included - at my talk at VCF...
Philip.
Tony Duell qouted Jeff as having written:
>> Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
>
> Problem is, I don't think Philip has the CS/80 protocol (mainly because
> I'm looking for it, and he's not offered it to me ;-)). And without that
> impossible-to-find document, it's almost impossible to use HP drives.
True. The reason was, I have _no_ HP disk drives, but I have _three_
8050s (one working, one in bits, one badly mangled), not to mention a
4040 and a 2031 (which would also work), and at least six PETS. So the
Commodore stuff was the obvious choice.
And Tony is also right: I don't have the CS/80 protocol.
Besides, most of the problems were with the Tektronix lacking facilities
for opening files, loading and saving named files, etc.
Not to mention its asserting of IFC just when I didn't want it to...
> The Commodore protocol is pretty well documented in a number of books
> ('Programming the PET' has enough info, I think).
by Raeto West? Exactly what I used.
>> In this neck of the woods anyway, Commodore IEEE related 'stuff'
>> is pretty scarce . . .
>
> It's not that rare in the UK. I've got an 8050, 8250LP and a number of
> printers here.
Agreed. Lots of PETs were used in commercial/scientific applications -
probably because of the GPIB - and there are even books like West or
Osborne & Donahue in the library here at work.
Philip.
I want to apologize to you for accidentally sending you an anti-spam
message. When I first set up my auto-reply spam filter it was acting
quite funky.
Again, I apologize.
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter [mailto:pechter@shell.monmouth.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 7:48 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: What the hell is a NightHawk 5800?
>
>
> >
> > At 09:26 PM 8/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
> > >Almost sounds like something from the government - even
> the name.
> >
> > Very likely. Harris does a LOT of government work. Their satellite
> > division (and others) are literally right around the corner
> from this place.
> >
>
> Harris had a number of computer lines. I can't guarrantee the
> following
> info -- but I think it's accurate. The Nighthawk was a
> (mostly) military
> real-time Unix machine based off the Masscomp 500 and 5000
> line and RTUv3
> (they started as OEM's doing a secure version of the OS and
> then began using
> stuff of their own design).
>
> Masscomp was eaten by Concurrent Computer (formerly Perkin
> Elmer, formerly
> Interdata) which was swallowed by Harris about 4 years ago. Harris
> took the Concurrent name, though.
>
> Harris also came up with both a firewall application (now
> sold by a different
> company now -- at the merger Harris spun off the firewall
> operation and
> the secure Unix, I think). They now do real-time Unix and are trying
> to crack the Video Server business.
>
> Masscomp and Concurrent used the 68000 family (Masscomp folks
> used to be
> DEC and DG types with Real-time experience on 11/23 Mincs).
>
> Masscomp kind of filled the need for small lab real-time
> stuff when DEC
> went off to chase the Vax $$$ and let real-time slip away in the mid
> 80's. They added DEC's AST's to System III to get a soft real-time
> system for labs and instrument and industrial control.
>
> HISTORY...
>
> Concurrent did real-time on their proprietary systems (OS/32) and
> saw a need to get away from OS/32 and into real-time Unix so
> they bought
> Masscomp. Concurrent failed in every small machine they tried to
> put together before Masscomp and pretty much put the last
> nail in Masscomp's
> coffin. Concurrent failed to come up with a good software
> development
> environment on OS/32. DEC cleaned their clock on everything but
> hardware price/performance. They had the most hardware bang
> for the buck and needed the OEM's to make them a winner (where
> DEC moved more into a systems and SOFTWARE company). I worked for
> DEC and later Concurrent (at the time of the Masscomp deal.)
>
> PROCESSORS...
>
> Masscomp went from 68k to Mips R3000 in the early 90's and then
> merged with Harris.
>
> Harris used 68k and then went to 88k (I think) and then Power PC.
>
> Harris also made commercial supermini's (24 bit machines).
>
>
> Bill
>
> P.S. - If anyone is interested, I'm willing to provide an edited copy of
> my windows cardfile of vendors. have about 1000 pages, w/ contacts for
> alot of diff manufacturers. email privately if interested. :)
Would you still happen to have this cardfile available?
At 12:17 AM 8/19/98 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>I am also now the proud owner of an SGI 4D/380 (and most of another
>4D/380). Physically it is in very good shape, but apparently it is quite
>sick. 8 processors, buckets of SIMMs, neeto graphics, but the best thing
>is the "CPU Power Meter" on the front of the cabinet...
>Does anyone have IRIX on 1/4" tape?
With SGI, you're dealing with a (barely? :-) still existent company.
You're supposed to buy IRIX, not copy it. On the other hand, is
there any evidence that an IRIX license was transferred to you
as part of the deal on this machine? Buying a second SGI box that
comes with a license will be cheaper than buying it from SGI. :-)
Ask the experts on news at comp.sys.sgi.*.
- John
> Hi William,
> Do you have a URL for the RetroComputing Society? I'm in South
> Central PA. Maybe I could make it down some time.
Try <http://osfn.org/rcs/>.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
On Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:00:56 -0700 you said to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
cl>YES YES YES!!!!!! *Jumps about and throws mouse at floor like
cl>football* Oops...
cl>At any rate, I am now successfully logged into the MicroVax II as
cl>SYSTEM!
cl>Thanks to all who helped me out! Now if I just had documentation
cl>other than the built-in HELP database.
cl>Basically, now what I'd like to do is get some assistance (in
cl>private email if it's more appropriate) to make a full backup of
cl>the system so that I can feel safer playing around with it.
For VMS documentation try the links at
http://vaxarchive.ml.org/swdoc/vms/vms_doc.shtml
This is a list of a great deal of VMS documentation available online.
Basically you first create a Standalone Backup tape, which is bootable
tape needed to backup a system disk and restore a backup to a blank hard
disk, and then you boot from this tape and do the backup.
Boot VMS from the hard disk and enter these commands to create the
standalone backup:
$ SET DEFAULT SYS$UPDATE
$ @STABACKIT
The program asks for the name of the device the kit is to be built on,
usually this is MUA0:
To back up the system, boot from the tape with
>>> B/E0000000 MUA0:
When the prompt appears, enter the command:
$ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY DUA0: MUA0:FULLBACK.BCK/REWIND/LABEL=AUG19
This assumes you are backing up the first hard disk on the first disk
controller to the first tape drive on the first tape drive controller.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
< Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such a
< PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'
< love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
No. I do use VEDIT for CP/M configured to use the EDT keypad and function
very similar. It allows me the full screen modes via keypad and also
command line (change) using TECO macros.
Thre are versions (predeccessor) to EDT that run on PDP-11 under RT-11,
RSTS and RSX11.
Allison
allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> < http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25437342
Well, that's Allison quoting me. I'd been nosing through eBay to see
what else there was to fuss over and noticed someone put up a big lot
of parts for a low price and u-pick-up in Arlington, MA. Thought it
might be of interest to someone out that way as repair parts.
Where folks find time to go through eBay listings is what I wonder.
-Frank McConnell
Hmmm... Is the 4046 the SCSI Floppy Disk/Hard Disk rack mountable unit?
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:55 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Minor Tektronix success story.
>
>
> I just picked up a Tektronix 4041 computer. I think it's a general
> purpose HP-IB instrument controller similar to a HP 9915.
> How close is it
> to your 4052? I HAD a Tektronix 4046 disk drive unit for
> the 4041 a few
> months ago but I traded it off (A_ S___!) Does anyone know
> anything about
> the keybaords for the 4041? It uses a strange 4 pin
> connector. I've heard
> that you can operate them from a terminal. Does anyone know
> anything about
> this?
>
> Joe
>
> At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 GMT, you wrote:
> >A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I
> wanted to
> >share it with you...
> >
> >This weekend I finally got my Tektronix 4052 graphics
> computer loading
> >and saving on a Commodore 8050 disk drive. The problems:
> >
> >Commodore's weird handling of IEEE-488 protocol, especially
> with OPEN
> >and CLOSE. This requires bit 7 (the 128s bit) to be set
> when sending a
> >secondary address; bit 4 - usually the 16s bit of the
> address - tells
> >the drive whether it's an open or a close.
> >
> >This was easily solved - the Tektronix WBYTE statement gives full
> >control over such things.
> >
> >But the Tek is designed as a tape based machine. You FIND a
> file on the
> >tape and type OLD to load it. The machine then resets and loads the
> >program.
> >
> >On a disk, you WBYTE @40,240: some bytes to specify the file
> name. But
> >if you type OLD @8,0: it asserts IFC during the reset, thus
> causing the
> >drive to have forgotten all about your program by the time
> it comes to
> >load it...
> >
> >So I toyed with the idea of cutting the IFC line in a
> suitable cable.
> >But then I came across the APPEND statement. "APPEND @I/O
> address:line
> >number" loads a program without resetting, renumbering it to
> start at
> >the specified line. Neat.
> >
> >So I now have a program to display the directory of the
> disk, prompt you
> >for a filename and APPEND the file on the end of itself. It then
> >performs an INIT (initialise variables, IFC and things) and
> drops into
> >the program.
> >
> >Saving is easier, so less automated. You type something like
> >WBYTE @40,241:48,58,80,82,79,71,82,65,77,32,78,65,77,69,-13
> >WBYTE @63:
> >SAVE @8,1
> >WBYTE @40,225,63:
> >
> >Not perfect, but it works. If anyone has an 8050 at the VCF, I'll
> >happily demonstrate!
> >
> >Now, has anyone got a PET hard drive? And, for that matter,
> has anyone
> >got a MUPET system for sale?
> >
> >Philip.
> >
> >
>
A guy in Sweden put 4mb and a uVaxII and some MFM (RQDX?) in one
< with no problem and some serious wire wrap work.
<
< I don't think it's impossible -- especially with a reworked
< power supply.
Sorta agrees with what I said.
I looked at my Vt100 and it would be possible to shoehorn a set of VS2000
boards power supply and a disk into the VT100 case. It's easier to sit it
on top. ;)
Allison
> With all the DEC enthusiasts here, maybe someone can help:
>
> Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such as
> PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'd
> love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
You might want to look into JED - it has EDT keymaps available, as well
as Wordstar and Emacs. It runs nicely on Unixes, and Win95 ports seem to
be happening as well. It's available at:
ftp://space.mit.edu/pub/davis/jed/
You'll also need the Slang library, available at
ftp://space.mit.edu/pub/davis/slang/
Slrn and Most, also available at that site, are my favorite newsreader
and pager, respectively. I haven't used Jed as much.
--
Ben Coakley http://www.math.grin.edu/~coakley coakley(a)ac.grin.edu
CBEL: Xavier OH, Season 15 champions CMEL: Xavier
>With all the DEC enthusiasts here, maybe someone can help:
>Was DEC's EDT text editor ever `ported to any non-DEC platforms, such as
>PCs or unixes? It is still my favorite text and program editor, and I'd
>love to have on on some of my "everyday" machines.
Yes, there have been several ports of EDT. By far the most complete -
and the most expensive - is Boston Business Computing's. Everything
that is in real EDT is in BBC's EDT. See http://www.bbc.com/ for details.
There are several less worthy emulations, that do a pretty good job
of emulating EDT's CHANGE (ala "full-screen") mode but which don't
even attempt to emulate non-keypad or line modes. In particular,
an emulation package for EMACS falls into this category, as well as
the shareware JED.
-----
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917
7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817
Some folks may recall that my classic computer web pages (at
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/>) are automatically generated by a
program I wrote. Well, I've finally got the docs in some semblance of
order, for them what was interested. There's a link at the bottom of the
page, or you can go straight to
<http://www.sinasohn.com/clascomp/bldhtm.htm> for the related page. You
can also download the whole shebang there. Sorry it took so long!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
< ObCC: Supposedly, MITS came out with a hobbyist machine a couple of year
< before the Altair called the MITS 816. I haven't found much info about
< it. Is it real?
The only prior products to the altair were a hand calc (several) and also
some hobbiest telemetry bits. If there was another computer it was a
maybe to compete in the MARK-8 realm (8008 based).
In the 8008 realm there were several companies that predate MITS. There
used to be a company here in MA called Control Logic I think that had
their "L series" modules that were 8008 based.
Personally I view collecting Altairs to wine... altair was the first lot
produced by a particular vintor. It was as drinkable as hog urine but,
it was their first and the vintor would become famous and fail making
that first lot scarce and "collectable".
Most of the early altairs had to be hacked (required) to make them work.
They are now shelf addornments and should be held up as an example of
how not to do it. I'm being serious. Anyone that wants a S100 front
pannel box to actually run would do far better with an IMSAI, Ithica
Intersystems, or several others. Most however learn the first thing
with these is that once you have it running the first code you want is
a terminal keyboard monitor as replacement switches are a few bucks each
and the originals are getting poor. Also toggling in 25 or 50 bytes every
power up or crash gets tiring. I say this as someone that lived with the
MITS ACR (sill have the analog board for one) where you toggle
in a 33byte loader, then load MITS basic crash half way through (10
minutes), toggle in the loader again, load the tape... I think that
lasted three months until I made my first PROM card using 8223 proms.
A few weeks later the ACR tape interface would be removed in favor of
a digital tape of my own design. The load, crash, reload cycles were
a great detriment to the goal of doing some serious programming. I
still feel the flakey hardware and really awful audio cassette kept me
>from doing anything useful for the first 6-7 months of ownership.
Hacks applied to mine to make it work with some reliablity before it was
replaced with a NS* system in early 78.
* Moved AC power from front pannel switch as I felt it was dangerous
having an unprotected traces with 110v on them.
* 8V DC line was 7.8v with cpu and two 4k dram cards. Added 12 turns to
the winding. Upgraded filter cap to larger value, replaced undersized
rectifers. Mits offered a new transformer at users cost.
* +-16V DC line marginal, rectifers fried, upgraded.
* Backplane was in four slot segments and was a single sided affair.
I had 8 slots and had to add bussbar to the power and ground lines
as the power distribution from one end of the bus tot he otehr was
poor.
* modifed memory cards (88MCD) to improve timing and signal quality.
* Replaced backplane with a improved two sided one from third party.
* Replaced 2mhz crystal and oneshots used for 8080 clock with 8224 and
18mhz crystal.
* modified memory cards to replace 4060s with uPD410 static devices of
the same pinout.
After all this the system would load MITS basic and run for a week solid
without crashing.
By the middle of '76 I'd be up to 4 memory cards of both the 88mcd design
and a vastly better 88S4k design. a then whopping 16k of ram. That would
be eclipsed by the addition of a Seals 8k static card that was 1/3 the
cost of the first 16k and still works!
If I'd waited a year and bought an IMSAI I'd have saved all that time,
about $3000 and had a machine that would not have required replacement.
The upside is by that time I'd learned how it should NOT be done.
Allison
RE: VAX/OpenVMS
< I would have thought so. I don't think there were any features "retired"
< going form 5.2 to 5.5. Of course, there were lots of new things added
< although sitting here I can't think of what - it's been a while since 5.
< was released!
I've been operating VMS 5.4-5.5 without docs for about five years. I'd
consider a 5.2 docset a windfall! The differences from 5.2 to 5.6 are
in part bug fixes (odd releases, like 5.3, 5.5) and feature additions
(5.2, 5.4, 5.6). that's not absolute but it generally follows that
pattern. Also within a version 5.x major changes will not happen or it
becomes 6.x! Also if the system is complete there will be a features
and additions page in the help file.
Allison
< http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25437342
<
< When I last looked (an hour ago?) no-one had bid, the minimum bid is
< $1.00 (though there's work involved getting the stuff), there's a bit
< under two days to go, and here's the description:
<
< >Hundreds of tubes of brand-new 7400 & 74LS TTL DIPs and resistor
< >networks. 8 MHz 68000's and 16K DRAMs. Boxes and boxes of brand-new 3M
snip...
Sounds interesting but I'm cubed out here.
Allison
Almost sounds like something from the government - even the name. How
much are they asking for it? If it's not that much, it may be worth it
just to get it and see just what the heck it actually was for...
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: What the hell is a NightHawk 5800?
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:07 PM
>
> I was offered a NightHawk 5800 computer today. What the &*&% is it?
I've
> never heard of one. It was made by Harris Computer Systems and it's
> supposed to have 16Mb, Memory tape unit, a 5802 processor, 64 Meg Local
> Memory, 64 Meg Global Memeory, 2 slot front plane (front plane???), SCSSI
> Interface (no that's not a typo), Eagle Eatha Net Card, 4 mm DAT drive
and
> two 1 G hard drives. The operating system and a LARGE pile of manuals
are
> included. Any one know anything about this? ANY idea what it's worth?
> Is it usefull for anything?
>
> Joe
>
>>Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
>
> I hope E-OverPay eats him up with the listing fee!
>
> Joe
Actually, it costs him nothing to relist. The initial
listing cost him $2 but he is afforded one free relist
if the item does not meet it's reserve.
Now, I know that many of you want to chase the moneychangers
out of this temple. And some probably even think that I
am the anti-christ who came in on a black helicopter.
But please try to help me understand something. If I
put something up for auction on Ebay I have not held
a gun to anyone's head and forced them to buy anything.
If, by their own free will, they make the decision to
bid an amount that is more than the accepted value
of that item then what have I done that is unethical?
If someone goes to a high priced Mom and Pop hardware
store and pays $30 for a Weller soldering iron when
he can buy the same iron at Wal-mart for $20 did Mom
and Pop do something unethical by offering the iron for
$30?
I know many of you have occupations in which you (or
your employer)
sell products or services at retail. And I'll bet
some of it is sold at what many would deem "sucker" prices.
Does that make you unethical? Simply because
you are not willing to price at wholesale?
What is the difference?
Bob Wood
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I know this may be somewhat off-topic (I did throw in the word Altair a few
times though) but I can't help wondering now, what is preventing someone
>from setting an outrageous reserve and then simply accepting the highest
bidder's bid. The Ebay rules state (heh - you can believe me this time - I
just re-read them!) "You will not be charged a Final Value Fee if: There
were no bids on your item; OR There were no bids on your Reserve Price
Auctions that met the reserve price." In this case the Altair seller could
accept a bid of up to $9999 and end up owing Ebay $2.
Perhaps the Altair's ACTUAL (=in his head) reserve is considerably less than
$10000 and the person is simply trying to avoid the Final Value Fee.
<G>But is this ethical?
It should be noted that a winning BIDDER can also back out of a sale if
their bid didn't meet the reserve.
>
>Hey, Bob. I just noticed that you are the current high bidder! We
only
>know a few things about you: you're in it for the money, you've got a
>bunch of Altairs that you got "cheap", and you're an ethical guy. So,
>what's with the first momentum-setting bid?
>
>-- Doug
Doug,
To do this all in one post, first let me reply
to Marcus when he says...
"Ebay takes 5% of the bid
regardless of whether or not the reserve was met.
So if last time the bids went up to
$5000 - Ebay has billed him $250 + $2".
Marcus, When I need information relating to the
history of microcomputers I go to the experts. Doug
Yowza is an example. So, while certainly not an Ebay
expert, I'm a very experienced Ebay seller and you
can rely on my understanding of Ebay's terms.
Ebay charges a seller from 25 cents to $2 to list
each item (determined by the dollar amount of that
item's minimum and/or reserve). If the item does
not meet the reserve there is absolutely no further
fee charged by Ebay. If the item sells, the commission
charged by Ebay is as follows... 5% of the amount up
to $25. $2.5% of the amount between $25 and $1000.
And only 1% of the amount above $1000. The Altair
seller has been charged a total of $2 by Ebay, at this point.
If the Altair were now to sell for $10,000, the total
of fees and commisions he would pay to Ebay is
an additional $115.62.
Now, Doug, you ask "what's with the first momentum
setting bid"?
You have (and I suppose understandably so) jumped to
a wrong conclusion. If you have read all my words to
the readers of this list it should be apparent that
I have been very candid with you. I have no interest
in "establishing a momentum". The fact is that I had
tentatively made a sale on one of my Altairs. That sale
was never consummated. With all of the mention of
list subscribers contacting the parties involved in the
auction - I think it is possible that may have contributed
to my losing a sale and may influence the seller in question.
For that reason, I placed a bid that is the highest I
am willing to pay (Yes I will pay $2500. If anyone wishes
to sell me his Altair, contact me directly). If the seller
is told by those outside of his auction that his expectations
are silly then I am hoping he will sell me the computer
for that amount. It costs me nothing to try.
But, Doug, now that I have answered your question, you
have failed to answer mine. I would be very interested in
hearing your answer.
Bob Wood
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
At 08:00 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Strange coincidence, I just picked up another today (my second, the first
>doesn't pass self test).
Hint! Mine didn't either at first. It gave a bunch of ROM errors. I
unplugged the ROM drawer and it passed self tests. Then I took out the
ROMs and found one with one of it's pins bent under. I straightened the
pin and put everything back in place and now it passes all tests.
I know only a little about it from the manuals I
>got with the first. The only thing I know about the keyboards is that
>they are difficult to find, as I've never seen one yet.
I can believe it. I know a guy that has six 4041s and he still hasn't
found a keyboard.
>
>Its 68000 based and has a backplane inside so you can add or remove cards.
>If you look carefully at the bottom face of the unit, you'll notice it is
>a little cover about 1" high and the length of the front of the machine.
>You can pry it off with a coin, then pull on the rubber handle you see.
>Out pops a ROM tray. The one I got today has the Graphics ROM and
>thegraphics printing option.
Mine has the Program Developement ROMs and two other ROMs with Tektronix
part numbers but no name. They show up as PD, XO and IO in the self test
failure listing.
>
>You don't necessarily need the keyboard to program it although it helps
>I'm sure.
I'll bet! I'm still looking for a keyboard for my HP 9915s too!
Joe
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Ever onward.
>
> September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
> See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 08/09/98]
>
>
>While there, I found a slim manual to the CDC 6000 series
machines.
>Something about SCOPE...I suppose I ought to read it.
>
There were two OSes for the CDC 6000/7000 series, SCOPE and
KRONOS. KRONOS was the full blown OS, lots of feature,
utilities, etc. while SCOPE was the stripped down OS (I think it
predated KRONOS). As I remember SCOPE didn't really offer much
more than MSDOS in terms of services, it was mostly batch
oriented, big jobs, CPU intensive, not much timeshare support.
KRONOS was a fairly good timeshare environment for it's day, not
in the TOPS-20 league but of course very fast, being a 60 bit
Cray design.
Jack Peacock
Perhaps Bob wants to ensure that the guy has to pay the 5% to Ebay.
- Doug
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Yowza [SMTP:yowza@yowza.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 9:22 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Another Altiar up for Auction
>
> Hey, Bob. I just noticed that you are the current high bidder! We only
> know a few things about you: you're in it for the money, you've got a
> bunch of Altairs that you got "cheap", and you're an ethical guy. So,
> what's with the first momentum-setting bid?
>
> -- Doug
> Actually I'm still running one, in a Leading Edge model D Xt box that
> does cool exceptionally well. The power supply (and the fan in it) is
> behind the disk stack and exceptionally well cooled. I put a second fan
> in the 486/66 for that reason... to hot.
>
> The altair taught me well about heat... and lousy air flow.
>
> Allison
>
One of the computers that had a VERY bad airflow was the Tandy 2500SX.
They used to have one at my school, and someone left it on over the weekend
(turned off the monitor and forgot the computer). When they got back on
Monday, the fan in the P/S had stopped (bearings had somehow frozen), the
HD was still going, the top of the case (plastic) had gotten soft, and the
monitor had sunk into the top of the case. The hard drive was an old
Microscience 72(? may have been 80 with a lot of bad sectors) MB that
sounded like a full-height Maxtor when it was running. Nothing worked
anymore, except the HD would spin up. It was the only computer from that
school that I couldn't revive. Not even the RAM chips worked anymore.
Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan was
working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY tight
when removed from P/S) on Monday. The computer was a mini-desktop, and
only had a few vents near the bottom of the front panel and only a 2 1/2"
fan.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
In looking at the PDP-11/03's that I got today, one thing is very obvious.
They've got disk controllers that are useless to me. The controllers are
>from a company called 'Xebec', and it is my understanding that they went to
special drives.
Now I know that the /03's are SLOW, however, they're in a nice little case
so I'm looking at them thinking, hmmmm. I wonder if I can put a DILOG
floppy controller I've got in one of them. What I'm wondering is do such
things as drive controllers care about the 18bit / 22bit differences of the
backplane? At least it's my understanding that a PDP-11/03 has a 18bit
backplane.
On a separate note, I ended up with 3 more VT100's with this, and one of
them had a loose top, so I took a look inside, and noticed that it has what
looks to be a Q-Bus backplane. What is the story here? Can I put some
cards in here and have a working PDP-11? (I know figure the odds) I took
a look through the VT100 tech manual I got today, but couldn't find
anything about the backplane.
On a positive note, I've finally got some documentation, so maybe I'll
quite asking so many stupid questions. :^) On that note, I think I'll
send this, and spend some time trying to find some shelf space for said
documentation :^(
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
At 12:46 PM 8/14/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I fell very truly sorry for you. In a computer you have such an awesome
>and powerful device, which can educate you in more than a few ways.
>Newer equipment to a lesser degree, it's all black-boxes and corporate
secrets
>now, but older gear is perfect for finding out how things work. It's a shame
A quick question... How many people know how to work on their cars? How
many drive older vehicles without as much "black-box" stuff?
I think that automobiles are similar, in that knowing how they work, and
how to work on them, is really cool, and yet, a lot of us drive modern
machines (<20yo) and take them to mechanics, without ever thinking about
them. That's not wrong, but if you can see the similarity, it may help to
understand those who use computers without caring about how they work, or
without wanting to work on them themselves.
(P.S., I drive a '59 Land Rover(s) and my girlfriend's '89 Mazda.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
Don't know if this is classic but I just got an entire VMS 5.2 'grey
wall'free. Allison - can I reliably use this as a reference for my 5.5
system?
Now to learn eve and then VAX Macro.
Regards
Pete
Coming back from a long road trip to Radiofest in Elgin, IL, I stopped by
Fair Radio Sales in Lima, OH. On a shelf I saw what looked to be a decent
Kaypro 2X. If anyone is interested, drop them an email (search the Web
for the address). I have no idea what they wanted for it, nor its
electrical condition.
While there, I found a slim manual to the CDC 6000 series machines.
Something about SCOPE...I suppose I ought to read it.
I am also now the proud owner of an SGI 4D/380 (and most of another
4D/380). Physically it is in very good shape, but apparently it is quite
sick. 8 processors, buckets of SIMMs, neeto graphics, but the best thing
is the "CPU Power Meter" on the front of the cabinet...
Does anyone have IRIX on 1/4" tape?
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
--- You wrote:
> If they're not willing to sell them, I know two places here in Florida
>that are! They scrap out MACs by the dozens!
>
> Joe
>--- end of quote ---
>
>Oooh! Where? Where?
>
Two scrappers located in Melbourne, Florida. I can get you their phone
numbers but I doubt they'd be interested in shipping anything unless you're
willing to pay a handsome price.
Joe
--- end of quote ---
I live within (notveryreasonable) driving distance -- please do tell me the phone numbers, or at least the names and I can call information. Thank you!
-- MB
>Actually, it costs him nothing to relist. The initial
>listing cost him $2 but he is afforded one free relist
>if the item does not meet it's reserve.
This is only partly true: as soon as someone bids - Ebay takes 5% of the bid
regardless of whether or not the reserve was met. So if last time the bids
went up to $5000 - Ebay has billed him $250 + $2.
So I don't know why he doesn't just start the lowest bid at his reserve
price???? This is the same guy who lists a URL to an Ebay hints and tips
page. Perhaps he has some kind of psychological angle...
Markus Blumrich - mailto:ab594@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Student: Physiology & Computer Science / University of Saskatchewan
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/Profile.html ICQ:12361373
"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi
< > No, the PC DB9 is the mutant. ;) The DB25s are true RS232 with full
< > handshake.
< >
< Hmmm...I'll check with my breakout box tomorrow and check the docs on th
< terminal server. Something goofy is up. If the terminal server was
< seeing the MVII, I would have been able to telnet to the port. Hmmm...
DCE vs DTE...
< > The RD can be used but you'll need the customer formatter to format it
< > the RQDX3 instead of the DMIII controller.
< >
< Aha. I knew it. Is it hard or easy to get?
I don't have it but it's not that hard to find or copy. I use a MV2000
or RQDX3 formatter on PDP-11.
< No BASIC. I was a bit irritated with that. I think I need to find a
< decent VMS distribution on magtape or a TK50 cart. I have the controlle
< for and a TS05 6250 bpi streaming tape drive. Not hooked up yet but if
< the MVII is any indication, it'll be just fine.
Well you can get the CDrom (see decus). Even if you don't have a CDrom
on a VAX you may find someone that does.
< Anyone want to trade one-a-dem for an 11/24 cpu and 512k memory board?
< (Somehow I don't think anyone will go for that.) SCSI is where I always
< seem to fall down BTW. I need one for my 11/84 so I don't have to run
< the RA80 that's in it. Eeek. Big nasty power hog.
unibus is always harder to find eithernet and SCSI boards for. For Qbus
that would be less difficult as the DEQNA/DELQA and several vendors for
scsi cards.
Allison
I took a look at this myself; I had to go see for myself.
People, I've gotta tell you, this is way past the merely
crazy-- this is total, unbridled, runaway *insanity* !
What is *our* hobby comming to? Whats next? Celebs
pooling their money for the original source listing
of AppleBASIC? (Complete with annotations by Bill Himself,
sealed in an argon-filled case?!?!)
This is becomming worse than those damned BeanieBabies (tm).
Oy, I think I need a stiff drink now . . .
Jeff
At 04:05 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>When I saw the final bid on that altair, i nearly peed myself.
>
>Jim, if yer listening, I'm sending ya a check!!!!
>(not for $4K tho)
>
>Four IMSAI switch paddles and a SOL Keyboard kit :)
>
>Tony
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kai Kaltenbach [mailto:kaikal@MICROSOFT.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 3:44 PM
>> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>> Subject: RE: Altair prices
>>
>>
>> Geez, I'll bet our own Jim Willing is pretty disappointed
>> that his only sold
>> for $4213.
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=24405966
>>
>> What the heck is with that? Two Altairs auctioned
>> simultaneously, with a 3x
>> price differential.
>>
>> Guess I'm sitting on a fortune with my 5 Altairs, but I'd
>> never sell them
>> (and I mean that, whereas Jim used to say he'd never sell his either).
>>
>> Kai
--- Joe wrote:
At 06:03 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>If they are willing to sell the systems as is I would like to buy several
>of them, Please ask them
If they're not willing to sell them, I know two places here in Florida
that are! They scrap out MACs by the dozens!
Joe
--- end of quote ---
Oooh! Where? Where?
-- Marion
< Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users group with our
< raggedy group?
Tony,
That may be a good idea. Basic meetings would be the first step.
Allison
Hi,
This is a message for all of you in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis, St Paul
and surroundings)
I've allways wanted to meet some of you guys so I'll try to organize a get
together open to anyone. Here's the scoop:
The place: Tequilaberries in Coon Rapids (all you can eat prime ribs for
around $15)
The date: Friday August 28
The time: 6:00 pm
The people: Me and anyone who cares to join but you must repond to me in
advance since I'll probably have to make reservations.
Please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com
THanks and see you soon.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
I got another HP toy today. Another HP 9821! I already have one and
this is only the third one in existance that I know of. A collector in New
York has the other one. Does anyone know where I can find some manuals
for a HP 9820 or HP 9821?
Joe
i started a new job last week; one of my duties is going thru a
warehouse load (no joke) of older mac systems. everything from se30's to
older powerPC machines. question is this: since they all are being
scrapped and i cannot save them, anyone want me to pull some roms for
them? or any other useful components? let me know WHAT they are, and
WHERE they are, as I am not a mac tech. more than happy to see what i
can do for you people out there who want these.
-Eric
< At any rate, are the female DB-25 bulkhead connectors true RS-232 or som
< weirdie mutation like the console DB-9 port?
No, the PC DB9 is the mutant. ;) The DB25s are true RS232 with full
handshake.
< Also, I've got a DECMate III in the garage with no monitor or keyboard.
< But it's got an RX50 and some RD series drive. Obviously the RX50 can b
< moved to the MVII since it doesn't have one (but does have an RQDX3) but
< what about the RD series hard disk? I'd like to put it on the MVII for
< extra storage capacity but I seem to recall from playing with the
The RD can be used but you'll need the customer formatter to format it for
the RQDX3 instead of the DMIII controller.
< Also, although it includes Macro (of course) it includes NO other
< language development tools. Apparently it was a turnkey type system for
No basic?
< reading utility meters. Field service last logged-in in '92!!! And it'
< got 13000some blocks free on the disk. I'm tempted to get things like
< the GNU C binaries for it etc etc...and I always give in to that sort of
< temptation! =)
More disk, need more disk.
It's good little box. Add a scsi controller like the CMD units and hang a
real good sides disk... and wheee.
Allison
>Hey, Providence is not too far away.
Maybe I should head down that way some time with Allison...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hello - I just joined this list and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm an
avid classic computer collector and a big fan of the TRS-80/Tandy Color
Computers which were sold by Radio Shack. I have a homepage which is
dedicated to them:
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/coco.html
I have approximately 30 computers in my collection (if you include
'doubles'). Of interest are an Apple III and an Apple Lisa (Mac XL), an AT&T
Unix PC, Commodore Plus4, a backlit Apple Mac Portable (not the powerbook -
the very early one) and some odd little early computer called a "Micro
Professor". It has a chicklett keyboard - came from Japan and has a
built-in BASIC language, but not much else. Since money is tight right now
(and what spending money I do have usually goes to my Marklin model railway)
I'm more interested in picking up the cheaper collectibles - things like a
Commodore 16, Mattel Aquarius, Atari 800 (not xl) etc etc. Have you seen the
Altairs on Ebay lately! Wow, $10000 reserve on one of them. Hope to chat
with you all soon!
Markus Blumrich - mailto:ab594@sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca
Student: Physiology & Computer Science / University of Saskatchewan
http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ab594/Profile.html ICQ:12361373
"Who's the more foolish - the fool, or the fool who follows him?" - Obi-Wan
Kenobi
I have an old Tandy 1000TL that needs a HD. The one that is currently in
it is a Western Digital 20MB IDE (with stepper motor). Although this drive
is still operating, it is VERY slow. Does anyone have a 20, 30, or 40 MB
3.5" XT/XTA IDE drive (without stepper) that they'd like to part with?
ThAnX in advance,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:31:03 +0000
From: John Huddleston <jlhudd(a)sos.net>
Subject: The New MORBBS
Hi,
You may have heard of the old Morrow Owners Review Bulletin Board that
was run by Sypko Andrae for so many years until he transfered ownership
to Jay and John Huddleston of Anacortes, Washington. We had the MORBBS
for a couple years until cost became a problem and we were forced to
shutdown the MORBBS. But now there is a newer, more accessible, and
definetly cheaper MORBBS on the internet. The new board is hosted by
sos.net and there are two sections to the Morrow page. The first
section is located at http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/morrow.html and it is
designed to let you ask for help or for CPM related files from Jay's
huge archive. The second section of the page is the messageboard
itself. You can find the messageboard at
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/bbs/index.html. The messageboard works
through a CGI script written in the PERL programming language. You can
post messages on the board just like on the old bulletin board only
quicker. This way you can ask for help in a message and everyone who
reads it will be able to offer their services. The message board is
also useful for announcing any hardware, software, etc that is related
to Morrow computers and/or CPM software. You aren't just limited to
Morrow though. Anything you wish to discuss about old computers is
acceptable. There are going to be many helpful post on the message
board in the near future with links to helpful or interesting Morrow/CPM
websites. I hope that you are still interested in Morrows and old
computers and that will join us at our new messageboard soon! Thanks
for your time,
John Huddleston
the Morrow Online Homepage:
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/morrow.html
the Morrow Owners Review Online Messageboard:
http://www.sos.net/~jlhudd/bbs/index.html
----------
> From: Kees Stravers <pb0aia(a)iaehv.nl>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Philips XT with 768K
> Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 7:22 PM
>
> Those hard disks were very slow, and noisy too. They also suffer from
> sudden head stiction. You are lucky it is a Western Digital.
> Older machines had Miniscribe hard disks which were worse.
>
I've found that out. A 10MB MiniScribe that I in a Tandy 1000 (no suffix)
sounded like a weed whacker and started to smoke when it finally went bad.
> You can switch off the XT-IDE hard disk port with switch 8 of the
> DIP switches in the Philips XT and install a regular MFM disk controller
> and hard disk in the machine. Works like in any other XT.
>
> Kees
>
> --
>
> Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
> Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
>
> Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
>
Probably the same ex-MITS person who contacted me last weekend.
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 3:12 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Another Altair up for Auction
On Tue, 18 Aug 1998, Dellett, Anthony wrote:
> Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
Looks like the same machine. So, that means the record price for an
Altair is a mere $4213 (!). Probably some slick Altair dealer contacted
Ms. Lemay and offered her a shiny low-mileage Altair for only half of her
$12,100 bid.
-- Doug
Yeah, right.
This whole thing's a put-on, I'm convinced.
Jeff
At 05:08 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Same guy. Dunno, might be same machine. $10,000 reserve!
>
>Holycow!
>
>Tony
>
I was offered a NightHawk 5800 computer today. What the &*&% is it? I've
never heard of one. It was made by Harris Computer Systems and it's
supposed to have 16Mb, Memory tape unit, a 5802 processor, 64 Meg Local
Memory, 64 Meg Global Memeory, 2 slot front plane (front plane???), SCSSI
Interface (no that's not a typo), Eagle Eatha Net Card, 4 mm DAT drive and
two 1 G hard drives. The operating system and a LARGE pile of manuals are
included. Any one know anything about this? ANY idea what it's worth?
Is it usefull for anything?
Joe
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Larry Anderson [mailto:foxnhare@goldrush.com]
| Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 6:54 PM
| To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
| Subject: Re: C64 for $800
|
| just try
| to find docs for a PET MTU graphics board (like I am), I have a collection
of
| a lifetime.
Hmm, I'm pretty sure I have docs for that. What was the MTU again? I have
like ridiculously extensive PET docs including the service manuals and
service update notices, service test tapes & disks, etc.
Heck, come to think of it, I have a PET high res graphics board of some kind
in a box someplace. Is that what this thing is?
Kai
On Aug 18, 7:57, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Subject: RSX-11M v4.1
> OK, last night I tried copying the damaged RL02's that contain what is
> supposed to be a RSX-11M v4.1 distribution. Unfortunatly two of the
disks
> seem to be damaged. I was able to recover 3/4 of one, and boot it in the
> Supnik emulator, the other wouldn't even mount.
>
> Now, I've got a question about these packs, and thier labels.
>
> RSX-11M V4.1 |
> RSXM35 V1 | I was able to copy 8,638,976 bytes of
> RLUTIL V2 | 10,485,760. It will boot.
> Copied 06/19/84 | Fault light now comes on when try
to load
>
> RSX-11M V4.1
> EXCPRV V1
> HLPDCL V2
> Copied 06/19/84
>
> RSX-11M V4.1
> MCRSRC V1
> Copied 06/19/84
>
> RSX-11M V4.1 |
> ACSQ22 V1 | Fault light comes on when I try to load
it.
> UPDATE V2 |
> ACS MODS V3 |
> Copied 06/19/84 rev 06/14/84 |
>
> Unfortuntaly I suspect that the first pack is the most important, and
based
> on the SYSGEN documentation, I need the first three packs to do a SYSGEN.
> What on earth is the third pack?
MCR is the standard command line interpreter, prior to DCL, and that disk
is the source for building it.
> Also, is this the standard way for a RSX-11M distribution to be packaged?
No, it looks like you have an RL01 distribution (which IIRC came on 6
packs) but copied to RL02s, two RL01s to a pack. It's been a long time,
but I think RL02 distributions were 4 packs, called something like RSXM35
(that's a bootable baseline minimal system, with the SYSGEN stuff on it,
like yours), MAPSRC (sources to build a mapped system) UNMSRC (to build an
unmapped system) and the last pack had all the extra software (EDT, DCL,
and friends). The fourth pack you have is possibly an update and may not
be necessary. But my memory may be playing its usual tricks.
> Once I've got archival copies made of all this I'll be more willing to
play
> with the packs. On a positive note, I can play with the images in the
> emulator while copying them. I think I've still got over a dozen packs
to
> go through. I'll probably finish the RL02's tonite.
Best of luck! I suspect you have enough to rebuild the system, if you can
read the packs, and perhaps there are more amongst the ones you have yet to
check.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
>i started a new job last week; one of my duties is going thru a
>warehouse load (no joke) of older mac systems. everything from se30's to
>older powerPC machines. question is this: since they all are being
>scrapped and i cannot save them
Why can't you save them?
>anyone want me to pull some roms for them? or any other useful components?
let me know WHAT
>they are, and WHERE they are
How about a Power Mac motherboard or two? :-)
More realistically, I'd be interested in any PowerPC processors & ROMs.
Some of this stuff is probably more trouble to remove than its worth,
though. How much did you want for the componets?
Sincerely,
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
I'm passing this along from the Dead Media Collectorz list in case anyone
is interested in vintage calculators.
R.
From: "Seth D. Carmichael" <scarmike(a)tmn.com>
To: "Dead Media Project Collectors List!" <collectorz(a)lists.tmn.com>
Subject: [collectorz] FW: for collectorz
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:56:25 -0400
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Please respond directly to Nick: nbodley(a)tiac.net
Seth
***************************************
>Now this is sounding fun. One question, do you feed the output from the
>SLU to the input of the VT?
You should be able to do that... but the VT103 had some special
paddle board which plugged into the connector on the VT100
basic video board and which provided a connector (2x5) which
connects to something like an MXV11-B, and a second connector
which also attaches to the MXV11-B (or DLV11-J) and routes the
signals through to the external connector (if I remember
correctly - otherwise it provides a separate external
conenction).
I'll have to open up my VT103 at work one of these days to get
the info for you (like part numbers).
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
> Wow. I didn't know that anybody besides Commodore ever used XT IDE. I
have
> a couple of WD-98???-X drives, one in a Commodore Colt that I use for ROM
> burning. IIRC, WD made 20Mb and 40Mb XT IDE before moving on to AT IDE.
> Commodore even designed-in an XT-IDE port on their A2091 and A590 disk
> controllers for the A2000 and A500, respectively. The A590 did ship with
> 20Mb XT drives; the A2091 did not have the 40 pin connector soldered in
place.
> It does work; I have retrofitted one. They are slow.
>
> And, yes, the ST251/251-1 are both MFM. I use them on ancient DEC
hardware.
>
> -ethan
>
>
I believe the Tandy 1000 TL/2 and TL/3 (not sure about the TL/2) also had a
built-on XT-IDE controller. The TL that I have has a HardCard.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
(in his best Rodney King voice)
Can't we all just get along?
Actually, for me, Providence is quite a haul :)
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: William Donzelli [mailto:william@ans.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 1:54 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> > >Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users
> group with our
> > >raggedy group?
> >
> > I'd join...!
>
> Hey, Providence is not too far away.
>
> (Blatant RetroComputing Society ot Rhode Island plug).
>
> William Donzelli
> william(a)ans.net
>
Okay, which board do you have?
Jeff
At 12:25 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ethan:
>>
>> Try www.natinst.com. Far as I know national still supports prettyy much
all
>> of their hardware.
>
>When I first got the cards last year, I tried them. I couldn't find
>a reference to my board. I wasn't surprised (the board is over 10 years
old),
>so I stopped digging.
>
>Maybe they have added more to their support page recently.
>
>Thanks,
>
>-ethan
>
Ethan:
Try www.natinst.com. Far as I know national still supports prettyy much all
of their hardware.
At 09:15 AM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>> > I came up with an IEEE488 8-bit card, with drivers. Anyone want it?
>> >
>> > manney(a)lrbcg.com
>> > "Enough is abundance to the wise." -- Euripides
>
>What is the card? What drivers? I have a couple of 8-bit IEEE-488 cards
>and _no_ drivers. It's a standard, but old, National Instruments card. If
>you tell me the model number of yours, I'll check it against mine when I get
>home. I'd love drivers for it.
>
>-ethan
>
At 09:56 PM 8/17/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>OK, it's been killing me, so I've just gotta ask. What do you do with a
>C64 running at 20MHz? Play a *really* fast game of Ms. Pacman?
>
>-- Doug (from his 200MHz IMSAI 8080)
Tsk, tsk! ONLY 200mhz??? Didn't you see the IMSAI overclocking FAQ???
:)
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
< Well, Joan did want to start a club called Computer Preservationists of
< Massachusetts (CPM for short). Maybe this might be the time to get it
< goin'.
Sounds like a good thing. There are people in RI and south RI doing
this as well.
Allison
< then wire-wrap one slot AB<->CD... Also, when I did it, I went down
< to one of the Digital Stockrooms and picked up some specialized
< 'power strips' which were generally used for bussing DC on the
< backplane, but could also be used to connect signal pins. It was
< a copper strip which had alternating pin-sized holes and large
< holes which wouldn't contact the pin... Perfect for connecting
< corresponding pins of successive backplane slots...
I have a bunch of them still, for exactly that use! Handy for home made
backplanes!
Allison
< two minutes? that is slow... I can boot my TU-58 based system
< in 30 seconds... (I engineered an optimized TU58 many years
< ago when people within Digital were asking how to get it to boot
< faster). It involves specific placement of various RT-11
< files on one of the four recording tracks. For those who wanted
< the system to run faster once booted, you could additionally take
< the step of loading stuff into VM and rebooting it it...
Having done that (I have a system I can demonstrate) plus the VM: trick
it's possible to build a really nice system using TU58 only! It's in the
V5 RT11 doc set.
FYI for the 11/730 hackers the TU58 boot tape for that beast also has an
optimum order for faster booting.
< (depending on the rev of the 11/23... only Rev.C could
< do so).
I've found earlier revs do, but not all and they may fail diagnostics
while appearing to work normally. I try to reserve 11/23 (KDF11-A M8186)
to 256k unless I've verified it's a REV-C or later and tested it.
The later 11/23B (KDF11-B M8189) is Q22 and saves needing a boot rom/card.
They are common enough.
Allison
More like a crummy computer. I think the school had bought it used for $50
(or it was donated), and it wouldn't even run Win 3.1. It had Win 3.0 (1
MEG RAM). When I was looking at it, the power supply (this is from 1991)
pumped out a huge 32 watts. I'm surprised that the thing lasted as long as
it did.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Philips XT with 768K/heat
> Date: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 6:51 AM
>
>
> < Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan
> < working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY
ti
>
> The heat may have helped the fan fail but the do fail, the result is not
> good for some systems.
>
> Likely it was a crummy fan.
>
> Allison
>
The last VT103 I configured went to RCS/RI and it was tested with a
11/23B in it.
< Well, I always thought that RSX and RSTS/E were far
< better of with more memory. Also, with V5.0 of
< RT-11, the availability of 4 MBytes and a VM: was highly
< useful - not needed, but very nice. Of course, until
< recently, DEC memory boards were so expensive that
< more than 1/4 MByte was not worth while in any case as
< opposed to SIMMs with the PC. However, a half MByte
< board (M8067) is now so inexpensive that it is no longer
< a problem.
I have systems with 256k and more, with a hard disk having a ramdisk is
cute but not required. Doing a a non hacked system is far easier.
Also 4mb of DEC qbus ram (1mb cards) will severely load the BA11S boxes
I have never mind the Vt103 PS, I've done it. That box with 11/73, RQDX3,
DLV11j, LAV-11, RLV12, RXV211 and 4 memory cards overloaded the 340watt
PS! The disks were off seperate power. Heck the two RD52s and RX33
requires a 70W power supply.
< > A good package is a 11/23, 256kram, DLV11j, RQDX3, BDV11.
< > That gives you 4 serial ports, full memory without backplane mods,
< > RX50/RX33 floppy and MSCP hard disk (RDxx) and the BDV terminates
< > the bus plus supplies some of the desireable boots (no mscp).
<
< What hardware did you use to connect the RQDX3 to the RX50/RX33
< floppy drives? In general, I found the floppy to be far too slow
< and if I was jumping up the an RX33, for the same price (at current
< cost for a hard drive) I would prefer at least an RD51.
The BA123 disk distribution card M9058. I use both RX33 and RX50.
generally stuff for RX50 being more common I use that more though the
rx50 will read/write RX50. for a hard disk 30mb Quantum D540s (RD52)
as they are fast and reliable plus plenty of space. RD50, RD51, RD31,
RD32 are not worth the effort as they are slow or old.
< You can always power the disk drives with an auxiliary power
< supply from a PC. In that case, you can even have 2 hard
< drives and 2 floppies. Otherwise, with just the one hard
Danger Will Robinson. External MFM drives on seperate power means YOU
MUST POWER OFF THE DRIVE FIRST THEN THE SYSTEM. Failure to do so will
mean writing garbage to the disk at what ever track it's on. The fix is
easy reformat and reload the disk... Not something you want to do. It's
ok if they both power off at the same time. Many PC power supplies have
a switched outlet that can power the VT103.
< drive (under the tube), it is indeed on the edge of the PS
< if the VT103 supplies all the power. One other option I
Don't, the drives generate serious heat and that spot is poorly cooled.
< mentioned is that a SIGMA RQD11-B (MFM controller)
< uses about the same power as an RQDX3, but has BOOT
< ROMS. As a result, you can use just the dual 11/23 and
< no BDV11. Then there is enough internal power to run
That's handy but the disk is 30-37W and it's the back breaker. Going
with over 256k of ram invites the same problem. If you want a big system
get a decent box with adaquate cooling and power and use that.
< YES!! If run for a long time. But for short demos of
< an hour or less, the VT103 was highly effective. Most
< individuals who were familiar with the VT100 did not
< recognize the VT103. So when the demo was given,
< the first reaction was to ask about the computer - they
< saw only a VT100. We used to say that we had substituted
< clever squirrels inside the VT100 instead.
there were three differnt similar systems. PDT11/130 with TU58, VT103
and a MDS11-A. The latter two woere similar but slightly different
backplane.
< I even heard that someone had re-wired the backplane
< to allow a MicroVax II (ABCD slots for the first 2).
It would be easier to use a H9276 or other correct backplane in the
available space. Still the microvaxII and memory eats power in
a serious way.
< Now imagine if DEC had sprung the VT103 on the
< PC world as a PC at PC prices with a 150 watt power
Try more like a 300W ps to build want your talking about.
< supply (and a bigger fan) to easily allow hard drives under
< the tube. And later, had gone to the MicroVax II as
Why not the pro350/380, a well designed PDP-11 desktop system.
If you want a tiny vax get a VS2000 or one of the 3100 series.
< a standard option. The 10 year late DEC PCs would
< have been initially based on the PDP-11 and could
10 years late???? The Pro350 was in the market the same time as the PCxt
and the PDT11/150 predates the PC by a few years.
< then have used the VAX. The only thing lacking was
< a pricing model to compete with the XT and the AT
The PRO350 competed with a loaded PCxt with CGA color and a hard disk for
very similar $$$$. for similar $$$ inthe PCxt space was the Rainbow100.
< I understand that a total of 32 solder connections are
< required. I once saw the re-wired backplane. It
< seemed to have been done with wire-wrap wire
< since the solder points were so small.
The ones I did had longer WW pins on the backplane (BDV-11s) and I used
a standard bussing strip I have. Saves megga pain WW'ing a backplane.
Allison
>> < If anyone has a VT103 and needs some help with
>> < how to set it up as well to convert to a 22 bit backplane,
>> < likely both Megan Gentry and I are able to supply the
>> < necessary technical information.
>>
>> I've built a few and have data as well.
>>
>> Allison
>>
>Someone -- post the wire wrap info...
If I remember correctly, you buss pins BC1, BD1, BE1 and BF1...
With a Q/CD backplane, that would mean just four sets of
wires down the AB side (BC1-BC2-BC3, etc, BD1-BD2-BD3, etc, etc)
For a Q/Q backplane, that would mean
BC1-DC1-DC2-BC2-BC3-DC3, etc (maintaining the serpentine)
BD1-DD1-DD2-BD2-BD3-DD3, etc...
BE1...
BF1...
or you could do what I did... bus the AB and CD sides separately,
then wire-wrap one slot AB<->CD... Also, when I did it, I went down
to one of the Digital Stockrooms and picked up some specialized
'power strips' which were generally used for bussing DC on the
backplane, but could also be used to connect signal pins. It was
a copper strip which had alternating pin-sized holes and large
holes which wouldn't contact the pin... Perfect for connecting
corresponding pins of successive backplane slots...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Well, Joan did want to start a club called Computer Preservationists of
Massachusetts (CPM for short). Maybe this might be the time to get it
goin'.
Tony (who runs off to find a home for the Data General arriving in
september)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 12:43 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> < Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users
> group with our
> < raggedy group?
>
> Tony,
>
> That may be a good idea. Basic meetings would be the first step.
>
> Allison
>
OK, last night I tried copying the damaged RL02's that contain what is
supposed to be a RSX-11M v4.1 distribution. Unfortunatly two of the disks
seem to be damaged. I was able to recover 3/4 of one, and boot it in the
Supnik emulator, the other wouldn't even mount.
Now, I've got a question about these packs, and thier labels.
RSX-11M V4.1 |
RSXM35 V1 | I was able to copy 8,638,976 bytes of
RLUTIL V2 | 10,485,760. It will boot.
Copied 06/19/84 | Fault light now comes on when try to load
RSX-11M V4.1
EXCPRV V1
HLPDCL V2
Copied 06/19/84
RSX-11M V4.1
MCRSRC V1
Copied 06/19/84
RSX-11M V4.1 |
ACSQ22 V1 | Fault light comes on when I try to load it.
UPDATE V2 |
ACS MODS V3 |
Copied 06/19/84 rev 06/14/84 |
Unfortuntaly I suspect that the first pack is the most important, and based
on the SYSGEN documentation, I need the first three packs to do a SYSGEN.
What on earth is the third pack?
Also, is this the standard way for a RSX-11M distribution to be packaged?
On a semi positive note, the drives (2 RL02, and 2 RL01) came with 2 RL02
packs and a RL01 pack in them. The two RL02's contain a bootable system
that appears to have the Whitesmith C on it. I'm not sure about the RL01.
I'm still hoping the Whitesmith C distribution on RL01 is OK.
Once I've got archival copies made of all this I'll be more willing to play
with the packs. On a positive note, I can play with the images in the
emulator while copying them. I think I've still got over a dozen packs to
go through. I'll probably finish the RL02's tonite.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
Dare we attempt to create a Boston area computer users group with our
raggedy group?
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: allisonp(a)world.std.com [mailto:allisonp@world.std.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 11:06 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> < If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
> < lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand,
> Its alot of
> < work.
>
> I wasn't thinking of a real convention... more like a remote tailgate
> party.
>
> Allison
>
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 14:31:42 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
> Subject: C64 for $800
>
> I'm no Commodore expert, but is there really anything in this lot that's
> worth more than a coupla bux, or is this just the alex-factor at work
> again?
Actually there's quite a lot of really good Commodore 64/128 stuff there...
> 1- C128-D Computer, with keyboard and internal 1571 disk drive. Jiffy Dos is built in with the switch
> on the front of the machine. In GREAT condition.
the 128D is a nice computer when you find one that works reliably. $30
> 1- Super CPU 128 with 8 Megs installed. Will put the 128-D at 20 mhz.
This is a 20 Mghz accellerator for the 128, it was just put on the market this
year. Probably good for $150 alone.
> 1- CMD RamLink with 12 Megs, includes the HDD Cable and battery backup.
Nice REU unit, does a RAM disk with it's memory and allows for fast parallel
access to CMD Hard Drives. Another $100.
> 1- 1581 Disk Drive... with Jiffy Dos
Somewhat hard to get maybe $40 at best.
> 1- CMD FD-2000 Disk Drive. 1.6 meg floppies yeah!
Improvement over the 1581, lets you also use 1.44 md disks and with right
software access IBM disks too. $75.
> 1- CMD 2 GIGAbyte Hard Drive that looks CHERRY New!
A CMD Hard Drive for your Commodore 64/128 is a must for the commodore fan,
Probably about $200 at most.
> 1- Commodore 2002 40/80 Color Monitor
Nice Monitor, can be used on Amigas too... $40.
> 1-1541 Disk Drive... Yes, WITH Jiffy Dos
> 1- 1571 Disk Drive with.... Jiffy DOS!
> 1- C64c Computer
Ok, I guess... Not too terribly exciting there... Maybe $50
> 1- Action Replay Cartridge (believe its v4 or 5)
Get $15 probably from me, I prefer Super Snapshot myself.
> At least 30+ Origional Programs
'Paid for Software' A buck a piece without knowing what it is... $30
> A whole GEOS COLLECTION, Origional in boxes.
I'm not much of a GEOS Fan. I could resell it for probably $20... Though
with an original GEOS 64 2.0 disk I coulde upgrade to the recent GEOS upgrade
- Wheels, which sounds pretty hot.
> Over 300+ 5.25 floppies, all kinds o stuff.
Read Pirated I'd go up to $30 hoping there would be a few gems of 64 software
lore hidden away.
> Once again, this is a once in a lifetime Commodore Collection. If you can pry this from my hands you've
> gotten the BEST Commodore Hardware that has ever been available anywhere.
Lifetime, no, Heck I could collect that all in a year at a fraction, just try
to find docs for a PET MTU graphics board (like I am), I have a collection of
a lifetime.
> Everything... Is in VERY GOOD working order, many things are in fantastic shape. No junk
> whatsoever. (Well I didn't go thru all 300+ floppies, treat those as "BLANKS"
>
> I should mention, many manuals and software for the CMD items ARE INCLUDED! The FD, the HDD, THE RL and the SCPU 128.
>
> Now all you gotta do is....
> Show me da Money! :)
Total about $765 dollars, not to say I would bid on it, but, it is a nice list
of equipment, and the current price is not all that out there. You can tell
by the list the guy was either a Commodore BBS sysop or heavily into GEOS,
only those two groups buy heavily into RAMLinks and mass storage units. I
Don't recognize the name Ice BBS though.
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
< Would excessive heat caused the bearings in the fan to freeze? The fan
< working when the computer was turned on, but was totally frozen (VERY ti
The heat may have helped the fan fail but the do fail, the result is not
good for some systems.
Likely it was a crummy fan.
Allison
I also have a neat XT. It's not a Phillips, but a Tandy 1000. It has 768K
RAM, and a 12MHz 286 processor. Only, I still have the problem of not
being able to access the upper memory. Being a Tandy, it's even harder to
find a driver. Another setback is it's HD. It's a 20MB Western digital -
and slow as a turtle. Does anyone, by any chance, have a spare
XT-compatible IDE HD without a stepper motor driving the heads??
ThAnX,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
> It was a neat machine for an XT. I don't recall if I ever checked to see
if it
> was using that extra memory or if it had any SW with it. My friend will
be
> delighted to know that he can squeeze out a little extra ram for
memory-hungry
> DOS programs.
>
> ciao larry
>
> lwalker(a)interlog.com
< That, is not the HD heat problems...cooling air was poorly done in
< both installation and case design. Old Compaq Deskpro cases have
< that in mind. ST225 got real hot too so need to watch that on any
< 5.25" hds and insure cooling is good.
Amen to that. Heat is a bad thing for computers or their peripherals.
Most suffer from to much heat, and too much heat around the disk stack.
< Those ST251's have rapidly died out around here,
Actually I'm still running one, in a Leading Edge model D Xt box that
does cool exceptionally well. The power supply (and the fan in it) is
behind the disk stack and exceptionally well cooled. I put a second fan
in the 486/66 for that reason... to hot.
The altair taught me well about heat... and lousy air flow.
Allison
< If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
< lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand, Its alot of
< work.
I wasn't thinking of a real convention... more like a remote tailgate
party.
Allison
A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
share it with you...
This weekend I finally got my Tektronix 4052 graphics computer loading
and saving on a Commodore 8050 disk drive. The problems:
Commodore's weird handling of IEEE-488 protocol, especially with OPEN
and CLOSE. This requires bit 7 (the 128s bit) to be set when sending a
secondary address; bit 4 - usually the 16s bit of the address - tells
the drive whether it's an open or a close.
This was easily solved - the Tektronix WBYTE statement gives full
control over such things.
But the Tek is designed as a tape based machine. You FIND a file on the
tape and type OLD to load it. The machine then resets and loads the
program.
On a disk, you WBYTE @40,240: some bytes to specify the file name. But
if you type OLD @8,0: it asserts IFC during the reset, thus causing the
drive to have forgotten all about your program by the time it comes to
load it...
So I toyed with the idea of cutting the IFC line in a suitable cable.
But then I came across the APPEND statement. "APPEND @I/O address:line
number" loads a program without resetting, renumbering it to start at
the specified line. Neat.
So I now have a program to display the directory of the disk, prompt you
for a filename and APPEND the file on the end of itself. It then
performs an INIT (initialise variables, IFC and things) and drops into
the program.
Saving is easier, so less automated. You type something like
WBYTE @40,241:48,58,80,82,79,71,82,65,77,32,78,65,77,69,-13
WBYTE @63:
SAVE @8,1
WBYTE @40,225,63:
Not perfect, but it works. If anyone has an 8050 at the VCF, I'll
happily demonstrate!
Now, has anyone got a PET hard drive? And, for that matter, has anyone
got a MUPET system for sale?
Philip.
OK, I've read through the entry on the DLV11-F in the "Microcomputer
Interfaces Handbook" (I love finally having some documentation). According
to it this card supports either a 20ma current loop interface or
EIA-standard lines, but doesn't include modem control.
My first question is, am I correct in assuming that I can attach a VT100 to
it with the proper serial cable? I know I could use the 20ma current loop,
IF I had a VT100 with that interface.
Anyway does anyone have the pinout for a BC01V-X or BC05C-X modem cable?
My guess is that it's a 40-pin ribbon connector on one end and a DB25
connector on the other. Unfortunatly I don't seem to have the pinout for
the 40-pin connector or I'd see about putting this together.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
I acquired a PDP-8/L not too long ago, and in discussion with the
original owner he advised I have a fire extinguisher on hand when I power
it up.
That concerns me, as I'd rather not burn up a PDP-8/L (or the house).
What can I do to ensure the -8/L wont catch fire (or do anything else
equally bad) when I turn it on? I don't have a very good knowledge of
electronics, but I can certainly open it up and examine boards.
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
>>Don't forget the most important thing, you can REALLY control the spark
>>curve :)
>
> Yes and the transmission shift points in some cars.
What?!? Took me a couple of minutes to work out what you're even
talking about, there.
These (mostly non-electronic) analogue computers were quite popular in
larger cars (in the UK, anything with more than 2.5 litres - 150 cu. in.
- of engine) in the early 'seventies, but they were inefficient and
unreliable and I never use them if I can avoid it...
I refer of course to automatic gearboxes. If you want control over the
transmission shift points, get a manual gearbox with electric overdrive.
Every time!
(Hmmm. Thinks... I don't think I've seen an electric overdrive on a
car made later than 1980. But automatic gearboxes are still alive and
kicking. It's a strange world...)
Philip.
Uncle Roger asked:
>A quick question... How many people know how to work on their cars? How
>many drive older vehicles without as much "black-box" stuff?
'68 Plymouth Sport Suburban (= 3-seat Fury wagon *not* the Chevy Suburban).
I'll work on the stuff that makes it go but I let professionals
handle the stuff that makes it stop or turn.
I sometimes fantasize about a medium big terrorist nuke at very
high altitude using EMP to shut down all the microprocessor-controlled cars
in the state. I don't think that would stop my car with its points and
coil. 'Course, the road will still be jammed full of inert new cars....
....and my classic computer collection will be garbage! Auuugghh!!!
I don't fanatasize about that very often.
- Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Asteroids headed toward planets
inhabited by beings that don't have
technology adequate to stop them:
Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.
At 06:47 PM 8/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> Whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to the pricing of
>> Altairs as collectibles.
>
>Not at all. It's the *perceived* significance and rarity that makes these
Exactly! That perception need not have any basis in fact.
>Bill Gates first wrote BASIC for the Schmaltztair rather than the Altair,
I'm not sure how much Gates has to do with the perceived value of the
Altair; it may be that people just think of it as the "first".
>those brilliant bastards at Ty came up with a scheme for artificial
Doncha wish ya was one of them? 8^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 11:30 AM 8/15/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I don't think ZDNet will post my comments, as mine started with:
>
>Piracy YES. Commodore 64 NOT!
Actually, they did; it was my comment that didn't get posted. I berated ZD
(et al) for proclaiming a computer dead simply because they do not receive
any advertising income from its users.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 04:11 AM 8/15/98 GMT, you wrote:
>inflation of the price of something that should belong to people who
>respect it as other than a "collectors item". Now I'm sure this
Why does this idea always come from the people who don't have/can't afford
the objet in question? If works of art, classic computers, '56 corvettes,
etc., should all belong to the people, then maybe we should all switch to
socialism. I have no problem with that. Everyone on the list could then
turn over their classic computers to the state, and take 3 or 4 homeless
people into their apartments. Certainly, if old computers should be shared
amongst all, then more so should food and shelter.
On the other hand, if we want to stick with the system we've got (and if
you've got a roof over your head that doesn't leak, you're doing pretty
well with this system) then we have to accept that artwork, cool cars, hot
babes (and hunks), and computers all go to those who can afford them, and
we need to quit whining about it and work to get ahead so we can be one of
those who can afford a $12K altair.
In the meantime, there are plenty of other computers out there to play with
and if you're just interested in it as a technical toy, Compupro's were
much better, or you can design your own S-100 box. And I doubt someone who
paid $12k for an Altair is going to use it as a boat anchor or flowerpot,
so don't worry about its survival.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
I dunno. I was thinking more in terms of hardware
availability, and actual adherence to the IEEE
standard. I used to play with GPIB alot, but that
was some years ago . . .
Jeff
At 03:58 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 01:45 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
>>>share it with you...
>>
>><Story on how our intrepid hero kludged Commo and Tek Snipped>
>>
>>Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
>
> Will these use HP drives? Has anybody tried using one on a Tek or PET?
>
> Joe
>
On Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:40:15 +0200 (CEST), Jason writes:
cl> Another setback is it's HD. It's a 20MB Western digital -
cl> and slow as a turtle. Does anyone, by any chance, have a spare
cl> XT-compatible IDE HD without a stepper motor driving the heads??
Those hard disks were very slow, and noisy too. They also suffer from
sudden head stiction. You are lucky it is a Western Digital.
Older machines had Miniscribe hard disks which were worse.
You can switch off the XT-IDE hard disk port with switch 8 of the
DIP switches in the Philips XT and install a regular MFM disk controller
and hard disk in the machine. Works like in any other XT.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
> >
> > Yeah. All the docs would be cool. The thing that really
> bugs me is that
> > I dont remember how to boot one :)
> >
> > Sure did meet Allison, she's still got a Compupro RAM card floating
> > around somewhere for me. Since we work mere blocks from
> each other, it
> > shouldn't be tough to get it from her.
> >
> > We can meet up at the Sept flea somewhere, I'll have my PDP
> collecting
> > girlfriend in tow.
> >
> > I actually want to entertain the idea of maybe joining up
> with the west
> > coast folks to see if we can get a VCF together for us east
> coasters.
> > Hell, cant be any worse than running a Japanese Animation or Sci-Fi
> > convention (both of which I have done in the past).
> >
> > Tony
>
> We should consider doing it with the Trenton Computer Festival
> http://www.tcf.net which was full of old stuff in the good
> old days -- but
> it's been moving to newer stuff (and PC's) lately. I haven't seen an
> 8 or 11 there for a couple of years.
>
> I've seen Sun3/4's, DecStations, some old PC stuff in
> addition to the current
> stuff.
>
> Bill
>
If people out here in the east are really interested, I'm willing to
lend my convention experience... Lemme warn ya beforehand, Its alot of
work.
Tony
At 07:14 PM 8/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>A minor success story compared with some I read here, but I wanted to
>share it with you...
<Story on how our intrepid hero kludged Commo and Tek Snipped>
Maybe you would have been better off using an HP IEEE disk drive:
1. They're really common (at least, here they are)
2. You can get floppy, Winchester, or Tape
3. IEEE implementation is a little more 'standard'
But then again, mebbe you *need* to read commo disks with this
thing. Either way; well done, guy. Don 'cha love twiddling
those bits?
In this neck of the woods anyway, Commodore IEEE related 'stuff'
is pretty scarce . . .
Jeff
< As for noise, yes. It's noisy by today's standards. All of the old
< drives were touchy WRT handling. I didn't consider it more so than
< any other 8 year old drive.
The ST251 is easily over 12 years and known for spindle problems.
It runs real hot. Not a great drive compared the Quantum d540 (31mb)
that is voicecoil(fast), reliable and known to be very unfussy about
handling. Also the ST251 was very flakey compared to it's 20mb
counterpart the st225. Not all were touchy WRT to handling. The biggest
problems is that between new developments and company turnovers some
really poor drives made it out the door due to design errors or worse
poor quality control.
I still use st506, st412 and st225s but NOT st251s. I also have some 7
Quantum D540s that refuse to die in my PDP-11s, vax, and CP/M systems.
Allison
A recent storm blew a tree over and into my garage. It so happens
that I had an computer near the spot where the tree went through
the garage. Although not physically damaged by the tree, there was
a lot of water damage to the computer and especially the monitor.
Being an older machine, I am not sure how to place a value on it
for insurance purposes. If anyone out there has seen anything
recent on the machine as to what they are selling for,
I would appreciate sharing of that info.
The computer is an IBM RT Model 135, Type 6150. It has a 5 1/4 floppy,
and two hard drives (100MB & 300MB), plus the usual video and
network card.
The monitor is an IBM Model/Type 5081-19, 19" color with RGB inputs.
I am not trying to come up with some inflated value for this thing
to take advantage of the insurance company, just a reasonable fair
value to settle the claim. The machine worked fine before I parked
it in the garage. I know that there is probably cases where the
machines have just been thrown or given away, but would like to get
some compensation for it, if nothing else for what was a working
19" color monitor.
Thanks in advance for any helpful info.
Mike Thompson
mzthompson(a)aol.com
My profile's on my III's can't be accessed through Prodos, but need a disk
called catalyst to get to the drive. If you need a copy email me
personally.
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Spence <ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 8:45 PM
Subject: Apple III & Profile
>
>Greetings,
>
>I finally got around to trying the Profile hard drive someone gave me,
>with my Apple III, but I can't get it to work. I haven't tried
>formatting, but I wan't to leave that as a 'last resort', in case there's
>something useful on the drive.
>
>I opened up the drive when I first got it, to see what's inside. The
>actual drive mechanism is a full-height 5.25" jobbie, and IIRC it's 5MB.
>I don't remember who the manufacturer was.
>
>I power up the drive first, and wait until the READY light stops blinking.
>I have no Apple III docs, I just 'guessed' that that was the proper
>procedure. I don't know if it is yet.
>
>I then boot up the III with the SOS 1.3 Utilities disk. I've used the
>configuration program to make .PROFILE active. The configuration file
>reports the following:
>
>item field value
> 1 - Device Name................ .PROFILE
> 2 - Device Type................ $D1 Block, Read, Write ( range
00..FF )
> Formatter present; NonRemovable
> 3 - Device Subtype............. $02 ( range
00..FF )
> 4 - Driver Status.............. ACTIVE
> 5 - Comment
> Apple /// SOS Profile Driver (C) Copyright 1981, Apple Computer
Inc.
> 6 - Configuration Block data
>
> Slot Number................ 04
> Unit Number................ $00
> Manufacturer ID............ $0001 Apple
> Block Count................ $2600 (9728)
> Version ID................. 1.00
>
>I can't edit the configuration block data, though. If I go down to item 6
>and hit RETURN, I get to the "Edit Driver Configuration Block" screen,
>which looks like it should have at least 16 values on it. It only
>displays "[FF]" at location 00, though, and although it says I can use
>arrows to go to other values, the arrows don't do anything.
>
>If I go to the "Device handling commands" section from the main menu, and
>attempt to Verify .PROFILE, the READY light on the Profile blinks, there
>is a clicking noise, and the READY light goes out. The program reports
>".profile - Volume not found". The READY light stays out for a while,
>blinks a few times, then comes back on and stays on.
>
>If I go to "List devices configured", it pauses when it gets to .PROFILE,
>and reports "(no directory)", and the drive behaves exactly as with
>Verify.
>
>It's possible the drive just needs to be formatted, but as I said, I don't
>want to do that until I'm sure there's nothing salvageable on it.
>
>I'm not even sure I've got the cabling right. I assumed it takes a
>straight-through 25-pin cable from the ProFile controller to the drive
>unit. No twists or turns along the way?
>
>Also, I've got two Profile controllers, one in slot 3 and one in slot 4.
>I coulfn't get it to work at all from the one in slot 3, simply because it
>seems to have been preconfigured to look at slot 4.
>
>Any helpful info will be appreciated.
>
>Hopefully I don't get frustrated and try formatting the unit before I get
>a reply. :)
>
>
>Doug Spence
>ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca
>http://alcor.concordia.ca/~ds_spenc/
For something this old, (and worthless?) you can't really put a price on it.
I have one also, but really has no value to anyone but myself. $100 maybe? If
you don't keep the machine, i sure could use a keyboard...
In a message dated 98-08-17 09:51:22 EDT, you write:
>The computer is an IBM RT Model 135, Type 6150. It has a 5 1/4 floppy,
>and two hard drives (100MB & 300MB), plus the usual video and
> network card.
>The monitor is an IBM Model/Type 5081-19, 19" color with RGB inputs.
>I am not trying to come up with some inflated value for this thing
>to take advantage of the insurance company, just a reasonable fair
> value to settle the claim.
>Has anybody heard of the Imsai Vdp 40 machine? What is it, and
how many have been made?
Not sure how many were made, but the VDPs came out in the late 70's,
around '78 or '79 as I remember. I bought several to use as special
purpose POS terminals in a casino. They were in a "standard" size
IMSAI/S-100 case, but they had a short motherboard (8 slot? have to
look) and bays for two full height 5.25" floppies. Typically they came
with an IMSAI 8085 CPU card, a two board floppy controller (not very
reliable), PerSci floppies, and a 64K DRAM memory board. The power
supply was scaled down from the big 500 watt version, plus it had an
extra regulator board for the floppy power. There was no front panel,
just two buttons, RESET and INT (I think this was connected to one of
the S-100 interrupt lines), and a power switch.
IIRC there were three basic models, the /40, /42, and/44. The 44 was
the high end, full 64K and the fast PerSci disks. Just before IMSAI
folded, they were offering a hard drive interface to some type of 5MB
top loading drive (I think it was some CDC drive equivalent to the DEC
RL02), at least the salesman called and tried to sell me some, but I
never actually saw them. IMSAI was famous for it's vaporware.
System software was CP/M 2 with NED (aka WordMaster), a nice video
terminal oriented editor.
I still have one, though it does need a little work on the motherboard.
How I got it was an interesting story in itself. Originally I had
bought four of them for a customer, in late '78, just before IMSAI
folded. After they were installed I didn't have too much contact with
the customer, but I knew they were in use for several years. About 12
years later a friend of mine came over one night, dumped a VDP40 on my
table and said I could have it. He had paid $5 for it at a yard sale,
knew I had some IMSAIs, thought I might want it. I opened it up, and to
my suprise found the custom serial card I had wired for the original
customer still in there, it was one of the original VDPs I had bought.
No idea how it wound up at a yard sale.
Jack Peacock
I've been trying to make an archive copy of my Mindset
software, because all of the commercial software for
the Mindset requires the original disk to be inserted
before running, including Microsoft GW Basic !
Does anyone have (successful) experience copying Mindset
disks, or know of a real kick butt copy program for the
IBM PC?
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
Guys:
I just wanna thank Seth and Allison for advising me on the uVax I was
contemplating.
The guy wanted $75 (which seemed reasonable), but I decided not to enter
the VAX
arena at this time. I have way to many things on the stove as it is.
Besides, after much soul searching, I've come to the conclusion that I'm
not really
a VMS kinda guy.
BTW-- I met Tim Hotze IRL this weekend. He's a nice kid. But since he's
moving
overseas, he can't bring all of the hardware he wants with him! Bummer.
He'll
have fun with the Apple ]['s I got for him, though.
L8r.
Jeff
This was a slow week. Not that I didn't find a lot but I was running out
of money! I did pick up *SEVEN* HP 64100 Logic Developement Systems.
And a HP 8180 pattern generator with a 8181 extender with all the cables
and manuals. I passed up a HP Touch Screen II and a HP 9826 and several HP
9000 300 series computers.
The HP 64100 LDS dates from the early '80s but HP is still making a
similar machine. These look like an oversize RS model 1s with a tape drive
to the right of the monitor and a opening to the right of the keyboard. The
opening is used to install an optional EPROM burner socket. The main unit
has slots for 9 expansion cards for logic analyzers, various CPU emulators,
extra memory, etc. I will probably keep one, the rest are up for grabs if
anyone wants them. I will charge a reasonable price to cover the cost of
packing and taking to UPS (Gag! I hate that place!) But be warned they are
bigger than a model 1 and weigh about 75 pounds bare. They're located in
Florida so you can figure out shipping. I don't have any of the plug in
emulators, etc but I do have two boxs of manuals. Most/ all of these will
be scrapped if no one wants them, they're too big to keep around.
Joe
Yeah. All the docs would be cool. The thing that really bugs me is that
I dont remember how to boot one :)
Sure did meet Allison, she's still got a Compupro RAM card floating
around somewhere for me. Since we work mere blocks from each other, it
shouldn't be tough to get it from her.
We can meet up at the Sept flea somewhere, I'll have my PDP collecting
girlfriend in tow.
I actually want to entertain the idea of maybe joining up with the west
coast folks to see if we can get a VCF together for us east coasters.
Hell, cant be any worse than running a Japanese Animation or Sci-Fi
convention (both of which I have done in the past).
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Stek [mailto:bobstek@ix14.ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Monday, August 17, 1998 10:10 AM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: RE: Tony - SOL docs and MIT flea market
>
>
> Hey, Tony -
>
> Give me some time to make copies, and the SOL docs will
> be yours. Should I
> assume you also want the actual kit construction details, or
> will the theory
> of operation, schematics, etc. be sufficient?
>
> Yesterday was my first visit to the MIT flea market,
> too. Did you meet
> Allison? I bought a great new Integrand cabinet/power supply
> from her. I
> think I saw everything you bought except for the Osborne
> Executive (which I
> would have bought had I seen it first!) - I just have more
> self-restraint
> (or perhaps less money <g>) Perhaps we could go together in
> September. It
> may not be VCF 2.0, but it's what we got!
>
> Bob Stek
> bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
>
At 05:37 PM 8/15/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>$12K too much for you to pay for an Altair? OK, here's a guy that made a
>$25 Altair clone:
And don't forget, the C source and Windows executables to Altair and
IMSAI emulators are available on my web site.
I've put them there in the hopes of attracting someone who'd like
to verify their emulation, supply source code to bootstraps or
example programs, add an emulated ASR-33 for "reading" pretend
tapes and viewing output, sound effects, etc.
- John
Jefferson Computer Museum <http://www.threedee.com/jcm>
Hey, Tony -
Give me some time to make copies, and the SOL docs will be yours. Should I
assume you also want the actual kit construction details, or will the theory
of operation, schematics, etc. be sufficient?
Yesterday was my first visit to the MIT flea market, too. Did you meet
Allison? I bought a great new Integrand cabinet/power supply from her. I
think I saw everything you bought except for the Osborne Executive (which I
would have bought had I seen it first!) - I just have more self-restraint
(or perhaps less money <g>) Perhaps we could go together in September. It
may not be VCF 2.0, but it's what we got!
Bob Stek
bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
I came to own a scanner made by The Complete PC, Inc. Natrually there
isn't any software with the device do anyone here know where I could
find a program to use this thing? I know this isn't quite 10 years old
but in '99 it will be so could we bend the rules this time?
OK, this is starting to get interesting. I've got a box labled VT100
boards, and it's definitely part of the guts of this terminal (the terminal
works as a terminal).
The terminal has had it's front nameplate removed (probably doesn't mean
anything, they were all this way). On the back is a Digital tag declaring
it to be a VT100-AA. Next to that is a ARC (Agency Records Control, Inc.
of Bryon, Texas) declaring to be a Model ART 01.
The box has the following:
M7270 - KD11-HA - 11/03 CPU Board (dual)
M8021 - MRV11-BA - UV ROM/RAM (dual)
M7949 - LAV11 - LA180 Line Printer Interface (dual)
_Another_ Xebec controller (Wierd disk I think) (Quad)
ARC DFV-11A (Quad)
ARC EIA Switch two 2x5 connectors, 2 switches (RUN/HALT and OVRD/NORM)
1 Vector Plugboard (prototyping board) unused, though the bag has been opened.
I the ARC EIA goes in the options slot on the VT100 board. I think it's
third party version of the card that Megan mentioned in a post today. It
has one of the cables and it's 2x5 pin a connector on both ends.
I don't know if all these board belong to this system or not, I'm pretty
sure that the plug board doesn't.
The MRV11-BA has 256 words of RAM, and 2 1k ROMS
I dug through the manuals I've got, but couldn't come up with anything on
what on earth a DFV-11A is.
Off the top of my head I'd say I'm missing a SLU, and I need a disk controller.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
At 08:45 PM 8/9/98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote:
>That said, I'm no Tandy 1000 expert, but something tells me you missed
>where the serial port is on the back.
Errr, I was pretty thorough. That's why I set it back down, because I saw
no way to hook a modem to it.
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
I'll be unsubscribed for a few days to get Linux up and running on my
rebuilt workstation. I'll be back as soon as I get the dialup and E-mail
client running.
Nobody kill anyone while I'm gone, OK? ;-)
May you always have sun to play in and money to play with.
> From: "kroma" <kroma(a)worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Commodore 64 Returns???
>
> Check out this article at ZDNet
> http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/zdnn_smgraph_display/0,3441,2128102,00.ht…
I don't think ZDNet will post my comments, as mine started with:
Piracy YES. Commodore 64 NOT!
This computer is a lame attempt of a failing PC clone manufacturer to
monopolize on the nostalgia of users and an internet fiasco.
I summed up how not a 64 it was given it has NO 64 interfaces (save for the
keyboard) so you cannot hook any 64 peripherals on it (joysticks, light pens,
REUs, not even 1541 disk drives). And it was merely an encouragement for
owners to download pirated commercial Commodore-64 disk images off of the internet.
Also I added: it may run 64 software, but in no way will it give the owner the
reassurance or feeling that they actually 'own' a Commodore 64.
---
I think this company is gonna have legal problems from places such as
Broderbund and Eletronic Arts (or more likely CMD, who has alot of ownership
of 64 licenses) if they actually do sell some of em...
--
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (300-2400bd) (209) 754-1363
Visit my Commodore 8-Bit web page at:
http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/commodore.html
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
At 11:40 PM 8/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Aug 1998, Tony Duell wrote:
>> > A quick question... How many people know how to work on their cars? How
>> > many drive older vehicles without as much "black-box" stuff?
> - - -
>> When I learn to drive I intend to get a car with (as R.A. Pease said)
>> 'the right number of computers controlling the engine - none' !
>
>I'm kind of surprised to hear that attitude around here! ;) I've never
>been able to touch a carburetor without f**ing it up. Fixing, let alone
>tuning one, seems to be black magic.
>
>EFI on the other hand is logical; if you can follow directions and run a
>DVM, you can fix it!
So are carburators. You just have to study how they work and learn what
part does what and when. I can make a Carter AFB do anything including
sing. You should hear two of those on a 426 Hemi at WOT!
And if you tweak the engine for more efficiency,
>many of them automatically compensate -- no need to swap out jets and
>other mechanical parts by trial end error.
Yes but I can still swap a jet faster than I can burn an EPROM! The big
advantage of the EFI is that it's more precise than a carburator, can
monitor and adjust for more conditions and employs feed back sensors for
even more precise control.
>
>And if you want to get hard-core and do your own mods, those "black boxes"
>are just embedded microprocessors with a relatively small program. Many
>are off the shelf chips w. documented instrution sets. A few talented &
>adventuresome folks have even reverse-hacked some proprietary ones; like
>Clark Steppler of Jim Wolf Technology who can make a Nissan EFI computer
>do almost anything.
>
>So back to the original question: cars are my main hobby, and I'm all for
>electronics. My 122 cubic-inch Nissan econo-box turns mid 14 second runs
>at the drag strip; akin to getting a MIP out of one of 'dem Altairs. Yee
>ha :)
Yeah, just stuff in a P II mobo!
Another motor-head!
>
> -wayne
>
>
>
>
>At the risk of turning you into more of an appreciator, here is how to
run
>Trek80 on your SOL:
>
>1. Assuming that you have your cassette player properly attached to the
SOL,
>press the "play" button - the tape won't start until the SOL tells it
to.
>2. Make sure your CAPS LOCK in on. Then at the '>' prompt enter XEQ
><return>.
>3. Alternatively, enter GET. After a few moments the SOL will respond
with
>something like 'TREK80 0000 23AB' (the beginning and end addresses).
Then
>enter EX 0 and you are aboard the Enterprise.
>
>BTW, I would make a copy of the tape rather than using the original.
Old
>tape literally get flakey, and I've had to replace the pressure pad on
>several of my original PT tapes.
>
>And if you like Trek80 as an arcade game, you must try TARGET by Steve
>Dompier. It was almost always used as an attention getter in its demo
mode
>by PT dealers. You fire missles at 'airplanes' and if you play an AM
radio
>nearby, you can hear the sound effects of missle launches, explosions,
and
>falling debris.
>
>email me with your address if you would like xerox copies of Trek80,
Target,
>or most SOL documentation (though I don't have FOCAL docs or a copy of
that
>tape - are you listening, Frank?)
>
>Bob Stek - Keeper of lost SOLs
>
>bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
Thanks, Bob. Looks like you may be getting me aboard the
Starship Enterprise after all. I will give it my best shot.
I have the SOL docs somewhere in this nightmarishly cluttered
and disorganized museum I live in. May have TARGET too.
I will take your advice and copy the Trek 80 cassette.
I am curious about one thing. Is the Trek 80 among the
very earliest examples of game software for microcomputers?
Bob Wood
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Yesterday I picked up an Osborne 1 from the dump. It seems to be in
relatively good physical condition apart from a missing CAPS LOCK key
(which I luckily found nearby). Unfortunately, it had been rained on. The
keyboard was separate from the main unit, and it was full of water. The
main unit seems to be slightly better off (at least water didn't pour out
of it when I picked it up). I haven't pulled either apart yet, so I
haven't seen what condition the internals are in.
Can anyone give me some hints on restoring this machine? What's the best
way to clean mud off circuit boards and electronic components? I'm going
to check the power supply separate disconnected from the main unit, so will
it need a dummy load? Is there anything in particular I should check on
the Osborne 1?
Finally, is it possible to make a boot disk using a PC to CP/M program like
Alien or 22Disk? Where can I find a boot disk image?
Thanks in advance.
| Scott McLauchlan |E-Mail: scott(a)cts.canberra.edu.au |
| Network Services Team |Phone : +61 2 6201 5544 (Ext.5544)|
| Client Services Division |Post : University of Canberra, |
| University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA | ACT, 2601, AUSTRALIA. |
I just grabbed a portable terminal called an Informer. It says its from
Los Angeles and is model #207P Serial #55861 -4055
Anyone know anything about it before I try to fire it up?
colan
I am wondering if anyone knows of a good source of Radio Shack
TRS-80 Pocket Computer information. I just picked up a Pocket
Computer (presumably the 'model 1', as it doesn't say Pocket
Computer II, etc.). It is catalog 26-3501.
Anyway, it came complete with the Printer/Cassette Interface
unit.... which you snap the computer into, and the 'expansion unit'
has cassette interface plugs, as well as a small calculator-like
printer. Pretty snazzy little unit. Looks like it has never been
used, and works like a charm. Also, I got the little guy for free!!
Here's my question: It starts up to BASIC. And there are several
modes of operation.... DEF, RUN, PRO, RESERVE. With a little
tinkering, I have managed to figure out that the PRO mode is to
program in BASIC programs. And, the RUN mode is to run them, etc. I
am curious for full information on these modes. I also am wondering
how to access the printer. Say, listing a BASIC program to it, or
printing messages, etc., to the printer. On first guess, I figured
it might use the LLIST and LPRINT type commands such as other early
TRS-80 BASICs did (back in my days of adventure game making :-) ....
but, I have been unable to get them to work. It seems whenever I
enter those commands (or other incorrect commands), I get a
1................................ up on the screen, this seems to be
some type of syntax error.
I guess I just don't know much about this part of the TRS-80
timeline and am looking for any help. Accessing the printer, error
codes, mode explainations, cassette commands in BASIC, etc.
Thank you,
CORD COSLOR
--
____________________________________________________________
| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
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|____________________________________________________________| |
\_____________________________________________________________\|
At 04:32 PM 8/16/98 -0500, Doug wrote:
>One of the earlier better-known microcomputers was the Scelbi-8H (1973).
>Scelbi stopped making hardware in 1974, and supposedly went into the
>software and book-writing biz. I know he wrote a book on games for the
>8008, but I don't know the year.
>
It was 1976 and the games were "Space Capture", "Hexpawn", and "Hangman".
Of course the 8008 code was written earlier, in 1976 Scelbi was in the book
biz as you said, not hardware. The book has 8080 code added for each game,
looks like a translation mostly of the 8008 code with a few exceptions. The
games were not real time, (of course).
All the other magazines and newsletters sound interesting! At least "The
Computer Hobbyist" I think I have found all of them. Hal Chamberlin had a
vector CRT display, and "pong" was one of the games. Steve Ciarcia
redesigned it in an early issue of BYTE. Will also be interested in the VCF
2 program on these!
-Dave
At 09:34 AM 8/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Wow, I've thrown out a couple dozen VT100/102/131s in the last 5 years at
>work. I guess they were pretty nice 20 years ago coming from a VT52 ;) If
>anyone has fondness for them, I've got a bunch more that will probably be
>hitting the dumpster soon.
>
> -wayne
So... the obvious question for the shipping challenged, where would these
be starting from?
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
Try do search for information about the CASIO PB100 I believe they were the
same machines. The PB100 was my first pocket computer, I sold it to buy a
Sinclair ZX81 back in 1985 and I've missed it greatly since then.
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Cord Coslor & Deanna Wynn <archive(a)navix.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, August 16, 1998 9:31 PM
Subject: TRS-80 Pocket Computer questions....
>I am wondering if anyone knows of a good source of Radio Shack
>TRS-80 Pocket Computer information. I just picked up a Pocket
>Computer (presumably the 'model 1', as it doesn't say Pocket
>Computer II, etc.). It is catalog 26-3501.
>
>Anyway, it came complete with the Printer/Cassette Interface
>unit.... which you snap the computer into, and the 'expansion unit'
>has cassette interface plugs, as well as a small calculator-like
>printer. Pretty snazzy little unit. Looks like it has never been
>used, and works like a charm. Also, I got the little guy for free!!
>Here's my question: It starts up to BASIC. And there are several
>modes of operation.... DEF, RUN, PRO, RESERVE. With a little
>tinkering, I have managed to figure out that the PRO mode is to
>program in BASIC programs. And, the RUN mode is to run them, etc. I
>am curious for full information on these modes. I also am wondering
>how to access the printer. Say, listing a BASIC program to it, or
>printing messages, etc., to the printer. On first guess, I figured
>it might use the LLIST and LPRINT type commands such as other early
>TRS-80 BASICs did (back in my days of adventure game making :-) ....
>but, I have been unable to get them to work. It seems whenever I
>enter those commands (or other incorrect commands), I get a
>1................................ up on the screen, this seems to be
>some type of syntax error.
>
>I guess I just don't know much about this part of the TRS-80
>timeline and am looking for any help. Accessing the printer, error
>codes, mode explainations, cassette commands in BASIC, etc.
>
>Thank you,
>
>CORD COSLOR
>
>--
> ____________________________________________________________
>| Cord G. Coslor : archive(a)navix.net |\
>| Deanna S. Wynn : deannasue(a)navix.net | |
>| on AOL Instant Messenger: DeannaCord | |
>| http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/4395 | |
>|------------------------------------------------------------| |
>| PO Box 308 - Peru, NE - 68421 - (402) 872- 3272 | |
>|------------------------------------------------------------| |
>| If you don't have AOL (like us) but want a great instant | |
>| chat feature, just go to http://www.aol.com/aim | |
>|____________________________________________________________| |
>\_____________________________________________________________\|
>
>
If I remember right, NeXT computers are not that expensive. I think mine
was $450 including computer, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and sound box
(NeXT Station Color Turbo W/400MB hd and 8mb of RAM)
Tony
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adam Jenkins [mailto:adam@merlin.net.au]
> Sent: Friday, August 14, 1998 2:31 PM
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
> Subject: Re: Altair - A different perspective
>
>
>
> >Exactly, the Altair helped kick-off the hobbiest movement by
> being cheap.
> >The Mark-8 did this earlier, but it was so slow and buggy that it was
> >pretty much a non-starter. The Altair was an improvement,
> but it was also
> >pretty much a non-starter that fizzled after about 10,000 units. The
> >Altair was the grandfather of the S-100 bus and CP/M, both of which
> >fizzled and left only a minor mark on MS-DOS, which didn't fizzle.
>
> I think that to say that the S-100 Bus and CP/M "fizzled" is
> to seriously
> understate the value of both. :) I'm sure you don't mean to
> suggest that
> they were without value, but keep in mind that 6 years of
> dominance (which
> is probably the minimum that one would give to CP/M and the
> S100) is an
> incredibly long time in the fledging personal computer
> field. True, it
> doesn't stand up that well to 15+ years of Microsoft, but it was the
> dominate architecture on teh market.
>
> >Low prices, enabled by the microprocessor, is one of the
> elements that got
> >us to where we are today. A high-degree of interactivity is another.
> >Computer graphics is another. The desktop form-factor is
> also a strong
> >survivor. So, if somebody were really looking at collecting
> Altairs as the
> >machine that "started it all", I think they have been misled
> and would be
> >better off collecting the IBM PC, early Apples, early HP
> desktops, the
> >PDP-8, and all of the PDP-1's they can find :-)
>
> I don't support these high prices, and I'm another of the
> collectors who
> wants to save and use, rather than simply buy and store their
> systems. I
> don't have, nor do I particularly desire, an Altair (but I do
> really want a
> NeXTCube), but the significance of the Altair and the
> hobbiest movement
> should not be measured in terms of computers sold. :) My view
> is that the
> Altair made it clear to hobiests that they could own a
> computer, and so
> even if they didn't buy one it started them dreaming about
> one. (And yes,
> I know it was not the first). This is much the same as with
> the Lisa -
> people didn't necessarily buy them, and indeed they ignored
> them in great
> numbers - but without the Lisa then I doubt the Macintosh
> would have been
> as successful. First you have the great implementation of a
> grand concept
> that you can never own, and then you follow it with an
> affordable version.
> Anyway, the point is that the Altair led to the hobbists, while the
> hobbists pushed the tech both in hardware and software, creating the
> potential for personal computers to move into new markets.
> True, this was
> a marketing dream of many of the computer companies before
> the Altair, but
> the Altair is definitly one of the most important systems. That's my
> opinion, anyway.
>
> As to prices, well I come form a number of collecting backgrounds, and
> prices are never increased so much by rarity or actual value, but by
> perceived value. When people started thinking Teddy Bears were worth
> money, the prices lept ahead - but only in the brands which
> the collectors
> recognised. The Altair is recognised as significant, is relativly
> uncommon, and every article on computer history sings it's
> praises. You
> could almost guarentee that the prices would go up.
>
> If only Apple IIc's were worth a fortune - then I could
> finally get my NeXT. :)
>
> Adam.
>
>
>That paddleboard connector on the VT100 is one of the cleverest pieces of
>design I've seen from DEC. The pins are supposed to short between the 2
>sides when there's nothing in the connector, thus linking the terminal
>logic signals to the DB25 on the back. Insert a paddleboard, and you
>disconnect them, allowing the paddleboard to connect separately to the
>VT100 logic and the outside world.
It is neat... I used that info to create my own sort of paddleboard
attachment which allowed me to have the terminal EIA/20ma
switch-selectable... I mounted a DPDT switch in the plastic panel which
goes on the back of a VT100 20ma option and wired it so it either routed
the signals through to the EIA port or shunted them off to the 20ma
option... only needed to intercept 4 signal lines, if I remember
correctly.. (or was it three).
I still have the 'option' in a drawer at work...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I came to own a scanner made by The Complete PC, Inc. Natrually there
isn't any software with the device do anyone here know where I could
find a program to use this thing?
Okay. I have debated over and over, whether to say what I'm going
to say next. But I can provide a tidbit of interesting info.
Look: no flames... I feel bad enough as it is. Be *gentle*.
More than twenty years ago... in '75. I had an E-type Jaguar. I
paid about $2K for said car (4 years earlier) while serving in The
Glorious and Omnipotent Soldiers of His Majesty King Richard the
Nixon. I **loved** that car, lusted for it as a child, finally got
one. (poignant note: nice ones are now going for $40-60K)
Well. Back then, I was Very Poor, and the Jag was up on blocks
deteriorating and I was taking busses and bumming rides. One of the
regular customers at the little surplus shop I worked for came in
one day describing this *computer* he had gotten, and didn't really
want. At that time... computers were the one item I would have glady
traded spiritual equity to the Dark Side to have...
"I'll trade ya my old Jag for it!!" I blurted.
"Deal." he said. (O! to be young again!) [NOT!!!!]
What he had was a 1962 Bendix G-15, with all the docs and
everything. A real, vacuum-tube, hybrid, drum machine....
The previous owner, seeing the standard 220V plug, had run a long
cable from an outlet, around the building, over the roof, and in the
window. The Bendix was *actually* a 110V device... but someone had
installed the heftier plug due to the 175KVA the thing drew starting
up. Well, my 'friend' got it home, trundled it into the garage,
plugged it into the clothes-dryer outlet, and, thanks to ignoring Mr.
G. S. Ohm, blew out %70 percent of the thousands of germanium glass
diodes it used for passive logic.
I lived in an upstairs apartment... 900lbs of computer was out of
the question. One of the other guys at work volunteered *his*
garage, and we went to work changing diodes. Some weeks later, we
fired it up... no good. More (hidden) diodes. Again. Nothing...
ooops, drum clamped and motor disconnected... and clock track on
the drum...
Then it worked! My, were we happy!! it was about 5:30 am on a
sunday, we had worked through the night.. and there it was.. the OS
signed on to the console typewriter.. and it *was* a typewriter..
and IBM Executive that Bendix had fitted solenoids under.. the keys
looked like a ghost was typing when output was taking place.
Which gets me to the topical thread of this post: even *it* had
two games (on 5-level paper tape).. one was called Nim, and the
other was a version of Tic/Tac/Toe.. which re-drew the whole game
(on the s l o w typewriter) with every move.
Then, the lights dimmed, all the power supply meters dropped into
low-margin red zones, and the breakers snapped out. Fifteen seconds
later, my friend's sleepy wife stumbled into the Computer Room
(garage) and asked if we wanted some fresh coffee. You can guess
which circuit the coffee-maker was on.
Sigh. Five years later, he moved to a different state, and we gave
the G-15 to one of the Burroughs divisions for a lobby display. I
lost track of it in the rush of time and career.... what I'd give
to have it back. ((What I'd give to still have my Jag!))
sniff, sniff... One of these days, maybe I'll find another, on
it's side in some junk yard.... who am I kidding?
Anyway... just a little bit of history on Computer Gaming.
Cheers
John
>> Might this cabling 'trick' apply to the Apple III as well?
>>
>> And if so, does anyone know what's special about the cable? That might be
>> the source of my Profile problems with my III.
Doug, as I said, there's definitely nothing amazing about the cables for
the ///, at least not with the controller cards I have (I don't know if
anyone ever made any third-party controller boards?). They're either
straight through or complete crossover, but there's no odd connections
or anything.
cheers
Jules
>Yesterday I picked up an Osborne 1 from the dump. It seems to be in
>relatively good physical condition apart from a missing CAPS LOCK key
>(which I luckily found nearby). Unfortunately, it had been rained on. The
>keyboard was separate from the main unit, and it was full of water. The
>main unit seems to be slightly better off (at least water didn't pour out
>of it when I picked it up). I haven't pulled either apart yet, so I
>haven't seen what condition the internals are in.
I doubt the raid did much damage. Two years ago I bought a bunch of
Apple II systems from a school disctrict that had set out during a storm
the night before. The monitors were damp, water just poured out of the
Apple IIe's upon picking them up, cards were laying on the damp ground,
splattered by mud.
Everything worked perfectly, and was entirely dust-free.
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
Indeed, Dos 2.11 was the Dos version packaged with the PCjr (as well as
other systems, I think).
Cliff Gregory
cgregory(a)lrbcg.com
-----Original Message-----
From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
To: Cgregory <Cgregory>
Date: Friday, August 14, 1998 11:52 AM
Subject: Dos 2.1 and 2.11
>
>Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
>able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr?
>
>
>colan
>
One of the cover pieces to my PDP-8 has seperated in the one corner where
the top teal plactic piece joins the translucent plastic side. What kind
of glue would you recommend I use to fix this? I don't want to do any
damage to the cover by using the wrong type of glue.
Thanks.
Tom Owad
--
Sysop of Caesarville Online
Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>
> The TD-800 were CRT based terminals some based on 6800 micros others on
> 8086 (yes indeed) Burroughs claimed that they were the first to use the
> 8086 processor and helped Intel debug it. When the IBM PC came out
> Burroughs were using substantially more powerful hardware just as dumb
> terminals.
One of the fun things about the TD-800 was that it was possible to read
and write the micro's memory. I wrote a Cobol program (the only programming
language I had) on a B800 to let me monkey about with the TD-800's
innards. The ones I was using had a 6800 in them.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
<It has a drive apparently loaded with some version of VMS but I have to
< put together a console cable to find out. Then of course, the big trick
< will be the fact that I don't have VMS on tape or the passwords to the
Not a problem. VAX/VMS has very high security IF you can keep people away
>from the boot console.
The proceedure is simple and in the VMS doc set.
Set halt enable toggle on console connector pannel.
hit halt, then reset
the machine should count down to 2 and Give the >>> prompt.
Then it's >>>B/1 DUA0 (assumes first MSCP drive)
when SYSBOOT> happens...
SYSBOOT>>> SET UAFALTERNATE 1
SYSBOOT>>> SET STARTUP_P1 "MIN"
SYSBOOT>>> CONT
then you see a normal vms boot proceed.
When it gives the process terminated hit return a few times.
LOGIN: SYSTEM
PASSWORD: {only give a return}
PASSWORD: {again ONLY RETURN}
you are now logged in to the system account in single user mode.
change the passwaord to something safe.
$ DEFINE SYSUAF SYS$SYSTEM:[SYSEXE]SYSUAF.DAT
$ SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM
$ RUN AUTHORIZE
UAF> MOD/PASS=system system {SYSTEM account now has password SYSTEM}
UAF> exit
$@sys$system:shutdown
when shutdown prompts for action taken hit return {take default}.
When it says it's all done and you can halt the system hit the halt button
and we do it again thins time with a real password.
>>>B/1 dua0
SYSBOOT>>> SET UAFALTERNATE 0 {use the noew password}
SYSBOOT>>> SET STARTUP_P1 "" {normal system start}
SYSBOOT>>> CONT
after it does its things
LOGIN: SYSTEM
PASSWORD: SYSTEM {FYI, ccase insensitive and notmally not echoed}
Your in and have system managers prives. HELP at the $ prompt gets help.
Also there are four OSs that run on it, BSD unix, netBSD, Ultrix (DEC)
and VMS(DEC). The first will be hard to get. The second sorta works
and ultrix I ahve no idea on the license. VMS is available on CD or any
media you can find. VMS V5.4 through 6.1 are on the CD and all are under
the same DECUS free hobbiest license. The versions on the CD are standard
releases and DECnet runs. The CD and many archives have CMUip (TCP/IP
stack) and a few other neat things.
Have fun.
Allison
At 10:27 PM 8/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>As long as I'm getting physics lessons, I figure now's a good time for
>chemistry.
>
>I've got a bunch of portables, most of them with batteries. The batteries
>are clearly the weak-points of these systems in terms of long-term
>viability. First, is there any way to ensure the batteries live forever?
>If not, what's the best way to preserve them, how long should I expect
>them to last, and what can I do now to prepare for the inevitable
>repair/replacement down the road?
>
>My current plan is to remove all batteries and store them in the fridge,
>but I'm not crazy about the idea. Do some battery types store better than
>others? I have to deal with NiCd, Li+, NiMH, and Lead-acid.
>
>-- Doug
>
The battery life times should range as Lead-Acid, NiCad, NiMH, Li+ from
shortest to highest. Lead Acid batteries will be ruined if you let them
sit dead. Even as short a time as overnight can ruin them. It doesn't
appear to hurt NiCads to let them sit dead. I'm not sure about the other
two. NiCad and LA will both go bad with age even it they're not used so you
may as well use them.
For maximum life of NiCads DO NOT discharge them all the way or use a
rapid charger on them. These discharge then rapid chargers that are all
the rage with toy car owners are not only a waste of money, it's also
ruining their batteries.
Almost all battery packs use standard cells inside and there are plenty
of places that will rebuild your old battery packs so they shouldn't be a
big problem. I rebuild LOTS of them for HP and TI calculators.
Joe
A C128D running at 20MHz with 20MB of RAM plus a 2GB Hard Drive and a 1.6MB
floppy drive is one extraordinary system.
It is sure worth more than a "coupla bux", although I would have fallen out
of the bidding by now. Note that most of these accessories are quite new and
some are useable on other systems.
Phil Guerney
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, August 17, 1998 5:33 AM
Subject: C64 for $800
>I'm no Commodore expert, but is there really anything in this lot that's
>worth more than a coupla bux, or is this just the alex-factor at work
>again?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=25343674
>
>-- Doug
>
>
At 06:19 PM 8/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey, Apple weenies, I just picked up a dignostic ROM for the Mac LC, LCII,
>and CLSII. It includes trouble-shooting docs. $12000 or best offer :-)
>
>-- Doug
Ok $.50 . That's my best offer.
Oh, you said Apple weenies. Well that leaves me out.
Joe
>
>What you have there is a VT103... it has a 4x4 backplane (Q/Q) and a
>more gutsy power supply than a standard VT100. Yes, you can build
>a working pdp-11 into it... One of my 'workhorse' machines when I was
I have some VT100 lookalikes lying around, a VT101 and a VT131.
Any chance that these also can be turned into PDP11's?
>I thought the VDP-40 was that all-in-one computer that
IMSAI came out with in the same timeframe that was so bug-ridden that
most
were returned to IMSAI and hardly any are in existence anymore?
Except for the floppy drive/controller the machine ran ok. I never had
a memory or CPU failure. Unfortunately, the floppy drives didn't work
so well, and the controller seemed to work only during certain phases of
the moon.
Are they rare? Okay, list bargain, I'll part with mine (no, don't thank
me) for a mere $5000 (US or CDN, hey, i'll absorb the arbitrage
difference). Cash of course, small unmarked bills, delivered by courier
overnight.
Jack Peacock
Well, I certainly wasn't disappointed on my first trip to the MIT flea
market this weekend. I went there with childish entusiasm and $200 in my
pocket and left with:
1 Atari 800 - Not working but I can fix it (needs a new 6502 wich I got
tons of)
1 Vic-20 - Working
1 TI99/4A (Cream Colored) - Working
1 Macintosh Portable - Needs some work
1 Osborne 1 - Needs work but I got the technical manual with it
1 Osborne Executive - Powers up but I need a boot disk
1 Kaypro 1 - Powers up, need boot disk
1 Kaypro 2 - Powers up, need boot disk
1 Kaypro 4 - Powers Up and boots (came with Wordstar, Microplan,
Basic-80, and CP/M 2.2)
and $65.00 or so of my original cash.
I also was able to nab a CoCo2 at a local flea for $5
Tony
I got this somewhat neat plotter today made by 3M circa 1984. Its a
portable dealie that can be programmed for different types of bar and pie
charts and plots, plus has text capabilities. It has a keyboard with an
integrated LCD matrix display that slides off the front. It prompts you
for the type of chart you want, then asks you to enter all the data points
in. It then plots it for you. I also got a separate unit that has a
micro-cassette storage drive and a carthridge slot for some type of modem
option.
So anyway, there's a reason why I'm talking about this relatively boring
relic. Last week I was out of town on a project and was going home for
the weekend. On my way to the airport I stopped off at a thrift store.
One of the things I came across was this 3M plotter. It was marked at
$29.99, but this is one of those shops that slashes prices every couple of
days as the thing doesn't sell. I wanted to take it, more so because I
was curious as to what it was, thinking it might be a computer with the
keyboard and micro-cassette storage and all. But I didn't want to spend
$30 on it and I certainly couldn't take it with me on the plane, and
didn't have enough time to grab it, haul it back to the local office, then
high-tail it back to the airport. So I figured when I returned on Monday,
I'd head back to the shop confident it would still be there.
When I got in Monday I missed the store closing by a minute. I came back
in the morning of the next day to find it gone. I asked one of the store
clerks if he knew what happened to it and he said that it was tossed out
the night before. AAGGH!!! I was bummed, only because I thought it might
have been something really neat but didn't have the chance to find out.
Also, I'd failed to write down the model number and thus couldn't do a
useful web search.
I figured one day I would run into one again and would just have to be
patient until then. Well, I would have never thought that day would be so
soon. The best part is the one I got today was cheaper ($7), had a hard
plastic carrying case, came with a (photocopied) manual, and some plotter
paper and pens. And it works (I'm playing with it right now, its actually
really cool, and useful!!) Plus the one I saw last week was on the east
coast, this one was on the west, at a flea market near where my parent's
live that I haven't been to in ages.
So what is the purpose of this long rambling? Uncie Sam's story has a
moral: there's (almost) ALWAYS one more out there, so if you don't get it
the first time, don't fret (and certainly don't pay $12,100 for it).
Serendipity will prevail someday and you'll get one too, but you have to
be out there looking to make it happen.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web site update: 08/09/98]
Hello, all:
Part of the haul this weekend was a DEC RX02 floppy drive and RX211
controller (for my 11/34a). I don't have any data on the controller, so how
do I set it up properly? What are the default settings and what do the
switch positions mean?
Also, the cable that I got seems to have one contuctor broken (the pin-1
designator/red stripe). Is there any magic to the length of the cable? Can I
create a new one of the same length using standard 40-pin IDC connectors and
ribbon cable? Can I shorten it to the break point or should I just patch it?
Any tips here are appreciated.
Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com>
- ClubWin/CW7
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
- Preserver of "classic" computers
<<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>
OK, I've spent around 8 hours today going through the pile of PDP-11 stuff
that I got. In doing so I've made a disturbing discovery. Of the 4 RL02
disk packs that contain the media kit for RSX-11M 4.1, 3 of them have red
markers. You know the ones that say don't use if marker is red.
What I want to do is transfer the data off of those packs onto disk images
using one of my MV2's. This isn't a problem as I've done it before, what
concerns me is the safety of doing it since the packs are "Red".
Secondly, can a RL01 be read in a RL02 drive, or will I have to get one of
the RL01's that I got today up and running in order to archive the RL01
packs. I want to get one of them archived ASAP as it has Whitesmith C on
it (and I think Pascal).
None of the RL01's have white/red markers so I've no idea how safe they are.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
Hello, all:
I made *another* trip to Temple University this weekend, so here's a
rundown on the haul:
- Magazines: the remaining Radio-Electronics and Popular
Electronics issues. I have most issues from mid-1976 to 1982. Byte
Magazine -- 1978 to 1981, scattered issues. I still have to get mid-1981to
1987 (they have to 1993, but Byte
stopped being Byte around 1987 I think). Interface Age -- a handful of
issues. Kilobaud -- a handful of issues. A+ -- random issues.
- some random PC/XT/AT cards (CGA video, floppy cards with a DB37
external port)
- SWTP dual external floppy drive with interface card. This one, plus
two SWTP motherboard units (which I did not take), were under a pile of
new-looking RA81
drives. This is up for trade, since I have no SWTP stuff.
- RX02 and interface card
- Small Houston Instruments flat-bed plotter. Once I get the model#
off of it, I'll be asking for info :-).
I will have go back one more time for the rest of the Byte's :-). After
that, I think that I'm through there.
Rich Cini/WUGNET <nospam_rcini(a)msn.com>
- ClubWin/CW7
- MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking
- Preserver of "classic" computers
<<<< ========== reply separator ========== >>>>>
Unfortunatly the subject line describes how a bunch of the PDP-11/03 boards
that I got today came. What is the chance that they are operational?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
At the risk of turning you into more of an appreciator, here is how to run
Trek80 on your SOL:
1. Assuming that you have your cassette player properly attached to the SOL,
press the "play" button - the tape won't start until the SOL tells it to.
2. Make sure your CAPS LOCK in on. Then at the '>' prompt enter XEQ
<return>.
3. Alternatively, enter GET. After a few moments the SOL will respond with
something like 'TREK80 0000 23AB' (the beginning and end addresses). Then
enter EX 0 and you are aboard the Enterprise.
BTW, I would make a copy of the tape rather than using the original. Old
tape literally get flakey, and I've had to replace the pressure pad on
several of my original PT tapes.
And if you like Trek80 as an arcade game, you must try TARGET by Steve
Dompier. It was almost always used as an attention getter in its demo mode
by PT dealers. You fire missles at 'airplanes' and if you play an AM radio
nearby, you can hear the sound effects of missle launches, explosions, and
falling debris.
email me with your address if you would like xerox copies of Trek80, Target,
or most SOL documentation (though I don't have FOCAL docs or a copy of that
tape - are you listening, Frank?)
Bob Stek - Keeper of lost SOLs
bobstek(a)ix.netcom.com
>On a separate note, I ended up with 3 more VT100's with this, and one of
>them had a loose top, so I took a look inside, and noticed that it has
>what looks to be a Q-Bus backplane. What is the story here? Can I put
>some cards in here and have a working PDP-11? (I know figure the odds)
>I took a look through the VT100 tech manual I got today, but couldn't
>find anything about the backplane.
What you have there is a VT103... it has a 4x4 backplane (Q/Q) and a
more gutsy power supply than a standard VT100. Yes, you can build
a working pdp-11 into it... One of my 'workhorse' machines when I was
in the RT-11 development group was a VT103 with an 11/73 (KDJ11-A),
256kb and a DSD880/20 controller. I did lots of RT development and
testing on that machine... I still have the machine in my office
in Nashua, even though I am doing Alpha work nowadays.
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I was surprised by an ad for a "PDP 11 plus plotter, monitors, disc units,
printer $20" and I did a half-hour drive across town to see it this morning.
What I found was a hotch-potch of branded components stacked inside a
garage, but nothing from Digital apart from the RT-11 and other software
manuals. The processor cage, or at least a separate "spare" cage, was badged
General Robotics Corp Microcomputer GRC 11/X3 and contained boards marked on
the tabs M8192, M7504 and two M8043 as well as others without marked tabs. I
guess this was a PDP clone? This computer is in the Comprehensive Computer
Catalog I last downloaded (Dec 97 date) on the "undated list".
The "in use" processor cage was mounted in the front of a steel cabinet
about 2-3' deep, about 3' high and 2' wide with a Cipher brand tape drive
(Magnetic Peripherals Inc) above it. Separately boxed was a Control Data
Drive CDC-CMD and to top it all off there was a BIG plotter, a Nicolet Zeta
3653sx (if I can read my scrawled notes correctly) about 4' wide and 18"
high. A Compaq brand monitor went with it. The folder of documentation
contained a manual for a F880 Magnetic Tape Transport but the present owner
said he sent a 5-6' high tape unit to the tip a year ago so that might have
been it. He also dumped a printer. Other documents referred to a M224X
Fujitsu 51/4" 31-86MB drive and a SRQ011 Winchester Drive Controller but I'm
not sure if they were there. There were certainly other boxes mounted in the
main cabinet.
There were two cardboard boxes full of manuals for SCO Xenix System V, LP1
Fortran, RT11 Fortran IV, RT11 Macro-11 and something called TSX-Plus V6.01,
the RT-11 User Guide and many other fat folders of RT-11 stuff.
There was heaps of irrelevant stuff stored on top and around these units so
it was difficult to see everything, and as I was not going to take it away
myself, I couldn't hang around keeping the owner away from what he was doing
any longer. He said it all came from a geophysical company office and was in
working order two years ago. All he had done is store it, but it appears to
have suffered some damage - some panels were hanging loose, and there was a
large old TV stored on the CDC drive causing the metal top to be bent in.
If any Australians (or others?) are interested in this gear, you can contact
me and I will put you in contact with the owner directly. He says he wants
the space cleared, but will keep the gear for a little while yet - he does
seem to want it to go to someone who can do something with it - and he is
not asking much money. But remember, to take it all away, you will need at
least a 1t truck!
It's out of my league to get this going - I really only collect micros! The
day wasn't wasted - I did pick up a CoCo3 128K system with a Tandy dual
floppy disk drive and Tandy monitor plus manuals, heaps of Rompacks,
magazines etc for $40, and all in perfect working order.
Phil Guerney
Brisbane - Australia.
guerney(a)uq.net.au
At 03:00 PM 8/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>My point is that the Altair's significance has been way overstated. The
Whether that is true or not is completely irrelevant to the pricing of
Altairs as collectibles.
For example, Beanie babies are neither new in concept, well made, or even
terribly uncommon. Yet they sometimes sell for ridiculous prices.
Meanwhile, quality toys, which are far more uncommon, and were, in their
time, ground-breaking, often sell for much less. Collector value is a
function of perceived importance and perceived rarity. It may or may not
have any basis whatsoever in actual fact.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
< Unfortunatly the subject line describes how a bunch of the PDP-11/03 boa
< that I got today came. What is the chance that they are operational?
Ok, I'll guess.
You got some PDP-11 board for an older 11/03.
They arrived wrapped in aluminum foil.
Are they any good?
Well, I don't know. However, wrapping them in foil is a excellent way
to protect them from static damage. REALLY! If they were good that
will insure they stay that way assuming no mechanical damage occurs.
Allison
>From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
>
>>
>> Hi everyone...
>>
>>...
>> the mouse (MO100) is totally dead...it only moves horizontally...I tried
>
>So, first open up the mouse, and clean the dirt out of the sensors....
While it's open, I also recommend you check continuity of the wires in the
cable. I've had a mouse fail because there was a serious kink in one of the
wires in the cable. That cable gets a lot of flexing and the kink
eventually broke that wire. I got an intermittent fault so I could localize
it by bending the cable manually and fix it by slitting the cable open,
splicing the wire, and taping it back up. That's not a very elegant fix,
but it worked. A whole new cable with a new connector at the end would be
nicer.
- Mark
would you take $2.4000 ?
Francois
-------------------------------------------------------------
Visit the desperately in need of update
Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 6:21 PM
Subject: Apple TechStep CPU Tests
>Hey, Apple weenies, I just picked up a dignostic ROM for the Mac LC, LCII,
>and CLSII. It includes trouble-shooting docs. $12000 or best offer :-)
>
>-- Doug
>
Maybe I'm thinking of all the 9600/14.4 modems I have worked with. Most of
the 2400 I came across were internals.
At 04:23 AM 8/15/98 -0400, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote:
>Odd. An awful lot of the external modems I've dealt with were 12-24
>VAC power supplies. Just about anything by Tandy comes to mind from
>the bad old days when 1200 bps was considered "fast", but I'm pretty
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
>That's why the Altair affair is so disturbing for lots of us.
>We've suddenly and quite violently been told that some of the more
>interesting and curious junk is now off limits, unless you have a
>fairly fat wallet. It's very hard to get used to, and it makes me,
>at least, very uncomfortable.
Well said... I agree entirely. It makes me really sad and somewhat
angry to think that some of this stuff can now only be bought by
people with deep pockets -- people who probably don't have any
contact with the computer field other than possibly using a PC... people
who will probably just have the thing on display, never used, or
people who's only interest is waiting for the price to climb yet
again so they can make their money back.
They essentially closes the door on the hobbyists, without whom the
home PC might never have existed.
I remember working on helping to build, and then later program one of
these machines when I was in college (1974-1978)... I've always wanted to
get one for the sake of memories, but that'll never happen now...
No, I don't want to see you kicked off the list either, but I can't
say that I will look forward to your posts either, especially if they are
about latest acquisitions/sales...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hello again, everyone.
I'm looking for a power supply for a WANG WLTC laptop. It doesn't
necessarily need to be a WANG power supply. Just as long as it's 18V DC,
and at least 2 Amps.
I'm also looking for manuals for the WANG WLTC:
- Installation instructions
- Fundamentals Guide
- DOS Command Processor Guide
- Troubleshooting Guide
- Printer Software Administration Guide
- BASIC Language Guide
Again, they don't need to be originals. They can be copies.
As always, ThAnX in advance,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> wrote:
> There have been several comments so far about higher prices reducing the
> availability of older computers/radios/etc. As a point of discussion,
> what can be done about it? If the intent is to work on and find out how
> things work, I don't see *any* difference between an existing older
> machine, and a new one built from existing schematics. Yes, I do
> realize that some of the electronics are unavailable easily anymore.
That's a darn good question. That's actually the sort of thing that
got me into collecting computers -- I wanted to learn something
practical about hardware. (Did I? No, not really; now I collect
because I'm an addict.)
The fundamental problem with the answer is that most of us are
cheap/spoiled. Me too. We've got used to being able to pick up
hacker toys for cheap. What can you do in the way of a new machine
built from existing schematics for say $50?
(Cue Tim Shoppa to tell us how much it would cost to build an IMSAI
today.)
Well, OK, maybe you don't need all that casework, it just gets in the
way when you want to do serious hardware hacking anyway.
Here's where I end up following this line of thought: hackable
singleboard kits. Personally I'm partial to something like a cross
between a microprocessor trainer or eval kit and the Morrow Micro
Decision (a Z80 with 64KB DRAM, floppy disk controller w/34-pin
connector, couple of serial ports), maybe y'all have other ideas.
-Frank McConnell
"Bob Wood" <altair8800(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> Let me say one other thing in passing to all the people
> who have pointed out that I have missed out on something
> by never learning the fun of poking around in these computers
> to see how they tick. You are right! I am sitting here with
> a Proc Tech factory made copy of Star Trek on cassette.
> Being a very serious video arcade game buff it is just
> about killing me that I cannot see it work. I have
> no earthly idea how to get my SOL to show it to me. And
> I want to see it bad, bad, bad! I am extremely fortunate
> enough to have both it and all the hardware to allow
> me to see it. But because I never tinkered around inside
> these computers I may never be able to see it play.
Here you are on this mailing list, you make a statement like that, and
you don't past the statement of ignorance to asking for help? What
kind of idjit are you? Could it be that you're afraid you might start
learning things and thus end up like us? BWAHAHAHA!
Here's the kind of idjit that I am: been there, done that (well, it
was FOCAL, not Star Trek), and I can't remember what you have to type
at the SOL monitor prompt to load and run the program off tape. LO?
Do you have to give it load addresses, and tell it where to start
execution (EX?) after loading? I've got the documentation (for FOCAL)
but it'd be an afternoon of work to get to it right now. Bah.
-Frank McConnell
Hi:
If you don't know the password to the system account under VMS, this isn't
much of a problem. Contact me on email for the bypass procedure.
At 02:58 PM 98/08/15 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Finally got around to looking inside the MicroVax II I acquired. It's in
>the short squat rolling enclosure (BA123?) and has the following boards
>
> <snip>
>
>It has a drive apparently loaded with some version of VMS but I have to
>put together a console cable to find out. Then of course, the big trick
>will be the fact that I don't have VMS on tape or the passwords to the
>machine itself. :( And I can't call the company that gave it to me
>because several layers of red-tape were bypassed to get it to me for free.
>
>Hmmm...a friend of mine says I should find a variant of Unix for it but I
>used to be big into VAXen (at least on the user end) and having a VMS
>machine amuses me.
NetBSD would be good for this machine. I run it on my Microvax II.
Kevin
---
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
What is a Burroughs TD-700 display? Picked up two of them in pretty bad
shape, unknown if working or not(and don't know how to test), for free.
What are they, what do they do, how do they do it, etc... Lucky me, I got a
big book with the schematics! Kinda useless if you don't know what they
hook up to, though.
--------------------------------------------------------------
| http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers |
| http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek |
| Orham(a)qth.net list admin KD7BCY |
--------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder how many other people on this list have worked on pinball
>>machines/video games (coin ops)?
>
>Guilty! Still do!!
>
>One of my first electronics based paying jobs was with a now long gone
>outfit called "Digital Design Concepts", whos main claim to fame was a
>video game (called the "Video 5" which played five different (more or
less,
>all 'pong' styled) games.
>
>Quite radical for the time...
>
>-jim
Don't know if you are aware of it but the video arcade game
collecting hobby is about as close as it can get
to being a mirror image of the classic computer hobby.
It started at roughly the same time and has a very active
and fast growing newsgroup <rec.games.video.arcade.collecting>.
And, as I'm sure you know,
all of the innovations and developments put into the
coin-ops essentially follow the timeline of that for
computers. And that is the foundation of their collecting
interest as well. Many of them are employed by the computer
industry as chip designers, software specialists, etc.
And, eerily, their newsgroup recently devoted
a great many long threads to the resistance of many to price
increases just as is happening to computer collecting.
Interestingly, though, while game collecting and
computer collecting have so much in common - I am unaware
of anyone who is a serious participant of both. Don't
know why that is. But if you have not yet visited their
newsgroup I think you will find it entertaining.
Bob Wood
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
OK, I just had my "Big Haul" delivered (you've got to love people that want
to get rid of stuff so bad that they deliver it to you). I'll have more on
this later. At the moment, I've got a question about packs. Are "NASHUA
4443" Packs RL01 packs? Also is there a way to tell RL01 and RL02 packs
that aren't DEC packs apart?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
but I can't
>say that I will look forward to your posts either, especially if they
are
>about latest acquisitions/sales...
>
> Megan Gentry
>
>Not a problem Megan. As I said in the first post I
anticipated exactly your reaction. I have been reading
the list for months and I realize what it is intended
for and what it means to y'all (excuse that, I am a
Southern boy). I have never had any intention to become
a regular contributor because I really am not capable
of any type of contribution that the list was intended
for. The only reason that I spewed forth with it this time
is that I was bursting to tell someone and if I told
anyone else but you guys they wouldn't even know what
the hell an Altair was.
There will be no more acqusitions to tell about. I stumbled
onto a way to get them and now it is all over with. So
unless somewhere they are building some more used Altairs
that is it for me.
Let me say one other thing in passing to all the people
who have pointed out that I have missed out on something
by never learning the fun of poking around in these computers
to see how they tick. You are right! I am sitting here with
a Proc Tech factory made copy of Star Trek on cassette.
Being a very serious video arcade game buff it is just
about killing me that I cannot see it work. I have
no earthly idea how to get my SOL to show it to me. And
I want to see it bad, bad, bad! I am extremely fortunate
enough to have both it and all the hardware to allow
me to see it. But because I never tinkered around inside
these computers I may never be able to see it play.
So I am not the enemy believe me. I truly respect all
of you folks for the abilities you have. And I want
to chime in here and fully agree with a post from yesterday
which stated that of all of the places on the Internet which
I have ever visited this one, hands down, has the most thoughtful
people of any I have ever encountered.
I hope you can keep your hobby as pure as you want it
to be. I would never want to do anything to interfere
with that.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings and, who knows,
maybe someday I will be lucky enough to actually meet
some of you at the Computer Festival. I hope so.
Regards,
Your friend and supporter.
Bob Wood
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
In a message dated 98-08-14 21:36:00 EDT, Kees put forth:
<< PCDOS 2.1 was released specifically for the PCjr. 2.1's floppy drive
access was slowed down considerably because the drive in the PCjr was
so flimsy that it would break if it was used faster. MSDOS 2.11 was
the generic version available from Microsoft, and there also were
versions 2.2 and 2.25 with specific international support added. >>
I dont understand the issue about the floppy drive "slowed down" AFAIK, its
just a regular old 360k drive. I think it may be the same drive as what's on
the 5155 machine. It probably has more to do with the lack of DMA on the pcjr
rather than anything else.
david
>> >$12100 for the world's flakiest S-100 box:
>> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=24409570
>> >
>> >(and the reserve was still not met, but I bet the guy sells, what do
you
>> >think?)
>>
>> I think this whole auction reeks of bull-shit! Everything from
the
>> opening bid of $2500 to reserve of OVER $12,000 and the seller's
>> insistance of 1 day UPS delivery smells of being a FAKE!
>
>Interesting point. This auction could have been staged simply to raise
>the perceived value of the Altair 8800 just before someone dumps 25 of
>them on the market.
>
>Or someone may just be that stupid.
>
>Two theories. Take your pick.
Before this wild speculation goes any further let me
try to sets your minds somewhat at ease.
As you would expect it was my natural reflex
to offer a computer to the 2nd bidder. I have now had
several back and forth emails with him. He is, like
yourselves, an avid classic computer collector with
500 pieces including An Apple 1. He has Altairs but
not the original 8800. Hi explanation for the wide
difference in his bids on the two auctions is that
he put great value on the additional boards (the S-100
Hayes modem, a rare CPU, the video cards, etc. etc. etc.)
He is willing to pay no more for the straight computer than
his bid on Willing's auction. Now I know that most will
not agree with his assessment but that is not the point.
The point is that he is indeed a legitimate participant
I cannot, however, get into the mind of the woman who
entered the high bid. After having listed several hundred
Ebay items I can guess though. In a word - impulsiveness.
I have seen it time and again with my own auctions. In
my experience about 15% of my high bidders renig. When
I then offer the items to my 2nd bidders they will choose
not to accept about 95% of the time. This is nothing new
to online auctions (excepting that it is harder to renig
in a live auction). Auction bidding is done impulsively
and when given an opportunity to change their minds
most bidders will choose to do so.
So for whatever appeal the Altair has to her she probably
got caught up in the last minute frenzy and may have plenty
of money to be able to do so with no pain whatsoever. Or,
who knows, maybe she was buying it for someone else. There is
no way to know unless she chooses to tell us. Maybe someone has
been in contact with her and will tell us.
Of course there is always the possibility that she was a
shill. However, it is highly unlikely, given how the auction
ended.
Keep in mind that there was no offical transaction here. With
the reserve not met no one was committed to buy anything.
Much more interesting to me, than the bidders in this auction,
was the seller. What must he have been thinking to come up with such
a laughably unrealsitic reserve (and we don't know how laughable
because we don't know how high it was). I thought I had seen
just about every abberation Ebay could offer but I cannot
get into his head at all.
The bottom line is that this auction in no way contributes
to our trying to get a handle on how others now value an Altair.
Willing's outcome, however, is a more valid indicator of that.
But any auction price is only a contributing factor and should
be taken only that way.
To answer your other question, Sam, sure I would be glad to
reveal how I bought the MITS stuff. But all it would serve
to do is piss off others because it is something that every single
reader of this list could just as easily have done. Frankly,
I remained amazed for the year and a half I had it to myself,
that no one figured it out. But if I lay it out I will again
be chastised. I will be told that it is materialistic and irrelevant
because all that
matters is tinkering with the computers. Are you sure you want
to hear all that again?
Bob
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
It is likely that I am the only person on this
list who is a total "outsider". I am a collectibles
dealer. I never touched a computer keyboard until
two years ago. I will now probably be asked to leave
but before that happens I would like to share my
Altair "experiences" with you. This will be long
winded so if you are only interested in "sound-bite"
length messages hit your back button now. This little story
cannot be told in a couple of sentences.
I no longer remember how I learned of the existence
of the Altair 8800 but it was about a year and a half
ago. I learned about the history of it and it's
association with the beginning of Gates' and Allen's
business careers. I decided that the Altair's potentially could
be a big deal so I started looking for them.
Almost immediately I discovered a source. I bought eight
of them for from $100 to $300 apiece in about two months time.
At that time the price edged up to $3-500 so I said to
hell with it and stopped buying. I then put it all on the back
burner for six months.
Then, earlier this year, someone
offered to buy one from me for $800. I thought this was a sucker
price so gladly let it go. Two weeks later, that last
batch of Altairs and drives went on Ebay. The computers
sold for roughly $2K apiece. As a lark, I immediately listed a
MITS serial board and modem board on Ebay. At the time
I was so ignorant about what I had that I listed them
separately. I did not even know that together they are
a cassette interface. One brought $250 and the other $200.
I could not believe it. $450!
Like everyone on this list, I was somewhat shocked that
the computers had actually sold for $2K. When I first discovered
this list (six months ago) I posted asking for your opinions
of the value
of an Altair 8800. As always, you all were very responsive.
I vividly remember Jim Willing stating that, in his opinion,
the 8800 was worth $250.
So I concluded that the $2000 Ebay bids
must be the "real" sucker price. I offered the
buyer of my boards one of my 8800's
for $2K. Sold it.
Then a week later sold him two more for $1500 each.
I now had payed for every Altair item I had ever
bought and had a tidy profit as well. I was ecstatic.
Then, needless to say, I started to actively buy them again.
Went back to my one (and only) source and bought four more
8800's, one 8800a, two 8800b's, one turnkey b, one Attache, seven
Altair floppy drives, two MITS hard drives, controllers,
four Imsai's, three Sol 20's, every iminaginable software,
and enough docs and literature to fill a four
drawer filing cabinet. And I stumbled onto what
may be the only surviving example of a still unassembled
Altair 8800 kit. Up until last week I had been able
to have it all shipped to me but the last load was too much
to ship so I drove almost 2000 miles round trip to retrieve
it.
When I returned Friday a friend informed me that two
Altairs had been listed the day before on Ebay.
(I still do not understand the amazing coincidence
of two separate sellers listing Altair's within 35 minutes
of each other since it had been four months since the last
ones were listed).
It occurred to me that since the Altair's were about to be
hyped again that I should participate. Since I had just
come home with five Altair floppy drives, I decided that
was the logical thing to sell. The auction ends today (Friday).
My source for buying ended abruptly last week (that is
another whole story). So it is unlikely that I will be able
to buy any
more. I now think of the six months I passed on them because
I would have had to pay $400. If I had kept buying during that
time I would have a great many more of them now.
But I feel very fortunate to have the ones I do.
Why am I telling you all of this? It is because I have
been engaged in buying and selling collectibles for
25 years. I was in on the beginnings of many other
of these kinds of phenomena (jukeboxes, antique radio,
Coca-Cola, the list is long). But I have never had so
much fun as I have had with this. There is no doubt that
my involvement with it is totally different from that
of everyone else on this list. And I am certain that
(based on much of what I have read here) that many
will find it deplorable that someone like me is a
subscriber.
But the personal computer is now as important as the electric
lamp was 100 years ago. And, over time, the first examples
will be regarded with the same reverance as Edison's first
light bulbs. I feel lucky to be one of the people witnessing
the birth of that.
Bob Wood
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Well I still have alot to sort out but here is a short list of finds for
this week:
1) Beckman model 999 IC tester have not powered it up yet
2) Two Radius MacII Page Display cards
3) About 30+ different books, spec sheets, and manual
4) 28 game cartridges for the Vic20
5) 4 2600 game cartridges
6) 2 C64 cartridges
7) Various Apple II cards
8) A clone Numeric keypad for the Apple II
9) 2 Vic20 power supplies not tested
10) 1 Plus/4 power supply not tested
11) HES Mon mini assember for use with Vic20 in box with manual
12) Cardram 16k memory expansion cartridge for thr Vic20
13) Radio Shack and other brand computer cassette tapes - new
That's all I can list for now as I still have a van loaded with boxes and
about 6 boxes of items to sort in the garage. I will update later with
anything of importance. Keep Computing!! John
On Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:56:27 +0200 (CEST), colan said:
cl>Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not
cl>been able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came
cl>with a PCjr?
PCDOS 2.1 was released specifically for the PCjr. 2.1's floppy drive
access was slowed down considerably because the drive in the PCjr was
so flimsy that it would break if it was used faster. MSDOS 2.11 was
the generic version available from Microsoft, and there also were
versions 2.2 and 2.25 with specific international support added.
"In march 1984, a year after the PC-XT introduction, IBM released DOS
version 2.1 to excise these software errors [that were in verson 2.0]
and to handle a hardware error it produced, called the PCjr."
Try to find "DOS Power Tools" by Paul Somerson, ISBN 0-553-34526-5,
Bantam computer books, from which is the above quote. It has very
detailed explanations of the workings of DOS, a great many tips and
tricks, a disk with 200 PC Magazine machine code utilities, and a
long chapter on the development of DOS, from 1.0 to 3.3, which was
the latest version when the book was printed.
Kees
--
Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered
>Interesting point. This auction could have been staged simply to raise
>the perceived value of the Altair 8800 just before someone dumps 25 of
>them on the market.
>
>Or someone may just be that stupid.
>
>Two theories. Take your pick.
What's the old saying?
"Never attribute to malice what should be attributed to stupidity?"
(Or something like that)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of ' ' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
At 10:53 AM 8/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
>able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr?
>
>
>colan
My NEC APC uses MSDOS 2.11, on an 8" floppy.
Regards
Charlie Fox
>
>
>
>
Why don't we do everyone a real favor and just drop this whole thing. I'm
getting a 7.1GB drive next week, anyway.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) <red(a)bears.org>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: FW: Dos v2.11 apology
> Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 11:10 PM
>
> On Fri, 14 Aug 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote:
>
> > It's NOT that Windows won't work, I can't FIT anything on the HD. It's
> > ONLY 100MB, and Windows takes up 90-some, and the rest by MS-Mail, and
IE
> > 3.02. Leaving a total of about 5 MEG.
>
> Ah, you just want to complain. Imagine running Windows 95 on such a small
> disk and expecting to have room for anything larger than three gnats and
a
> toenail clipping...
>
> > PS>> just forget about your hat.
>
> PS>> try Windows 3.11
>
> "here's a nickel, kid, buy yourself a real OS"
> r.
>
>
This has been roughly my experience. I have one poor thing that takes about
5 minutes, hey, it is after all, 20 years old. :) My light never goes out
that I remember though, but it does blink in faster increments up to the
point it stays steady. I have two apple ///'s with profiles that are
currently operational, allthough one comes up much faster than the other. I
think it waits for the drive to "come up to speed"
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: R. Stricklin (kjaeros) <red(a)bears.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, August 15, 1998 6:49 AM
Subject: RE: Apple III & Profile
>On Sat, 15 Aug 1998, Doug Spence wrote:
>
>> IIRC, it was more like 140 seconds. :/ That's for cold start, when it
>> goes into blinking mode after a command is issued to it, I think the
>> blinking time is shorter.
>
>On powering up the ProFile disk:
>
>"The red ready light on the ProFile's front panel will come on for about 2
>seconds, go off for about 20 seconds, and then start to flash for about 40
>seconds while the drive runs internal tests. When the tests are
>successfully completed, the light will remain on continuously without
>flashing. Under some conditions the ProFile may take up to 3 minutes to
>complete the startup sequence."
>
>ok
>r.
>>> Hmm, well I don't know about Prodos or the 'catalyst' proggy that people
>>>are
>>> mentioning, I know I managed to get directory listings from my drives
>>>without
>>> either, although it *may* have been using a diagnostics disk that came
>>>with
>>> the drive.
>>
>>That's what I thought. I don't have Prodos or catalyst, but the SOS
>>utilities disk with the drivers and setup programs seems to indicate that
>>I should be able to access the drive without anything fancy.
hmm, I should hopefully be going up to my folk's place in two or three
weeks time - if I do and this is still a problem then I'll try to get
access to my /// and see what's what (I can't remember how far back in
the pile it is though :)
>> The READY light doesn't go out, it just stops blinking. It stays *on*. I
>> hope I didn't imply otherwise in my original post, else that could be a
>> source for confusion.
>> It makes sense to me that the READY light would stay on when the drive is
>> ready.
that sounds right to me, too :) But at least it's changing state - I
guess I'd expect it to carry on blinking if there was a fault. (Out of
interest, how long was it blinking for? Seem to remember it used to be
somewhere around 30-40 seconds on my drives)
>
>> I played with it again, and I CAN get it to run from slot 3. But I have
>> to use the Profile controller board that was originally in slot 4, into
>> slot 3. Only one of the controller cards gets a response from the drive,
>> so I guess one is dead.
Interesting. My problem was probably that more than one card couldn't be
configured at once then (maybe I should get hold of a copy of prodos
>from somewhere and that'll sort things out? I can't imagine the firm
that originally used this machine swapping drives around all the time!)
>
>> Unless the cabling is wrong. :) I'm using a straight-through 25-pin
>> cable, and it's 6 feet long. Maybe the Profile doesn't like cables longer
>> than a foot in length or something? Or maybe it's supposed to have
>> different wiring?
well, I remember the cable didn't have any twists in it - ie. it was
either a full crossover or straight-through. One of my cables is
original, and it's no more than a foot long. Chances are these things
would suffer from interference - try a shorter cable and see if it
helps.
>
>> Thanks Jules, you're the only one not to try to involve Prodos so far. ;)
ooh, give me time... :)
really must get back into using the /// and finding out what there is
available for it - everyone seems to hate the machine, but it seems an
interesting beast to say the least!! (Last time I used it though it made
me realise how used I was to MS-DOS, SOS being the nightmare that it
is...)
cheers
Jules
>
Over 90% of the external modems I have dealt with were 9vdc, 500ma, but
there is always an exception, and in this case, that is probably the case.
At 04:38 PM 8/14/98 -0700, Kevin McQuiggin wrote:
>You need an AC adapter. Anyone know the correct voltage for this model of
>modem??
>
>Kevin
>
>>
>> I just got a 2400 external modem without a power cord the modem is a
>> packard bell PB2400PLUS anyone know what kind of power cord it takes(dose't
>> say anything in the manual about specs on the power cord) the jack that the
>> power cord goes into looks like a hole with a stem in the middle of it
>> looks like the size of a mini stereo jack
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
>mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
>
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
Hello everybody.
I was wondering if anyone out there had an old Mac Portable (the Mac
laptop) that they'd want to sell. I really don't want to pay all that much
for it, and I don't need anything all that fast (I don't know all that much
about Macs), but it needs to run at least System 6.0.5. The main reason
that I'm looking for one, is that my school uses mainly Macs (the only PC's
that they have are a few XT's that you need to turn off the lights to read
the monitors), and I don't have a Mac. Whenever I'm working on a project,
I'm confined to the 40 minutes of classtime to get it done. I'm not
looking for a full-sized Mac, because (1) I don't have the room, and (2), I
sort of need the portability, because It's not very often that I'm at home
before 8:30 or 9:00 PM, and at that time I don't really feel like working
on stuff for school.
All I'm really asking is that it works, and can run System 6.0.5 (that's
what my school uses).
As always,
ThAnX in advance,
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
Folks,
This message might be borderline annoying to some, in which case I
humbly apologize, but I really wanted to give it a bit wider
distribution than its original list. I'd be very sad if they didn't
sell and had to be trashed; not quite like "Save the whales!"
Sales pitch follows, which you can happily ignore! Deleting is quite OK!
This is an unusual opportunity to obtain an historic machine of at least
some interest. These, as the message says, need cleaning up, but
apparently most are in good shape internally.
I have no connection with the seller, but believe him to be reputable;
he made a similar offer several months back, and there have been no
complaints at all about him on the List.
(Cliff, you can ignore all of what follows; if I got anything wrong,
feel free to holler, of course! (Cliff has an STW in tip-top
condition.))
The Friden STW was the standard desktop calculator of choice, widely
used, for scientists and engineers for several decades. It was the
successor to the ST, which was probably first sold in the early 1930s.
(Yes, the Depression! Friden started a successful company in Terrible
Times. It took an acquisition by Singer to destroy it.)
If you have any interest in historic calculators, this is an excellent
and very representative example. These machines had a different
architecture from today's electronic calculators, which I won't try to
explain (the message is too long, already!).
It's a motor-driven rotary machine with no printer, and a carriage. Its
capacity was usually 10x10x20, which is to say that it could multiply
two 10-digit numbers and display a 20-digit product. The Friden STWs
were very reliable and trustworthy when properly cared for.
It does all four operations of arithmetic automatically; also can do
d=a+(b*c) and d=a-(b*c). (These can be chained, so that the new a is the
old d, and new b and c are arbitrary, although either or both b and/or c
can be the same as the previous.) (Super-slow DSP, anyone?!)
Iirc, you can also display the sum or difference of two or more
quotients. It's practical to compute square roots on it by at least two
methods, I'm fairly sure. One uses a printed lookup table (hard to
find); the other is a clever semi-mindless algorithm called the "fives
method".
There are severe limitations on automatic transfers of numbers within
the machine; essentially, almost none. The numbers in the keyboards and
the results dials can be kept for the next calculation, however.
It has 10 columns of keys, 9 keys + a clear key in each column. You
could consider this a parallel-entry keyboard. (It was called a "full
keyboard.") The STW also has the unique, distinctive little 10-key
serial-entry multiplier section.
There are such features as selectively disabling the auto. clearing of
the main keyboard, also of the accumulator and/or the cycle counter
dials. Little knobs allow you to rotate the accumulator dials to preset
them (such as for rounding numbers). Many clever applications were
worked out based on accessibility of the individual parts of the
machine, so to speak.
Decimal points are not calculated by the mechanism at all, but there are
markers to keep things simple.
Speed is 600 cycles per minute.
One limitation is that subtracting one from the LSD of all zeros does
not give a string of 20 nines; you get about 14, iirc, on a standard
machine. "Full carryover" was an option. I think there is a warning bell
to signify an accumulator "sign change".
Just about sure that a stock Belden power cord will fit, but not sure
Belden still sells that particular item. (Sorry; don't have a Belden
catalog any more.) (It has three round pins, male on the calc, iirc, and
the center pin is offset and probably longer. It was a standard until
the rectangular-pin IEC connector so well known in computers supplanted
it.)
Hmmm... budding free-lance ad copywriter? (Heaven save us!)
No doubt, some work will be needed; it would be much wiser to remove the
covers and try to cycle the machine by hand to see that it doesn't jam.
The main driveshaft has a female threaded hole in the end for a
handcrank that you could make. If the machine jams under power, there is
a fiber gear (so I'm told by an experienced Friden tech.) that might
become damaged; he says it's a Major Pain to replace if you can get the
part, and parts are hard to come by! There is a crude safety clutch
(makes a terrible racket!), but it may not disengage before the fiber
gear strips.
Again, my apologies for the intrusion.
|* Nicholas Bodley *|* Electronic Technician {*} Autodidact & Polymath
|* Waltham, Mass. *|* -----------------------------------------------
|* nbodley(a)tiac.net *|* The personal computer industry will have become
|* Amateur musician *|* mature when crashes become unacceptable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:19:35 -0400
From: Julian Burke <julianb(a)ESPER.COM>
To: CALCLIST-L(a)TECHUNIX.TECHNION.AC.IL
Subject: Friden STW's for sale
Hello All, I'm not in this for profit but want to see these units go to
the right hands for collecting. I have a huge quantity of Friden STW's
for sale @ $30 each. These are as-is complete, dirty from long term
storage, might be missing a button or two and NO power cords. $30 +
shipping and packing from Knoxville, Tennessee. They will weigh 44
pounds each packed, so consult with UPS for shipping prices from ZIP
code 37909. If interested, I have "worse" (needing more cleanup or for
parts) for less and better units for more. Most people who have
purchased from me before say the insides look great and after a good
"typewriter bath", they survived very well. Hurry while selection is
good. I have hundreds of calcs for possible trade (cash also) and am
looking for a WANG 360SE at this time. (Suitcase with 4 slave calcs
>from the mid 70's) Thanks, Julian Burke
To unsubscribe send the command: unsubscribe CALCLIST-L
to LISTSERV(a)techunix.technion.ac.il
The email address of this list is : CALCLIST-L(a)techunix.technion.ac.il
---
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--
Warbaby
The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire.
http://www.warbaby.com
The MonkeyPool
WebSite Content Development
http://www.monkeypool.com
Dreadlocks on white boys give me the willies.
At 02:34 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>$12100 for the world's flakiest S-100 box:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=24409570
>
>(and the reserve was still not met, but I bet the guy sells, what do you
>think?)
I think this whole auction reeks of bull-shit! Everything from the
opening bid of $2500 to reserve of OVER $12,000 and the seller's
insistance of 1 day UPS delivery smells of being a FAKE!
Joe
I'll be doing a rescue early next week from a local company that's
surplusing out some old PDP-11's. There's more than I can use, so I will
happily parcel out what I don't need.
There will be at least one 11/04, possibly one or more 11/23's, and some
DSD-880 boxes. I'll post a list to the group once I get done collecting and
sorting.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Well.....
----------
> From: Daniel A. Seagraves <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: FW: Dos v2.11 apology
> Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 2:43 AM
>
> [Uses MSmail?]
>
> I'd rather just get a telnet client and talk straight to the SMTP
interface
> than use Outlook.
> In fact, I normally do.
>
> HELO myhostname
> MAIL FROM: me
> RCPT TO: you
> DATA
> xyzzy
> .
> QUIT
>
> -------
> I'm impressed but try again! I have asolutely no problems in all 4
> corner of any worlds even on 386sx 25 bandaid notebook I have.
> (sloooowwwwly). What is your toshiba laptop?
>
Well, it's a VERY crappy 100MHz Pentium w/ 8 meg of RAM. The HD has blown
4 times already. Half the time the CD-ROM and floppy don't work, and
Resume never worked. The screen shattered about 3 months ago (while I was
using it). The modem may be part of the problem. It's a IBM 14.4 made for
Win 3.1 and OS/2, using software for a totally different modem, because
it's the only driver that works.
> No excess frill programs, extras to foul up your installation
> attempts?
>
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
The hard drive or the computer? If you're talking about the HD, than I
know what you mean. If you mean the computer, just go to the elementary
school that I used to go to -- They had 30 of 'em. The one that I have now
(and my other two 1000's) were given to me by my high school -free...
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com>
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: Philips XT with 768K
> Date: Thursday, August 13, 1998 1:22 AM
>
> > I also have a neat XT. It's not a Phillips, but a Tandy 1000. It has
768K
> > RAM, and a 12MHz 286 processor. Only, I still have the problem of not
> > being able to access the upper memory. Being a Tandy, it's even harder
to
> > find a driver. Another setback is it's HD. It's a 20MB Western
digital -
> > and slow as a turtle. Does anyone, by any chance, have a spare
> > XT-compatible IDE HD without a stepper motor driving the heads??
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> That may be very hard to find!
> - don
>
Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> wrote:
> An an amateur quasi-historian, I think the misperception about the
> Altair's significance is a shame. There are computers that were produced
> in similar numbers that are much more interesting, and even more fun to
> play with.
Here's what is significant about MITS and the Altair 8800:
It arrived on the scene with a price that firmly fixed in lots of
folks' heads the idea that "I can own a computer." And it was
obviously a useful computer that could be expanded to do real work
just like the real computer in the fishbowl at the office, not
something that could only be appreciated through the lights and
switches on its front panel.
And MITS' hardware was flaky enough that other folks felt encouraged
to build stuff for its bus, and even build other systems using its
bus. That made the Altair bus a de facto standard of its day,
and one that stuck around for the next few days too.
> The Altair and the Apple 1 both started at about the same time, but the
> Apple went on to have a much greater impact on "personal" interactive
> computing in the form of the Apple ][. IBM's PC was a response to the
> Apple ][, and that set the stage for the way things have been ever since.
I'd venture to say that Altair buyers saw the Altair as having the
potential to be this sort of "interactive" machine too. The base
configuration wasn't, but it was clear that you could buy more memory,
a current-loop interface, a Teletype, and run BASIC. And that was the
goal a lot of folks had then. That put you in the big leagues with
the minis that you might be using at work or in school, and put the
user in control of the computer.
That said, I think that if MITS hadn't done it with the Altair,
someone else would have done it soon enough.
-Frank McConnell
>
>I think you're the third person this year I know of that has found the
>sole surviving Altair kit :-)
I think what may have happened, Doug, is that over the
course of the year I have mentioned it in passing to
some of the people who read this list. I am not known
to you folks so I am guessing that the same unassembled
kit was brought to your attention by others. If that is
not the case and other kits have been found I would sincerely
like to hear from
those who may be in possession of them. I have some unanswered
questions about the example I found and would like to
compare it to any others.
>
>But the Altair wasn't the first personal computer, so maybe the Ford
>Model-T would be a better analogy. The Altair's place in history is
>really about Microsoft and the early hobbiest movement, not about
>computers in general. Affordable desktop computers have been around
since
>the 60's (and even the late 50's if you include analog machines like
the
>EC-1 at $199).
I did not
mean to suggest that the Altair was the 1st PC or even the
1st micro. However, the Altair is perceived at this time
to be "the start of it all" and it is the one that is available in
enough numbers to become a collectible. The Mark 8 and Scelbi,
for example, suffer from extreme rarity. They are now virtually
non existent. So will never attract the widespread interest of
the Altair.
numbers
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
I'm just forwarding this mail I received.
Please respond directly to them.
>We have a Tandy 1000EX computer that was given to us
>about four years ago and was a great word processor,
>game player, etc. at the time. Since then we have
>upgraded slightly to a Pentium, 64 M of RAM, etc.
>We have no more need for the Tandy, and would like to
>know if there is any one that has a hankering for relics,
>like your museum or just a personal collector. We have
>the printer, complete computer with monitor, and user's
>manuals. We also have some software for it.
> We would certainly appreciate any help you may be able
>to give us in selling the Tandy. We live in El Paso, TX,
>and would respond to any inquiries about it. Thank you.
>James and Michelle Herrick
>jandmherrick(a)prodigy.net
=========================================
Doug Coward dcoward(a)pressstart.com
Senior Software Engineer
Press Start Inc.
Sunnyvale,CA
Curator
Museum of Personal Computing Machinery
http://www.best.com/~dcoward/museum
=========================================
I have bwbasic 2.20, but it leaks memory horribly. This is
Digital UNIX, so I can't use Chipmunk. I found another BASIC for Unixes,
but it only works on m68000 Unixes, PDP-11s, Pyramids, and VAXen.
IS there any other decent BASIC interpreters out there for UNIXes?
-------
Okay, everyone with a spare IMSAI, let's all get together and have a few
"auctions" on e-bay. How about a reserve of $50K, starting bid at $15K,
$1K increments. That's just for a box, cards are extra.
Jack Peacock
Has anyone confirmed with Laura Lemay that she actually paid
or intends to pay $12,000 for an Altair, or could this be a hoax
perpetrated on her? I sent an e-mail asking for a confirmation,
and have heard nothing... This all comes back to my inherent
skepticism about online auctions as a useful method of determining
"street price." Where's a mechanism for confirmation of the
selling price? How can we detect shills?
- John
< For anyone else (Allison??) who is interested in RT-11
Been running RT-11 in various flavors since '78.
< One day I even booted a TU-58 from 1978 with
< a tape cartridge holding files from a 1978 version
I still have two systems with the TU58 and real PDP-11 hardware.
one is a PDT-11/130 and the other a BA11va shoebox with tu58.
< TU-58, it was still quite a thrill to be able to boot
< the 20 year old TU-58 with 20 year old software.
and a 20 year old system!
Allison
>pretty much a non-starter. The Altair was an improvement, but it was a
>pretty much a non-starter that fizzled after about 10,000 units. The
it that day 10,000 was a lot of systems!
< >Altair was the grandfather of the S-100 bus and CP/M, both of which
< >fizzled and left only a minor mark on MS-DOS, which didn't fizzle.
S100 would be dominent through the mid 80s. S100 system were being built
with 80386s and ran faster than the PCs with same.
I have a Compupro 8086/8088 10mhz that was faster than any IBM PC
hardware in 1982.
CP/M left a major mark on MS-dos being the source point!
Also the idea of a BIOS is a CP/M concept.
< >survivor. So, if somebody were really looking at collecting Altairs as
< >machine that "started it all", I think they have been misled and would
< >better off collecting the IBM PC, early Apples, early HP desktops, the
< >PDP-8, and all of the PDP-1's they can find :-)
To many slighly older PDP-8 and HPs were the early for runners for the
small size and proximate affordability.
< money, the prices lept ahead - but only in the brands which the collecto
< recognised. The Altair is recognised as significant, is relativly
< uncommon, and every article on computer history sings it's praises. You
< could almost guarentee that the prices would go up.
It's significance was that it was real and well exposed by Popular
Electronics. The Mark-8 was less real in that it wasn't available as a
complete kit or well presented. There are predecessor machines to both.
If we want the first Microcomputer why not the intel MCS-8? You could buy
one complete before either Mark-8 or Altair by many years.
As to extoling the virtues, altair was in teh right place at the right
time. Technically it was a DOG. The IMSAI was a vastly superior machine.
Allison
Geez, I'll bet our own Jim Willing is pretty disappointed that his only sold
for $4213.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=24405966
What the heck is with that? Two Altairs auctioned simultaneously, with a 3x
price differential.
Guess I'm sitting on a fortune with my 5 Altairs, but I'd never sell them
(and I mean that, whereas Jim used to say he'd never sell his either).
Kai
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 12:34 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Altair prices
$12100 for the world's flakiest S-100 box:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=24409570
(and the reserve was still not met, but I bet the guy sells, what do you
think?)
That's a 600% increase from the last batch, and even beats the last Apple
1 sale I know of. I'll bet that the bidders get solicitations for about
100 Altairs in the next few days.
-- Doug
I spent part of the morning troubleshooting my BA123, turns out that I
didn't have a blown powersupply <whew>, instead I had managed to short the
power plug that goes to the TK-50, got that fixed, and it powers up just
fine. So I then pulled out the MicroVAX II CPU, memory, and some other
boards, and turned it into a PDP-11/23 :^)
However, I'm finding myself fighting the path that 'snakes' through the
backplane. Would someone be kind enough to explain it to me? I wish DEC
had done like SMS did and print it on the case! It's real easy to add and
remove Q-Bus cards from my SMS-1000's. I'm interested in both the BA23 and
BA123 backplanes.
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)ix.netcom.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/ |
< Someone posted saying that there in fact was a 2.11 which I've not been
< able to find reference to. By any chance was that what came with a PCjr
I've seen it on PC xts, DEC VAXmates and S100 8086 boxen.
I still have disks with the original distribution markings (long since
reformatted).
Allison
Being the custodian of an Altair, an IMSAI system, a clutch of
NorthStars, etc., etc.... I am of the opinion that any activity
which tends to *preserve* the items of our interest is intrinsically
a Good Thing.
I am a user and a collector of old systems, and I empathasize
strongly with the "Collect to Use" folks on this list. BUT: having
spent many years in the electronic surplus business, I also know that
side of things. Bob is making a good living in collectible computers
just now... 16 hrs a day 7 days a week (my kind of hours!!).... he
has discovered and turned over many classic systems... which would
be *where* today if not for his efforts??
I understand the frustration when dilletantes invade and a
collectible 'fad' develops... it does, unfortunately, prevent some
of us from having the hardware we want. I wish that wasn't so, but
it *is* the free market.
There are, however, many aspects of this hobby... and there are
some who collect to use, some who 'warehouse', some who collect to
trade.
To me, it all means that fewer Altairs will be lost forever....
My $.02, anyway.
Cheers
John
PS: My Altair came from a big rack of 70's-era aerospace test
systems... I first saw it in one of the buildings of the surplus
company I worked for from 78 - 82. At that time, it was just one of
those wierd old S-100 machines... and I couldn't afford the IMSAI I
wanted... I ended up with a Cromemco Z2H. It was not until I
joined this list that I remembered about the Altair.. so I went
back to the old place, got the keys to the room.. and there it was,
dusty and forgotten. I paid my ex-boss $50 for it, and the rescue
was done. No, there aren't any more... trust me, I *looked* ;}
J
OK... that's the -last- time I try to write something coherent when it's
the night after a 90-degree day, near midnight, with a temperature still in
the high 70's.
Bob, I must apologize to both you and the list. You caught the brunt of
one of my foulest moods to date. It's all to easy to forget that if the
seller and buyer are both happy with the price, fine. A good deal was struck.
However it's done, keeping vintage machines out of the hands of scrappers
is always a worthy goal. I may not always agree about pricing, but that's me.
I'll see a bunch of you at VCF 2.0. ;-)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272)
(Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
At 04:12 AM 8/14/98 -0400, Doug Spence wrote:
>Yes, it is odd that these models have no serial port. I remember bringing
>this up before about my 1000EX and being told I must've somehow missed
>seeing the port. :)
You mean I'm not crazy for not seeing this "invisible port" everyone was
talking about? :)
BTW, I never did return to the flea market to retreive that 1000 HX. It was
raining, I had the baby with me, it was bad karma all around. Maybe next
year...
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
This is good. If I'm lucky and things keep going like they are, my Apple
collection, which at original list prices is worth around $60k, should soon be
worth twice that. And, my PS/2 Model 80, which originally listed for $10k, will
bring that price again.
All we can hope for is that this craze will go the way of collectible sports cars --
after a short period of total insanity in which people were willing to pay $90k
OVER LIST PRICE just to get on a waiting list for an Acura NSX or a Viper, the
bottom fell out and nobody wanted to buy them from the morons who paid
double price for 'em.
I just hope that Jag XKE's come down to reality sometime again so I can own
one. And, I'd actually drive the damn thing instead of putting it up on blocks
under a cover in a locked, climate-controlled garage...........
Paul Braun
NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you.
nerdware(a)laidbak.com
www.laidbak.com/nerdware
< 1. What is the difference between a MicroVAX, VaxStation, and a
< VaxServer?
Everything or nothing depending on model. generally the
vaxserver/microvax have no or minimal video. Vaxstations are the higher
end video console.
< 2. How desirable are these 3100-30's? That is, is there software
< available, or are there any undesirable traits-- e.g. hard
< to upgrade, can only hold xx amout of RAM, etc?
Popular. the rest I cant answer as they are as unPC as they come. the
disks are SCSI and ram is simms(maybe oddball though).
Generally VMS runs in 4mb but 8mb or more is desireable, with 12mb it
sings and 16mb is the max.
< 3. What kind of display does this use? CRT/Keyboard, or terminal?
Varies from a serial terminal to high end color graphics.
<4. How do I tell the disk size, memory size, etc?
Test 50, show device, show mem at the >>> prompt.
< 5. What would be a 'reasonable' price (just a ballpark figure,
< I don't wanna spend $500 on a box that could be had elsewhere
< for $50).
NOT $500! free to 150(loaded). The monitors are worth more than the
systems in some cases.
I'll be selling a few Vaxserver3100 M10es 12meg ram and RZ24l Disk(245mb)
for $60 at MIT FLEA with VMS 5.5 (nolicense but useable for single user
and the DECUS license). This model has no video and uses a regular
terminal (I'm selling VT320s for those that may need).
< 6. Anthing else I should know before committing time/money?
depends on what you know of VAXen and the operating systems that run on
them. (VMS, Ultrix (some not all models), NetBSD netboot, hopefully
scsi support soon).
Allison
I think I can wait ten years for this one, maybe even less if it hits the
market like I think it will. ;)
At 09:20 PM 8/13/98 -0500, Doug Yowza wrote:
>Fascinating; it's a 486 machine that has absolutely nothing to do with a
>C64. Why would anybody in their right mind try to build that association
>for their product?
-
- john higginbotham ____________________________
- webmaster www.pntprinting.com -
- limbo limbo.netpath.net -
I agree totally. it's starting to happen around here also. thankfully, ive got
enough stuff already, but am always looking for more. several weeks ago,
someone posted to the list about a coleco adam for sale in nc. i emailed the
person who said ~10 people had bidded on it and she was taking the highest
offer. i was rather surprised as i thought i'd be able to get it for $10 or so
since no one else would be interested in it. I think that the well known
"rare" computers like lisae, altairs, and so forth will inflate in price
first, and then lessor known computers will not for a time, which means stock
up now while prices are still cheap.
In a message dated 98-08-13 19:35:05 EDT, Sam Ismail put forth:
<< We spoke on this topic last year, and I and a couple others prognosticated
that the then somehwat tame trend towards escalating prices for older
computers would reach the levels we are seeing today. It was just a
matter of how fast, and it basically came upon us as fast as I expected it
would. That's why I've been busy loading my garage up with stuff. I knew
well enough to get the goods while the getting's good. Once I've got some
spare time, I can sit back and enjoy tinkering with my (cheaply
accumulated) collection while the newly-interested collectors are
scratching and clawing for that latest "RARE TimexSinclair 1000!!!" on
eBay. >>
Oh, well, thinks like that do happen, and there's not much you can do about
it. I use MS-MAIL, and a lot of times, I don't even GET some of the
messages :-( I hate it, but it's all my computer will run. It seems like
every reader has it's problems.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
----------
> From: cdrmool(a)interlog.com
> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> Subject: Re: FW: Dos v2.11 apology
> Date: Wednesday, August 12, 1998 5:03 AM
>
>
> Sorry for the empty message back a bit. I understand some people were
> annoyed. Let me explain for those who don't use Pine as a mail reader.
> The cancel command ctrl-c and cancel ctrl-x are easy to mix up. Its
about
> as annoying as when using Telix and wanting to shell out (alt-j) and
> accidentally hang up (alt-h). Yes, you are prompted to make sure you want
to
> send after ctrl-x but if your not expecting it, simply expecting to
> cancel, hitting the return is done before the prompt is even seen. Also,
> being a reasonably fast typist leads to mistakes of overconfidence in
what
> has been typed. Remappimg the keyboard would be the obvious answer but
> after once doing so I caused new problems, so I don't bother.
> I promise it will never happen again.
>
> Colan
>
At 03:04 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
> Guess I'm sitting on a fortune with my 5 Altairs, but I'd never sell them
> (and I mean that, whereas Jim used to say he'd never sell his either).
Well, if I had an Altair, I think I'd probably put it up for auction -- I
desparately need a new roof, and I can think of a lot of more important
reasons to sell something I wouldn't normally think of selling. Can't
fault him, but I can be envious!
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 04:37 PM 8/13/98 -0700, you wrote:
>On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, the thread continued:
>
>> >Guess I'm sitting on a fortune with my 5 Altairs, but I'd never sell them
>> >(and I mean that, whereas Jim used to say he'd never sell his either).
>>
>> Ah... but you make an incorrect assumption... I still have all of my
>> Altairs.
>>
>> (dontcha just love a good mystery?)
>
>Aha! So what was your commission? ;)
>
>Sam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
Better than I expected since it cleared the reserve (by a fair bit)... It
should pay for my trip down to VCF II. B^}
-jim
---
jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
At 01:21 PM 8/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I find myself extremely
>> depressed by this. Does anyone know (personally) the fellow who put in
>> the high bid? Will the Altair be something of inherent value to him,
>> or is it simply an investment?
>
>I haven't looked at the URL but I'm sure I don't know anyone involved.
>
>It IS depressing, isn't it? I've been thinking about this aspect of computer
>collecting for a while. Someone on alt.folklore.computers said that he had
>verified the authenticity of an Apple I system (complete with original cover
>letter receipt signed by Steve Jobs, etc.) just before it was shipped across
>the country to a new buyer.
I'll tell you why it's depressing. We had such a good thing going-- the
whole
world was (is) dominated by the PeeCee, nobody but us *real* hobbyists cared
about the interesting "old" stuff. It was a *real* hobby-- anyone with a
*couple* (meaning two) of dollars could get into the act.
ALl you needed to have some truly interesting stuff was a voltmeter, a
terminal,
and just a little luck.
Well, kiddies, the party's over. "Investment Grade" antique technology is
here to stay, it seems. Well I'll tell you what, guys. They can *have* it.
I'll have nothing more to do with "Investment Grade" computers. One
experience
was enough to show me the level of perversion that can be attained with this
mindset.
>As I drooled over this, I realized that it's an extremely desirable thing to
>have (and this one in particular sounded rare) but the economics are just too
>warped. There are only a handful of these machines, right? And they just
>change hands and the prices go up. Also, it may be desirable to have, but
not
>to USE. The RAM is expandable to almost 64K (though I've never heard of this
>being done) but there's only one slot and the only card built for it was a
>cassette interface. The display is slow because it uses a shift register.
Yeah, it wasn't that great of a machine, even in it's own time (although, of
course, quite historic). But such was the lot of the hobbyist at the time.
>I'm just too practical, I guess. I believe in collecting things to use them/
>have fun with them, and the rarity of the Apple I is at odds with this goal.
>I too have to wonder at the motives of the buyer of this Altair.
It's all a matter of goals and priorities. There are goals that will
produce a
productive outcome if reached, and there are some that will produce a bad
outcome.
This is a good hobby, because even schoolkids withoout alot of money can
enjoy
the 'rush' of putting an old system together and running it (something *I*
couldn't
do when I was a kid).
But when it becomes a hobby for the rich, upper classes-- as many of the
'traditional'
hobbies have become-- then something will be irrevocably lost. Hopefully, we
are still a decade or so away from the complete commercialization of our
hobby.
I can't bear the though of the classic computer going the way of the
baseball card,
and the comic book . . .
>There IS the possibility that this is an elaborate "sour grapes" argument,
>given that I have neither an Apple I nor an Altair. :)
And what I'm saying is that you don't need them to enjoy the hobby. In
fact, I'm
convinced now that having *anything* that's considered 'Investment Grade'
would
*preclude* you from experiencing the enjoyment factor. Our Pre-PC heritage
is so
vast and diverse, there literally must be something (else) out there for
everyobody.
Jeff
*FOR SALE*
Slightly used SOAPBOX.
Used only once to annoy
computer geeks online.
> My hat stays frontwards. Internet Exploiter 3.2 and Mess-Mail, or
> Internet Exploder 4.0 with Overlook Expired, either take up so much
> room that I won't take the blame when something doesn't work --
> especially since you don't even have room for swap space. (Don't
> try to tell me that 80Mb of RAM stops Windows from swapping -- I
> thought that from the the original "specifications". NOT!)
It's NOT that Windows won't work, I can't FIT anything on the HD. It's
ONLY 100MB, and Windows takes up 90-some, and the rest by MS-Mail, and IE
3.02. Leaving a total of about 5 MEG.
--
-Jason
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#-1730318
PS>> just forget about your hat.
Guys:
I realize that this question has probly been raised before,
but I'll ask, as I cannot seem to find the answer. I have a
lead on a MicroVAX 3100-30, that I can get for what I *think*
is a pretty reasonable price. But before I dive into this,
I need to know:
1. What is the difference between a MicroVAX, VaxStation, and a
VaxServer?
2. How desirable are these 3100-30's? That is, is there software
available, or are there any undesirable traits-- e.g. hard
to upgrade, can only hold xx amout of RAM, etc?
3. What kind of display does this use? CRT/Keyboard, or terminal?
4. How do I tell the disk size, memory size, etc?
5. What would be a 'reasonable' price (just a ballpark figure,
I don't wanna spend $500 on a box that could be had elsewhere
for $50).
6. Anthing else I should know before committing time/money?
Jeff
| -----Original Message-----
| From: Doug Yowza [mailto:yowza@yowza.com]
| Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 2:17 PM
| To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
| Subject: Re: Who Bought It (RE: Altair prices)
|
| A babe with an Altair. I'm in love :-)
|
| -- Doug
You obviously didn't read her FAQ :)
Kai
Are you single?
-In the sense that I'm not married, yes. But I am taken. See Eric's home
page.
Will you go out with me?
-No.
Will you send me dirty email?
-No.
Will you post nude pictures of yourself?
-No.
Do you find horny geek questions like this really annoying?
-How could you guess?
