28 Jul
1999
28 Jul
'99
5:34 a.m.
Hi All:
Does anyone have any information on the Tektronix 4041? I've got a
hankering to play with the IEEE-488 bus but can't see paying the
current prices that most people seem to want for a IEEE-488
controller for a P.C. I've acquired an Tek 4041 with 512-K and the
rom Basic development firmware and even the manuals. But I don't
have the (optional) keyboard OR the diagnostics tape. If I could
find this tape then I could simple use a RS-232 terminal for program
input. I've even got a nice HP 150 that could serve as a terminal,
but I need that tape!! Speaking of which, this thing uses a DC100
tape. Know where a soul can find any of these tapes for less that
$25.00 each?
I know that GP-IB controllers are considered kind of low life - but
for some reason I'm hooked on this one (could be the 68008?). Hell,
you know what? I'm afraid that old computers are going to be as
addicting as old analog synthesizers and Tektronix mainframe
o'scopes.
Thanks all.
Roger Goswick
ccfsm(a)ipa.net
28 Jul
28 Jul
10:02 a.m.
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10:28 a.m.
Roger,
At 12:34 PM 7/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
Hi All:
Does anyone have any information on the Tektronix 4041?
I used to have one and I know a little about them. They're meant to be
used as stand alone controllers same as the HP 9915s. They're not really
made to use as interactive computers. The display is very limited and the
(optional) keyboard is next to impossible to find. I found one after years
of searching. A friend of mine has 7 or 8 4041s and looked for over ten
years and never found a keyboard. BTW Tek made a hard/floppy drive for
these called a 4041 DDU. I had one but traded it off. My friend and I never
could find a real manual for them. We did finally find a quick reference
card but that was all. My advice is to sell or trade it to a collector and
either buy a HP_IB card or something like a HP 9825. Those are much more
capable, easier to find, the manuals and interfaces aren't too hard to find
and you get a real keyboard and display.
BTW I have some National Instruments GP-IB cards for a PC. E-mail me if
you're interested.
I've got a
hankering to play with the IEEE-488 bus but can't
see paying the
current prices that most people seem to want for a IEEE-488
controller for a P.C. I've acquired an Tek 4041 with 512-K and the
rom Basic development firmware and even the manuals. But I don't
have the (optional) keyboard OR the diagnostics tape. If I could
find this tape then I could simple use a RS-232 terminal for program
input.
I don't think they're made to use a terminal.
I've even got a nice HP 150 that could serve as a
terminal,
I doubt the 150 would work as a terminal on anything other than a HP. HP
uses block mode transfers and lots of non-standard control characters.
You'd have a better chance using a PC with a terminal program.
but I need that tape!! Speaking of which, this thing
uses a DC100
tape. Know where a soul can find any of these tapes for less that
$25.00 each?
Yeah, I *think* lots of surplus tapes will work. At least they work in my
other Tek and HP stuff.
I know that GP-IB controllers are considered kind of
low life
Why?
- but
for some reason I'm hooked on this one (could be
the 68008?). Hell,
you know what?
I'm afraid that old computers are going to be as
addicting as old analog synthesizers and Tektronix
mainframe
o'scopes.
Yes, they are. :-/
Joe
1:57 p.m.
The thing I really need is the diagnostics tape. The manual states
that you can use an RS-232 terminal for programming this thing - and
then goes on to explain how to make an autostart tape to tell the
4041 to use a serial port as the standard programming I/O port. And
of course I never meant anything ill about process control or the
IEEE-488 bus(HP-IB - GBIBP whatever), but I have noticed that a lot
of folks do seem to look down upon machines that they have (in their
minds anyway) abstracted down to nothing more that simple black
boxes. Learn everything their is to know about a Commodore C-64 or
even a Motorola D5 board and you have acquired more knowledge than
most windows programmers about what really is going on, think?
Roger Goswick
rdg
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 9:38 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Tek 4041
At 11:02 PM 7/28/99 +0100, Tony wrote:
I may be missing something (and I know nothing about the 4041)
It's basicly the same as a HP 9915 except it has a few more keys
and
small (12 character?) LED display.
, but
Yeah, there goes the mailing list! :-)
Joe
doesn't the HP150 have an IEEE-488 port (aka GPIB,
HPIB) as
standard.
Yes, it does but the 150 uses the port to connect to peripherals
operating under MS-DOS. It has no commands that will let you send or
recieve specific strings over the HP-IB.
Certainly the 150-II does. It's used to link up the
HP's disk and
tape
drives, etc. But it's a real IEEE-488 interface
that can do just
about
everything you'd expect.
Yes, but it doesn't have support for instruments and such and you
can't
get direct control over what's send over the bus.
> I know that GP-IB controllers are considered kind of low life -
but
Are they? I find them rather useful....
> for some reason I'm hooked on this one (could be the 68008?).
Hell,
you know what?
I'm afraid that old computers are going to be as
addicting as old analog synthesizers and Tektronix mainframe
o'scopes.
Uh-Oh... _Another_ Tek 'scope person...
2:37 p.m.
At 11:02 PM 7/28/99 +0100, Tony wrote:
I may be missing something (and I know nothing about the 4041)
It's basicly the same as a HP 9915 except it has a few more keys and a
small (12 character?) LED display.
, but
Yeah, there goes the mailing list! :-)
Joe
doesn't the HP150 have an IEEE-488 port (aka GPIB,
HPIB) as standard.
Yes, it does but the 150 uses the port to connect to peripherals
operating under MS-DOS. It has no commands that will let you send or
recieve specific strings over the HP-IB.
Certainly the 150-II does. It's used to link up the
HP's disk and tape
drives, etc. But it's a real IEEE-488 interface that can do just about
everything you'd expect.
Yes, but it doesn't have support for instruments and such and you can't
get direct control over what's send over the bus.
I know that GP-IB controllers are considered
kind of low life - but
Are they? I find them rather useful....
for some reason I'm hooked on this one (could
be the 68008?). Hell,
you know what? I'm afraid that old computers are going to be as
addicting as old analog synthesizers and Tektronix mainframe
o'scopes.
Uh-Oh... _Another_ Tek 'scope person...
29 Jul
29 Jul
2:58 a.m.
At 08:57 PM 7/28/99 -0500, Roger wrote:
The thing I really need is the diagnostics tape.
Good luck finding one. I have never seen a factory tape of any kind.
The manual states
that you can use an RS-232 terminal for programming
this thing
That's news to me but like I said I've never found a manual for them.
- and
then goes on to explain how to make an autostart tape
to tell the
4041 to use a serial port as the standard programming I/O port.
Does the manual say if you can write the programs on annother machine and
record them to tape and then use the tape in this one? HP makes a similar
box called a HP 9915. It's basicly a HP 85 in a small box with no display,
keyboard and an optioal tape drive. You can write your programs on a
regular 85 and record them on tape ih an "Autost" file and then put the
tape in the 9915 and it will load it automaticly.
And
of course I never meant anything ill about process
control or the
IEEE-488 bus(HP-IB - GBIBP whatever), but I have noticed that a lot
of folks do seem to look down upon machines that they have (in their
minds anyway) abstracted down to nothing more that simple black
boxes.
That's not true of the folks on this list. They're very into computers
that are used as controllers.
Learn everything their is to know about a Commodore C-64 or
even a Motorola D5 board and you have acquired more
knowledge than
most windows programmers about what really is going on, think?
You know it!
Joe
4:30 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Joe
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 9:59 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: RE: Tek 4041
At 08:57 PM 7/28/99 -0500, Roger wrote:
The thing I really need is the diagnostics tape.
< Good luck finding one. I have never seen a factory tape of any
kind.
This tape is/was standard issue with all 4041 - according to
everything I've seen so far. which consist of 2 4041 manuals and 3
or 4 Tek catalogs.
The manual states
that you can use an RS-232 terminal for programming
this thing
That's news to me but like I said I've never found a manual for
them.
- and
then goes on to explain how to make an autostart tape
to tell the
4041 to use a serial port as the standard programming I/O port.
< Does the manual say if you can write the programs on annother
machine and
<record them to tape and then use the tape in this one? HP makes a
similar
<box called a HP 9915. It's basicly a HP 85 in a small box with no
display,
<keyboard and an optioal tape drive. You can write your programs on
a
<regular 85 and record them on tape ih an "Autost" file and then put
the
<tape in the 9915 and it will load it automaticly.
No! Not at all. The manual states that you can (and should) use an
RS-232 terminal as the 'systems console' if you will. This is for
communications with and programming of the 4041 - an I/O device.
BTW, UPS just left a HP 87XM on my porch - more wasted nights on the
way!! (Don't you just love $30.00 computers!)
And
of course I never meant anything ill about process
control or the
IEEE-488 bus(HP-IB - GBIBP whatever), but I have noticed that a lot
of folks do seem to look down upon machines that they have (in
their
minds anyway) abstracted down to nothing more that
simple black
boxes.
< That's not true of the folks on this list. They're very into
computers
< that are used as controllers.
For this Guys - I'm very thankful. I'm a member of Analog Heaven, a
place where we talk about analog synthesizers. You don't use the D
word else your bombarded with hate mail, so I've learned to tread
softly.
Learn everything their is to know about a Commodore C-64 or
even a Motorola D5 board and you have acquired more
knowledge than
most windows programmers about what really is going on, think?
You know it!
Joe
6:20 a.m.
At 11:30 AM 7/29/99 -0500, Roger wrote:
At 08:57 PM 7/28/99 -0500, Roger wrote:
Yeah, but tapes and manuals seem to have a way of never showing up with
the computers!
The thing I really need is the diagnostics tape.
< Good luck finding one. I have never seen a factory tape of any
kind.
This tape is/was standard issue with all 4041 - according to
everything I've seen so far. which consist of 2 4041 manuals and 3
or 4 Tek catalogs.
The manual states
Hmm. Very different from the HPs.
This is for
that you can use an RS-232 terminal for
programming this thing
That's news to me but like I said I've never found a manual for
them.
- and
then goes on to explain how to make an autostart
tape to tell the
4041 to use a serial port as the standard programming I/O port.
< Does the manual say if you can write the programs on annother
machine and
<record them to tape and then use the tape in this one? HP makes a
similar
<box called a HP 9915. It's basicly a HP 85 in a small box with no
display,
<keyboard and an optioal tape drive. You can write your programs on
a
<regular 85 and record them on tape ih an "Autost" file and then put
the
<tape in the 9915 and it will load it automaticly.
No! Not at all. The manual states that you can (and should) use an
RS-232 terminal as the 'systems console' if you will. communications with and programming of the 4041 - an
I/O device.
BTW, UPS just left a HP 87XM on my porch - more wasted nights on the
way!! (Don't you just love $30.00 computers!)
Yeap, The cheaper the computer the more time it takes to figure it out!
The 87XM is a NICE computer, you should use it for a HP-IB controller and
forget the 4041. I have plenty of docs on the 85/86/87, let me know if you
have questions.
Joe
10:16 a.m.
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2:51 p.m.
Tony,
At 11:16 PM 7/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
THAT's news to me! I've never heard of using a 150 as a HP-IB
controller and I have a large STACK of 150 documentation and none of it
even hints that you can what you're talking about. Can you make a copy of
that for me? S@#* and I've got a pile of 150s setting out in the rain
cause I had no use for them!
, but
That's news to me (and I guess to HP). The HP150 Technical Reference
Manual has a section entitled 'HPIB Interfacing' which describes how to
use the HPIB port for non-disk devices.
doesn't the HP150 have an IEEE-488 port (aka
GPIB, HPIB) as standard.
Yes, it does but the 150 uses the port to connect to peripherals
operating under MS-DOS. It has no commands that will let you send or
recieve specific strings over the HP-IB. There are some _firmware_ (not hardware - the
HP150's hardware can do
just about anything on the HPIB - it's based on a TMS 9914 controller).
In particular, the HP150 expects to initiate every bus transaction, and
therefore doesn't support SRQ, Trigger, Multiple controllers or
transactions between other devices on the same bus. But for controlling
simple instruments it should be fine.
Basically you OPEN a device called HPIBDEV. Then use the MS-DOS IOCTRL
call to send control blocks to the HPIB driver. The manual describes the
format of said blocks and gives an example program in C to talk to a 9111
graphics tablet.
In C? Is there a C that will run on the 150? Most of the software has
to be tailored specificly for the 150 or else be VERY MS-DOS compatible
with no short cuts. I've heard of BASIC, Assembler and Pascal that will run
on the 150 but I haven't heard of a C compiler that would.
Joe
3:48 p.m.
I most certainly don't mean to offend, in fact not being offensive
in any way to anyone is one of my life long goals - and one I'm
continually improving at;). I had an instructor in tech school that
taught me that we all abstract reality up to the point were happy
with our understanding of things. Think about it. Most people - even
technical folks like us - we really don't understand what's going on
at all levels of, say, a hard drive. I'm smart enough to know that
every byte on a hard drive might consume more that 8 bits, and that
the term bits don't really apply at all to what's going on in the
"magnetic domain". It's all analog down there. Above that layer of
abstraction there are many different encoding schemes used for
redundancy and reliability, partial response most likely answer
might be an example. Below the analog level, at the atomic level and
the subatomic level all sorts of complex things are occurring that
probably only a few scores of people understand, like how magnetic
domains might interact with gravity waves at the quantum level. I
don't have time in my day for everything I need to learn now - much
less time to study and understand drives at this level, thus I've
abstracted them - in my little week mind - down to the point that I
don't even think about the lower levels, I just think about how I
need to use them to accomplish my goals, now - today. Yes, I still
set and think about these lower level of abstraction sometimes, but
I'd be more likely to set and think about why we can't get cheep
SCSI drives with multiple head actuators with multiple heads per
actuator. My boss doesn't need to even worry about any of the above
to do his work, so he as abstracted the whole process to a point
about 6 or 7 levels above me, namely
"Create Unique Clustered Index GoshDarn on LidMasterSales
(DTE,CUSTNO,PROD#,DEX_ID)
Now that's about as abstract as it get! But it sure works for him,
thus I see nothing "bad" about abstracting something complex (notice
I didn't say complicated) to the point of usefulness - and it just
strict me how long this post is getting. Sorry for the wasted
bandwidth folks, it must be the Canadian Club again.
Logic analyzer eh? Must be nice! BTW Tony, I'm just starting on
this IEEE-488 trek and wonder if you could recommend some good
reading material to start out on. My goal is basic understanding and
the scope is instrument and test control. Thanks.
Roger Goswick
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
[mailto:CLASSICCMP-owner@u.washington.edu]On Behalf Of Tony Duell
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 1999 5:36 PM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: Re: Tek 4041
4041 to use a serial port as the standard programming
I/O port.
And
of course I never meant anything ill about process
control or the
IEEE-488 bus(HP-IB - GBIBP whatever), but I have noticed that a
lot
of folks do seem to look down upon machines that they
have (in
their
minds anyway) abstracted down to nothing more that
simple black
boxes. Learn everything their is to know about a Commodore C-64 or
even a Motorola D5 board and you have acquired more knowledge than
most windows programmers about what really is going on, think?
I don't follow this at all. To me, GPIB is just another 8 bit
parallel
interfave that I can send bytes over. It's got 8 data lines, 3
handshake
lines, 5 control lines. That's it.
I don't 'abstact' anything down to a black box. I think in terms of
the
signals on the logic analyser screen, the registers in the GPIB
controller chip, the state diagrams in the IEEE-488 standard.
You're right - I do (as do others here) like to understand what's
going
on inside my machines. But I don't see how GPIB prevents me from
doing this
-tony
30 Jul
30 Jul
10:08 a.m.
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