19 Dec
2009
19 Dec
'09
5:16 a.m.
First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it is the HP Integral's turn
.
The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a display problem.
After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises, but the display remains off.
Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03 EL-display as used in the
Integral ?
( there is something, but not much, in the 1985 HP Journal )
a replacement will be hard to find, and far too expensive of course.
I do wonder how those with 100+ computers keep them all runnning, I have maybe 25 classics
and find it hard to keep them alive.
Jos Dreesen
19 Dec
19 Dec
6:53 a.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jos Dreesen
Verzonden: zaterdag 19 december 2009 14:17
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: HP Integral / display schematic ?
First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it
is the HP Integral's turn .
The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a
display problem.
After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises,
but the display remains off.
Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03
EL-display as used in the Integral ?
( there is something, but not much, in the 1985 HP Journal )
a replacement will be hard to find, and far too expensive of course.
I do wonder how those with 100+ computers keep them all
runnning, I have maybe 25 classics and find it hard to keep
them alive.
Jos Dreesen
Jos,
Let it on for a while, I had the same problem.
After letting it on for a few hours, the display came back online.
I think it had to do some regeneration of it's caps...
After that it runs fine, I power it up every few month's
-Rik
11:46 a.m.
First the TU56 broke, then the Lilith disks goes, and now it is the HP
Integral's turn .
The Integral, stored a year ago in working condition, has a display problem.
After switching on the Integral makes all the right noises, but the
display remains off.
Anyone has a pinout, or schematic , of the Sharp LJ512U03 EL-display
as used in the Integral ?
Here's the pinout :
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
+18V --o o-- +18V
+5V --o o-- Gnd
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
Rst --o o-- Gnd
VSync --o o-- Gnd
HSync --o o-- Gnd
DotCLk --o o-- Gnd
DotsA --o o-- Gnd
DotsB --o o-- Gnd
Ths display is controled by the (custom) 1LL3-0005 chip on the Logic B
PCB. There's 16K 16 bit words of DRAM (4 off 4416s), a couple of dot
shift registers and some glue logic.
You can get my unoffical Integral scheamtics from the Australian Museum
site. It's an old version, I know there are errors (but AFAIK none in the
display controller circuit). I have produced an updated version, but for
some reason it's never got to the site.
And I didn't try to draw out the display module itself. It seemed to be
all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display
module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if
you think that's the problem.
-tony
29 Dec
29 Dec
7:26 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Here's the pinout :
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
+18V --o o-- +18V
+5V --o o-- Gnd
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
Rst --o o-- Gnd
VSync --o o-- Gnd
HSync --o o-- Gnd
DotCLk --o o-- Gnd
DotsA --o o-- Gnd
DotsB --o o-- Gnd
Thanks for the pinout Tony, it confirmed my feeling that it was the
display unit itself that was faulty.
The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was
also correct.
And I didn't try to draw out the display module
itself. It seemed to be
all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display
module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if
you think that's the problem.
This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used
to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage
required for the display. A shorted rectifier diode on the secondary
side was the problem.
Rik's suggestion did of course not help in this case, but i have seen
similar behavior to what he describes in a Compaq Portable III. Part of
the display was dark, and as the display warms up more and more of the
display became visible, over the course of a couple of hours.
Alas it was just a precursor for a total failure of the Compaq's display
later on.
I would still be interested in any schematic of the driver electronics
of any Epson electroluminiscent display.
Jos
12:42 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I assume you mean that the power rails were fine, and there were sensible
waveforms on the other pins.
Here's the pinout :
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
+18V --o o-- +18V
+5V --o o-- Gnd
Gnd --o o-- Gnd
Rst --o o-- Gnd
VSync --o o-- Gnd
HSync --o o-- Gnd
DotCLk --o o-- Gnd
DotsA --o o-- Gnd
DotsB --o o-- Gnd
Thanks for the pinout Tony, it confirmed my feeling that it was the
display unit itself that was faulty. The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking
signal that was
also correct.
Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is
this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself?
And I
didn't try to draw out the display module itself. It seemed to be
all custom stuff. There is what appears to be an HV PSU on the display
module PCB that it probably repairable -- I can try to figure it out if
you think that's the problem.
This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used
to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage required for the display. A shorted rectifier diode on
the secondary
side was the problem.
At least it was something you could repair, and not one of the custom ICs.
I would still be interested in any schematic of the
driver electronics
of any Epson electroluminiscent display.
So would I. If I had some clues as to what I was looking at, I'd be
prepared to take one of my IPCs apart again and see how much of the
display I could figure out.
-tony
30 Dec
30 Dec
5:17 a.m.
I assume you mean that the power rails were fine, and
there were sensible
waveforms on the other pins.
Indeed, voltages ok and syncsignals as described in the HP Journal article.
The small PCB mounted on the back generates a
blanking signal that was
also correct.
Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is
this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself?
This was
indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to 5V isolation converter, used
to power some logic that is required on the far end of high voltage
Where does it get the HV from? It must be generated on the display board itself.
> I would still be interested in any schematic of
the driver electronics
> of any Epson electroluminiscent display
Of course is is actually a Sharp
display...
Still would like to know why it needs a CPU & Eprom, since it has
already all required signals.
Jos
6:16 a.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jos Dreesen
Verzonden: woensdag 30 december 2009 14:18
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ?
No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it
contains 5 TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V
sync. Should have been done in the displaycontroller imho.
display board itself.
The very small pcb mounted on top of
the displaycontroller
board is the 5V convertor.
The high volatge is probably generated with the small
transformer on the big board.
Mine is working fine until now..
When I got mine it wasn't used for several years, and I got the Idea it
wasn't used much in the years before. And I did checked the screen signals
and had the idea it was the HV-supply not having a high enough voltage to
ignite the screen cells.
Or one of the little japanese who live in old electronics wasn't awake yet
;-)
Never the less after letting it (by accident) on for a few hours the screen
switched on. And it stays working..
Did you read the HP journal article about the Integral ?
It describes the engineering background of the Integral.
http://www.hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=122
-Rik
I assume you mean that the power rails were fine,
and there were
sensible waveforms on the other pins.
Indeed, voltages ok and syncsignals as described in the HP
Journal article.
The small PCB mounted on the back generates a
blanking signal that
was also correct.
Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these
displays. Is this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself?
> This was indeed the culprit : it is a 5V to
5V isolation
converter,
used to
power some logic that is required on the far end of high
voltage
Where does it get the HV from? It must be generated on the > I would still be interested in any schematic
of the driver
> electronics of any Epson electroluminiscent display
Of course is is actually a
Sharp display...
Still would like to know why it needs a CPU & Eprom, since it
has already all required signals.
Jos
11:06 a.m.
The small PCB mounted on the back generates a blanking
signal that was
also correct.
Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these displays. Is
this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself?
3 Jan
3 Jan
1:06 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
No, it is a small PCB mounted on the plastic frame, and it contains 5
TTL to calculate the framing signal from H and V sync. Should have been
done in the displaycontroller imho.
Now that's interesting. I am darn sure neighter of my IPCs has such a
PCB. There are 2 unused threaded studs on the back of the display
housing, is that where this PCB is fitted?
Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects to the extra PCB,
another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB. Most signals
are just passed on, the framing signals is generated on the board.
Both my Integrals have this.
Jos
The small PCB
mounted on the back generates a blanking signal that was
also correct.
Right. It's neen a long time since I've looked at one of these
displays. Is
this a little PCB on top of the display PCB itself?
10:11 a.m.
Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects to the
extra PCB,
another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB. Most signals
are just passed on, the framing signals is generated on the board.
Both my Integrals have this.
OK, I took one of my Integrals apart today to have a look...
This machine has serial number 2521A04575. There are 5 trheaded studs on
the back of the HP-made display hiusing, none holding anything. A 20 way
ribbon cable goes straight from the Logic B PCB to the display module
The display module was made by Sharp. It has 2 labels on the front
plastic frame. The LH one reads 'PM505160652'. The RH one reads
'00095-60032 H h21240' (the first part of that looks like an HP part
number to me)
The display has a conventional PCB on the back, conencted to the
electroluminesxcent panel itself by flexible PCBs which themselves also
have ICs on them. The PC is marked SO262YH and LJ512U03C.
It has 5 connectors. CN1 is the 20 pin plug for the input cable. THe
others all go to the flexiprints.
CN2 is `Data (Odd)' at the top edge, 10 way
CN3 is 'Data (Even)' at the bottom edge also 10 way
CN4 is 'Scan (Odd) at the RH side of the PCB, 15 way
CN5 is 'Scan (Even) at the LH side of the PCB, also 15 way.
There are 14 ICs on the driver PCB, along with 6 8-pin optoisolators, a
DC-DC converter (on a daughterboard) and the components for an HV power
supply. The ICs are :
IC1 : 'LS04
IC2 : 'LS86
IC3 : 75462
IC4 : IR3M01
IC5 : 75462
IC6 : 75462
IC7 : 2732
IC8 : LZ91E11 (this is a PQFP surface-mount device, all others are DIPs)
IC9 : 7815 (OK, that's a TO220 package!)
IC10 : 'LS04
IC11 : 'LS74
IC12 : IR2411
IC13 : 'LS04
IC14 : 'LS04
On the flexiprints are more ICs as follows :
On the print conencted ot the 'Data Even' connector : 8 off LZ1030M
On the print connected to the 'Data Odd' connector : 8 off LZ1232M
On the rpint connected to the 'Scan Odd' connector : 4 off LZ1132BR
On the print connected to the 'Scan Even' connector : 4 off LZ1032AM
Any thoughts?
-tony
2:12 p.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell
Verzonden: zondag 3 januari 2010 19:12
Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ?
On the net there is also mentioned that Epson made the displays.
So may be, there where two or more suppliers for the displays ..
I'll check mine this week and will put some pictures online.
I think you should look at these patents :
US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but
interesting)
-Rik
Yes, on 3 such studs. The ribbon cable connects
to the extra PCB,
another 10 cm long ribbon cable goes to the display PCB.
Most signals
are just passed on, the framing signals is
generated on the board.
Both my Integrals have this.
OK, I took one of my Integrals apart today to have a look...
This machine has serial number 2521A04575. There are 5
trheaded studs on the back of the HP-made display hiusing,
none holding anything. A 20 way ribbon cable goes straight
from the Logic B PCB to the display module
The display module was made by Sharp. It has 2 labels on the
front plastic frame. The LH one reads 'PM505160652'. The RH one reads
'00095-60032 H h21240' (the first part of that looks like an
HP part number to me)
The display has a conventional PCB on the back, conencted to
the electroluminesxcent panel itself by flexible PCBs which
themselves also have ICs on them. The PC is marked SO262YH
and LJ512U03C.
It has 5 connectors. CN1 is the 20 pin plug for the input
cable. THe others all go to the flexiprints.
CN2 is `Data (Odd)' at the top edge, 10 way
CN3 is 'Data (Even)' at the bottom edge also 10 way
CN4 is 'Scan (Odd) at the RH side of the PCB, 15 way
CN5 is 'Scan (Even) at the LH side of the PCB, also 15 way.
There are 14 ICs on the driver PCB, along with 6 8-pin
optoisolators, a DC-DC converter (on a daughterboard) and the
components for an HV power supply. The ICs are :
IC1 : 'LS04
IC2 : 'LS86
IC3 : 75462
IC4 : IR3M01
IC5 : 75462
IC6 : 75462
IC7 : 2732
IC8 : LZ91E11 (this is a PQFP surface-mount device, all
others are DIPs)
IC9 : 7815 (OK, that's a TO220 package!) IC10 : 'LS04
IC11 : 'LS74
IC12 : IR2411
IC13 : 'LS04
IC14 : 'LS04
On the flexiprints are more ICs as follows :
On the print conencted ot the 'Data Even' connector : 8 off
LZ1030M On the print connected to the 'Data Odd' connector :
8 off LZ1232M On the rpint connected to the 'Scan Odd'
connector : 4 off LZ1132BR On the print connected to the
'Scan Even' connector : 4 off LZ1032AM
Any thoughts?
-tony
2:59 p.m.
On the net there is also mentioned that Epson made the
displays.
Well, I can't find a maker's name on the actual display, but the PCB and
many of the chips (including those on the flexiprints going to the
display glass) say 'Sharp' on them.
So may be, there where two or more suppliers for the
displays ..
I guess there were. Given that the module i have connects directly to the
Logic B PCB, I guess that is the one the machine was designed to use. If
the Epson display needs the interface PCB to provide the blanking signal,
etc, it would suggest that it was hacked in for some reason.
It would be interesting to know the serial numbers of machines with each
type of display. Was it that the Epson display was used in early machines
(implying the Sharp one wasn't available in time, so they had to do the
kludge to have working machines), or was it that the Epson display was
used in late machines (possibly the Sharp display was discontinued and
they had to find a replacement) or what?
I'll check mine this week and will put some
pictures online.
If necessary I can take mine apart again and photograph it...
I think you should look at these patents :
US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but
interesting)
Will do.
-tony
4 Jan
4 Jan
12:37 p.m.
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell
Verzonden: maandag 4 januari 2010 0:00
Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: Re: HP Integral / display schematic ?
I'll placed the picture online this evening.
Quick pics but I'll think they do.
www.flickr.com/hp-fix
Reading your description of your display I think mine is the same.
-Rik
On the net there is also mentioned that Epson
made the displays.
Well, I can't find a maker's name on the actual display, but
the PCB and many of the chips (including those on the
flexiprints going to the display glass) say 'Sharp' on them.
So may be, there where two or more suppliers for
the displays ..
I guess there were. Given that the module i have connects
directly to the Logic B PCB, I guess that is the one the
machine was designed to use. If the Epson display needs the
interface PCB to provide the blanking signal, etc, it would
suggest that it was hacked in for some reason.
It would be interesting to know the serial numbers of
machines with each type of display. Was it that the Epson
display was used in early machines (implying the Sharp one
wasn't available in time, so they had to do the kludge to
have working machines), or was it that the Epson display was
used in late machines (possibly the Sharp display was
discontinued and they had to find a replacement) or what?
I'll check mine this week and will put some
pictures online.
If necessary I can take mine apart again and photograph it...
I think you should look at these patents :
US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but
interesting)
Will do.
-tony
1:08 p.m.
I think you
should look at these patents :
US4707692, US4642524 and USD322603(this one is a design patent but
interesting)
Will do.
5 Jan
5 Jan
10:45 a.m.
I've looked ath Rik's photos of his display module (on Flickr), and it is
the same as the display in both my integrals.
BTw, the heatsink in the middle of the PCB comes off by undoing the
obvious screw (it's tapped into a boss on the plastic fream, there's no
nut or anything to worry about). Under the end of the heatsink is that
gate array chip I mentiuoned. If you want to remove the PCB altogether,
you take off the hatsink, unplug the 4 eibbon tails from the PCB
connectors and remove the remaining 4 screws, which have plastic washers
under the heads.
-tony
5246
days inactive
5263
days old
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