- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Jim about his Intellec/Altair thing. For shure, the Intellec is a >> nice thing, but everybody just looks at the Altair. > Except me :-). As I've mentioned before, years ago I was offered the > choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i (8080 CPU) and I picked > the Intellec. It looked to be the much more interesting machine. :) lucky one. I would love to get the Intellec, but I still have to work 9 to 5 for my money ... or better for tax paying :) So anything beside lets say 350 USD per month isn't possible for me. Gruss H. So, I hope I recive a lot of cheques from all of you, who are just cry about my bad situation and like to help a poor guy :)))))) Hey, at least I can try ! -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

2
1
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DOS disks?

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 or 3.3.... ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: DOS disks? Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/27/98 1:51 PM Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner and it works great. Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Thanks much, -- -------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 -- TRUE HEADLINE: Police To Begin Campaign To Run Down Jaywalkers ------------- ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct27.135124.1767.73039; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 13:51:25 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA18163; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:49:02 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA15072 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:48:57 -0800 Received: from oa.ptloma.edu (oa.ptloma.edu [192.147.249.102]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id KAA06 884 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:47:47 -0800 Received: (from ckaiser@localhost) by oa.ptloma.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA13158 for classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu; Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:52:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199810271852.LAA13158(a)oa.ptloma.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 10:52:23 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Cameron Kaiser <ckaiser(a)oa.ptloma.edu> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: DOS disks? Content-Type: text X-Sender: ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu X-Sender: ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 7 months

3
2
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CLASSICCMP digest 576

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Tim wrote: >Hint for those who haven't done much dumpster diving: back your car >or truck up to the dumpster, climb into the dumpster via your rear >bumper, and start tossing :-). In addition to giving you an easier climb, that also blocks the dumpster so that the trash truck can't get to it. Y'all be *careful* out there. I do *not* want to read about a compacted classic computer collector with his compacted hands clenched around a compacted Altair. Or even a Rainbow. - Mark

27 years, 7 months

1
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I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff

by mbg＠world.std.com

I found a person getting rid of a a couple of H960 tall cabs worth of DEC hardware -- and I'm the first one to have contacted him. I can take it all away... If I can find a place to store it (without having to completely reorganize the insides of my condo... I've got a call into RCS/RI for some space)... anyway, what I can get is an 11/34 (unknown condition) with a VT11, VR14 (and light pen) and an LPS11, as well as four (4) pdp-8s of various types with various media... !!! A pdp-8/a A pdp-8/e A pdp-8/f (the lab-8) another -8, I think it was an 8/m A couple of RL02s, Diablo style rk05s, rx01, dectapes... all in two tall cabs and a short cab. I don't want to let this one get away from me, so if I don't hear from RCS/RI, I may just have to compress (gzip) my condo... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

4
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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

> > > We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance > > > of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. > > Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... > Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his > wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool. BTW, has anybody still the URL ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

1
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Microvaxen bits etc.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Daniel T. Burrows <dburrows(a)netpath.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 1:35 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >For your ref. the delqa is a M7516 and add -YM for the "turbo" version. I >just checked the DDA for any listed in Australia and none are listed. If >you want I will go through the subscriber list and find some for you. DDA? Ok, thanks. Appreciated. >>While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, >>(around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good >>sources? >>S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. > > >I know it doesn't help much for shipping concerns but Datacom Warehouse >carries them for about $25 either 10base2 or 10baset. www.warehouse.com Not much. That equates to about A$50 plus shipping across the Pacific. But if all else fails. I am led to believe I can get a new one for about A$75 or so, but I need to confirm this. That's more than I wanted to pay, but I may not have a choice. >>BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? >>(With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) > >Which console cable are you looking for? I may have one. The multiplex cable with 2 d connectors at each end that go from the DEC Pro380 Vaxconsole to the backplane of the VAX 85xx series of computers. (Nautilus I think is the processor family) Thanks Geoff Roberts Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au (my other life)

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> We disagree here, as I still think it is a lot of fun. As far as the chance >>> of ending up with it, it is exactly what you are willing to pay for it. >> Like that guy who just bought the 1200XL on eBay for $600... > Evolution works. Depending on his age, either his parents or his > wife will kill him, a drop of chlorine in the gene pool. Maybe we could get a life transmission ? After all, its a real internet thing in the internet age, by internet stupidity. :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>process. (except what you are willing to dumpster dive for) Not that I >would ever do such a thing.:) ( I have made several thousand from such dives >over the years) So have I - several of the RSX-11 DECUS tapes that are now available from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11 were rescued from TRIUMF when they dumped all the 9-tracks they had in the Chem Annex. Hint for those who haven't done much dumpster diving: back your car or truck up to the dumpster, climb into the dumpster via your rear bumper, and start tossing :-). Tim.

27 years, 7 months

5
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ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when >>> somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically >>> when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but >>> it may cost you. >> Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( > As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? Hey, if somebody outbids me that way on a KIM-1 - Gee, best wishes to the seller :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

2
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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

> It isn't such a great price. HUD Economists really ought to study a > bit of economics (though I realize Economists don't set Economic > policy -- that's done by elected and appointed officials who wouldn't > know economics even when it bites them in the ass). Hey, whats this for a new kind of tecnology ? 'Elected officials' that are bitten by economy ? Get real, they have our taxes to avoide any complication with reality! They are so deeply pampered, they wouldn't even notice it if their campain manager wouldn't tell them that there is a thing calld bad economic situation. We had now for more almost 20 years a fat (right of the middle) gouvernment that cared a lot about the economy - especialy their personal one. Gruss H. (Do I get a bonus point for enhanced off topic rage ?) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Dolphin (was Re: ebay)

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

>Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? >A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I know, there was no "DTR-2." Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Bill Richman (bill_r(a)inetnebr.com) says >Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your maximum plus 50 >cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that Altair that's autographed by the >original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too >good at convincing myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the >"Oh yeah??? Well screw _you_ buddy - take THI$$$$$!" mindset that has led me to establish >new records for ridiculous prices on eBay... (But I _did_ get the item, dammit!! ;-) One must cultivate serenity and patience if one is to participate in auctions, oh Grasshopper. On the other hand, I just got a NEC 8201 (TRS-80 Model 100 clone) for only $36.00. (If this isn't such a great price, please dont' tell me. It will interfere with my serenity and patience.) Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

2
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Y2K and immortal executables

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But aren't there many machines that keep track of time and date? I've heard that credit cards are starting to fail if their expiration date is 2000. I don't know why all the fuss about the control tower computers or power plants (all scheduling should be doublechecked by humans anyway), but I'm sure there may be problems with checks/bills. >< >with in 1975, still running the same code. >< >< Sure, I can imagine that. But I can't imagine it will stop working >< on January 1, 2000, or that the clock couldn't be set back to 1975 >< without affecting the milling. > >Correction, what clock? Most control apps clocks are intervals, time >between events, maybe time of day or week for longer periods and its >rare that they even consider time of year. > >Keep in mind that until sometime past 1981ish clocks were not chips that >kept time of day/year. Of ten they were a periodic interrupt that was >totalized for time and date. So if the clock was broken it was software >not hardware. > >The one example where Y2K has hit a PDP-8 use was a nuke power plant >and the PDP-8 doing data logging had to print the right time date on >the page. If the time and date were wrong nothing stopped working >but the NRC would be upset with the dataing of the logs. FYI: Y2K >happens to hit every 7-8 years on PDP-8 OSs as they only use 3bits for >relative year. Bits used to be expensive! > >< If the source code has existed in some form since the late 50s or >< early 60s, no programmer since its creation has tinkered with it? >< I can imagine a slightly more plausible situation in which the source >< was written in 1961, recompiled and tweaked throughout the Sixties, >< and somehow the source was lost after recompilation in the Seventies >< so only the executable remains, and that it's been running in some > >This is likely the commonplace event and the machine by the 70s was >stable platform say like DG Nova, PDP-11 or other that has a lifespan >exceeding 10+ years or still being made. > >Lost in some cases means it exists and somewhere on a backup that is >in a room with 10,000 tapes of other backups that no one has looked >at for 7+ years. > >Heck my vax archive is over 7 years old and is more than 20 TK50s. I >don't recycle major backups as I've had tapes fail. So the deeper the >archive the less likely the loss and also harder to find a specific >item. This is only hobby use. business should do this far more often. > >< It's not that I'm denying Y2K - it's that I think it's overblown, >< especially when it comes to antique computers. > >Me too. Many system Y2K is a singular event or non event. The only >ones I even think about in relation to it are the PCs and maybe the >VAXen (I run VMS 5.3 to 5.5). The PDP-11s may not like the date but >most of the stuuff I do is not date centric so unless the OS breaks it >keeps cranking. The PC makes me worry as DOS/Win and internetorking >software may have bombs I don't know nor can fix myself. I've bumped the >clock and it seems to behave though. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

3
3
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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by franke＠sbs.de

> Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. depends - I'll like it more every day. > I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information > about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software > wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. Depends waht you think information is - if it's just about some date, most searchbots will give you faster information (heaps). But if its about living knowledge the list is great. I'm talking to people, not a database - and the asociative search engine here delivers very interesting, related things beside just numbers. In fact, most of all questions I ever had to get information of a special kind from the listended up nowhere, but I recived _very_ interesting implications about the information I needed (And I'm still searching for a second Commodore B500 and who owns the ROM rights on the KIM-1). > What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers It's an idea with some relations to the past (you know, the good old times) wich imples a lot about fundamental things. And if People are arguing about, it can't be realy OT (even I belive it was just a troll). > What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers Now come on - where you living ? eBay is a mayor place for trade of our old stuff. Hey, this is on topic as on topic can ever be. That are actual problems of collecting. > What does a modern college education have to do with old computers See the fist one - just a good old time thing - AND a never ending question if we are the last generation able to build a computer from scratch, even including the CPU. > I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found > that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot > checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Reading just the headers is missleading - very missleading. I did it sometimes, especialy when they where talking about DEC stuff, where I have no personal link, even no information about, and before I even realized I passed some _very_ interesting themes - nobody can reflect complex things in just a header. I've learned my lesson - now I peek at least inside _every_ message. > Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. Hmm ever noticed that the FAQ is very vague about it ? Maybe because a living list was intendet, not a list where no talks at all are happening, because nobody is able to say soooo important things that the holy charter will grant him the right to post ? > 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. Good for you. Single source information is always bad. Gruss H. I beg for excuse for some cynic parts, but I cant withstand my nature, especialy when its abaut regualtions. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Dolphin (was Re: ebay)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? >>A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? > No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, > pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for > "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I > know, there was no "DTR-2." One more for the I-Want-Them-All list. :) H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> At 10:00 AM 10/27/98 -0000, you wrote: >>Sam wrote: >>> But I ended up getting a visit from my friendly >>> neighborhood police. It seems some local concerned citizen saw me pulling >>> out all sorts of computer gear from the trash and decided something evil >>> was being perpetrated. Go figure. >> >>What did the police have to say about it? >> >>At what point does the contents of the dumpster become publicly available? >>I imagine that this might be a different point than the one at which police >>are aloud to search for evidence, but IANAL. > > I know a couple of guys that dumpster dive nearly every night. The > police have pulled them over numerous times. They usually check them and > their stuff then let them go. Sometimes they tell them to leave but that's > all. They've never been taken in or arrested. FWIW There was a court case > (supreme court?) some years ago that involved the police searching trash > cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and > placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly > available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash > dumpsters are still located on company property so this may have no bearing. I don't know what the law is in the UK regarding dustbins (trashcans) but regarding skips (dumpsters) it is something like: Person X makes a contract with a waste disposal contractor Y. Y delivers a skip to X's premises, and probably leaves it in the road (at precisely the worst place for motorists trying to get around it :-) ). X throws stuff into the skip, but it remains X's property, and to pull it out is theft. Eventually X has thrown in all he wants and phones up Y to collect the skip. When Y does, the stuff in the skip becomes Y's property. At work, I used to skip-dive a lot. I was once told that I was breaking the law because I had removed a Superbrain from the skip. Not so - I am a PowerGen employee; the item was PowerGen property, and I hadn't removed it >from the PowerGen site; I actually offered L15 for it, since that is what I thought it was worth. However, skip-diving is now officially banned. I have been quite strongly warned off several times, once for just looking at the skip! The warnings came from quite high up, passed down through my boss. They claim there is a policy by which items are offered to staff before disposal. Some stuff (PCs etc.) is offered by competitive tender. Some stuff (Commodore 8296) is offered to me personally for L1. But a lot (incomplete Silicon Graphics Personal Iris) just goes in the skip anyway. I don't know how much goes in the skip - I don't go there very often now :-( - but I just happened to be walking past and saw the Iris :-( :-( Philip.

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 >> months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > > Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law > (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Apply it to the memory sizes of computers and it seems to work: in 1974 a small computer was a PDP-11/05 with perhaps 16 K bytes of memory (up to 56 K if you were lucky, IIRC). 24 years later = 16 * 18 months, a small computer is a pentiyuck PC with rather less than 2^^16 * 16 K = 1 gigabyte, but not that much less. A computer in the same market slot as the 11/05 is perhaps a Sparcstation, in which a gig of memory is by no means out of the question... > Hmm I will have my 88th by then - jets join :) Your place or mine? :-) :-) Philip.

27 years, 7 months

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Commodore 128D

by maxeskin＠www.hotmail.com

Well, it's been about two months, and I still haven't started on the C128D that Hans gave me (sorry, Hans!). Could someone please post the PSU pinouts for it (this is the one with an internal PSU)? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Dolphin (was Re: ebay)

by franke＠sbs.de

> Does Stephen own a Dauphin? I don't think they're quite old enough > for the "classic" definition. Dauphin ? You're not talkin about the Dolphin ? A kit system from the late 70's from Swizzerland ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Haggle Online (Was: ePay)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. >> This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. > I wish it were this simple. eBay already has the reputation among > "collectors" (I use that term to include the speculators and idiots as > well) as being THE place to go to sell and buy vintage computers. I'd > much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific > "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). > Someone has to come along and actively market their site as THE place to > buy/sell vintage computers, and then institute a good auction policy that > will cut down on the gripes we are hearing here. I don't think that 'marketing' is the most needed. It needs some different details to get more attention. The Antique Computer colume is one step - also keeping the theme (dash out OT). But there is still this anoying min bid thing and the sniper possibility (althrough I haven't seen any special Haggle sniping SW until now). Why I'm aginst min bids ? Now, first it prevents from giving a bin in an amount I think is reasonable. Second, thru canceling this maybe very low bid, it avoids any bidding competition wich eventualy will rise the price above ana limit. For an example there is an actual SX-64 on Haggle with an min bid of 75 USD and no bid from any of the more than 30 visitors. When comparing to eBay, where SXes are sold for something like 70 to 120 USD the price idea isn't wrong, but nobody jumps in. While on eBay such a SX starts at some 10 USD and rises. In fact, until now the minbid has disatracted me from at least 5 items. I maybe would have end at a price above the min bid, within the auction, but for shure to expensive to start with. The reserved price thing, where the seller reserves the richt to refuses if a specific price isn't reached is a lot more usefull. No seller will claim his reserved price if the auction ends just 5 USD below, but at least a price is negotiated. The only thing I dislike is the automatic lift to the reserve, if the _maximum_ bid is above. > I'm ready to start if someone is willing to follow my lead. Oh master, be my leader (Or was it Heil Salaam?). SCNR. For real, I look at Haggle Online at least twice a week, but as long as I cant't go for what I need, I have still to stay at eBay. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

> Rather than looking at sniping as a "bug", perhaps it should be > considered a "feature". There are scavengers in all ecosystems. I > guarantee you the powers at Ebay probably consider sniping to be an > asset. If they got rid of it, bid traffic would be 20 or 30% lower and > prices overall (complete total) might actually be lower. Perhaps sniping > is one of those key reasons why Ebay has grown so large. Please ? The whole idea of sniping is just to avoide a real competition situation. In fact, it may lower the price of all 'needed' goods, because nobody will get a chance to top the sniper. So a final price might have been higher. And bid traffic isn't a thing a auction system like eBay need - Traffic is just cost to pay and lowers profit. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>DDA? Ok, thanks. Appreciated. The DDA Trader is a monthly publication for used DEC dealers listing what parts they have and prices. I can't afford the approx.$100 per month but have some friends that send me their 1 or 2 month old ones. It also has about a 75 page section listing all the subscribers names and locations (30+ per page) sorted alphabetically by name of course not location. Let me know if you can't find something (I noticed a good response later in this tread) and I will see what I can find. Dan Burrows dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

you might want to ask the regulars over in alt.dumpster about this. seems some of them on that ng have gotten hassled by The Man when they were dd'ing and even charged with criminal mischief depending on the cop's mood. david In a message dated 10/27/98 7:41:29 AM US Eastern Standard Time, rigdonj(a)intellistar.net writes: > I know a couple of guys that dumpster dive nearly every night. The > police have pulled them over numerous times. They usually check them and > their stuff then let them go. Sometimes they tell them to leave but that's > all. They've never been taken in or arrested. FWIW There was a court case > (supreme court?) some years ago that involved the police searching trash > cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and > placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly > available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash > dumpsters are still located on company property so this may have no bearing.

27 years, 7 months

1
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Fairchild Channel F

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi all, It's been claimed.... Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Francois <fauradon(a)pclink.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, October 24, 1998 5:46 PM Subject: Fairchild Channel F >Hi, >I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel >F. >It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. >Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com > > >Francois >------------------------------------------------------------- >Visit the desperately in need of update >Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >

27 years, 7 months

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Now quite OT: Re: ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the >> idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay. > There's not many things as demoralizing than seeing something nifty with a > bid of $2.00 on it and someone has put a maximum bid of $50.00 on it. The > whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that > soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: > "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" Shure, real auctions are real fun, but a proxy auction is the closest thing possible without going for a sealed bid auction, since it combines both for the well of the buyer. > What I'd love to see is a live auction site, where the auctions for each > item don't last more than 10 minutes or so. Descriptions/pictures for the > items could be on a separate server a week in advance (like the preview > for a real auction) and an item catalog that people could print out. Just for my information - are you willing to put up an pay my private line to this auction centre ? At the usual afternoon to midnight traffic jam on the trans atlantic conections, I sometines need four or five minutes to reload an eBay page. Gruss H. Kai mentioned Haggle online (I still laugh at the lit'l characters:), but as long as they still only do the same (including suporting this stupid minimum bid thing - where is the sense of a min bid beside avoide getting sold?) as eBay, I belive they woun't go for number one. Just putting up a good category isn't enough (even if he would enshure that less noise is inside Antique Computers). -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Stephen Dauphin >There was a recent discussion on the list of being dropped on a desert island and >establishing civilization. I say we parachute Sam in his underpants with a knife and a >compass into some podunk in the Midwest, and see how fast he comes up with a Vintage >Computer Festival, even the size of the first, from scratch. Podunk Junction happens to be in central Iowa. I could steer Sam to someone I know near there who has two Kaypro 10s and a Kaypro letter quality printer, which will get him started. Does Stephen own a Dauphin? I don't think they're quite old enough for the "classic" definition. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

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floppy drive storage

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, Have you ever seen those shipping cardboard floppy mockup that you usually get with a new drive? That would be the ideal. Short of that you could probably make your own with rigid but non-abrasive carboard, use a floppy as a template and off you go... Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com <SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 9:15 PM Subject: floppy drive storage >I have about 27 apple floppy drives as well as other floppy based machines and >am wondering about their long term storage. is it better to close the drive's >latch or leave it unlatched? i would think that having the drive latched/door >closed would keep the drive from possibly getting misaligned if it got moved >or bumped around but on the other hand, having the drive closed for long >periods of time could possibly deform the head load pad. comments? > >david >

27 years, 7 months

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I hit the jackpot - if I can store the stuff

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I'd be happy to store the 8/e for you, you could visit it any time you >were in California! Yeah, right... :-) Thanks for the offer... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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16 Exabytes storrage (was: 64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Build

by franke＠sbs.de

>> The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less >> than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than >> 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera >> per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this >> will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get >> enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). >> 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need >> 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary >> 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy >> not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within >> the next years, it is less than a warehouse. >> (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording >> to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal >> caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) > Not so... > We can have 1 Terabytes now. > Seagate just announced their new drives in 3.5" I think in 50GB. > Use 20 of them and still fit in 1 minicomputer box. Just anounced ... hmm ok, will be availabel next year. So lets see 1 Tera in a minicomputer box ? Lets take the size of my minitower beside my desk (latest series SIEMENS Pro M7) its 20x46x44cm or 40.480 cm^3 (I cut off some plastic parts and the sidedes to lower the size and we ignore the need of power cables) lets say 40.000 cm^3 that gives us 25 units per m^3 (1 m^3 = 1.000.000 cm^3) - still four times more tan in my last experiment. Remember I never said 1 Tera is out of reach the mainframe I'm working on has a bit more than just a Tera as disk storrage. It's just about how to get 16 Exas of address space filled with minimum size requirements. Ok, but we can continue to use the Barracuda 50 as a known base for calculation. It will be a full height 3 1/2" drive thats 42x102x147 mm^3 or 629,748 cm^3. since this drive still radiates some 20W of heat, we still need cooling, but as in my first example we just double the space to add high eficient cooling (and cables and montage space) so we get some 1260 cm^3 now again packing it to the m^3 gives us 793 units - lets say 800 for easy calculation which gives us exactly 50x800 = 40.000 Meg or 40 Tera. I think we have still two years or so to wait before geting our 100 Tera per m^3... And for the price, the Baracuda 50 is anounced at USD 2.100, so 800 drives are just USD 1.620.000. Well I think we could get som off from Segate, if we sell more of our Storrage Meters ((c) ClassicCmp) :))) > And can be run > off the 15A 115VAC or two plus the computer iteslf. :) Didn't I say anything about power requirements ? And please just show me one drive (from today!) that is just connected to 115V (or 230V). We need a 5/12V DC supply with about 20W per drive (~6W at 5V and 14W at 12V with 30W peak). So 800 drives are somewhat like 16 kW so lets get 20 kW and regarding this, we just cant use 115 V even 400 V 3L~ will be kind of stressed :). And at our 12V line we get a current up to 1800 A peak or 700 A idle wich leads us to a copper rail of some 20 cm^2 to get a load of less than 100A per cm^2 (for US imaginations thats 3x1" solid copper) for the main supply line. And a second one will be needed for 5V and ground. Maybe we take silver (real cheap right now) so we could halve the size :) Oh, and a power supply of this capacity would be almost the same size than our Storage Meter (c), so we have to half the capacity, or just don't tell te customers that we need dubble the proposed space just to fire it up. All calculations ar rough estimation based on actual 10 Gig drives. Real proportions are not used to simplify calcualtion. Servus hans P.S.: it feels good to think of copper in cm^2 instead of fine line wire... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

I've taken the position that I'm going to deliberately ignore the snipers. I usually bid on the first day listed. I ask myself, "What is the maximum I'm _really_ willing to pay for this?" and that's what I bid. I get outbid on the last day (I don't track it more closely than that) fairly often, but it means that the high bidder is paying more than I would, and I can't argue with that. As often as not, when I'm outbid, my disappointment is tinged with relief: "Did I really bid _that_ much? What was I thinking of?" On the whole, I find it liberating to just bid my maximum and let the chips fall where they may. Dav Vandenbroucke Economist U.S. Dept. HUD david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

>Anyway, this isn't hard. Its just a matter of moving all the action off >of eBay to somewhere more worthy. If everyone here (I know a lot of >you are still foolish enough to play eBay) would agree to an alternate >location that is perhaps built BY us, then we could lure away all the >other people who aren't on this list eventually and create the premier >vintage computer auction house on the web. Eventually, when this stuff >REALLY becomes valuable, we'll have a virtual stranglehold on the vintage >computer auction market. Wow. Perhaps its time to incorporate ClassicCmp. ;-) Kai just mentioned the owner of Haggle is a member of ClassicCmp (who?). And his creation of an "Antique Computer" section obviously shows he's interested. I'd also be willing to wager there isn't a larger, better organized group of computer collectors than on ClassicCmp. With some active endorsement from ClassicCmp members, and increased support for classic computers by Haggle, I think we'd be off to an excellent start. Tom -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies <H.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 18:05 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >I think this is just off topic (less than 10 years) but.... Hmmm, well, the date on the 2nd 6310 is 1989, so I guess it's a couple months early. >We have a 6530 with the same problem. I just ignore the errors and boot the >system anyway. The only drawback is that the system will not autorestart >from a power failure. Hmm, I wondered about that, I rather thought the o/s might not care, I'll have a look at that approach and see what happens. I don't have any TK70 cartridges at the moment anyway.... (Been having a ball getting ready to transfer all my VMS binary installs >from 1/2" R/R tape to 4mm dat on a Vaxstation in the cluster now that I have a working 1/2" R/R tape system.) The TA78/TU78 that came with the original cluster has a couple of U/S PSU's, so I couldn't even re-install the O/S. Fortunately, I haven't needed to. Come to think of it, I don't actually know how to do an install of VMS to a bare system. Hmm, I wonder where in the grey wall THAT's documented. >I believe the correct approach is what you outlined above. If necessary I >can dig out the appropriate manual. If you mean the Vax 6000 owners manual, I did already. It implies that it does so from the console error messages in Appendix B-9, although the SAVE and RESTORE EEPROM command sections don't actually SAY that it does. Quote from VAX 6000-400 Owners Manual Console 5-37: "Saved information includes: Systemwide console parmeters (baud rate, interleave, terminal characteristics) Saved boot specifications Diagnostic patches Console patches Boot primitives" End Quote I'll give it a go as soon as I get some TK70's. Thanks for that. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 04:43 PM 27-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Hmm, you'd know the answer to this, I'm sure. >Mission: >To make our existing 6310 into a 6320 by adding a cpu card from the other >machine. > >Problem: >The ROM is the same (4.1) but the s/n etc have to match for it to >be useable as a 2nd cpu. Will a save of the most recent of the cpu cards >EEPROM data >to the console TK70 and a restore to the other cpu duplicate the serial no? >Or is their some darker art required? I think this is just off topic (less than 10 years) but.... We have a 6530 with the same problem. I just ignore the errors and boot the system anyway. The only drawback is that the system will not autorestart >from a power failure. I believe the correct approach is what you outlined above. If necessary I can dig out the appropriate manual. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Huw Davies <H.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tuesday, 27 October 1998 15:38 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >At 06:53 PM 26-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >My spares cupboard is a good place to start :-) LOL. I should have known. >>BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? > >I think it's in another cupboard in my spares room. It's just behind four >or five 6000 series cabinets, three HSC70s and a few other bits..... Name your price for a DELQA or DELQA-YM and the 8530 console cable. I'd swap you something, but you probably have 3 of everything I have already....:^) Hmm, you'd know the answer to this, I'm sure. Situation: We bought a complete system as spares, a 6310 with DMB-32, KDB-50 & 64mb plus a KLESI-B & TU81+ and 3 x RA90's. Very cheap, from a scrapyard. (I'm currently negotiating for the card fit from a couple of 6440's that turned up at the same place) Mission: To make our existing 6310 into a 6320 by adding a cpu card from the other machine. Problem: The ROM is the same (4.1) but the s/n etc have to match for it to be useable as a 2nd cpu. Will a save of the most recent of the cpu cards EEPROM data to the console TK70 and a restore to the other cpu duplicate the serial no? Or is their some darker art required? TIA. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 06:53 PM 26-10-98 +1030, Geoff Roberts wrote: >Hi all, > >Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter >that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, >freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. My spares cupboard is a good place to start :-) >BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? I think it's in another cupboard in my spares room. It's just behind four or five 6000 series cabinets, three HSC70s and a few other bits..... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 7 months

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floppy drive storage

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

I have about 27 apple floppy drives as well as other floppy based machines and am wondering about their long term storage. is it better to close the drive's latch or leave it unlatched? i would think that having the drive latched/door closed would keep the drive from possibly getting misaligned if it got moved or bumped around but on the other hand, having the drive closed for long periods of time could possibly deform the head load pad. comments? david

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Sun, 25 Oct 1998, Chuck McManis <cmcmanis(a)freegate.com> wrote: ] I'll admit that I am confused about the subtext in Jim's message where he ] writes: ] ] At 10:02 PM 10/25/98 -0800, you wrote: ] >Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has ] >been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. ] > ... ] ] It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that ] eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now ] is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage ] sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this ] potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that ] a good thing? ] ... This is a good thing if you are collecting computers just so that you can sell them later at a profit. For those of us collecting to keep, it means higher expenses and/or fewer acquisitions. Of course, the unhappiness in my acquisitions department is eased by the knowledge that a few machines may be saved from the scrap heap by their sudden increase in value to the guy on the street. So the machines may be more expensive, but in the end there may be more of them available. Win some, lose some. ] --Chuck ] (Who is waiting for his Korg M1 synthesizer to become 'collectible' because ] he gave away an Arp Odessey when he was still clueless...) Bill.

27 years, 7 months

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Computer History

by rax＠warbaby.com

Hi Kiddos - I just finished writing the first draft of the Computer History chapter of the book I'm working on. I've put it up on my site at http://www.warbaby.com/FG_test/comp_history.html - If any of you have the time and are so inclined (it's about 12,000 words), I'd be grateful if you'd take a look at it and let me know if you spot any errors or obvious omissions. It's written for people who know little or nothing about computers, so don't be too harsh with its lack of technical stuff. OTOH, let me know if you think it's readable by the technologically challenged. I'll have the Internet History up by tomorrow, if you're a glutton for punishment. TIA, R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 7 months

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Beginning to post "Altair Scans" and PDP-11 docs

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I began posting my "Altair Scans" to: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/altair_scans.htm You can see from the overall list that there is a lot of info there. Also, I posted some PDP-11 stuff to: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ If anyone has any information to add to the list, let me know. I still have to take an inventory of my docs, but it's about several Xerox boxes worth. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I agree. I think sometimes, it's good to get a bit off-topic. Even WAY off topic (sometimes) isn't bad. Just as long as it's not spam, like on the OCH. A break from the ordinary is good. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman <bill_r(a)inetnebr.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 8:04 PM > > Boo hoo. Personally, I *enjoy* some "chatter" in the group, as long as > it's from people who are into classic computers and the like. As often > as not, I will read a message and think "Y'know - that's exactly what > happened to me/how I feel about that/where I'm at in life," and it feels > good. I hang out in the rec.crafts.metalworking newsgroup a lot, and > you'll never find a group lower in spam or more willing to help anyone > who wanders in, whether it's a question about how to best move a 3,000 > lb lathe or the best snow tires for a Volkswagen. It's like the old > guys who sat by the wood stove playing checkers in old-time hardware > stores, except there are about 500 of them. I've seen this group giving > each other some (occasionally much needed) "attaboys!" and general moral > support, and it's kind of neat. If I want cold, hard facts, I generally > look elsewhere, but if I want to read some personal anecdotes about > classic computers and the lives of those who collect them, I come here. > Relax, have a cup of coffee, and slow down a little. People with tunnel > who demand instant gratification are most of what's wrong with the world > today! >

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Oh yeah - I forgot about that one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 7:47 PM > > no, i think the one about firearms outdid the throwing up thread... > > In a message dated 10/26/98 7:35:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > roblwill(a)usaor.net writes: > > > Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although > > -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... > > --

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

no, i think the one about firearms outdid the throwing up thread... In a message dated 10/26/98 7:35:55 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill(a)usaor.net writes: > Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although > -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... > --

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

Sigh. I hate it. Sniped just seconds before the end. They should realy change their policy about ending time - these (automatic) snipers are realy not the way it should be. Waaaaaaaaah. Gruss H. sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Or the one about the drinking Hydrochloric acid and throwing up. Although -- that may have been a bit *too* far off-topic.... -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Max Eskin <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 6:33 PM > > > I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list > make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. > Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not > on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old > computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia.

27 years, 7 months

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Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by dburrows＠netpath.net

So I corrupted you? I have just learned to keep my eyes open for all University surplus stores. You just are lucky enough to have them sell over the counter. Down here everything has to go through the state sealed bid process. (except what you are willing to dumpster dive for) Not that I would ever do such a thing.:) ( I have made several thousand from such dives over the years) Also Tim be sure to check their dumpsters routinely. They are very bad about dumping good stuff. Dan > http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ > >They usually have a good assortment of workstations and PC's >in the showroom, and they often have some interesting >scientific and test equipment as well. (Thanks to Dan Burrows >for taking me to this place the first time!) >

27 years, 7 months

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BOFH

by roblwill＠usaor.net

O.K. After 5:00, it started working. must have just been a loaded server or something. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: BOFH > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml.

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I just want to say that the sort of people that assemble on this list make almost every discussion interesting _for me_, even if off-topic. Like the discussion we had way back about telephones. Sure, it's not on topic, but I think this list is more of a meeting place for old computer collectors than a natural-language-queryable encyclopedia. >> What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers > >Not a helluvabunch. I have to agree with you there... > >> What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers > >Lots. Many of the rare (and not so rare) machines are being valued out of >our hands. > >> What does a modern college education have to do with old computers > >OK, again, not much. > >> I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found >> that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot >> checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. > >That sounds about right. Horrible s/n on this list, but at least no porn. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Tim Shoppa seems to do pretty well based out of Bethesda (I have been >tempted >to get up early some Saturday morning and see if I couldn't shadow him >around >and discover his "sources" ;) ). I may be based in Bethesda, but haven't acquired an awful lot from the immediate area - most all the equipment that I use to make my living was acquired on the Left Coast. Of course, I've also been trying to cast off what I don't need, too! Do any of us truly have the problem of "not enough stuff"??? :-). One decent source in the area is the Terrapin Trader, the University of Maryland's surplus outlet in College Park. For more info, see http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ They usually have a good assortment of workstations and PC's in the showroom, and they often have some interesting scientific and test equipment as well. (Thanks to Dan Burrows for taking me to this place the first time!) There are some pretty decent "full-line" electronics shops in Beltsville, just a little bit further out than College Park. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

No, the most off-topic thread is 'why dogs lick their balls/Linux', which culminated in the venerable 'irreverence to irrelevance' flamewar to a couple of weeks later. >Some cheese is good hard, but not those that are supposed to be soft. > >Could this be leading to the most off-topic thread this list has ever >seen? > >> eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same >> amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. > >Not always, especially if there are a great deal of lots. I think Ebay is >half way between an open and sealed auction. > >William Donzelli >william(a)ans.net > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Sony SMC-70

by g＠kurico.com

Recently acquired a Sony SMC-70 (Z-80 based CP/M). At least I think that what it is (was on the bike so I couldn't bring it home today). It is just the unit itself, no docs and _no_ cables. So in general any info about this system would be great. Specifically, I need pinouts for the video (has both db25 B/W and color connectors). Or better yet the actual cable(s) themselves. TIA George P.S. I still have a decwriter III that anyone can have if you come pick it up.

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by Marty＠itgonline.com

_____________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: ebay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:54 PM On Mon, 26 Oct 1998, Hans Franke wrote: > > 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > > it may cost you. > > Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( As high as $12,000? Only to have someone bid $12,100? > > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. > > Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, > but sniping is just not possible. I stopped using eBay simply for this reason. The format makes it impossible to carry on a fair bid process and weed out the weenies. > > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > > computers. She suggests patience. > > Jep, but this lot was real neat. > (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). > I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled >>If you look hard enough, you can ALWAYS find something around you, >>cheaper, and it won't cost you shipping. This is of course more true >>for some people than others (like a poor slob in Alaska trying to >>collect computers) but I've learned this lesson many times. Everything >>I've ever bought off eBay has turned up locally for a fraction of the >>price. Sometimes only a week later. Aren't you located in 'Silicon Valley?' You are located in an unusally fertile area for the old computer devotee. I live in the Washington, D.C. metro area which isn't bad but must pale in comparison to your locale. *sniff* **sob** Marty An alternate to eBay is needed. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98] ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.155454.1767.72657; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:54:55 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA14085; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:52:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA19614 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:41 -0800 Received: from mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (mailhub2.ncal.verio.com [204.247.247.54]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA32 588 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 Received: from shell1.ncal.verio.com (dastar(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com [204.247.248.254]) by mailhub2.ncal.verio.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06918 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <Pine.GSO.3.96.981026124842.13135B-100000(a)shell1.ncal.verio.com> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:51:39 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: ebay In-Reply-To: <199810261856.TAA25057(a)marina.fth.sbs.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 7 months

2
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ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

> 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when > somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically > when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but > it may cost you. Jep, but to be shure, it has to be high, real high :( > 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) > who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised > some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually > too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, but sniping is just not possible. > 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially > computers. She suggests patience. Jep, but this lot was real neat. (And the next will be the one with the SC/MPs .. sigh). I don't know if this will be around again, so nicly bundled > 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. Sag but true. Ciao hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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AY 3500

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Anyone know anything about the famous AY-3500 chip, manufactured by >General Instruments, heart of a zillion Pong clones? What do you want to know? For pinouts and examples of use, you would find construction articles in then mid-late 70's issues of _Radio-Electronics_ and _Popular Electronics_ quite useful. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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Haggle Online (RE: ePay)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

> I'd > much rather this place be Haggle Online since that site has a specific > "Antique Computers" listing (http://www.haggle.com/cache/cat43.html). Since Haggle is actually owned by a member of this list, I wonder if we get to see all of the _really_ good stuff :) Kai

27 years, 7 months

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AY 3500

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>examples of this. The AY-3-8500 was developed in the Scottish labs of >General Instruments in 1975. Magnavox was somewhat involved in the It's not nearly the same as the AY-3-8500, but I just dug up my copy of _How To Design & Build Your Own Custom TV Games_ by David L Heiserman (1978). He describes systems based around TTL and linear IC's, some of them rather involved (over 100 SSI/MSI packages, in some cases!) Of course, there are no microprocessors involved... :-) Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every >> (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put >> the ending time on a random moment. >> I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the >> idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > Ooh, I like that second idea! > For a long time, I've been advocating the first idea (automatic extension), > but it does have some drawbacks: > - Still requires that e-mail to the person outbid be faster than > the time remaining in the auction (a big problem now). > - Potential for the "never-ending auction". > - Offerer requirements that an auction *must* end by a certain time. Jep. If not eBay, maybe another system will pick up the idea. This could maybe give em the right difference for competition. The whole computer bidding idea is to save nerves. > As you can tell, I've bee sniped too. This is the first time I realy likes a thing so much, that I had put up a real high bid - and every thing seamed to work out well :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I know that towards the end of the Model I production run most of my fri < interested in buying were totally avoiding the basic 4k units. They end < up with level II machines and never saw the unit before modification. I < would be kinduv interesting to know if these units were built as level I < machines or modified at the factory, or at the store. By late '79 the LII machines were the rule. Lower cost of rams and roms plus competitive drive. Also most were factory LII using the two chip LII roms or leftover three chip version. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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BOFH

by roblwill＠usaor.net

um... it dosen't work. ---------- > From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: BOFH > Date: Monday, October 26, 1998 11:23 AM > > For sysadmins and everyone with a perverted sense of humor, you might enjoy > this site. A friend of mine turned me onto it a year or so ago, and almost > always puts a smile on my face! The URL is > http://www.networkweek.com/bofh.shtml.

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Sigh. >> I hate it. >> Sniped just seconds before the end. >> They should realy change their policy about >> ending time - these (automatic) snipers are >> realy not the way it should be. > Hard cheese! ??? I like hard cheese - hmm but I cant get the idea :=) > Snipers, shills, and all of the other nasty things, some legally shakey, > have been around since auctions were invented. Ebay is no different. eBay is different - a real auctioneer always gives the same amount of additional time after teh last Bid - ePay just cuts. I could imagine two possible ways - first add 1 hour after every (successful) bid. Or, second just state the ending day and put the ending time on a random moment. I would prefere the last one, because it would reflect the idea of proxy bidding - bid once and let the eBay do its job. > At > least there is no annoying auctioneer (actually an American thing - the > European auctioneers do not talk at several hundered words per minute). Funny to listen. > I have been in the same situation quite a few times with Ebay, and now I > must just live with bidding ONCE, and if I am outbid, then I do not win. > None of this high-stress, keep-hitting-the-reload-button, waiting for me. Ja- especialy when the ending time is something like noon EST (6PM MEZ) - that's the heavyest trafic time across the pond. My line was so slow, I needed some 5 Minutes for reloading :( Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information >about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software >wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. To tell you the truth, I'm not sure it ever really served the purpose of "getting information". There have always been better ways of obtaining the information you're after. >99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. I'd estimate that of the technical questions asked here, 95% of them have easily found answers at a web site or a Usenet FAQ. Strangely enough, though, few folks responding ever list these sources of information, so the cycle of "ask question with well-known answer/receive 20 followups containing the information" continues. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? >>Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More >>BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", >>though. > Small world. One summer home from college, I loaned mine to the > kid brother of a girl I liked. A few weeks later I saw their > step-father who told me his wife had just left him and taken > the kids with her. Never saw any of them (the kid, the girl > or the book) again. Hard to loose a beloved one - and always about girls :) SCNR Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > I know that Track get very touchy at 900Mcyc speeds but, I also knew t I've done RF, at that very touchy part starts at around 50MHz, by 100-200MHz coils are simple lengths and at 470mhz anything longer than 1/4" becomes significant. I did a power amp at 512mhz and the whole tuning and interconnect was all carefully calculated lengths of tracks. Even the board material and thickness was critical! I was lucky with the RF I could use one whole side as a ground plane! Oh, and quarter wave lines at operating clock speeds is a real nasty. < It helps to have some idea of RF and microwave design before attempting < to build a 1GHz circuit. Otherwise you are wasting your time. This is no < something you can fiddle with until it works unless the underlying < design and layout is sound. Like Tony said, guessing will have you making whole new baords for small changes. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

> It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? It would seem that > eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now > is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage > sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this > potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that > a good thing? As a matter of nature, I don't care for the monetary value of my collection. What I care is to get new exciteing finds. > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if > you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years > than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be > collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then > there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and > sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for > over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as > the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually > higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they > are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make > them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and > that imponderable "desirability." Actual rarity ? Hmm so lets see - a PET is more rare than a KIM ? Or a Apple I five hundret times rarer than a NASCOM-I ? Come real prices beside the usual 1 to 100 USD are just rubbisch. Just follow Jim about his Intellec/Altair thing. For shure, the Intellec is a nice thing, but everybody just looks at the Altair. I have to stay on swap meets and garage sales - and maybe I find an Apple 1 :))) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>As long as there are people willing to shell out the bucks for the item >>they "demand" there will be someone else there to "supply." > Correct, in the USA the 'worth' of something is what some buyer somewhere > will pay for it, assuming you can notify said buyer that it is available > for sale. What's it worth to me to buy a poorly made bean bag animal? Not > even a dollar, but said animals sell at auction regularly for over $50 each. Short note - there's a quote in Germany: Jeden Tag steht ein Dummer auf, Du musst ihn nur finden. Literaly: Every day a dump person gets up, you just have to find him. > Hans made some comments on 'rare' versus 'desirable' too. The fact is that > 'desirable' often translates to those items that were perceived as being > significant in the history of the discipline in question. The Intellec > isn't percieved as being as historically significant as the Altair, hence > the price difference. The Apple 1 is seen as being the birth of a company > that is still significant today, VIC20's are seen less so. TRS-80's are > often seen as the first 'computer for the masses' (even though I would > argue the Apple ][ fit that role as well). Same with me. I realy would like ti get the Intellec, especialy see him running, but Jim has a price in mind, witch is (maybe cut by half) possible to get via eBay, but way out of my reach. The sad thing is that the buyer might only want parts for display, ("look what a nice old machine I have there in my hall" - "Oh, "what is is?" - "Just read, ts written there: Intellec" - "God help, how could they compute with only some lamps and switches?") and will eventualy take the whole configuration apart. > The education process will happen, and probably several people on this list > are in a position to write the books that appraisers and future shoppers > will live by. Consider the person who is born today, and will be in their > 30's in 2033. They get the urge to collect 'historical pre-millenium > computers.' and they will need help. They didn't "live the revolution" as > many of us have, so we have yet another chance to influence things in a > positive way. How could you just sound so positiv ? :) Gruss H. P.S.: I orderes a nice acrylic case this morning. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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eVay

by dogas＠leading.net

A broken IMSAI 8080 has shown up on eBay in case anyone is interested... Mike:-dogas@leading.net

27 years, 7 months

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Now quite OT: Re: ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

Aaron says: >>I personally *hate* the proxy bid idea. At least how it works on eBay....The whole fun of an incremental auction is the small jumps in bidding and that soul-searching question you have to ask yourself each time you're outbid: "Do I really want to go a buck higher on that [insert item here]?" << Ah, well, there you go. I don't see auctions as something fun, particularly. I see them as a way to buy things, either things that I can't easily get any other way (such as old computers), or at a price below what I'd pay if I bought it retail. The process isn't a form of recreation for me. I'd prefer that eBay was either sealed auction or restricted to one bid per person, with the high bid being set as now, at an increment over the second highest. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

>> "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >>> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >>> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >>> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >>> it). >> >> OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, >> some of those bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but >> they're coming from somewhere. > Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you > 100% in principle. > The way I look at it is this: [...] > I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's > just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. > Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 > months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being > used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate > above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - > in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, > possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will > probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in > March of 2050 ) Hmm I will have my 88th by then - jets join :) > - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology > will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! The size isn't the real problem - you already get 16 Gig in less than 320 cm^3 (using hard disk technology) which is more than 100 Meg per cm^3, which gives us 100x100x100x100 Meg or 100 Tera per m^3 (Only heat will be a problem, but if we assume that this will shrink by the factor 2 within the next few years, we get enough space for cooling without developing a new technology). 100 Tera are 100x2^40 Bytes so, for 16 exabytes you need 10x2^18 m^3 or 64x64x64x10 m^3 - just the size of a ordinary 160 store skyscraper. Nothing real big - isn't it? - and especialy not a mountain. and if we assume a increasing density by 10 within the next years, it is less than a warehouse. This is all just (near) todays technology - the real problem is the access time .... A wire could come up to 100m between a starage device at the perhipherieal area and a 64 Bit computer in the middle - 100m thats just 1/3.000.000s or 333ns traveling time ... seams we have created some kind of piplineing prior to the CPU :) So, calulating a 1 us round trip time, we just could runn a 4 MHz Z80 ... hmm didn't he ask for 64 Bit Z80 ? (I just left the disc acces time out of calculation, but acording to any information availabel from disk manufacturers the internal caches will eliminate this almost to zero :) Gruss Hans P.S.: for 128 Bit address range we just have to enhance the building by a bit more than 1.000.000 in each direction. Giving a size of 5x128.000.000x128.000.000x128.000.000 m^3 or 5x128.000x128.000x128.000 km^3 compared to volume of earth 20.000x 20.000x 20.000 km^3 (just my memory) And dont forget the traveling time of signals of something like .6 seconds across the cube. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by franke＠sbs.de

> Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 > seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before > the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). Hey, do you want to get a laughter on me ... grrr. :) > We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, > I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Not possible at high traffic times over here. Also, I don't need this kind of auctions - eBay would be a real nice idea without snipeing. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Heathkit Advanced weather station backlight problem?

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

Greetings all; I've got the Heathkit 'Advanced Weather Station' (it fits the charter: its old and has a Z-80 running it! B^} ) which (still) seems to have the classic problem of blowing fuses (and other things) once or twice a year as the fluorescent tube used for the LCD backlighting ages. There was a rumour that Heath had developed a mod for the power supply to deal with this, but this was also right around the time that Heath was bailing out of the kit business and closing their retail outlets so the staff at the time was much less than interested in trying to track down this information. I've finally got annoyed enough at this recurring ritual, that it is either time to find a fix, or off the thing in favour of a 'Davis' unit (or similar) Anyone out there have the information on this mod? (or can confirm that it never existed?) Thanks; -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

How to get what you want on e-bay 1. Bid more than anybody else through proxy bidding. This way when somebody else bids, the system will bid you up (to your max) automatically when someone else bids. If you want it bad enough, you can get it, but it may cost you. 2. Learn the fine art of sniping. I live with a longtime e-bay user (my wife) who has the distinction of a 0 second snipe - it came in and was recognised some fraction of a second before the auction closed. She did it manually too. :) There IS sniping software, apparently, too. 3. My wife assures me that EVERYTHING comes around again, btw. Especially computers. She suggests patience. 4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, the thing isn't yours. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by david_a._vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

I also play and collect board wargames, and for those a major trading center is rec.games.board.marketplace, although eBay is important too. In non-eBay auctions, it's common to use a going, going, gone format, with each step occuring after a couple of _days_ of no bids. That seems a much more reasonable way to make sure that everybody who wants to be heard from has the chance. I do like eBay's system of paying just over the second highest bid, as it lets you bid once and then wait until the end. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by dogas＠leading.net

I've seen a VOXBOX on eBay (already priced out of my range....alas) Anyone familiar with this equipment? Any anecdotes? -Mike dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 7 months

1
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ePay

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Aw, that guy on the single board computers was slow... he bid a whole 11 seconds before the end! Yesterday, I had somebody come in 6 seconds before the end (luckily he didn't outbid, but he cost me money, dammit). We have a saying here in America... "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". Now, I never enter a bid until the last possible moment. Kai -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke [mailto:franke@sbs.de] Sent: Monday, October 26, 1998 10:32 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: ePay Sigh. I hate it. Sniped just seconds before the end. They should realy change their policy about ending time - these (automatic) snipers are realy not the way it should be. Waaaaaaaaah. Gruss H. sorry to use the list, but I had to cry ... I was happy until 5 minutes ago ... -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

In the catagory of: "it must get worse before it gets better" Starting Saturday (perhaps earlier, but the first that I noticed) eBay has been running radio spots on the national syndicate program feeds. As if there are not already enough (far too many) people out there with excessive $$ to throw around... -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 7 months

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FW: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Semi-on-topic forward... -----Original Message----- From: John Hagle [mailto:jhagle@netsync.net] Sent: Friday, October 23, 1998 9:43 PM To: heathkit(a)qth.net Subject: [HeathKit] HERO Robots for sale Hi all. I have eight of the robots and an assortment of parts. Some manuals. In fact, at this point I am not sure of what I actually do have. If there is sufficient genuine interest in someone purchasing it all, I will inventory the collection and forward the info so we can negotiate a price that is mutually fair. Reason for sale is that I have insufficient time to do the needed work and programming etc. The joys and perils of being self employed, I guess. Date: 10/23/98 Time: 9:43:17 PM John R. Hagle N2JH ex - AA2GV and WA2SXH 6534 Klondyke Road Ripley, New York 14775 phone: (716) 736-2932 grid - FN02dg Western New York 6 meters thru 1296 --- Submissions heathkit(a)qth.net

27 years, 7 months

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EDSAC celebration?

by franke＠sbs.de

> P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more > sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a > tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. > Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than > their American counterparts. Thats not only about the Brits. When it's up for sales, the Americans are just numer 1 (maybe they had just absorbed to many magrebinian shopkeppers/merchants :) I heared a nice quote some time ago: When it comes for a new product, on should place development in Europe, production in Japan and sales in the US. Not so wrong at all Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

] From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> ] ] SO how long is it before some really enthusiastic hacker creates a 3D ] emulator using a graphics engine like that in DOOM, that allows you to pop ] ... And how long before the machine on which that emulator runs is no longer supported by its manufacturer, and starts breaking down? Well, I suppose by then, state-of-the-art systems will be able to emulate *that* thing faster than the original. Prediction: 100 years from now, pick any random business, and dig into their computer system. You will find that at least some of their software is "legacy code" running under an emulator for some long-forgotten machine. And if you dig further, you will find that at least one such emulator is itself being emulated. Don't be too surprised if the legacy app is IBM 360 code running under an emulator written for a Wintel x86 box, and the x86 box is being emulated by... maybe a Java (non-virtual) machine? Cheerful thought for the day: someday the Wintel x86 platform will be long-forgotten. :-) My $0.02, the original hardware pushes all of my motivation buttons harder than an emulator could. Nostalgia, Revenge, Education, Preservationism, Usability, Money; only usability *might* be completely satisfied by an emulator. Of course, the emulator pushes those buttons harder than a complete void would. In an odd way, an emulator could hit the Money button better than the original hardware: although it doesn't have higher resale value, it should be cheaper to obtain. But this was about which you'd rather have, not which you were more likely to succeed in getting, right? So maybe the real thing wins on the Money button as well. Hmm. It seems the emulator would push the motivation buttons for when NOT to collect, better than the real hardware would: Cost, Space, Noise, Breakdowns (for us software geeks, those are not exactly fun), Transportation, and Spousal discord; all the things associated with having physical STUFF. Bill.

27 years, 7 months

6
7
0 0

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> What the heck are you compiling that requires over 500M of RAM during the >> compilation step? Netscape? I can't even conceive of something that >>large. well we had a Java application that ran to 1.5 million lines of code (OK, the definition of a 'line of code' is somewhat flexible, but you get my point), and that would chew up somewhere around 500MB in order to build (this was about 16 months ago; my memory's hazy on the exact amount). luckily only about 30,000 lines of that were hand-written, we built a code generator to do the rest :) cheers Jules

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new version for $50. Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it <g> -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM > > On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: > > > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was > > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get > > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >

27 years, 7 months

3
2
0 0

TRS-80 Model I

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative > keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has > ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something > like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. > Anyone know? I never saw a special keyboard for Irma. The IBM 3270-PC had a special cable with 3 connectors. One for the 3270 card, one for the keyboard port on the motherboard and one for the keyboard itself. The 3270 card trapped most of the extra keys. ISTR that Autocad had extra keypads and things that you could get for use alongside the PC keyboard, but I have no idea how they worked. Extra port I imagine. Philip.

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of >> performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not >> contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >> it). > > OK, then the Z80 system will require 19 bits of address. Sure, some of those > bits aren't coming directly out of the CPU, but they're coming from > somewhere. Actually the figure is 29 bits (it was 512M not 512K) but I agree with you 100% in principle. The way I look at it is this: Memory sizes are growing exponentially. So address bus widths can be expected to grow linearly. It has taken roughly 30 years between 64K words or bytes getting tight (early '70s, DEC up the Unibus from 16 bit addressing to 18 bit, but there's probably an example >from the late '60s) and now, when the 4 GWord or GByte address space of 32 bit addressing looks like it might get tight. (Note this is on small computers. On large computers, I'd estimate 10 years earlier in each case.) I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. I claim that the assertion that we'll see even 64-bit address spaces being used anything like up by 2003 is unfounded. According to that growth rate above, we will start hitting the limit of 48-bit addressing - 256 TWord - in the '20s, and the limit of 64-bit addressing, 16 exawords (or exabytes, possibly), in the '50s (or '40s at 1 bit per 18 months). Many of us will probably still be alive then (I shall be celebrating my 83rd birthday in March of 2050) - and I for one would like to see what sort of technology will be used to store 16 exabytes in a space smaller than a mountain! Philip.

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Analog computer manuals available

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Someone a while back mention that Heath's manual replacement service no longer carries manuals for the EC-1 computer. On a lark I decided to check if they carry manuals for Heath's original analog computer, the ES-400, introduced in 1956. They do! Here's a picture to refresh your memory. http://www.sou.edu/biology/analog.html#EAC If you went to VCF 2 and joined the tour of the Computer History Center's visual storage, you would have been able to touch one. I got these model numbers out of the 1959 catalog. So here are the model numbers and prices of the manuals that I know that Heathkit has: $35 ES-400 Cabinet and Front Panel $25 ES-201 DC Amplifier (the op-amps on top of the cabinet) $25 ES-100 Initial Condition Power Supply $25 ES-2 Amplifier Power Supply $20 ES-50 Reference Power Supply $20 ES-151 Relay Power Supply I received the last three, a week ago, and was extremely surprised to find that they had sent me original manuals and not copies. They told me that it was not a mistake, they had extra manuals. These 3 1960 manuals look just like new. I'm still searching for the Operations Manual for this computer. ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 7 months

4
3
0 0

Acron (was:Re: Educational subsidies)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't >> afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people >> were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current >> situation. > I thought that Acorn dominated the UK school system? Perhaps I heard > wrong. And speaking of Acorn - If I'm right informed they have just descided to stop building RISC-PCs - end of one more independant line of computers. I belive the last with roots in the 80s, and the last beside Apple. Or is there any other non Win/Intel/IBM manufacturer (beside Apple) for the consumer/non niche market manufacturer left ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

eVay

by franke＠sbs.de

>> There's also an Altair case (supposed to be like new) starting at $100 on there > I have been curious about what the January 1975 issue of Popular Electronics > would bring on ebay, and now we can all find out. Current price is $40.61 > and it will close at 21:20 PDT. The URL for anyone interested is > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37472905. I would > think that the Jan and Feb issues would be a bit more desireable, or for > that matter, all of the 1975, 1976, 1977, and maybe later volumes. Geeeee - I should sell any of my old issues on eVay - and some I even have tripple. Gruss H. (future millionaire) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Microvaxen bits etc.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter >that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, >freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. For your ref. the delqa is a M7516 and add -YM for the "turbo" version. I just checked the DDA for any listed in Australia and none are listed. If you want I will go through the subscriber list and find some for you. >While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, >(around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good >sources? >S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. I know it doesn't help much for shipping concerns but Datacom Warehouse carries them for about $25 either 10base2 or 10baset. www.warehouse.com >BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? >(With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) Which console cable are you looking for? I may have one. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

bit addressing, alignment, bus errors, and VM (was Re: PDP-10 arch question)

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Incidentally, a quick quiz. Assuming all the virtual address space was > physical memory and you wanted to make a copy onto a disk drive > (32 Trillion Bytes - we didn't even have GigaBytes back in 1972, let alone > TeraBytes), how long would a sustained WRITE at 1 MByte/second take? > Hint: Answer should be in ONE digit of precision along with a time interval. > Eager beavers who want to give us 8 significant figures of precision > are disqualified. Just over 1 year Just under 400 days Quite a bit under 60 weeks Just under 13 months ... oops, that was 2 sig. figs. Rather more than 10 months then. If you want even sillier units, and at the risk of reviving an off-topic debate, rather more than 30 megaseconds. Could these disks do a megabyte per second in 1972? Sounds rather fast to me... Philip.

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

11/70 front panel

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. >Yes. It's the RDC console. I forgot the term. They both still have >their modems in the racks (but the yahoos from maintenance cut the lines >going in :-P ) Technically, the modem and the certain bits of the RDC could never be owned by the customer; these were always the property of Digital and the customer was forced to lease (well, the number was rolled into the field service contract.) When the field service contract ended, Digital was supposed to come remove these bits and reinstall the "real" front panel, but often neglected to do so. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 26 October 1998 20:07 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >When last I looked - and this was 1993 or so - you could still buy the ethernet >interfaces for uVAX IIs from used system dealers. Dealers in things Digital are scarce around here. That's part of the problem. > Whatever you do, don't get stuck with a deqna board. Nothing after VMS 5.3 supports them. Ah. Ok, thanks for that. >You want a delqa or delqa YM board. The YM is the high performance version of >the delqa. In 1993 they cost about 300 bucks(US) a whack Ok, I'll try for one of those. Thank you. >They're probably more or less worthless now. *sigh* :) A$400 a tonne. At selected "Hi-Tech" scrap yards. FWIW, I got the MVII, plus 2 VS4000's, (a 90 & a 60), a swag of RZ55's, couple TK50's, couple VT220 & 320 terms a DS3100, a VS3100/M38, 2 Data General 88000 based Aviions running DGUX 5.4 V3.10 (Sys 5 R4 + bits of BSD) and 2 Interpro 19" Colour RGBHV monitors for $160. Plus sundry keyboards etc. The MVII and a couple of the VS still have VMS 5.4 or 5.5 on them. (A small cluster is in the works :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

Hi all, Any Aussies out there know a good place to look for an ethernet adapter that will fit a Microvax II? I have a nice machine, complete with VMS 5.4, freshly rescued from a scrap metal yard, but it has no network adapter. While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, (around here anyway) since I have a Vax 6220 in need as well, any good sources? S/H preferred. I'd like 2 or 3 if possible. BTW, Huw, did you ever come across a source for a Vax 8530-Console cable? (With that subject line, I just know you'll read this!) You mentioned some time back that you might know where one was. The Pro380 console for it now has a new hard disk, with the console software successfully installed, it just needs a cable to make the poor old beast functional. (Backplane permitting) I see what you mean about the backplane too. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

2
1
0 0

Emulation or the real thing?

by H.Davies＠latrobe.edu.au

At 12:14 PM 21-10-98 -0700, Sam Ismail wrote: >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, John Foust wrote: > >> This reminds me of a claim I hear in Y2K discussions, but can hardly >> believe: that businesses are running the same *executables* since >> the 1950s/60s/70s, and that they don't have the source code to fix it. Well, here is an edited directory listing from our main VMS cluster: MPCASM.DOC;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:05.00 MPCASM.EXE;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:06.00 TEKLIB.OLB;1 24-NOV-1980 16:33:14.66 Now the hardware is considerably newer than the files, but I can guarantee that I don't have the sources for these. (MPCASM is an assembler for a 6800 and TEKLIB is a library for Tektronix 4010 terminals...). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies(a)latrobe.edu.au Information Technology Services | Phone: +61 3 9479 1550 Fax: +61 3 9479 1999 La Trobe University | "If God had wanted soccer played in the Melbourne Australia 3083 | air, the sky would be painted green"

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

discrete transistors

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< As far as I know, no x86 or 68xxx processor has ever had any degree of < fault tolerance withing the chip, where it is needed. Getting it externa Big time problem. Fault detection and instruction resequencing arent there. That makes even a simple parity error in ram unmanageable. < Most mainframes, even ones from the 1960s, have error checking throughou < the entire system - even in the paths between the registers and ALU. If I was told a story about an old 700 series where the cooling water for the rooms chiller found a leak. The leak was in the hundreds of gallons a minute rate. Oh, the 700 series is a vacuum tube machine so the under floor cable troughs have data and power cables galore. Seems the machine was still running fine when water started gushing out the bottom pannels of the racks. All the interconnection cables and PS units were soaked and it still ran! They shut down, fixed the pipe and dried the room and fired everything back up no problem. It was a general presumption that the machines due to the large number of parts would be unreliable. The designs were robust to say the least and in practice they were reliable, often far better than predicted. < something goes wrong, like a gate goes into a "stuck at" condition, the < redundant circuits and error correctors will jump into action and < processing will not stop. Most machines will call home and have Fault tolerence is an art in itself. Allison

27 years, 7 months

2
1
0 0

11/70 front panel

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 09:15:43 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ethan Dicks <erd(a)infinet.com> > To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Subject: PDP-11/70 rescued! > Message-ID: <199810231315.JAA24826(a)user2.infinet.com> > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > The Computer Quonset Hut has its first aquisition - a pair of PDP-11/70's > with peripherals. Lucky guy. > My biggest disappointment is that the CPUs have the corporate front panel, > not the programmer's front panel. Anyone have a spare front panel they > want to trade? ;-) Actually the panel is better in some ways (except looks) than the 11/70 front panel. I do prefer the DECdatasystem 570 (I think) 11/70 blue corporate cabinet front panel for style. (The 11/74 used almost the same front panel -- YES I did work with an 11/74 in DEC Princeton... They did exist... The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced to a 300 or 1200/300 baud DEC or Racal Vadic modem (in auto answer mode) when the key is in remote. Colorado would run a diagnostic chain, examine the bus, read error logs etc. > > -ethan > > P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit > ECC memory boards. Is this true? I know that 750's had 256K and 1Mb > boards (and eventually 4Mb boards), but every jump up required a new > memory controller (and backplane wires ;-) What's the scoop on the 11/70? They do use the same ones... I don't think the 11/70 supported more than the 256k MS-11K boards, though. Bill ex-DEC Field Service...

27 years, 7 months

4
3
0 0

Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

If anyone else wants to bid on the list please get them to by 9:00 in the morning (EST). I will respond with a copy of what I have to submit with everyone's name on their group of items. Please check your section and part # to be sure they are correct. To keep peace with the family I can't respond anymore tonight. Thanks Dan

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

TRS-80 Model I

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

>Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 23:33:33 +0000 (GMT) >Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu >From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model I > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

TRS-80 Model I

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Speaking of A-F keys, does anyone here use any of the alternative keyboards available for PC XTs and ATs? I'm curious if anyone has ever seen the IrmaKey/3270 (IIRC) keyboards. They must have something like 130 keys, but I have no idea how to program the macro keys. Anyone know? > >> When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >> didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have > >And I didn't like it because it didn't have A-F on it. Once a machine >code programmer, always a machine code programmer and all that :-) > >That's why I never bought the keypad for my original Model 1. > >-tony > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

TRS-80 emulators

by fauradon＠pclink.com

There are some distributions that are sold for $50 but they usually include book and phone support plus some sort of installation program Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon -----Original Message----- From: Jason Willgruber <roblwill(a)usaor.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:11 PM Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >I found that out. I was talking to the comp.tech guy at my school last >week about getting a copy. He told me he'd be able to get me the new >version for $50. > >Shows just how full of bull @#$% he is. > >Although he's the same guy that gave me a Tandy 1000TL because the "hard >drive was shot". The power cable wasn't connected to it <g> >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318 > >---------- >> From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers ><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators >> Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 9:14 PM >> >> On Thu, 22 Oct 1998, Jason Willgruber wrote: >> >> > Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> > going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to >get >> > it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the >file >> >> Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under >junior? >> >> LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! >> >> Sellam Alternate e-mail: >dastar(a)siconic.com >> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- - >--- >> Ever onward. >> >> Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 >> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! >> [Last web site update: 09/21/98] >> >

27 years, 7 months

4
4
0 0

TRS-80 Model I

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Anyone know how many of the TRS-80 model I computers were made without t < numeric keypad? I remember a discussion a year or so ago where someone < the UK was looking specifically for one without the keypad. In checkin < through my collection, I only found one without the keypad, and am just < curious. Quite a few, I'd speculate over 50,000 for sure. The keypad was an option that was very frequently added though so many originals were keypadded, LII'd and 16k'd. It's rare to see a stock TRS80 that hasn't had factory and customer mods. Other common mods to the base console: * Lovercase chars, (add a 2102 and a jumper, etch cut). +++started as customer mod, then DEPOT repair mod.+++ * ^(CTRL) key so ^C and other characters could be done. ===Customer mod. * Cassette load mod, small board with 4040 counter and a gate to prevent cload hang under LII. +++Depot repair, factory LII mod+++ * CPU clock speed up (bump the clock from 1.7mhz to 3.4mhz). ===customer mod. Some companies also sold some of these mods as kits. Allison

27 years, 7 months

3
3
0 0

DEC VAX 6220

by mbg＠world.std.com

Folks - apparently this unit (may or may not have disks - the person who posted about it is unsure) may be trashed if not spoken for by monday... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

wanted: sheet feeder for HP ScanJet 3c

by eric＠brouhaha.com

OK, so it's not ten years old and therefore it isn't a classic. But I use my ScanJet 3C to scan documents *about* classic computers, and make them available on the web. For instance, the PDP-10 documentation at http://www.36bit.org/ So if anyone has an ADF (sheet feeder) that they're willing to sell, please let me know. The one HP intended for it was the C2525A, but I think the C2525B (for ScanJet 4C) and C6265A (for ScanJet 6100C) will work as well. Also, the C1751A (for the ScanJet IIc & IIcx) might work. Thanks! Eric

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

TRS-80 Model I

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> Gradually I learned to use the pesky number keys at the top of the keyboard > and ignored the numeric pad completely. Even today I ignore the numeric pads > because they don't have comma keys on them. What happens when you come across the One True Keyboard (VT100) or its descendants, which do have a comma on the keyboard like god intended? There's even a DEC keyboard - the LK250 - which has a comma on the keypad and works on PC-clones. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

DEC VAX 6220

by dhansen＠zebra.net

I'm wondering if anyone wants a DEC Vax 6220 (model number 62AMB-YE). It's approximately 5' x 3' x 3' and is located in the Mobile, Alabama area. Please reply quickly. david

27 years, 7 months

1
0
0 0

Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi All: I have an M8047-AA 2 port SLU/boot rom card. It's a dual-height Q bus card. I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. The headers look like: o o o o o o o X o o The "o"s are pins, the "X" is the missing pin. This is for an 11/23, the card is configured with what appears to be a boot ROM, I'm assuming that one of the serial ports comes up as the console. Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 7 months

2
1
0 0

FUBARs and microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>>Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) >Hey, that's cheating :-) >The story I heard about uFortnights was a bit of an "in joke" within VMS >development. There was obviously a concerted effort to make VMS >documentation as dry as IBM stuff is perceived, so the developers put up >this new unit to see how far up the chain of cleansing it would go before >being "expunged". I hear that there was some surprise and embarrassment >when it escaped to customers. If that's the case, I wonder how "?SYS-F-FUBAR - Failed Unibus Address Register" snuck in, too :-) Tim.

27 years, 7 months

2
1
0 0

HP Paintjet

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I'm not sure if the HP Paintjet is >10yo. If not,feel free to ignore. Is it possible to upload fonts to the Paintjet? Or redefine its character set in any way? Does anyone have the escape codes for it? I looked on www.hp.com, but it is Lynx-unfriendly. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Scanning (was: TurboDos)

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Thank you very much for the scanning info, Eric. If I can get my clients out of here reasonably early enough Sunday(tomorrow), I will give things a try along the lines you've suggested... seems I have most of the tools lying around here somewhere. My offer, though, re: the doc that spawned this thread, still holds. If you want this TurboDos info, it is yours for the price of UPS or FedEx from Los Angeles. Thanx again! PS: Thanx Ward G. I had quite forgotten about the F/F/F system of mensuration. And it is no less ridiculous than the one we (in 'Merka) use that is derived from human anatomy and plant biology. Cheers John

27 years, 7 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. I saw this earlier and I severely disagree. Two systems I knew of in the Mill (PRINCE::) and Westford (GRAF::) locations were both 11/70 with programmers front pannels. The latter system, GRAF:: was one I'd reboot if the sysmangler wasn't around so it's familiar to me. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

OOPS This was of course not meant to the list Francois

27 years, 7 months

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PDP Doc files posted today

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: I finally got Acrobat Exchange and my scanner to talk to eachother, so I started scanning my PDP docs. I posted to http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/pdp11/ copies of the following: * IAS/RSX-11 Fortran IV Installation Guide approx size 2mb * RK05J Engineering drawings approx size 2.7mb I also have the RK05 service manual scanned and broken into four, 25-page chunks totaling about 7.5mb. Let me know what you think about the file sizes. I'm torn between files for each chapter and a single file so long as it isn't much bigger than 2mb. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 7 months

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11/70 Front Panel

by pechter＠shell.monmouth.com

> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:33:48 +0100 (BST) > From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Subject: Re: 11/70 front panel > Message-ID: <m0zX7ZY-000IyNC@p850ug1> > Content-Type: text > > > The "programmer's" front panel doesn't exist for the PDP11/70. > > I would guess he's refering to the original 11/70 front panel. It looks > just like an 11/45 panel, except that it has 22 address indicators and 22 > switches. > > > What you probably have is the 11/70 Remote Diagnostic Console > > which allowed DEC to remotely diagnose the 11/70 (even when hung > > in a microcode loop or power fail routine) from Colorado. > > > > The front panel hooks to a microprocessor controlled card which interfaced > > The original 11/70 panel connects directly into the CPU logic AFAIK. I don't > think there's a microprocessor in there. I don't believe so... I do think the Remote Diag Console used a microprocessor (Looked kind of like a modified DMC/KMC-11 to allow it to grab Unibus state snapshots and stuff like that from a machine which was completely hung. I only wished they kept working front panel switches and lights with the RDC. > > -tony > You could do a lot of good diagnostic stuff remotely with just the RDC and a console DL11 hooked to a modem... The board was supposed to be DEC proprietary and removed from the machine (like the 11/750 RDC board) when it went off service contact. In the late 80's DEC started getting a bit lax on removing them. If I find the pocket guide for it -- I'll post the commands. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter(a)shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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Microfortnights

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>And of course there's a VMS sysgen parameter whose unit of measurement is >the micro-fortnight. Any VMS systems types out there remember what the >parameter is, and how long a micro-fortnight is :-) Why do you have to remember when you have VMS HELP available? :-) (TIMAXP)$: MCR SYSGEN SYSGEN> SHOW PARAM *TIME* Parameter Name Current Default Min. Max. Unit Dynamic -------------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ---- ------- TIMEPROMPTWAIT 65535 -1 0 -1 uFortnight SYSGEN> HELP PARAM TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT TIMEPROMPTWAIT defines the number of seconds that you want a VAX processor to wait for the time and date to be entered when a system boot occurs, if the processor's time-of-year clock does not contain a valid time. (The time unit of micro-fortnights is approximated as seconds in the implementation.) If the time specified by TIMEPROMPTWAIT elapses, the system continues the boot operation, and the date and time are set to the last recorded time that the system booted. For a VAX-11/730 processor, which does not have a battery backup clock, the system time must be supplied following a power failure. [...] -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 7 months

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TurboDOS

by eric＠brouhaha.com

Does anyone know whether TurboDOS (an improved CP/M clone) is still available? A web search only turned up an entirely different TurboDOS for Atari computers. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> As for a 64Bit data bus, there is no reason for a 64bit instruction but, > but with 64bits of data, you can do a hell-of-alot with video and signal > synthesis (i.e. sound). If you want to wrangle 64 Bit data you need to have acording operations - Wasn't it your intention to create a 64 Bit uP ? So, without a 64 Bit ALU and instructions to handle 64 Bit this Z80 will still be an 16 Bit uP just with an 64 Bit data bus. And for the Speed thing: it would be way better if the data bus is extended to 128 Bit, to reduce Memory access. With a 64 Bit bus in a 32 Bit CPU the theoretical bus load is just half. Or simpler: the CPU can be twice as fast with the same memory. > >And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in > >case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of > >mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... > >oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide as > your data bus. Just tell me why ? Because it has been the tame with old 8 Bit uPs ? Come on thats just the stupid 'thats the way it always has been' idea. Address bus shuld be a) as wide as needed and b) if possible not exeeding the Size of the basic data unit. For a) just tell me where you need more than 4 Gig, or better where you need _way_ more than 4 Gig, because just 4 or 10 times this address space is easyer done with paging methods (wait for b)). And for b) you need special logic to perform address calculation, you can't hold one address in one regular register, you need more silicon to implement the adressing logic, adress calculation and (hidden) adressing register - you also need an additional ALU. > If you keep thinking like "you'll need $16,000,000,000.00 > in memory for that address size" you'll do the same stupid thing as: If you don't need it don't spent the silicon. > Micro$oft ("640K is more than enough for anyone"), Be carefull, now you're entering historical teretorry. MS-DOs was designed to use the full 1 Meg address space of the 8086/88. And could could well boot with something like 900 and more K user mem available. The 'Barrier' (640 or what ever) was given to DOS by the BIOS of the respective machine. And the PC-Bios had just to obey the CGA memory. > old programmers ("year 2000 is 20 years away. > This stuff will be obsolete by then"), You are just talking to one of them - and FYI we continue to use systems with two digit years and they are Y2K ready :) > and let us not forget Intel with their screwy memory addressing > schemes on their pre-X386s. Again, please think a bit - the x86 segmentation is a real great atempt to give - give more than 64 K Mem to a 16 Bit uP - allow an easy relocatable memory sceme - give a reliable memory base to a multi user/multi tasking OS I never had a problem with that - in fact I was realy happy about it (its just a kind of 16:16 base/offset addressing - remember /390 machines still have only one adressing base+offset - a proof for my belive, that base/offset is the only adressing mode needet anywhere). All the ranting about x86 are senseless and I often found (after taking out all the me-to-dont-like-it people) that these are the same guys who cant go well with 9 Bit machines or can't work with 7 Bit lines. > Think ahead! It wouldn't cost that much more or requrie much > more effort to add a few bits to the address bus. Just remember b) you NEED more effort, especialy things that don't fit into your standard modell. Just think, why was the Z80 so much better than the 8080 ? The 8080 implemented 16 Bit calculations, as needed for adress manipulation only as a kind of 'add-on', while the Z80 was more like a 16 Bit CPU. And here is also your additional effort visible - to give the flexibility to handle a address you need to implement 128 Bit things and operation - or you end up with a methods like the 64180 MMU or the x86 segmentation Or worse things like the page registers on the 65816 (I love the CPU, but I still think they should have used a x86 like sceme). And if your thinking about MMUs to expand a 64 Bit adress to 128, you just cut the adressrage down to 64 Bit, since external address enhancements are no design detail of a CPU. > Wow, I didn't intend for that to sound as sarcastic... No offence intended > Hans. Not taken - I still hope you will see it :) > As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thought > about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist. Please ? An Alpha board with CPU is only a bit more expensive than a PC board with an equal Pentium. At least thats the street price over here in Munich - we have some PC part shops that are also selling Alpha boards and CPUs right aut of the blister. > Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA/GAL designs (and languages) some of them I think are already below the 3ns range. AFAIK you could aquire the Z80 design already as a FPGA description - add whatever you need and dump it into the FPGA. With 3nS you are able to get a 33 MHz Z80 right out of the box. Just don't forgett, a ready to use Z180 is 25% faster :) If you still want do try, you should realy dig into FPGA stuff (thanks Allison for the idea) here you get a nice sandbox to try your designs. And most of the evaluation kits are like for free. One more thing, when you want to design a 64 Bit CPU you will get something like 200 pins, so just forgett about any kind of DIL. > Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? Faster 180s and of course the 380s. But Zilog has to build things that will sell, so they are more into integrating special I/O devices than more CPU power. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Please disreagrd this message! I'm really sleepy....I missed the fact that a 128-bit processor would access over 4 billion times the amount a 32 bit one would. I forgot all about the 64-bit ones. In this case, I would agree, and go as far as to say that humanity will _never access 300 tredecillion bytes, since to do so would require us to dissassemble several planets. This had been discussed when I wasn't paying attention... >contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access >it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, >most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the >amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI >and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, >volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are >tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM >a 128-bit processor can access? >>I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. >I'm >>willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications >requiring >>processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? >> >>> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this >list. >> >>We'll see. >> >>This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: >> >> You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. >> You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. >> >>And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >>time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >>more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >>of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do >mean >>LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image >processing. >> >>Eric >> > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< It's a right pain to do complex digital circuitry like this. Great for < RF amplifiers, etc, but not so easy to run data buses across the board. < Although you _can_ make striplines using strips of copperclad stuck down < to the groundplane if you have to. for bussed logic is can work. The trick I used was 2sided clad board with one side sliced to produce 8 narrow strips as a bus with it's own groundplane. It was elevated over the chips with some screws (also passed the ground) and then wires picked off the needed signals. this approach was used to hook a 8049 MCU to a DDS (digital synth) that was used to drive a PLL. The core of a DDS is a (this case) 24bit parallel adder and 24 bit accumulator plus a 24bit constant register. A lot of parallel bussed signals. It was all clocked at 16.777216(2^24)mhz. A ram card would be harder but I've done one (dram!) that was fairly small (1Mx8 using 256kx1 dips) and one off. busing is a pain only in that it's a lot of repetitive wiring. But being visible it was easy to see signal progression. The results worked well and lacked the ringing that sometimes plagues boards of two sided design. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Why do some of us collect old computers ?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Why do some of us want to collect these old computers. ?? As an engineer I like to study old computers as there were often some good ideas or neat tricks encapsulated in them. To have machines off the track I followed (intel/z80 or DEC). This leads me to to aquire Kim-1s, Trackstar128s and the like. To have and use machines I didn't own but worked with. Like PDP-8s, Vaxen SDK85s, sdk88s and others. To extend, modify or otherwise use the systems I did aquire over they years. I may be unique as many of the oldest machines I have are orginal purchases. I have and use machines I could not afford in their time. Systems like the Compupro, Visual 1050, PS2/50z are examples of this. All of my systems are operational, many are used daily or weekly. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Ah! I misunderstood. That's a cool idea. There is an open source >> version of Civilization floating around. Perhaps that could be >> adapted, not that we couldn't steal a start from somewhere else... >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper >> wire. >> How much copper do you want smelt this year? Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! > I don't know about that -- it would make the game rather difficult. > Rats have eaten 320 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell stock? > Or maybe that should be: > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > Do you want to buy or sell source code? Pfffft. Go ahead. thats great! Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Week End Finds

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi Mike, Did you receive your PC-1500 yet? Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ -----Original Message----- From: Mike <dogas(a)leading.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Week End Finds >>Does any one have docs on the pc-1500? Any info would be appreciated. A web >>search didn't bring anything more than the specs, I would like to find >>programming info if that is possible. >>Thanks >>Francois > > >Hi Francois, > >I just ordered one of these machines ( inbound mail ) send me some mail to >dogas(a)leading.net I should have it by week end... >- Mike >

27 years, 7 months

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Educational subsidies

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Slashdot.org has a story explaining that the UK school system can't afford NT 5 and are considering another OS. In light of this, people were bringing up Apple's success in schools in contrast to the current situation. However, I have heard that the only reason why Apples were common in schools was that the gov't bore some of the price tag to encourage use of Apples, and Apple didn't pay as much attention to education as is generally thought. Is this true? What were the particulars of Apple educational licensing? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

5
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Odd Meas. Units

by mbg＠world.std.com

>> I used to know the speed of light in Furlongs per Fortnight. > >The attoparsec/microfortnight is remarkably close to the inch/second. >Quite useful for quoting tape speeds :-) IIRC, the GT40 lunar lander program had comments about measuring things in furlongs per fortnight. I'll have to check the source... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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Fairchild Channel F

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi, I finally got around to going to the thrift store and picked up that Channel F. It cost me $10 and has Carts number 12 Baseball and 16 Dodge it. Whoever wanted it please respond to fauradon(a)pclink.com Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 7 months

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Anyone Have Pinout for M8047-AA SLU Ports???

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I am looking for the pinout of the 2 serial ports. They are 10 pin IDC >headers, with one pin removed to ensure correct polarity. >The headers look like: > > o o o o o > o o X o o

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I guess I don't have $1000 to bet, but I wouldn't be quite that sure. No application _requires_ any number of bits > 1. It's a question of performance. After all, a Z80 could have 512M RAM, just not contiguously (and would probably require a lot of hardware to access it). There are plenty of tasks that can use up much more than 4GB ram, most notably databases and various graphics. 1GB is currently the amount of RAM a high-end server can be expected to have, and in CGI and engineering applications, even this isn't enough. To sum up, volume always fills capacity, as the highway engineers that are tearing up boston haven't learned yet. But, what's the amount of RAM a 128-bit processor can access? >I beg to differ, and I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm >willing to bet $1000 that there will be no practical applications requiring >processors with 128-bit addressing by October 24, 2003. Any takers? > >> Yep. Short-sightedness (and history) is seemingly repeating on this list. > >We'll see. > >This is not the same shortsightedness as the old series of claims: > > You'll never need more than 1K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 32K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 128K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 512K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 640K of RAM. > You'll never need more than 1M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 4M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 16M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 64M of RAM. > You'll never need more than 256M of RAM. > >And yes, I've heard every single one of these statements made at one >time or another. I haven't yet heard anyone claim that I'll never need >more than 512M of RAM. My current Linux workstation has 384M of RAM, >of which I routinely use more than 300M for large compiles (and I do mean >LARGE compiles, some require over 500M virtual) and for image processing. > >Eric > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I was just pointing out that it's _possible_ to make high-speed stuff at < home given a lot of care and a bit of knowledge. The myth that it's < impossible to homebrew at above 10MHz is just that - a myth. It's not < easy, but it's possible. Having also done it I know that it's not for the faint of heart. You have to have an idea about fast pulses and RF in real life circuits to know what works and what may not. FYI: My favorite breadboard technique is dead bug. Take a sheet of copper clad and call that ground, mount devices inverted (legs up!) and bend any pins that are gound to ground. Small cap from Vcc to the ground plane and start wiring. Critical lead lengths can be very short. I've used this trick for over 20 years and into the GHz region successfully. Looks ugly but it goes together fast and works better than a PC layout! It's also non fussy in that it applies well to RF as digital circuits. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Items sold

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The H89 system I advertised in here a while back has been sold. A fellow out of Jacksonville, FL was the lucky buyer (and you don't want to know what the shipping cost!) The DECMate III floppies and card have also been claimed. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 7 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

What kind of speed gain? > >On Sat, 24 Oct 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the >> IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. >> For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic >> calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an >> ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine >> could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and >> I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. >> So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? > >Speed for one. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Zenith Luggable

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

I have a Zenith luggable ZFA-161-52 with the popup fdds. I've dug into Dejanews archives but haven't found too much on it. I know the model # indicates a Z(enith) F( 48 TPI double sided) A( amber screen ) 161 model 5 (slots) 2 (fdds'). There's 2 Zenith newsgroups , one of which seems devoted to newer machines and the other Z-100 which is mainly porn spam. There's also a program archive on Oakland. There also seems to be some confusion as to what is a Z-100 machine which sometimes refers to only the 110 and 120 models and other times to anything with a 100 #. Apparently some of the models ran CP/M and had a S-100 bus and also ran ZDOS ,compatible with MSDOS. Mine has some 1983 and 1984 dates on it and boots from DOS as apparently all would. The built-in monitor system indicates 320k Ram. It has an 8088 CPU on one of the cards but I don't see another processor for CP/M. Any pointers to a source of info or info on this machine would be appreciated. ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 7 months

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old IBM calculator questions

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Here are a couple of questions inspired by my encounter with the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator Mark I. For one thing, if this thing could perform all of the basic calculations to many decimal places in a short time, why build an ENIAC, many times bigger, and less reliable, when this machine could have been scaled if necessary? It had been in development, and I'm sure the military was working on relay-based machines as well. So why the choice of digital with vacuum tubes? Also, the plaque at the Mark I said that it was decimal. I am slightly familiar with flip-flops and stuff, but what would be a way to make a decimal computer? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

2
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Bid list

by franke＠sbs.de

>> these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and >> trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is >> going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 >> years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. > That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Trust > me, I don't think you're EVER going to have problems finding a 486 > motherboard, at least not in the next millenium. There has been a time when I thougt that picking up a ZX80 from dirt is not worth ... and now ? Also PET - have you seen the PETs on ePay ? I got most of my PET/CBMs way below USD 50 - and now ? Hard to finde won at a reasonable price. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

3
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Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

I posted the following - now translated message - on 23 October '98 Having had my wrist slapped, I apologise to all for such a very basic lack of knowledge and understanding. No doubt the same applies to the message When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 7 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

To anybody who couldn't read my original message because of html etc:- I thought it best to post it again - but then I would wouldn't I? Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born. In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 7 months

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How is a microprocessor made?

by oajones＠bright.net

I've always wanted to ask this question. How is a microprocessor made? Can someone here on the list answer this question? --Alan oajones(a)bright.net

27 years, 7 months

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In case you thought Ebay couldn't get more ridiculous...

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

What the fu... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37155064

27 years, 7 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 24, 9:53, Sam Ismail wrote: > Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa > On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. > > AppleSoft would logically return a +1 for the above statement rather than > a -1. Why the PET returns a -1 is beyond me. Couldn't they have added > one more machine instruction to strip off the sign bit? The PET is actually following the more common convention. The bitwise complement of 0 (all zero bits) is -1 (all one bits), at least in a 2's-complement environment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 7 months

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old IBM calculator

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Today, I briefly attended an Earthwatch conference at the Harvard Science Center. It wasn't as good as it could have been, but what was interesting was the IBM Automatic Sequence-Controlled Calculator, Mark I. This was apparently used by Harvard since 1946 or so. Now, it's in the lobby, or at least most of it. It's an electromechanical machine, no electronic components. Very fun to look at! The plaque said that in modern terms, it would have been 52 Hz and 1.7K RAM. It has one constant panel (dozens of rotary switches), an enormous array of relays, a missing multiplication module, a paper tape module (for output), a paper tape sequencer module (input), two typewriters (input and output), and a punched card device. It was shut off, except for flourescent lights, but I bet it could probably run...it was about 2 m tall and less than 1 m deep. The photos showed that it originally had a lot of pulleys on the back for dealing with paper tape. It is driven by a motor shaft that extends through the whole machine, spinning at 4 rpm. This acted as a clock and drove the tape mechanisms. Seems very easy to use, with proper instructions. I wouldn't mind having this in a hypothetical basement. On the plaque, it says it was used for ray tracing for lens design. Just thought someone would like to know :) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 16:03, Hans Franke wrote: > >> My Lord Hammurabi, I beg to report to you that this year we > >> have produced 1,000 transistors and 400 rallods of copper > >> wire. > > Surplus shops have taken 215 transistors. > > Do you want to buy or sell source code? That brings back some fond memories :-) > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? Probably same place mine went: loaned, not returned. I still have ":More BASIC Computer Games: 84 Fabulous Games for Your Personal Computer", though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 7 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have made double-sided boards that ran at 100MHz+. The trick was to us < (a) one side entirely unetched as a ground plane, (b) design all the < tracks as striplines, (c) know the characteristics of the PCB material, < (d) use 100% SMD components with the shortest possible ground < connections, (e) use carefully designed twisted pair lines to carry < signals about if you couldn't route the tracks, (f) terminate everything < properly and (g) take a lot of care and think about what you are doing. (h) accept lower component density on the board to do that. It's very doable but, a 4-6 layer makes it so much less painful for a production system. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by hhacker＠gte.net

I do not need to have messages like this sent to me dozens of times! William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks <erd(a)infinet.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, October 23, 1998 5:50 AM Subject: Re: Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education >> >> > You play the game like this: >> > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. >. >.

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 or is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of the retail valu in order to win it? Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but hve no idea what to bid on them. Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a "big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? Thank you for the post. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/ >I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. >The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of >interest to people on this list. >I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all >costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and >that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to >Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also >ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with >the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any ># up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any >questions. >If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of >the bid to >choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope >people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. >To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give >me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon >Monday. > >Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to >keep peace with the wife :) >Thanks >Dan Burrows >336-376-0468 >dburrows(a)netpath.net > > >

27 years, 8 months

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ZILOG article in South China Morning Post

by thomas＠0000000.com

Hi, Since I was sorta plugging using the Z180 in consumer electronics earlier today and this thread about the Z80 is running around, I tho't I'd post this link. The article covers Zilog history in brief and where they think they're headed. Zilog has been plugging the Z8 for awhile but I think the Z180 represents the company's real family jewels. Thomas ---- Revamped Zilog aims for the top in chip markets ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.scmp.com/news/template/Tec-Template.idc?artid=19981019192016031&…

27 years, 8 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Are z80's still being produced? Yes. <If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? actually the z80 is 1976 design and yes. The z180 is an enhanced part that is very popular in controls and other embedded uses. <I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses < a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too < fair. It's fair as the z80s were only running at 6MHz. <How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Not terribly. The actual test only used one. The rest were doing background tasks (printing). Z80 excels at IO and byte oriented tasks. The real advanatge was the system had highly optimized IO channels for everything and the disks had track caching. The other minor advantage is the z80 code used was tight and by time 386s got in PCs code bloat had already set in. FYI: the machine was originally designed to tackle several things more speed from a cpu, Multiprocessing/multitasking and more efficient IO systems. The IO systems part proved to be the key to using one cpu more efficiently. Multiple CPUs had a minor advantage that was offset by fairly complex programming. To this day that system runs but with only one master cpu installed(the other three are spares). Two years later Compupro would come up with the MPX1 combined with their frequent use of DMA to make one of the fastest s100 systems available (for any given cpu). Basically doing the same work I did earlier for myself and proving that multiple CPUs and DMA can be a performance enhancement when applied to the bottlenecks (most tend to occur at the IO level). <Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Partially to capitalize on available software (mountains of it all free) and experince. <Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? Because those were done also. I have a trackstar128, two 6502s. IT has a lot to do with the way the CPUs interface and the ability to interconnect them so they don't fight each other. The 8088 has a selection of bus interface chips that allow for multiple CPUs on the same buss (8289). Also multiple CPUs are a cost/complexity vs performance race and some win better in that contest. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i've got slackware 3.0 two disk set somewhere around here i'll let go for $5 In a message dated 10/23/98 8:30:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, bwish(a)pcfa.org writes: > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them.

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educations)

by mtapley＠swri.edu

Chuck McManis wrote: >You guys don't get it. :-) > >You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. >... > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... >First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Oh, I got it. I used to play that game with myself, but with the goal being "First one to match orbits and dock at the space station in polar orbit wins." I could never figure out a workable way to do it in one lifetime. (ObCC: guidance computers were a serious problem. Relays I built, clicking away in the vibration environment induced by a rocket I built? Right....Sequencers? Stable time reference? Oy.) I guess I'd have to start out: 1) Scout for native woman. 2) Establish dynasty. 3) Found school/religion to keep dynasty on task 4) Gosub Chuck's #1) above. ... :-) - Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.

27 years, 8 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by maxeskin＠law-smtpdev.hotmail.com

Are z80's still being produced? If so, are they the same as the 1980 ones? I would think so, since the TI-86 (still in production) uses a z80. BTW, I guess comparing the multi-Z80 system to a 386 isn't too fair. How much faster is it than 1 z80 running the same program? Why is everyone making multi-z80 machines, anyway? Why not 6502 or 6800 or even (gasp!) 8088? >< connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. > >Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and >TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were >you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! > >< Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven >< to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. >< Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? > >Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for >things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's >very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it >off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so >that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the >cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management >and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were >enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 8 months

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DEC Hardware

by jrice＠texoma.net

I'm going to look at some DEC hardware, a PDP-11/34 and some VAX equipment. I'm not into DEC's so I thought I'd look at it as possibly a rescue setup. This company is going to want some residual value payment. how much is this stuff worth? It was taken out of service a couple of months ago. I'll try to get a list of what's available. It's located about 60 miles from Dallas. I might want one of the Vax boxes, but I don't want any PDP hardware. Anyone interested? James

27 years, 8 months

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128k Mac Schematic needed

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

Hi, group. My 128k Mac went south on me. When I first got it a year ago, it turned on and the screen came up and asked for a floppy. Not having a system disk that old, I just put it in storage until I came across one. Needless to say, next time I turned it on the floppy made funny noises and kept spitting the disk out and no video. Does anyone have a schematic for the little beast so I can get it cooking again? If I have to, I can use my Mac Plus for my history presentations, but I would rather use the original, if possible. Thanks. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 8 months

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EDSAC celebration?

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

This question has been rattling around in my head for some time. Perhaps one of the UK people has the answer. I enjoyed the Manchester Mark I recreation. I saw the programming contest, thought about writing something really fantastic (a small computer language, whatever), looked closer at the architecture of the machine, and changed my mind. It's pretty limited. I was *quite* impressed by the noodle-timer program that won the contest, though. But I always liked the EDSAC much more than the Manchester Mark I (baby or full version). It has a very elegant design and you can get actual work done with it. (Because the Mark I ran a stored program first but was in proto- type stage, I see the EDSAC as the first working modern stored-prgoram computer, followed soon after by the finished Mark I.) And the Initial Orders are STILL one of the most ingenious programs ever. Except I haven't heard anything about an EDSAC recreation, and the 50th anniversary date is coming up! (Is it June 6 1999 or some time in May?) And M. V. Wilkes has remained active in the field, so he might be inclined to do something like this. Is anything planned? If nothing ends up happening, I intend to get an autographed copy of the Wilkes/Wheeler/Gill book. P.S. IMO history shows that British computer designs are often MUCH more sensible than their American contemporaries. They treat the computer as a tool to be used rather than a hunk of hardware with software slapped on later. Too bad history shows that British computer *sales* are LESS successful than their American counterparts. -- Derek

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 23, 20:54, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 23, 14:04, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > > than one person would get annoyed. > > I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) I was right -- I found it, all 118 lines, including comments, along with a pile of other stuff from David Ahl, such as KING.BAS (same idea, but twice as big). Who remembers this one: 1 PRINT "DIRECT YOUR DOG TO ANY OF THE FOLLOWING FILES:" 2 PRINT "KB:--KEYBOARD, LP:--PRINTER, PP:--HIGH SPEED PUNCH" 3 INPUT "WHICH ONE";A$ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>I'm sure I've seen a copy on one of the Vax sites somewhere. It's not "a VAX site", but Hammurabi does appear on the Spring 78 RT-11 SIG tape, and this is available by anonymous ftp from ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/rt/decus… The top looks like: 100 PRINT "YOU ARE THE RULER OF THE ANCIENT KINGDOM OF SUMERIA." 101 PRINT "YOUR PEOPLE CALL YOU 'HAMURABI THE WISE'. YOUR TASK IS" 102 PRINT "TO DEVELOP A STABLE ECONOMY BY THE WISE MANAGEMENT OF" 103 PRINT "YOUR RESOURCES. YOU WILL BE BESET FROM TIME TO TIME" 104 PRINT "BY NATURAL EVENTS. THE ONLY HELP I CAN GIVE YOU IS THE " 105 PRINT "FACT THAT IT TAKES 2 BUSHELS OF GRAIN AS SEED TO PLANT" 106 PRINT "AN ACRE. MAY YOU JUDGE WELL, ALKNOWING HAMURABI." 107 PRINT "***********HAMURABI IS HERE***********" 110 P=95 (...) > I'm fairly > sure I have a copy on one of the hard disks here, too. Somewhere :-) Heck, I've got my set of 4 8" SSSD floppies straight from Creative Computing with "101 Basic Games" and "More Basic Games". It's fun to fire up the IMSAI, load a game, fix the typos (yes, there are typos in many of the MBASIC sources!), and play a game of blackjack, lunar lander, or Hamurabi! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 8 months

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Intellec 8 -v- Altair 8800

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

When collecting vintage/classic computers it would seem to me that the apparently much sort after Altair 8800 is the Model T to the Intellec's R.R. Silver Ghost. At the time - 1974 - I thought the Altair was a very very cheap copy of my very very very expensive Intellec - and I still do! But then I would, wouldn't I? Have I fallen for all the eBay hype or have I've been wrong all these years? Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 8 months

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AY 3500

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

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27 years, 8 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Wire wrap?...hmmm I have problems with that in ohmic losses even the < connections is good, soldering them helped a bit but no dice. Huh? I have 6 cards, s100 protoboards with about 25-40 pieces of mos and TTL on them that I wrapped in 1981 still running. Ohmic losses? What were you doing wrong. Remember #30 is for signals not power! < Have data transfers done with DMA, all memory mapped and irq driven < to knock subCPU as needed to grab data then place it in CPU's lap. < Leave CPU alone for processing. How about that? Those 6 boards built a multi z80 system with DMA and slave processors for things like IO and disks. It helps but the z80 bus is so busy that it's very hard to slip inbetween cycles so you steal cpu cycles by holding it off with BUSRQ/. Z280, z8000 and Z380 use burst mode access to the bus so that other devices can get in and get a few cycles without holding up the cpu. Even with slaves you reach a bottleneck between memory management and overhead to move data around. Still the results with 6mhz z80s were enough to blow away 386/16 class machine for text oriented applications. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by Innfogra＠aol.com

What third party Unibus disk controllers are you looking for. I may have some non DEC controllers. I also have an HSC50, 5 RA81s, an RA60 and a TU 81+ in Portland Oregon that I am interested in selling. I think I have a couple of Eagles for sale too. I also have a VAX 730 with R80 & RL02 for sale. Paxton

27 years, 8 months

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PDP-10 arch question

by franke＠sbs.de

> < What machines have had bit pointers? > 8051. There may be others. Wasn't the 432 able to adress whole Objectspace as Bits ? Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Wow - thats it - I 've been already eaten up by megagraphics. >> So, anything I could Imagine was to reduce graphics to ASCII >> ... but Yo thats it Hamurabi ! >> Where is my copy of '101 basic games' ? > Mine's at home, but I do happen to have a version I ported to the PET > in 1978 that is sitting right here on my SPARCstation disk. I've got > xpet, and a directory full of my old tapes that I converted to .d64 > emulator disk format. I'd post HAMMURABI.BAS, but I suspect that more > than one person would get annoyed. If anyone _really_ wants a copy, I > can provide one. It depends on logical statements working as follows: > The statement C=(A>B) would set C to 0 if A weren't greater than B, and > would set C=-1 if A were greater than B. Not all micro BASICs support this. > I'm pretty sure Applesoft is onethat does _not_. Hmm shure ? I have to admit that I don't remember (stupid meone). But I think it will . After all Applesoft is jsut another MS-Basic. I'll try as soon as I'm back home. I'll post the result. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by Innfogra＠aol.com

In a message dated 10/23/98 5:54:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dburrows(a)netpath.net writes: << > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 ?Terminal cards for a 8 bit PC? >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is These are Color Graphic Adapters for the PC ISA bus >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 Small serial printer, 9 pin dot Matrix. >B28CPU G 1 CPU I think a 286 CPU for the Convergent Engine series, small box computers. It may need drives to make it work. >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? >> More terminals than I care to deal with. Be carefull with you bidding, there can be a lot of bulk wiith this stuff. Bid slightly over the scrap price unless you can't live without it. If you can't live without it bid 30% maybe. Watch your quantities. Paxton

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college education

by franke＠sbs.de

> You play the game like this: > 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > 2) Scout for (surface) deposit of iron ore and start mining ore. > 3) Using Coal + Ore build Pig Iron > 4) Using Pig Iron build picks and shovels to increase your > mining efficiency. > 5) Build Smelter/Foundry > 6) Locate lime and concrete develop cement. > 7) Collect Sand and use with cement to build an iron casting apparatus > 8) Using the sand casting build a steam boiler and steam engine > 9) Using the steam engine and iron casting build metal stamping > 10) Using Steam engine and metal stamping build rail road. > 11) Start mining below ground and locate Copper. > 12) Build a copper foundry. > 13) Using metal stamping build wire puller (makes wire) > 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. > 15) Using generator create electricity. > 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. > ... > First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) What about creating a Game ? Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< WIRE_WRAP!?!?!?! ICK! I usually pull out my cheapo PCB CAD program.... < A little laser-printer transfer plastic and an exacto-knife. the best you can do with that is two sided and that might run at 25-40MHz and that's pushing. < I cannot believe that there can be so many extremely complex processors < there running up to 667Mcyc (Alpha) and there not be any simple controll < with far less transistor counts that match or exceed those speeds. < There is no way we can get 600Mcyc clock speeds out of a 10,000,000 < transistor chip but can't get at least that out of a 100,000 transistor < chip. It all that complexity that permits parallelism of functions. The simpler machine are limited by the very direct and limiting propagation delays of gates. < As for the Z-80 vs Alpha features.... I like: < < 1) I/O ports. I hate the memory map stuff. (yes, I know it is the wa < things are done now) Memory mapped ops even with Z80 allow you to do things like OR data with a device or AND data from a device or use the BIT ops to test a bit in the device. None of which the IN or OUT can do directly. when you only have 64kb memory mapped hurts some. When you have 4Gb so what if you give up a meg to memory mapped IO. FYI the PDP-11 is also memory mapped and uses it to very good advantage! < (((((((THE Z-BUS!!!)))))))) (not the Z380 bus, that's almost as hosed a < the Alpha bus). < Do the Z-80 bus but with the data size control lines that I explained < above.... (or keep a 64 bit data bus and run a local bus into a 'DMA' (f < a lack of a better word)... Wait! A bus mastering device!!!! (<-- bett < word).) Zbus give advance status of the transaction to occur, that information is handy for tweeking the memory to make it get there in time instead of wait states. Z80 bus has a high bus bandwidth and poor bus utilization and this shows up when you have DMA peripherls. I'm not bombing z80, I happen to like it and have used it for 20+ years! I'm realist enough to know it's limitations and weaknesses and I can understand why the z380 is the way it is. Personally I happen to like the z280 as the user/system spaces make the 64k limits far easier to work with and also offers some speed with the 16bit bus, cache and a paged MMU while not locking the bus. The Z180 is a good compromize and easy to work with at low speeds, at 20+mhz it's a bear as the world around it has to keep up. It's not like using the z80 at 4 or 6mhz any more when you notice that the decoding dealys and the buffering delays are are a significant part of the system timing. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Book Source

by rax＠warbaby.com

A while back, someone posted a great source for used and out of print books. I've lost the URL and can't remember the name - could someone please repost it? Thanks R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 8 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit >> processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the >> 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this >> 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions >> can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage >> a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data > Well, it might be fun to redo TRS-80 Level I BASIC with 32-bit > instructions. (No way would I try to do that with LDOS/LS-DOS -- > it's already perfect). But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for 3.0 style bankswitching. BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Linix is free, but it still costs money. >> You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. >> You need a Distribution CD >> And a little time. >> Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ >> just for transmission ... and the needed time. >> And after thet you need time to install ... >> TIME IS MONEY. >> Linux is free but not without cost. > ** OR ** > You could get someone to burn you a CD copy, or find someone willing to > give away their old distribution CD. I was able to get a copy of RedHat > 5.1 burned for $5. I'm sure you could find someone fairly easily who > would do something similar. > I ran across a web page that listed people with old distribution CD's who > would either give them to you or let you borrow them. What I want to point out is that the price of a OS isn't just the package you buy at a shop. It's about the time you spend in installing and trying and reconfiguration etc. So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot >from a Disk. You could even put the emulator and DOS and some TRS-Apps on one 1.44 bootdisk. And best of all - Disk access will be Disk access. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>That's because only several thousand PDP-8's were ever produced. Doug Jones's FAQ estimates the production run over the -8 family's lifetime at about three hundred thousand. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/dec-faq/pdp8/faq-doc-6.h… for more detailed breakdowns. Tim.

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >> going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >> it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file > Linux? Money? Heheheh. What stone have you've been hiding under junior? > LINUX IS FREEE, MAN! Linix is free, but it still costs money. You need a computer, need a CD, need other HW. You need a Distribution CD And a little time. Shure, you can just get it over the Web ... and pay $$$ just for transmission ... and the needed time. And after thet you need time to install ... TIME IS MONEY. Linux is free but not without cost. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Its funny, I read through the list, crossing my fingers and hoping for a PDP-8 core stack, and 90% of it is PC junk. Then I kind of laughed because of course that stuff will probably be "collectable" for my daughter. Assuming she decides to collect computers. Although if history is any measure then she'll probably collect Pentium II machines since that will be the "hot" machine that she can't afford (stuck with a measly 75Mhz P5 :-) Another factiod registered which is PC collecting is going to be *much* more of an art than say mini-computer collecting is because the technology is changing soooo quickly. In case you haven't noticed there is a certain temporal component in the PC compatible space where the hardware, and more importantly the software, are tied together at their release dates. "Visual BASIC, Win 3.1, Borland C++, 486/66" they make a set. Use this stuff on a Pentium and it won't use half the features, use it on a 386 and it won't run acceptably. And how "long" was the 486 PC window? Perhaps 3-5 years? Compare that with the utter contempt with which people treat 486 motherboards (3 for $5.00 at Weird Stuff Warehouse) and you realize that these things are headed for landfill big time. Along about 2010 or 2015 and trying to put together a representative 486 system from the "early 90's" is going to be damn near impossible. Look at the PDP-8's which spanned 15 years of production and are now pretty difficult to get hold of. I don't know if I should laugh or buy an old Dell 486 box and wrap it up in plastic and dessicant and save it for 20 years. --Chuck

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I'm searching for a TRS-80 emulator for the Model III. I need it to be able to use disk images (such as LDOS), and boot from them. ThAnX, -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> The only reason that I need the emulator is to make LDOS, and a few other programs for the Model III - not to imitate having an actual III :^)

27 years, 8 months

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Linux on-track topic (was RE: TRS-80 emulators)

by jsalzman＠hersheys.com

Sounds like they have buying power greater than Wal-Mart's to offer such pricing. Either that, or they have exclusive rights to manufacturer or publisher overruns or defects. Jeff Salzman ------------------ "If Taelons had hair, would Du'uh be a blond?" >Haven't all you hard-core Linuxers bought from www.linuxmall.com yet? I >have paid $1.49 for CD's of the last 6 distributions I've used. They also >sell major applications (Word Perfect, Star Office, Applixware) for less >than the source vendors. I think I got the Applixware student version for >~$50 a couple of years ago. Oh yeah, they also sell Oreily books cheaper >than Oreily... >

27 years, 8 months

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PDP-11/70 rescued!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>While I don't regret rescuing this stuff, I have no clue how long it will be >until I could ever power this stuff on. The Hut has its own 60 Amp feed >seperate from the house, but 110/220, no three-phase power. I suppose I >could purchase/rig-up a 220V<->3Ph mechanical converter, You don't need three-phase for the equipment you got - if you look at the DEC power controllers, they just split out the three phase into three 120VAC circuits which power the individual boxes. Especially as you have MOS instead of core memory, 30 Amps will be plenty for a CPU, memory, and a couple of Fuji Eagles. Some big Massbus disks (and their Memorex and CDC mechanical equivalents) do need three-phase for the drive motor, but I didn't see these in your list. >P.S. ISTR that PDP-11/70's and VAX-11/750's use the same hex-height 39-bit >ECC memory boards. Is this true? Assuming you have the DEC MK11 memory boxes, yes this is true. There are also third-party memory boards available for 11/70's; my favorite are the board sets that pop into the 11/70's backplane and give you 4 Megs of cache memory, so there's no need for memory boxes! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 8 months

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Starting from Scratch (was Re: OT: Modern college educa

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> You play the game like this: >>> 1) Scout for a surface deposit of Coal and start mining coal. > . > . > . >>> 14) Using iron, and wire build generator. >>> 15) Using generator create electricity. >>> 18) Mine tungsten and build lightbulb. >>> ... >>> First one to a PDP-8 wins :-) > Hey! I though about this for a grad project in History - build a computer > using Roman technology (metallurgy, etc., since the Romans didn't have > electricity). Just what do you want ? The Z1 was _complete_ echanical and was build by hand on a kitchen table - and used anything also known from modern computers, including binary floating point. >> What about creating a Game ? >> Of course all Graphics has to be ASCII :) > > Not on a PDP-8. There was a vector graphics board set. It used an > oscilloscope for a display tube. As was proven in a patent lawsuit > filed against Nintendo, video games did exist before Pong, just not > in the living rooms of America. Stop, my question was not about greating a game on a PDP. The intention was to build a computer game where building a PDP (or something like that) is the goal ... Such a basic build up an economy game like Civilisation etc. But instead of geting welthier all the time you have to build up a PDP as soon as possible Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Booklovers: Danger!

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Rax (Sorry, can't remember your real name) wanted to know, and it seems I kept the original message. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 23/10/98 13:10 --------------------------- classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu on 06/09/98 06:29:19 To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu cc: (bcc: Philip Belben) Subject: Booklovers: Danger! Maybe I shouldn't post this.... O wot'th'ell, here goes. I have discovered recently a very dangerous on-line book service, which, in my *very* humble opinion, just beats the bloody tar out of the 'major' ones.. (Amazon, Barnes, etc). Some of you Listmembers may already be aware of these folks.. if not, the URL is; www.abebooks.com I'm *definitely* in Big $$$ Trouble. I have a very large library, around 10K volumes, journals, periodicals, papers... collected over many years. A lot of it is old, wierd, rare, fringe-science, technology, engineering, computing, etc. Now I find ABE (American Book Exchange) and they've got titles I've been searching for for *ages*... including a book I read in 4th Grade and never heard of since... oh dear: most of the booksellers on ABE take credit cards... damn, damn, damn...! I've already found over $1K of stuff I must have.. NOW! Anyway, I hereby disclaim and hold myself inurred and harmless >from anyone who goes bankrupt because I turned them on to ABE. Just try searching with Van Nostrand or Wiley or Howard Sams entered in the 'Publisher' slot... or pdp-11 in the 'keywords' section.... I'm in **trouble** ! Cheers ;} John

27 years, 8 months

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Rare 1976 Intel MCS-85 System Design Kit

by franke＠sbs.de

> I don't know if it is rare, but it certainly sounds unusual. Current price > is $27.00 and the reserve has not been met. > Another interesting item from ebay. URL is: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=36318754 Go OFF it's MINE ! :))) In fact, it's not realy rare, zillions have bin made, but I still miss it. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> That sucks (in my opinion). (You like my 16bit addressing? kinda make you > yearn for the good 'ol days when you programmed in hex! Like real men! No > sir! We didn't have no Visual Basic or C+++++++++! When we wrote a silly > like program, it was an accomplishment! (....but they still were silly > little programs.)). But I digress.... > I like: > IO port 0=Keyboard control > IO port 1=Keyboard data > IO port 2=Device 1 control > IO port 3=Device data > etc. Gee fine - back to the time when the CPU had to do any little pice of sh.. by itself - never asked why Mainframes can handle so much more date with the same tecnologie than PCs ? go back and learn. > Your response: "But, what if you need to transfer a big block of data like > a NIC? You really need to memory map that." > My answer: "Pretend that the IO addresses are memory. With a 128 bit > address bus, you'll never run out of spaces!" So waht now ? memory maped or I/O space There is ABSOLUTLY no sense in building a super fast CPU and then spending all time in I/O polling (or interrupt handling) Lets get real again. Gruss H. P.S.: in 1986 I had a 100 MHz Turing machine running - I bet it was one of the fastest computers at this time - Fast and Useless. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Hello Again

by franke＠sbs.de

>> In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that >> someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that > I think you missed his posting where he said he had received only 5 > replies. So it looks like a non-stater. Gee - this is not an option. >> person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of >> computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am >> prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. > I'll also provide machines and a talk if anything comes of this. I will haul up one trunk of machines. > Alas I can't provide much cash at the moment... Hmm maybe s.o. should look out for a place (not nessecary as fancy as the Santa Clara Convention Centre :), and when we have actual numbers, we might try to put up the money. I don't have much availabe either, but I thing we can find a solution. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >The only thing I saw of interest: > > BURROUGHS > >23879724 G 300 VIDEO BOARD ET110 $5 >283531-006 G 2 1351 CONT CCA ??? don't know what it is >2993-0666 G 295 WER SUPPLY $5 to $8 >3388-7498 G 169 KEYBOARD ASSY $5 >AP1351 G 5 PRINTER, AP 1351 If this is a complete printer $10 to $15 >B28CPU G 1 CPU >E2817B39-HT G 62 CRT $5 considering that they will have to pay to dispose of to meet EPA regs. >ET-1100 G 9 TERMINAL $5 to $10 Disposal costs as above. > >Any ideas? I put what I would bid by each item I could guess. I am not familiar with Burroughs equipment. Remember these are EACH prices. >There's also a ton of Apple ][ stuff like keyboards, power supplies, disk >drive mechs, etc. Great if you wanted to start a classic Apple ][ >restoration and repair business (providing the stuff is all new). That is why I thought this would be of interest to this list. If you note in the header of the list it is all in good condition. This historically means that it is surplus from a repair depot. The other condition code they have had in the past are as follows (pasted from the weekly bid list) CD CODE "N" = Never Used With No Factory Warranty. "G" = Used Material In Good Condition. "U" = Unknown functionality, RETURNS will be allowed ONLY if MISSING MAJOR components. "D" = Defective material with no returns allowed Dan

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>Can you tell us more about the type of auction this is? Sealed bid >Is it one of those auction where you can walk away with a pentium for $5 YES On last weeks bid I won a VAX4000-300 for $82. a bunch if DIgiboards for $5.00 ea. Sorry everyone that has commercial value to me. >is it more of the upper type wher you pretty much have to be within 105 of >the retail valu in order to win it? Not at all. This equipment is from a new division that did not have a surplus sales group. Tha format was different than the usual bid lists so I called my rep. about last weeks list and they are hoping to get 5 cents on the dollar. Anything that does not sell will be going to be recycled as they are very carefull about EPA regs. >Have you had any experience with this sort of auction? I have been doing business with them for over a year. The regular weekly bids I rarely get good deals on - about 70% to 80% of wholesale are typical. The special bids like these are where I make out. I will admit that this equipment is not the usual type they offer - remember it is a newly acquired division. >What I'm getting at is I've seen a few things on the list that I like but >hve no idea what to bid on them. I would be sure to be over the scrap value (figure 50 to 75 cents a pound is scrap value) but based on the bid I won last week not more than 5% of wholesale new. >Also it seems like the terms for payement are very tight 2 days to send the >money or you're out how do you propose to proceed? Are you going to send a >"big" check for the bid and hope that everybody follow up on their bid? I still do not know why they put that in there. I actually have 15 days >from shipment to pay for it. provided I am not way above my theoretical credit limit and YES I am hoping that everyone will be following through because I will be stuck with the equipment if they don't. I have had some long discussions with a couple of people on this list about this and was informed that most everyone is quite honorable. Another note of interest I have only gotten the response for 1 of last weeks bids so far. It had to be in on monday and I got the response thursday (1 day late). Tuesdays bids were supposed to be released thursday. When I get the response to those bids I will let you know. Don't worry if I think any bids are to high I will let you know. I can only do this however on equipment that I am familiar with. For shipping considerations due to the amount I won on last weeks bid I have told them to change it to truck and gave them my account info for a major truck line, This is the first time I have had to change to truck shipping. Also for figuring shipping I am in North Carolina. Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 8 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> BTW: LDOS - I have a Modell III with external HD - hasn't >> there been an LDOS to boot from ? (I'm not the deep TRS guy). > The only "official" operating system for a Model III with a hard > drive _was_ LDOS. Also for the Model One. TRSDOS 6, later called > LS-DOS, was written by Logical Systems for the Model 4. (There > was also a version of LS-DOS for the Model II/12 series [8" drives] > but all of my copies were lost years back in a move, along with a > lot of other material related to those systems -- as Ben Franklin > once said, three moves equals one fire). Jep, but what about booting ? The only LDOS I have needs still to boot from FD. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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ARCnet...

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

I've got a box of them you can have for the shipping cost. I haven't checked lately, but I think there are like 8 or 10 or more in the box... >Arfon Gryffydd wrote: >> >> 2) Anyone have any old ARCnet cards they wanna get rid of??? > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

At 19:27 22-10-98 -0700, you wrote: >A little more information such as the equipment being offered would help >us decide if there's anything we want :) The list is on my page, Sam. It's huge! 330K plus. That's why we decided not to send it directly to the list. The URL for the primary page is in my sig line. It can be reached directly at: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin/bidlist.txt -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 8 months

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Follow-up: Bid list

by kyrrin＠jps.net

The bid list that Dan Burrows mentioned is available for viewing on my web site. Look for the obvious link from the main page. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 8 months

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Bid list

by dburrows＠netpath.net

I am on a major computer manufacture's surplus equipment bid list. The list that came out today has a lot of equipment that would be of interest to people on this list. I am not interested in making any money from this all that I ask is that all costs will be covered. I will have to pay the shipping from them to me and that will needed to be figured into the final cost. I have just spoken to Bruce Lane about this and he is putting it on his web site. I would also ask that anyone that is interested in putting in a bid just email me with the line of interest and $ they want me to bid per unit. You can bid on any # up to the quantity listed. Please include your Phone # In case of any questions. If there are multiple bids on one item I will try my best to use the time of the bid to choose priority. I have no intention of making any money from this and hope people will understand if I get flooded I may have to cut things off. To give me time please let me know of any interest by Sunday Oct. 25 to give me time to reformat and sort everything for sending in the final bid by noon Monday. Also please keep any phone calls to before 10:00 PM eastern time. I try to keep peace with the wife :) Thanks Dan Burrows 336-376-0468 dburrows(a)netpath.net

27 years, 8 months

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FW: H8 computer

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Hey folks! I got this from the Heath reflector I am subscribed to. I already have an H8 that I built back in '83 so one of you should get it. I believe the SS-9000 Ron refers to is a Heathkit communications receiver (shortwave rcvr.) which can be controlled by computer. Have to check my old Heathkit catalog file on this. Email Ron directly. >Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 14:49:43 -0400 >Reply-To: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Sender: Heathkit Owners and Collectors List <HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV> >From: Ronald Oxley <rtoxl(a)ANDREWS.EDU> >Subject: H8 computer >Comments: cc: heathkit(a)qth.net >To: HEATH(a)LISTSERV.TEMPE.GOV >X-UIDL: 9c2d5417934b901b38c6fc24968d3523 > >For Sale: > >Heathkit H8 computer system. Includes computer, disk drive, terminal, >printer and software. Included with software is program for controlling >SS-9000 transceiver. Make offer if interested. > >73, >Ron, WM8Z > >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- >To subscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: subscribe HEATH yourfirstname yourlastname >To unsubscribe: listserv(a)listserv.tempe.gov >and in body: signoff HEATH >Archives for HEATH: http://www.tempe.gov/archives >--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- > Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 8 months

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Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board wanted

by eric＠brouhaha.com

I'm looking for a Lisa 2 or 2/5 I/O board. That's the version of the board with the nicad battery pack; the 2/10 I/O board did not have the battery or supporting electronics. Actually I'd be interested in any spare Lisa parts at all, working or not. Cheers, Eric

27 years, 8 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>> >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >> >course) is OS-9. >> > >> >-tony >> > >> You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and >> I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO >> version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 > >Note I said '8 bit OS'. That rules out OS9-68K, etc. I was refering to >the original 6809 version which is pretty darn good. Yes the it fits the description of being 20 years old and 10 years ahead (loosely:) > >-tony >

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file format of the disk image. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 PS>> I'm also trying to find something that's not shareware (ie: can only emulate Mod I, and can emulate Mod III arfer $45 registration fee). ---------- > From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: TRS-80 emulators > Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:59 PM > > For what host? xtrs can emulate the M3, and on a linux machine it will > use physical drives, so presumably you can make disks for your real model > 3. xtrs runs under x on just about any unix machine. > > There may be emulators for other platforms that can do the same. > > A good place to start is Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. Search for that with > your favourite search engine (the URL is not to hand at the moment, alas). > > -tony >

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by roblwill＠usaor.net

For some reason, I thought Linux was like $50, or something. Just forget that comment. I'm downloading it now. -- -Jason (roblwill(a)usaor.net) ICQ#-1730318 > > Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? > > >format of the disk image. > >-- > > -Jason > >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > > ICQ#-1730318 > >

27 years, 8 months

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L-DOS

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Incidentally, if anyone's interested in LDOS, the source code for (I >think) 6.3.x, along with disk images for the TRS-80 emulators are >availabe from Tim Mann's TRS-80 page. > >I loved LDOS. It is my second-favourite 8 bit OS. My favourite (of >course) is OS-9. > >-tony > You've got to be a real masochist or something, I HAVE TO work with it and I'd give it away for any other OS. Unless you're talking about the COCO version which I heard was pretty good for the platform it was intended; OS-9 is a dinosaur (and I don't mean a lean mean one) To quote one definition I read : OS-9 is a 20 year old OS that is 10 years ahead of it's time (for those who don't get it: it's 10 years outdated relying on reputation) Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by fauradon＠pclink.com

>Actually, Tim Mann's TRS-80 page is where I got the disk images. I was >going to get xtrs, but I don't have Linux (nor do I have the money to get >it). I have an emulator that'll run in DOS, but won't recognise the file Bzzzt, Linux is free That means you don't need money to get it. Get it? >format of the disk image. >-- > -Jason >(roblwill(a)usaor.net) > ICQ#-1730318

27 years, 8 months

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TRS-80 Model 4 I/O ports?

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 8 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > It is good design in my opinion to have your address bus twice as wide With a 128 bit wide data bus for a predominatly byte oriented machine all that means is every memory cycle gets you 16bytes at memory cycle speeds. It's a bus bandwidth saving trick as it effectively can give what ever your word time is to put up another 16bytes. This goes back to the core days when memory was slower than the CPU. The penelty is a whopper when all your doing it altering or writing one byte as you have to resort to RMW (read, modify, write) cycle at memory speeds. The alternate is a lot of word/byte selection logic that can slow things down. With the upper speed of available z80s (z180s180) being 33mhz there is plenty of speed so that it can hurry up and wait for the disk, floppy and user. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Building your own Z80 / performance

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have never tho't of the Z80 as a slow processor. I interfaced a Z180 < running at 18 mhz to a VGA board recently and using a C compiler was abl < build a machine that acted essentially like a 80286 running at 10 mhz. Inthe early to most of the 80s I've spent a fair amount of time using 6 or 8mhz z80s to blow the doors off of x86 hardware. The z80 is a better IO machine! < Z80 is a pretty cool platform for building an extremely cheap and modern < network computer since it acts a lot like a 16 bit processor. There's < you can do with it with a relatively minimal effort. The z280 is even better, the enhancements it has are pretty decent and it's faster still. Doing your own design in a FPGA is harder than would first appear. Unless your using a known core things like gate delays (race conditions) can bite you. Also some routing paths can be slower than others so you may get far less than the rated Tpd. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< As for the suggestion of using a DEC alpha to emulate a Z-80... I thoug < about it but, those darned Alphas are way too expensive for us hobbist Some of the early slow ones (under 200mhz) are in the used market for under a couple hundred. The other approches witll cost that much or more for superfast memory. < < Tell me more... what are Verilog, Xilinx or Altera? FPGA, Field programable gate arrays. The fast ones are down in the 2.5ns range per gate. < Anyone know if Zilog is going to beef up the Zx80 line???? The z380 series is that. There is already a z382. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Model 4 I/O ports - found

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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27 years, 8 months

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Hello Again

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

Well, I'm back. And what a long time it took. Two weeks in the USA, seeing California and attending the VCF; nearly a week in bed with food poisoning after the flight home; and two weeks on this bl**** awful new e-mail software at work before I could get it to behave well enough to trust it with the volume of mail Classiccmp provides. (We're using Lotus Notes, BTW. Most of us now call it Lotus Not.) I really just wanted to say I thoroughly enjoyed the VCF. Well done Sam, a wonderful effort. In a recent telephone conversation with Tony Duell, he mentioned that someone (was it Kevan?) was thinking of doing a VCF in the UK. To that person: I am definitely prepared to support you. I can provide plenty of computers for exhibiting; I can talk on some suitable subject; I am prepared to chip in a fair amount of dosh to get this show on the road. Looking forward to a lot of fun again reading Classiccmp, Philip. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Philip Belben <><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bloedem Volke unverstaendlich treiben wir des Lebens Spiel. Grade das, was unabwendlich fruchtet unserm Spott als Ziel. Magst es Kinder-Rache nennen an des Daseins tiefem Ernst; Wirst das Leben besser kennen, wenn du uns verstehen lernst. Poem by Christian Morgenstern - Message by Philip.Belben(a)powertech.co.uk

27 years, 8 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by franke＠sbs.de

>> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to >> know how to find something out that they don't know and how to power >> through bull s**t type work. I also expect them to know the basic theory > Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a > 362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across > 4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. Thats bad - he should at least have taken a class about resistor networks to build his needed one in a 3D configuration :) >> 2) I don't expect CS majors to be taught assembly, per se. In case you > Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' > they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some > idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools > that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code > (or whatever). So, you're just talking about the usual way , and why languages like C++ are so popular ... >> A fun exercise (in a nerdly sort of way) is to presume you've been dumped >> onto some raw continent with nothing but your brains and underpants, now >> build a PDP-8. (You can assume that you will have food and shelter.) > Hmm... I'd rather build a relay logic machine. Drawing the copper wire > for the coils would be painful but possible. Similarly making soft iron > cores and armatures. A lot easier than trying to make transistors, anyway. In fact, I think I would try to go for a more mechanical device - so I don't have the problem to create a power source and _stable_ voltage wich again includes semiconductors or other kinds of very delicate equipment like mercury rectifiers. >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official > source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. > This machine can be repaired. But independent of the chipset, one should be able to build a minimal start up BIOS to launch a real mode DOS and then a reprogramming is just some steps away. >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your >> out of luck. > Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics > anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and > repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a > custom chip at home. Thats why I still drive a 1988 Skoda Rapid - no electronics. Just imagine the finger print sensor of your new Mercedes S-class care goes wild ... (But on the other hand, a CX25 TRI, maybe as a 6 wheeler, is still a dream car ...) Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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FS in UK - Intel & Cromemco Etc. circa 1974 & 1980

by headcase＠eclipse.co.uk

Thanks to all those of you who replied about the computer equipment I'm selling I read all the replies up to about second week in September but lost those together with a massive pile of un-read mail up to a few weeks back.. If you havent had a reply - sorry - over confidence or Bill's bugs - I still haven't figured out which I've sorted through all my computers and equipment and listed them on my web pages .http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/ together with photos etc The Intell, Addmaster, Roytron, Mesonix etc. stuff is on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellintel.htm I have listed all the information I have, together with photographs of each item. Unfortunately I seem to have lost the folder containing all the original documentation but most of the stuff is circa 74/75. The Cromemcos and software stuff are on http://www.eclipse.co.uk/great-gull/sellcromemco.htm There are three working Cromemco Systems circa 1978 to 1984 - two System Three's and one Z-2H - together with a pile of instruction and technical manuals. I have listed some of the more interesting software on some of the one hundred and fifty (approx) 8" disks. There may be some software or manuals that are needed by subscribers to this list - that shouldn't be bundled for sale with the equipment. If having seen my web site - it's not bad for someone who never progressed past machine code - you think I have, or even might have, something you want e-mail me and I will try to reply promptly. Unfortunately most of the stuff is stored 150 miles north of here in Worcester, so I won't get the chance to delve deeper very often. It may offend some sensibilities that I will be listing most of the stuff on eBay just as soon as I have time. Those of you who think I should be less grasping should remember that I bought all this stuff new before most of you were born, when In the mean time I'm open to any offers and and will pay/arrange shipping to most countries Otherwise see it on eBay in due course. Jim Bunting - headcase(a)eclipse.co.uk M.V. Great Gull, Double Locks Hotel, Canal Banks, Exeter Ship Canal, Exeter, Devon, U.K. EX2 6LT. Phone No. 44 (0) 1392 493311 (On Board)

27 years, 8 months

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Emulation or the real thing?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I'm still skeptical. I'd love to hear more first-hand reports of < the oldest code still running as-is. Come on, code from the 50s < that's never been replaced? Running on what? Under an emulator? Ok, howabout a Brigeport milling machine with the PDP-8E it was purchased with in 1975, still running the same code. code from the 50s would likely be fortran or Cobol and yes it would be portable enough to go from one machine to the next with only a compile (no edits). Code from the late 60s era machine could still be running oth either native hardware or later machines that had to support old code. What is missed is code is expensive and hard to maintain so if you have something good and known you run it for a long time. I'm still running 8080/z80 code from the late 70s early 80s! If it aint broke don't fix it and the system that it was genned on is also 20 years old last March. So it's very easy for old code to linger. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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OT: Modern college educations

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >> >> A lot of discussion here on college educations, my 0.02. >> >> 1) I don't expect New College Grads (NCG's) to know a lot, I expect them to Don't. They're here to make the college money, not to get ahead in the real world. This is already starting to bite back, and will get worse. >I would also expect them to have some practical knowledge as well. And >how to make order-of-magnitude calculations/reliable guesses for results in >their subject. > >Please note that the 2 people I was moaning about earlier (one wanted a >362.83 Ohm resistor for his LED, the other couldn't grasp '5V across >4.7kOhms is a little more than a milliamp') were EEs. It's reasonable >that a chemistry student, or a classics student, or something like that >wouldn't have a clue about resistor values, but for an EE? It worries me. >It wories me a lot. But, why? Most of them will be getting a job in which they either follow flowcharts, or in which they figure out the prettiest way to put U1-49 on a PCB and attach a 6-pin connector to pins 1-6 of each U. If the world is unlucky enough to have one at a real circuit without a manual, the few comptetent engineers will find a way to make this guy's function unnecessary. At the end, of course, this raises unemployment and decreases skill. It's clear a crisis will occur <100y >Oh, IMHO all CS students should have some idea as to what the 'computer' >they are writing programs for actually is. And that means having some >idea of digital electronics and assembly language. I find using tools >that you don't fully understand is a darn good way to produce poor code >(or whatever). The thing that annoys me terribly is that people think they can do 'interesting' things on a computer, like web pages, and graphics, and so forth. IMHO, an artist should play with Photoshop and POVRay, while a person interested in computers should learn assembly. It's not mutually exclusive, of course, but I think there are too many people who could contribute a lot to technical stuff, while they sit lazily clicking away at the canvas. >Of course. Things you've taught yourself are rarely forgotten. If you >want to understand something then you will. Unlike the student who learnt >the book to pass the exam and has no real clue as to what it means. > Here's something I read in a ham radio book: "There are two ways to prepare for any test. One way is to study to learn the material, and the other is to pass the test. I suggest you study to pass the test" He was, of course, talking about the Amateur Radio certification test. Clearly, this book was made not for people interested in radio, but those who want to send messages about their private life all over the universe. > >> One of the things that struck me about a 'dead' PC I was attempting to fix >> was that the BIOS flash had been zorched and a) Not only was their no way >> to recover the bios but b) the chipset used was both non-standard and made >> by a now non-existent company who left behind no records. Talk about > >Thankfully the BIOS on this PC is in OTP EPROMs, and I have the official >source listings anyway. Ditto schematics of everything but the hard disk. >This machine can be repaired. > >> unfixable! When my PDP-8 breaks I can always go back to first principles > >Exactly. I've fixed my 8/e, 11s and PERQs to component level when necessary. > >> and get it working again, when the engine computer on your car breaks, your With a car, it's not that bad. You could order replacement chips sometimes, or you could try bypassing the messed-up function. >Why do you think that when I get a car I am _not_ having any electronics >anywhere enar the engine :-). Mechanical stuff I can understand and >repair. Electronics I can understand, but there's no way I could make a >custom chip at home. > >> Graphics card? "I'm sorry Mr. McManis but that information is only >> available under NDA to qualified customers who can prove a market of at >> least 1K units/month." Talk about self defeating! > >More people should insist on proper documentation. On a couple of >occasions I've returned a device to the shop that sold it under the UK >sale of goods act. The reason? It was not fit for the purpose that I >bought it for because important documentation (register maps, connector >pinouts, etc) was not available. Alas I doubt if the company ever >realised or cared... The thing is, the documents often don't exist. My father once worked for a HV PSU manufacturing firm, where the blueprints were just barely enough to manufacture the device. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 8 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But just tell me where 32 Bit instructions can be usefull ? < In fact, I can't think of any part inside a BASIC. But the < higher clockrates are a nice thing - and maybe the z180 for < 3.0 style bankswitching. They can address the full 32bit address space (without banking) and the z380 adds a host of addressing modes not in the z80 like 32bit indirect, PC relative and stack relative with long pointers. Also MUL, DIV and a handfull of other nice instructions that would sharply speed on the math functions. Also there are 4 sets of registers compared to the dual set of the z80/z180. Allison

27 years, 8 months

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Fluke multimeters: infringement of international safety standard

by Philip.Belben＠PowerTech.co.uk

This came round at work. I don't know if any of you have a Fluke 80 series - IMHO the Fluke 87 is still one of the best multimeters that money can buy. (I don't have that much money so I have a Fluke 29 and am thus not affected.) However, I believe electrical safety is something to take very seriously. I have received nasty shocks and nastier burns from accidentally touching the mains (yes, even the earth conductor), and the rectified mains in switch mode power supplies is even nastier. Not to mention high voltages in monitors, etc. Philip. ---------------------- Forwarded by Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen on 22/10/98 17:23 --------------------------- From: Chris Bright on 22/10/98 09:22 To: George WEDGWOOD/Westwood/PowerGen@PowerGen cc: (bcc: Philip Belben/PTech/PowerGen) Subject: Fluke electrical multimeters: infringement of international safety standard Recently Fluke Corporation discovered a small dimensional shortfall within its 80 Series III digital multimeters and 787 process multimeters. This means that the meters do not comply with IEC 1010-1 which deals with double or reinforced insulation in the 1000V Overvoltage Category III rating. The problem may be solved by fitting a replacement battery cover obtainable free form Fluke. The affected range of products are: Model Serial number Manufactured Date From To From To 83 III 69810781 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 85 III 69810501 71200001 29 Dec 1997 7 July 1998 87 III 69910001 71200001 12 Jan 1998 7 July 1998 787 All units prior to 71200001 7 July 1998 For further information please contact the local Fluke Sales Office on Tel 01 923 216400. [NB that is a UK number local to us at Nottingham. PDB] Chris Bright Power Technology File DXHA/SAFT/ELEC/OFFC

27 years, 8 months

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Building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> < I am trying to basically build a 64Bit Z-80 on a board. What I am > < looking for is: Anyone know of any chips that are EXTREMELY simple > < micro-controllers but, work at EXTREMELY high clock rates??? I wanna p > < a few on a board with some memory and made a 64-bit Z-80. I'd like th > < processor to operate at 300Mcyc (or faster) clock speeds so, I figure I > < need micro-controllers that operate at about 900 Mcyc to do the work. > Wait till April first for this. <rotfl> > I don't think you were listening when we were discussing propagation > delays. To deal with 300-900Mhz clock your talking 4-6layer etch and > some really fast logic. The .33nS memory will be tough to buy. Be > prepared to dump a few DecaKilobucks into the attempt after all you'll > need a really fast logic analyser and O'scope to see what you missed. Gee Allison you are talking like an engeneer - destroying a brilliant vision just by facts :) > If you want a 32 bit z80 get a z380, it runs native z80 code, until you > switch modes then compatability works but it has a lot of gotchas. Net thing, but just 18 and 20 MHz types availabe - running as Z80 a 33 MHz Z180 might be faster (And never forget: you can't use R any longer as random number generator :). > If your doing a z80 stretch, you better think about how to access memory > or really alter the z80 fetch timing. Basic Z80 timing for say 20ns > memory would limit you to some 40-50Mhz... it would be a 5-10 MIPS machine > though. If you superpipline it and get it down to 1-2 clocks per cycle > you can double that. THe Z180 is already down to 3 cycle/instruction, and the z380 is down to 2 cycle/instr. But since the maximum clock rate of the 180 is more than 50% higher than the 280, it's the way to go. > In any case there is no way to logically stretch a > z80 without running the risk of making it software incompatable at some > point. I've seriously looked at it, still have the 2901s I was thinking > of using. I have z80/10mhz parts however and the 2901s would barely do > that. And if you try, most 10 MHz can run at 12 to 14 MHz. > FYI: z80S180s can be had into the 30+ mhz range. :) Jep and 1 Meg is still plenty of RAM when running CP/M But after all where is the sense of having a Z80 as 64 Bit processor ? It's a well usable 8/16 Bit processor. Even the 380 isnt realy an advantage - you just don't realy need this 32 Bit instructions. A set consecutive 16 Bit instructions can do it in almost the same time. From my point of usage a 16 Bit uP is anything you need - compact code, compact data and greater over all performance. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 8 months

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