24 May
2021
24 May
'21
9:04 a.m.
A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies.
What does it take to read these?
The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25?
floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing).
Zane
24 May
24 May
9:14 a.m.
On 5/24/21 9:04 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
A photographer I know contacted me last night asking
about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25?
floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing).
Zane
22Disk running under DOS on PC should read them just fine on a legacy
floppy interface PC.. However if these are FM-encoded floppies (not
MFM), you'll need a controller that understands FM.
There are utilities for testing this capability, see: "TestFDC" here:
http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img/
--Chuck
11:26 a.m.
There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track,
with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle
it.
Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track,
with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
Catweasel, could do it.
On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
A photographer I know contacted me last night asking
about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25?
floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing).
Zane
25 May
25 May
6:41 a.m.
Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with
a decent floppy controller.
As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
usable for imaging.
Best regards
Tom Hunter
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track,
with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle
it.
Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track,
with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
Catweasel, could do it.
On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
A photographer I know contacted me last night
asking about reading
Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
I do have
5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
think mine went to Jim Willing).
Zane
9:38 a.m.
Imagedisk is great for making images.
BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous
owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are
in those images.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just
fine on most older PCs with
a decent floppy controller.
As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
usable for imaging.
Best regards
Tom Hunter
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
>
> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track,
> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle
> it.
>
> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track,
> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
>
>
> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
> Catweasel, could do it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading
> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
>>
>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
> I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
> think mine went to Jim Willing).
>>
>> Zane
10:37 a.m.
Yes, we need to be able to access the files.
I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging
RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC
Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though
first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to free up
space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed
to finish the VAX/Alpha projects?
Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The
Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I played with it. I
*might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its
condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems more
unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and
there is a good chance it went to LCM).
My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear.
Zane
On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Imagedisk is great for making images.
BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned wanting access
to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those images.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with
> a decent floppy controller.
> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
> usable for imaging.
>
> Best regards
> Tom Hunter
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
>>
>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per
track,
>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle
>> it.
>>
>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per
track,
>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
>>
>>
>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
>> Catweasel, could do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading
>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
>>>
>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
>> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
>> think mine went to Jim Willing).
>>>
>>> Zane
11:22 a.m.
Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM with 10 sectors
per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not
common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic
and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required.
I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the
programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the
filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come
up.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
Zane Healy wrote:
Yes, we need to be able to access the files.
I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to
use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so
have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical
right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have
to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to
free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-)
The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects?
Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or
a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it
worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or
I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition.
An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems
more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t
been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM).
My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear.
Zane
On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Imagedisk is great for making images.
BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned
wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those
images.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with
> a decent floppy controller.
> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
> usable for imaging.
>
> Best regards
> Tom Hunter
>
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
>>
>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per
track,
>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle
>> it.
>>
>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per
track,
>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
>>
>>
>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
>> Catweasel, could do it.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading
>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
>>>
>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
>> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
>> think mine went to Jim Willing).
>>>
>>> Zane
12:25 p.m.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Zane Healy wrote:
Yes, we need to be able to access the files.
I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging
RX50 floppies. I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC
Hardware. I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though
first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I?m working on, so as to free up
space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed
to finish the VAX/Alpha projects?
Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2?
The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I played with it. I
*might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its
condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25? drives, but seems more
unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and
there is a good chance it went to LCM).
My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear.
Zane
For a while, Uniform was bundled with some Kaypro models. The Kaypro
HARDWARE can certainly do the MFM double density ones (~200K) with
Uniform, but I don't know ehther it can do the FM single density (~100K)
ones.
The Commodore 128 with CP/M should be hardware capable, but I don't know
of any software for it. Did they bundle any disk format conversion
software with it?
DEC Rainbow would be hardware capable, but I don't know what software
there is. There was a program 35 years ago, . . .
Apple2 can NOT do it. Well, unless you have one of the aftermarket
IBM/WD/MFM supporting disk controller boards, such as the Sorrento Valley
Associates.
PC can normally do it. 360K drive preferred.
Almost anything from 5150 up can do the MFM dounle density.
Dave Dunfield's TESTFDC can tell you whether the hardware can do the FM
Single Density.
XenoCopy used to support the MFM double density Osborne format, but NOT
the FM Single Density.
Chuck implied that 22Disk could do BOTH.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:35 p.m.
On 5/24/21 1:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
There were two Osborne floppy formats.? Both CP/M.
IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track,
with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1.? That will require
FM/SD capability.? Most NEC FDCs did not support that.? Dave Dunfield has a
test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it.
Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track,
with 1024 bytes per sector.? Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
will work with appropriate software.
I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies which still retained a
single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as
double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but
it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media
that's being accessed.
Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at
least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it.
Jules
12:43 p.m.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:
I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies
which still retained a
single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as
double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but
it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media
that's being accessed.
Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at
least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it.
For copying FILES, that shouldn't be a problem. For making IMAGES of the
disks that would be.
For copying FILES, you would only be accessing the DIRectory sectors, and
the tracks following them, with no need to even look at boot sector or
system track(s).
But, that's still a useful warning, to NOT try to tell whether the disk is
FM or MFM based on track 0!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:12 p.m.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote:
Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM
with 10 sectors
per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not
common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic
and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required.
I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the
programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the
filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come
up.
That should be very suitable for the FM SIngle Density ones, as that is
the same physical format.
Osborne was an ordinary CP/M, which is fairly well documented. I don't
have convenient access right now to the parameters.
Basically, there is a boot sector and system track(s) (How many
"reserved"/system tracks varies).
Then there are sectors with the directory (how many sectors varies)
In the Directory, each file entry is 32 bytes, with the file name and a
list of blocks that the file occupies on the disk.
If there are more blocks than will fit in the list in the directory entry,
there is a second entry for the file.
Each block is 8 or 16 128 byte records (which are often called "sectors"
to confuse you.
On old versions of CP/M, if the machine is available, STAT DSK: will tell
you most of the parameters. What it doesn't tell you is the physical
sector size (how many LOGICAL "sectors" are in each physical sector),
interleave, and, on double sided disks, whether the second side acts as
continuation of the first side tracks, or whether the second side tracks
come after the first side tracks starting at the inner OR outer tracks.
And, there can be numerous other oddities, . . .
7:58 p.m.
Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get raw disk images.
For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools:
http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/
Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4
so it is rather painless.
Best regards
Tom Hunter
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Imagedisk is great for making images.
BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous
owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are
in those images.
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them
just fine on most older PCs
with
a decent floppy controller.
As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
usable for imaging.
Best regards
Tom Hunter
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
>
> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per
track,
> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the
TRS80-Model-1. That will
> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can
handle
> it.
>
> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track,
> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
>
>
> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
> Catweasel, could do it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>
>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading
> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
>>
>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
> I do have 5.25? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
> think mine went to Jim Willing).
>>
>> Zane
8:04 p.m.
That should presumably do just fine. It is PROBABLY the MFM Double
Density format for the Osborne 1. But, more likely than not, that is
probably what they have. The early FM Single Density wasn't around for
long.
'course next step is for him to find a working machine with a 5.25" drive!
(preferably "360K")
On Wed, 26 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get
raw disk images.
For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools:
http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/
Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4
so it is rather painless.
Best regards
Tom Hunter
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Imagedisk is great for making images.
>
> BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous
> owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are
> in those images.
>
>
> On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote:
>
>> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs
> with
>> a decent floppy controller.
>> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is
>> usable for imaging.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Tom Hunter
>>
>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M.
>>>
>>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors
per
> track,
>>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will
>>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave
>>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can
> handle
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per
track,
>>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh
>>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives)
>>>
>>>
>>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your
>>> Catweasel, could do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>>
>>>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading
>>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these?
>>>>
>>>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga.
>>> I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I
>>> think mine went to Jim Willing).
>>>>
>>>> Zane
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12 comments
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cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie -
ccth6600＠gmail.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com