Perhaps cheaper still, a Raspberry Pico. Those go for $4, which even for the smaller Arduinos is hard to beat. paul

Black box may have something. They had something similar where you could call in via phone and activate a switch to reboot a computer. Sent from my iPhone

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 4:46 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: That sounds like exactly the kind of company they used to be :P I just wanted to mention that back when we did POS systems, we had cash drawers that were operated off of an RS232 port not by looking at the data stream but simply by triggering off the DTR line. The drawer contained basically a capacitor and a solenoid. So if you have control over the serial port on the "commanding" end, that sort of thing can be an option for triggering physical devices. G.

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: The MCU has replaced the hammer! . . . "To a man with a HAMMER|(big jar of blue and black pill MCUs), everything looks like a NAIL|(job for an MCU)"

Thanks to everyone who responded. And thanks to Wayne for the black box suggestion. I have actually been thinking about that very product. What it does is switch a master port to one of several other ports. Not far from what I'm seeking. I was thinking of buying one of these and hacking it to trigger a relay instead of a change of port. But before I went down that path, I thought I'd ask if anyone knew something more fit for purpose. Seems not and either this black box unit with a hack or a mcu might be my options. Thanks all! 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx -----Original Message----- From: Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Friday, November 11, 2022 5:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Cc: Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device? Something like this… https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Box-Corporation-Modified-SWED98174-Cos-II-Co… Sent from my iPhone On Nov 11, 2022, at 14:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: On Fri, 11 Nov 2022, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I keep a big jar around that's full of blue- and black pill MCU boards, as well as a few of the more capable STM32F4 and F7 boards. Nowadays, everything seems to look like a job for an MCU. The MCU has replaced the hammer! . . . "To a man with a HAMMER|(big jar of blue and black pill MCUs), everything looks like a NAIL|(job for an MCU)"

According to a manual I found on the internet, it has three modes. One mode where the "arming" character and the subsequent port selection character are not passed through, one where it does pass through and one where there must be a (settable) delay between the arming and port selection characters. I looked at a picture of the main board of one of these black box COS units (code operated switch) and it appears there are two UARTS back to back. Between the UARTs where the data is parallel, there is an 8-bit comparator (74HCT688E) that checks the data flowing to an 8 position dip switch that lets you set the arming character. All sounds simple. But I must admit, if I were to build something similar, I wouldn’t bother with two back to back uarts, an MCU would certainly be the way to go. 73 Eugene W2HX Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@w2hx -----Original Message----- From: Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2022 3:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Cc: Mike Stein <mhs.stein(a)gmail.com> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device? Can the magic control codes pass through to the remote device or does the "black box" have to eat them? Makes quite a difference... m On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 5:14 PM W2HX via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

On 11/11/22 14:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Probably true--there are commodity light bulbs and flashlights with MCUs in them. The price of the Chinese OTP ones has dropped to a few cents--less than a package of chewing gum. "Silicon is cheap" is the motto of our times. --Chuck

On 12/11/2022 10:28, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: Surely a microcontroller is just a 555 with a few extra transistors? Another tool in the box, just that it happens to be very cheap. You should check out Usagi Electric on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/Nakazoto/videos, he's putting together a valve-based recreation  of 1-bit processor (the MC14500B). He makes his own PCBs too :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com

On 2022-11-12 11:08, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: And if you like to "tune" your ne555, you can do it on your own: https://www.adafruit.com/product/1526 :)

On 11/12/22 02:28, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: It's inevitable evolution--why fight it? Without that, we'd all be nematodes or bacteria. MCUs make a lot of very complex stuff simple. A tape controller that would have required a couple of large PCBs now can be put on a filing-card size pcb--and most of that is connectors. Almost anything electronic sold today has an MCU in it--even a lithium cell. One thing that a small MCU has over a 555 is that it can be programmed once and you can be assured of its frequency stability. No fooling with pots and caps to get the thing to work the way you'd like. Signal processing is fairly easy when a commodity MCU has a fast-enough ADC and lots of memory? You can write your own realtime FFT software for it with no problem. Why write a CRC calculation routine when there's dedicated hardware to do that? If anything, a modern medium-scale MCU can be so packed with peripherals and features that the reference manual outlining them can run to a couple thousand pages. Productions yields have drastically improved since Hans Kamenzind spun the 555. I'm sure that he would approve of MCUs, were he still alive. I'm certain you'd be tickled to see your beloved HP 9800 series box re-imagined in TO5 germanium point-contact transistors and relays. --Chuck

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 12:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: Yes, that, plus since many products have a hardware team and a firmware/software team, the hardware can be designed to general requirements and sent out for manufacture while the software team has time to write the firmware (and make changes long after the hardware is set). One of the first times I encountered this was stripping some old emergency exit lights for parts c. 2008. The switching supply had an 8-pin PIC for the oscillator instead of a 555. Yes, a 555 could have done it, but the PIC didn't need any external components to set the frequency, components that can drift with age, and components that take up board space. Even if the 555 and MCU were identical in cost for the IC, the MCU was cheaper because of the smaller footprint. Additionally, the designers had some flexibility. To change the frequency with a 555 after manufacture is an expensive proposition. With an MCU, if it's flashable in-circuit (clip or possibly programming pads near/at the MCU), then one can change the behavior without melting any metal or purchasing components. While one may never need to change the frequency of a SMPSU oscillator after initial design, there are plenty of products where it's handy that the hardware guys can say "here's an output that can go from 1/10Hz to 20Khz - what do you want it to be?" and not worry about design limitations, just set the frequency in the firmware and it does that. You can build some generic hardware (X inputs, Y outputs with Z mA current drive) and fine tune things later, or have variations on what the inputs mean and not have to change the PCB. Yeah, the 555 is extremely simple and is well known and is fairly cheap, simple MCUs are simple (and cheap) even if they aren't 100% deterministic like a chip with 20-30 transistors. There's economic advantage in flexibility. -ethan

I bet NN/AI would be helpful with data recovery - if we can model certain common failure modes with those old drive heads we could infer what the data should have been... -- Anders Nelson On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 1:05 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

IMHO, AI is bull Martin -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: 13 November 2022 15:10 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: Paul Koning &lt;paulkoning(a)comcast.net&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Inline Serial Device? NN maybe, I need to understand those better. I see they are now a building block for OCR. AI, not so clear. In my view, AI is a catch-all term for "software whose properties are unknown and probably unknowable". A computer, including one that executes AI softwware, is a math processing engine, so in principle its behavior is fully defined by its design and by the software in it. But when you do AI in which "learning" is part of the scheme, the resulting behavior is in fact unknown and undefined. For some applications that may be ok. OCR doesn't suffer materially from occasional random errors, since it has errors anyway from the nature of its input. But, for example, I shudder at the notion of AI in safety-critical applications (like autopilots for aircraft, or worse yet for cars). A safety critical application implemented in a manner that precludes the existence of a specification is a fundanmentally insane notion. paul

That's a good description. I see all too many "inventions" that can be summarized as "use prior art solution X to well known problem Y by executing X in an AI (or "machine learning") system." Sigh. paul

On 2022-11-12 11:05 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I do too, but don't welcome the market droids that make you upgrade all the time. I am putting a projection TV in the living room, and needed to use all this HDMI or wire less crap. What ever happened to 75 video and 150? ohm terminated audio. Ben. PS At least my new computer still has a COM port.

On 2022-11-12 12:33 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Watch out for Indians. :) Ben.

Nice one! LOL! m On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 3:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022, 4:41 PM Glen Slick via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.orgwrote: I'm never quite sure which way to read the menu there, but the food is good. Warner

On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 8:23 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: FEED FACE DEAD BEEF -ethan

On 11/12/22 15:41, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: In one, dessert comes first and finishes with salad.

Just checked RS components which is the supplier I normally use. Assuming I want a through-hole DIP device (not surface mount), I can get a TI NE555 for 28.4p if I buy 50 at a time. That is not a large quantity even for a hobbyist. -tony

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022, Peter Corlett wrote: A quick search reveals that a single NE555 costs 0.25 Euros at Reichelt, *including* VAT. I'm sure they can be had much much cheaper in quantities. Christian

A surprisingly complex project ;-) For another alternative, the ever prolific Geoff Graham and co. have developed an amazingly versatile BASIC interpreter for the Pi Pico: https://geoffg.net/picomite.html m On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 9:06 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 9:24 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: So you're suggesting that it takes more components to detect what character my computer has sent than there are in the rest of the computer? -tony