16 May
2023
16 May
'23
8:12 a.m.
As you know I've recently restored a couple of CP/M luggable
computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives,
3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8"
The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop
runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports.
I would like to be able to :
Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them
to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes
If possble, for the more common filesystems like MS-DOS or CP/M, be
able to work with these images on the modern PC at the file level. For
example, if I download a CP/M progam as a .COM file I'd like to be
able to put it into a disk image of a Philips P2000C disk, then
transfer that image to a real floppy and put it in a drive on the
Philips machine.
I understand there are designed based on a modern microcontroller that
connecct to a USB port and a disk drive. Software on the PC translates
between the disk image and the accurately-timed pulses corresponding
to flux transitions on the disk. This unit links to a real disk drive,
you run the software and it reads/writes a real disk in said disk
drive.
Now... I can handle a 'scope. I can handle a logic analyser. I can
handle a soldering iron. I can handle an engineer's lathe. I can
rebuld and align floppy disk drives. I can program most 8-bit micros
along with PERQ microcode, PDP11 mahine code, etc BUT I don't have a
clue when it comes to modern PCs, modern microcontrollers or USB
ports.
So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in :
Buy this microcontroller board
Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in the BOM to it.
Download this software and install it by doing this.
Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector
Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit back.
-tony
16 May
16 May
8:21 a.m.
On May 16, 2023, at 11:12 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
As you know I've recently restored a couple of CP/M luggable
computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives,
3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8"
The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop
runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports.
I would like to be able to :
Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them
to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes
...
So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in :
Buy this microcontroller board ...
My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a dual drive if
possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, use the "fdparm"
tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the image with "dd".
Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precisely, I usually do
it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file systems so I can
manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 interleaving and how to issue
the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format.
paul
18 May
18 May
12:01 p.m.
My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a dual drive if
possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, use the "fdparm"
tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the image with "dd".
Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precisely, I usually
do it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file systems so I can
manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 interleaving and how to issue
the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format.
paul
My views exactly.
I’ve had great experiences with a PIII Dell GX1. I’m most comfortable in a Windows
enviroment, and have found both PUTR, for DOS, and Omniflop for Windows NT, to be
perfectly suitable for writing disk images. PUTR is mainly for DEC
As for loading in/loading out files from images, there’s likely at least something out
there you can make use of. Even if there’s no host OS native software for writing directly
to images, there’s almost certainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that can
later be written to real hardware disks.
Ultimately, there are ways and means to do this, but ultimately an older PC with a real
floppy controller is by large the easiest way.
Josh
12:08 p.m.
On May 18, 2023, at 3:01 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
This is why I avoid MS products. They don't offer stuff like that, which on Unix is a
perfectly normal operation available via dd or other ways.
paul
My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a standard PC floppy drive (a dual drive if
possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support). Then run Linux, use the "fdparm"
tool to set the media format if necessary, and copy the image with "dd".
Roughly speaking this is how I read and write RX50 floppies. More precisely, I usually
do it with my "rstsflx" tool, which (a) understands RSTS file systems so I can
manipulate things at that level, and (b) knows about RX50 interleaving and how to issue
the ioctl that sets 10 sector per track format.
paul
My views exactly.
I’ve had great experiences with a PIII Dell GX1. I’m most comfortable in a Windows
enviroment, and have found both PUTR, for DOS, and Omniflop for Windows NT, to be
perfectly suitable for writing disk images. PUTR is mainly for DEC
As for loading in/loading out files from images, there’s likely at least something out
there you can make use of. Even if there’s no host OS native software for writing directly
to images, there’s almost certainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that can
later be written to real hardware disks. 
2:44 p.m.
On 5/18/2023 2:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
cygwin has always been my friend on Wintel boxes. dd available there
and works just fine. WSL can also be used, but cygwin has served me
fine so far.
I guess, given the thread title, I should shamelessly plug that all of
you with latent Commodore 8 bit disk images can use ZoomFloppy via a
15X1/or PET drive and a USB connection to put those images onto disks.
Grab one now from the store!
Jim
As for loading in/loading out files from images,
there’s likely at
least something out there you can make use of. Even if there’s no
host OS native software for writing directly to images, there’s
almost certainly an emulator, which would work off disk images that
can later be written to real hardware disks.
This is why I avoid MS products.
They don't offer stuff like that, which on Unix is a perfectly normal operation
available via dd or other ways. 
12:09 p.m.
My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a
standard PC floppy drive
(a dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support).
Hmmm.
a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs.
with sneaker-net of thumb drives to:
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy
drives.
THEN, the entire collection of fun machines.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
1:46 p.m.
On May 18, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
That would work but it doesn't need to be quite that old. My floppy-writing machine
is a Gateway Pentium machine, with Ethernet, running Linux. So when I need stuff
transferred I just scp it to that machine, then run whatever tool I need to do the
transfer (rstsflx or dd, depending on what I'm manipulating).
paul
My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a
standard PC floppy drive (a dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support).
Hmmm.
a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs.
with sneaker-net of thumb drives to:
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy drives. 
3:36 p.m.
On Thu, 18 May 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
My imaging system hs an Abit KV8PRO motherboard, with an Athlon CPU,
onboard 10/100/1000 ethernet, 1 AGP 8X/4X slot, 5 PCI slots, SATA and IDE
drive support, 4 USB ports, and a SCSI card. The onboard floppy controller
will handle all formats except 128 byte/sector MFM. I haven't run across
anything yet that uses that format. I run either Linux or FreeDOS on the
system, depending on which tools I need. Dave Dunfield's IMD tools work great
under FreeDOS, and I use Linux to transfer files in and out of the system.
Mike Loewen mloewen(a)cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
On May 18, 2023, at 3:09 PM, Fred Cisin via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
That would work but it doesn't need to be quite that old. My floppy-writing
machine is a Gateway Pentium machine, with Ethernet, running Linux. So when
I need stuff transferred I just scp it to that machine, then run whatever
tool I need to do the transfer (rstsflx or dd, depending on what I'm
manipulating). My advice: buy an old desktop computer. Buy a
standard PC floppy drive (a dual drive if possible to give both 3.5 and 5.25 support).
Hmmm.
a modern laptop for connecting to the interwebs.
with sneaker-net of thumb drives to:
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB), with floppy drives.
4:47 p.m.
On Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
The idea's the same. What I'm a bit
surprised about is that there has
been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be
that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of
microcode.
That is exactly what I want. Fully transparent.
Full implementation of INT13h, 1Eh
plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track,
and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk.
And, it would be nice to have it packaged as internal, with 34 pin drive
connector and provision for a DC37,
external dongle, with DC37
External in housing with dual 1.4M/1.2M drive, plus a DC37
5:52 p.m.
On 5/18/23 16:47, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Well, maybe someone will do that for you, but not me. It's probably
doable, but I'm snowed under with work right now.
I'm looking forward to tinkering with some designs using RISC-V MCUs
(that's pronouced "risk-five" if you were wondering). Completely open
architecture and, from the benchmarks I've seen, pretty darned fast.
--Chuck
The idea's the same. What I'm a bit
surprised about is that there has
been no emulation of a generic floppy controller offered. It can't be
that complex; if I recall correctly the NEC 765 only used 1100 words of
microcode.
That is exactly what I want. Fully transparent.
Full implementation of INT13h, 1Eh
plus the added functions of read/write a flux transition track,
and simple command line software for image/write image of entire disk.
And, it would be nice to have it packaged as internal, with 34 pin drive
connector and provision for a DC37, 
19 May
19 May
4:36 a.m.
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB)
Hang on a minute.
[1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly horribly slow.
Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release.
[2] I don't think I ever heard of a 386 with USB, or a 386. with PCI
slots to add a USB card.
[3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_
and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This
needed a driver on original 98.
However it 100% definitely was _not_ the 1st ver with USB 1 support.
That was Win95 OSR2, a.k.a. Win95B, in about 1996.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
5:42 a.m.
On Fri, May 19, 2023, 4:36 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
[3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_
and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This
needed a driver on original 98.
[4] Microsoft didn't add USB 2.0 support until Windows XP SP1. That USB 2.0
support was also back ported to Windows 2000 SP 4. Microsoft never added
USB 2.0 support to Windows 98SE or Windows Me.
[5] Microsoft first added USB mass storage support to Windows 2000. That
was back ported to the original Windows Me release, but never to Windows
98SE.
[6] Any USB 2.0 support on Windows 98SE or Me would have been provided by
third-parties, same with any USB mass storage support on Windows 98SE.
7:12 a.m.
On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 13:42, Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, May 19, 2023, 4:36 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
https://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000603.htm
I I think that Windows ME had USB 2 at launch. Not sure. ME did
support FireWire which cost me quite a lot of money on one job because
I did not realise that was a difference between ME & 98 SE.
[3] Win98SE was, I _think_, maybe the first version to support USB _2_
and maybe the first version with USB key support as standard. This
needed a driver on original 98.
[4] Microsoft didn't add USB 2.0 support until Windows XP SP1. That USB 2.0
support was also back ported to Windows 2000 SP 4. Microsoft never added
USB 2.0 support to Windows 98SE or Windows Me. [5] Microsoft first added USB mass storage support to
Windows 2000. That
was back ported to the original Windows Me release, but never to Windows
98SE.
Happy to accept that. It was easily added via any number of
third-party drivers though. These were commonly available and in the
early days of USB memory keys, it was not unusual for them to come
with a floppy with Windows 9x driver.
[6] Any USB 2.0 support on Windows 98SE or Me would have been provided by
third-parties, same with any USB mass storage support on Windows 98SE.
For windows 98, that sounds very plausible. For Windows ME, I think it
was built in.
My apologies for poor capitalisation etc– I am dictating these
responses into my Mac as I have a broken right arm.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
9 a.m.
On Fri, May 19, 2023, 7:12 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
I I think that Windows ME had USB 2 at launch.
That would have been impossible.
Windows 2000 RTM date was December 15, 1999.
Windows Me RTM date was June 19, 2000.
Windows XP RTM date was August 24, 2001.
The Intel Enhanced Host Controller Interface (EHCI) specification revision
1.0 is dated March 12, 2002, almost 2 years after Windows Me RTM.
Windows XP SP1 was released on September 9, 2002, which was the first time
Microsoft released any USB 2.0 support.
Windows 2000 SP4 was released on June 26, 2003, which is when Microsoft
released USB 2.0 support ported back to Windows 2000.
At that point in time Windows Me was essentially dead and had been for a
while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port
USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me.
2:57 p.m.
On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 17:00, Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
The Intel Enhanced Host Controller Interface (EHCI) specification revision
1.0 is dated March 12, 2002, almost 2 years after Windows Me RTM.
Windows XP SP1 was released on September 9, 2002, which was the first time
Microsoft released any USB 2.0 support.
Windows 2000 SP4 was released on June 26, 2003, which is when Microsoft
released USB 2.0 support ported back to Windows 2000.
I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an
assortment of service packs, IE installers, etc. and it was sooooooo
slow to copy W2K SP4 onto a machine -- until you had SP4 installed...
At that point in time Windows Me was essentially dead
and had been for a
while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port
USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me.
OK, fair enough. I concede.
I stand by the 95 stuff, though.
95/95A: FAT16 only, no USB.
95B: FAT32, USB, no IE4, no standard upgrade path.
95C: USB + IE4.
98 onwards: USB as standard; upgrades from 95 supported.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
3:39 p.m.
On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key
with an
assortment of service packs, IE installers, etc. and it was sooooooo
slow to copy W2K SP4 onto a machine -- until you had SP4 installed...
Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history.
I remember, now, having a Swiss Army knife that had a small thumb drive in
it, and having to load a driver into my mother's "e-Machine" Pentium
Win98SE machine to copy my files to hers.
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB",
and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
I still suggest the possibility of a current machine for the interwebs,
with thumb drive sneaker-net to an alder machine with USB and floppies.
Tony already experienced one of the complications with trying to have more
than one add-on device on the same machine.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
At that point in time Windows Me was essentially
dead and had been for a
while. No one at Microsoft was interested in the effort required to port
USB 2.0 support back to Windows Me.
OK, fair enough. I concede.
I stand by the 95 stuff, though.
95/95A: FAT16 only, no USB.
95B: FAT32, USB, no IE4, no standard upgrade path.
95C: USB + IE4.
98 onwards: USB as standard; upgrades from 95 supported.
20 May
20 May
4:21 a.m.
On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 23:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
;-)
I do remember that, because I carried around a
USB key with an
Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history.
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB",
and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
I was startled to discover my (long gone) Athlon XP box could only
handle a single floppy drive. The BIOS has no option for a 2nd.
I can't imagine that was a significant cost saving.
I still suggest the possibility of a current machine
for the interwebs,
with thumb drive sneaker-net to an alder machine with USB and floppies.
Concur.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
7:25 a.m.
On 5/20/23 04:21, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
I was startled to discover my (long gone) Athlon XP
box could only
handle a single floppy drive. The BIOS has no option for a 2nd.
I can't imagine that was a significant cost saving.
It's a matter of pins. I believe that it started when the "SuperIO"
chip started packing in more support for various peripheral functions
and the 2 pins for drive select and motor control of an extra drive were
viewed as least important. Earlier versions of the chip often allowed
re-purposing the pins used for the parallel port as an interface for an
extra floppy--you saw this on laptop systems, which often had only one
floppy drive in any case. cf. Intel's PCISet chip sets.
--Chuck
22 May
22 May
2:38 a.m.
On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:22 PM Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 23:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working
condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them. I am not sure I
would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. And
of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it
Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
worth.
Then there's the problem of keeping it going. It's not a PERQ :-) I
realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement
modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
And of course no documentation. At least the Greaseweazle is
open-source which is better than nothing.
And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive.
Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a
machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
-tony
On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
;-)
I do remember that, because I carried around a
USB key with an
Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history.
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB",
and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
5:14 a.m.
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
I forgot whom I was dealing with.
I am not sure I
would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web.
That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand.
And
of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it
This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think.
Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I
don't drive.
Neither did I when I lived in the UK.
I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply
bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle.
Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that
flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I
carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a
backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and
that is a big 27" screen, too.
I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category.
I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an
insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your
backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people
stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered."
Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up,
then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient
Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is
*more* convenient.
Then there's the problem of keeping it going.
Who said you had to? Nobody.
But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem solved.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
8:53 a.m.
I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to trying to help
someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless
reasons why your suggestions won't work.
Sellam
On Mon, May 22, 2023, 6:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
I forgot whom I was dealing with.
I am not sure I
would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web.
That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand.
And
of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it
This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think.
Next there's the problem of me getting it
home. I don't drive.
Neither did I when I lived in the UK.
I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply
bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle.
Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that
flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I
carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a
backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and
that is a big 27" screen, too.
I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category.
I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an
insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your
backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people
stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered."
Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up,
then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient
Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is
*more* convenient.
Then there's the problem of keeping it
going.
Who said you had to? Nobody.
But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem
solved.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
11:36 a.m.
On 5/22/2023 11:53 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of
time to trying to help
someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless
reasons why your suggestions won't work.
We used to call this "Asks for advice, argues with respondents.
Meanwhile does anyone know if it's possible to install older versions of
MicroRSTS using a single RX33 floppy? I'm testing these images and while
the xxdp+ one works fine the MicroRSTS disk 1 starts to load, gets to
track 15 (I love GoTeks) then the system stops. However the system does
throw a "Starting system" message so it is reading the bootstrap.
I'll hook up another FlashFloppy, but was wondering if it's just looking
for a second disk on the "second" RX50 to finish boot.
C
24 May
24 May
2:03 a.m.
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:03 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/22/2023 11:53 AM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
I have a different term for it. I call it 'being sensible'
I feel it is very foolish to accept a piece of advice -- or any other
information -- without questioning it. I have, alas, made that mistake
too many times myself already and try to avoid doing so again.
-tony
I learned a long time ago that it's a waste
of time to trying to help
someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless
reasons why your suggestions won't work.
We used to call this "Asks for advice, argues with respondents.
22 May
22 May
1:49 p.m.
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell
<ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
> And
> of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
> certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
> writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
> be able to test it before I buy it
On Mon, 22 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era,
I think.
Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't.
Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled that
capability. It is available on only SOME implementations.
Dave Dunfield wrote a small test program tocheck for FM/SD compatability.
2:25 p.m.
On 5/22/23 13:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density
(FM) reading and
writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't.
Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled
that capability. It is available on only SOME implementations.
Another can/can't is formatting and writing disks with 128 byte MFM
sectoring. The National Semi DP8473 is one that can do both (FM and 128
byte MFM). Curiously, it's late P3 and P4 motherboard systems that
have the best track record for this.
However, Intel was not a leader in this department. The original 82077
FDC could handle FM just fine, but the later 82077AA-1 could not. When
I brought this issue up to Intel applications engineering, the response
was "So--who needs FM in this day and age?" Fortunately, the
pin-compatible NSC PC8477 retained the FM capability. I recall when
Micro Solutions recalled a run of their CompatiCard IV controllers with
the 82077AA-1 controllers and replaced the chips wit the National ones.
SMSC SuperIO chips have a pretty good record in this matter.
--Chuck
3:13 p.m.
Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> writes:
Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density
(FM) reading and
writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't.
For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a
fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification.
-tih
--
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay
3:53 p.m.
On 5/22/23 15:13, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote:
Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
writes:
That's a real NSC DP8473 or a clone of it. You can often find the same
chip on Future Domain cwell-ontrollers as well as DTC ones as well some
Ultrastor ones What's not known, is that with a simple jumper, a
2-drive controller can be changed to a 3 drive one (on the same cable).
Both Ultrastor and DTC documented the 3-drive cable, but Adaptec and
Future Domain never did. FWOW the 8473 in it's PLCC incarnation is
fully capable of directly driving four floppies.
Bitsavers even has a datasheet on the 4-drive capability in a PC-AT:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/national/_dataSheets/DP8473/AN-631_Desi…
Another tidbit is the Micro Solutions Backpack floppy with parallel port
interface uses the 8473 and even has a configuration EEPROM to track 4
drives. The interface supports low-level hardware control. Some
years ago, I even published the source to a driver for the thing on
VCFed. I'm sure that it's been lost in the mists of time, however; VCF
has lost a lot of content over the years.
--Chuck
Unfortunately, the ability to handle
single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't.
For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a
fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification.
23 May
23 May
2:52 a.m.
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 2:14 PM Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > And
> > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
> > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
> > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
> > be able to test it before I buy it
> This is a normal ability for a machine of
the 486 era, I think.
Not in my experience (back in the day). I had no end of problems with
friends' PCs handling single-density disks.
> > I'll go
> > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
> > want. An PC is not in that category.
> I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in
context, it is adding an
> insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your
> backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people
> stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered."
I did not call you stupid. I called the suggestion stupid. Which I
still consider it to be.
I can be bothered. I could be bothered to design the darn thing from
scratch, actually, which would probably take less time.
> > Not to mention the fact that I
> > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
> Why would you have to? Who said you did?
Nobody. You made this up,
> then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth.
My experience is that most sellers, if selling a complete system, want
the whole lot gone in one go. They do not want multiple visits to pick
it up a bit at a time.
And if the machine is not near me then fares quickly mount up if you
have to make several trips.
One other point I forgot is the size of such a machine. I don't have
space for one. My house is not large and it's filled with things that
interest me -- like classic computers, tools, electronic test gear,
books, etc.
> > Having it sent to me is inconvenient
> Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days
is mail order because it is
> *more* convenient.
Obviously you know my life better than I do.
Having parcels delivered is inconvenient. I do have things to do that
require me to be out of the house at certain times. I can't be in at a
particular time necessarily. And many of the jobs I do can't be
stopped because the doorbell rings. You try assembling a mechanism
with tiny parts, many spring-loaded, and having to stop mid-way. It
doesn't work.
Don't tell me that the delivery company will give the time/date the
parcel will be delivered. Such information is totally inaccurate in my
experience.
-tony
2:27 p.m.
Tony,
You are extraordinarily tedious.
Sellam
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:52 AM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 2:14 PM Liam Proven via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > And
> > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
> > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
> > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
> > be able to test it before I buy it
> This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think.
Not in my experience (back in the day). I had no end of problems with
friends' PCs handling single-density disks.
> > I'll go
> > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
> > want. An PC is not in that category.
> I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an
> insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your
> backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people
> stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered."
I did not call you stupid. I called the suggestion stupid. Which I
still consider it to be.
I can be bothered. I could be bothered to design the darn thing from
scratch, actually, which would probably take less time.
> > Not to mention the fact that I
> > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
> Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up,
> then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth.
My experience is that most sellers, if selling a complete system, want
the whole lot gone in one go. They do not want multiple visits to pick
it up a bit at a time.
And if the machine is not near me then fares quickly mount up if you
have to make several trips.
One other point I forgot is the size of such a machine. I don't have
space for one. My house is not large and it's filled with things that
interest me -- like classic computers, tools, electronic test gear,
books, etc.
> > Having it sent to me is inconvenient
> Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is
> *more* convenient.
Obviously you know my life better than I do.
Having parcels delivered is inconvenient. I do have things to do that
require me to be out of the house at certain times. I can't be in at a
particular time necessarily. And many of the jobs I do can't be
stopped because the doorbell rings. You try assembling a mechanism
with tiny parts, many spring-loaded, and having to stop mid-way. It
doesn't work.
Don't tell me that the delivery company will give the time/date the
parcel will be delivered. Such information is totally inaccurate in my
experience.
-tony
22 May
22 May
9:25 a.m.
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this
is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a
"386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. The first problem is finding such a machine in
known-working
condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them.
Don't they have eBay where you live?
...
And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it.
I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the
functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy.
Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I
don't drive. I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
worth.
Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive,
again, have you heard of eBay?
Then there's the problem of keeping it going.
Why do I not have this problem? Keeping *anything* going, even our
own bodies, is always a "problem."
I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But
replacement
modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before
even trying? All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY. A VGA
monitor is NOT a challenge.
And drives. It was suggested that I get a double
5.25"/3.5" drive.
Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k
drive when needed.
And I am not sure the software exists to do what I
want on such a
machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
Such software probably does exist. If someone has had the same need,
then it's been done.
10:10 a.m.
Thia is a good place to start
http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/index.cfm. from here there are two
complete how-to docs, software and images.
Bill
On Mon, May 22, 2023, 12:30 PM js--- via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous
suggestion of a "386 98,SP2
desktop
with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion
with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
The first problem is finding such a machine in
known-working
condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them.
Don't they have eBay where you live?
...
And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it.
I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the
functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy.
Next there's the problem of me getting it
home. I don't drive. I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
worth.
Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive,
again, have you heard of eBay?
Then there's the problem of keeping it
going.
Why do I not have this problem? Keeping *anything* going, even our
own bodies, is always a "problem."
I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium.
But replacement
modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before
even trying? All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY. A VGA
monitor is NOT a challenge.
And drives. It was suggested that I get a double
5.25"/3.5" drive.
Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k
drive when needed.
And I am not sure the software exists to do what
I want on such a
machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
Such software probably does exist. If someone has had the same need,
then it's been done.
11:09 a.m.
On 5/22/2023 11:25 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
Hehe, I chuckled. I have such a machine (triple boot, DOS, Windows,
Linux) PII sitting here that used to be my primary machine (hand built
from cheap parts at the old Omaha, NE monthly computer show), no eBay
needed. Machine does not get a lot of use anymore, but it fires right
up when needed.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
23 May
23 May
2:41 a.m.
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25 PM js(a)cimmeri.com <js(a)cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I am sorry, but I think this
is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the
flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would
seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive
[1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats. Is it that such devices
don't work, or what? The Greaseweazle has schematics, firmware source
and application source all available (OK I don't know python but would
be happy to spend time learning that if need be) and thus would seem
to be easier to keep going than some unknown PC.
[1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector disks? There
seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed
as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored
disks this is not really an issue.
[...]
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a
"386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases. I wouldn't worry about the built in disk
controller. You can add the
functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy.
Which AFAIK is no longer made and not necessarily available.
Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive,
again, have you heard of eBay?
Well,, I need a monitor so I can see I've typed the command correctly,
use a GUI (if that's what the OS uses) and see error messages. I need
a keyboard to type the commands, and indeed to satisfy the POST of
most such machines.
I do not have such things around. Very few of my computers are PCs.
-tony
6:21 a.m.
On May 23, 2023, at 5:41 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25 PM js(a)cimmeri.com <js(a)cimmeri.com> wrote:
Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such as the one I
wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it offers another option that is
easy. It would also be a particularly convenient choice for anyone who already has such a
system sitting in the closet, or can get his hands on one easily.
While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a requirement for one
yet, and unless at some point in the future I do, chances are I'll just stick with my
existing off the shelf PC.
paul
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the
flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would
seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive
[1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats. > I
hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
I am sorry, but I think this
is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
24 May
24 May
2:12 a.m.
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 2:21 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
Given that conditional, this make a lot of sense. But the statement
was originally made without the conditonal.
In my first message I pointed out that I had 2 classes of computers .
Classic computers which have floppy drives of various sizes but not
USB ports. And this modern-ish laptop which has USB ports and no
floppy drive.
I think this sort-of implies I don't have an old-ish PC tucked away
somewhere with USB ports and a floppy controller.
I do seriously
wonder why nobody has been suggesting the
flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would
seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive
[1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats.
Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such as the one I
wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it offers another option that is
easy. It would also be a particularly convenient choice for anyone who already has such a
system sitting in the closet, or can get his hands on one easily.
While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a requirement for
one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do, chances are I'll just stick with
my existing off the shelf PC.
Sure, if you've got a solution that works for you, use it.
In terms of bying something now, you can get a Greaseweazle in the UK
for about £25.00 including postage. I suspect that getting an old PC
would cost more than that -- the hardware may be cheaper, but getting
it home won't be. And I can see disadvantages to using such a machine.
But other that an Apple-based solution which is not applicable to me,
I've not seen any messages here on the pros and cons of the various
flux transition devices.
-tony
5:53 p.m.
I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I
think we're being a little hard on Tony, especially considering the many
contributions he's made to our hobby over the years with reverse-engineered
schematics and other obscure documentation.
If there weren't so much water between us I'd happily drop off a small
form-factor vintage PC that'd probably serve to extract/archive/whatever
numerous diskette formats with the various format conversion programs of
the day.
But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good
luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience!
m
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 9:21 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I do seriously wonder why nobody has been suggesting the
flux-transition type of device. If it can be got to work then it would
seem the ideal solution in that it can handle anything the disk drive
[1] can handle, including non FM/MFM formats.
Sure it is likely to work. But the point of the other suggestions, such
as the one I wrote saying just to use a stock floppy drive, is that it
offers another option that is easy. It would also be a particularly
convenient choice for anyone who already has such a system sitting in the
closet, or can get his hands on one easily.
While those flux widgets have at times tempted me, I haven't had a
requirement for one yet, and unless at some point in the future I do,
chances are I'll just stick with my existing off the shelf PC.
paul
On May 23, 2023, at 5:41 AM, Tony Duell via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25 PM js(a)cimmeri.com <js(a)cimmeri.com> wrote:
>
> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
>>>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2
desktop
>>>> with floppies and USB", and
replace my suggestion with:
>>>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage
to
use.
> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably
suggest some box with from
> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
11:37 p.m.
In message <CAHHfo1smXQ7GHFLDPDbaqOznFgC8TX9+ZckS207nPSaYs2M7cQ(a)mail.gmail
.com>
Mike Stein via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than
many of us ;-) ), but I
think we're being a little hard on Tony, especially considering the many
contributions he's made to our hobby over the years with reverse-engineered
schematics and other obscure documentation.
If there weren't so much water between us I'd happily drop off a small
form-factor vintage PC that'd probably serve to extract/archive/whatever
numerous diskette formats with the various format conversion programs of
the day.
But it sounds like he'll explore one of the flux-transition gizmos; good
luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience!
m
I also looked for a unique way to preserve data from old floppies.
By now my equipment has grown and grown.
Two old PC/ATs with different operating systems and different
controlers incl. one catweasel MK4.
Beside this stands a separate housing with different floppy drives
and own power supply.
For softsectored floppies that is enough gear, but meanwhile i came
across some hardsectored ones.
I bought a kryoflux with little, not to say no success on hardsecored
disks.
Now i have the Fluxteen here and i support the developer where i can.
We managed writing hardsectored floppy for the Smaky 6, a swiss made
computer.
Things are going on if we all support him. At the moment he is
implementing Apple II formats.
I think this system a worth a closer look.
Rolf
--
25 May
25 May
4:52 a.m.
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 1:54 AM Mike Stein via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I
I am not 'a bit eccentric'. There is absolutely nothing mild about my
eccentricities!
But it sounds like he'll explore one of the
flux-transition gizmos; good
luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience!
I've got a Greaseweazle V4 now. I haven't got the software working yet
and I am treading carefully as an early attempt managed to mangle the
drivers for my USB-RS232 cable which I depend on for a lot of work but
I suspect I will get it working in the end and it will do what I need.
At least it's open-source so I can read the software source code
(maybe I'll have to learn Python). And I have schematics.
What is odd is how many things were _not_ suggested. For example :
A RPi can read files off a USB stick. Hang a floppy controller chip,
possibly with buffer RAM, off the user port connector of one of those.
Come up with a parallel interface between an RPi user port and
ISAbus. Use that to transfer the disk images to a classic PC and go
from there.
It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have
10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall
back to that. So use that to transfer the disk image. A disk image is
almost certainly less than a megabyte for a classic machine, so it
won't take long.
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
CF cards are essentially the same interface as PATA (IDE) disk drives.
Go from there.
Just about any of those would have been easier and more likely to use
bits from my junk box/computer collection than trying to get an old,
but not too old, PC
-tony
7:55 a.m.
On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
That's my approach with my own setups. 32GB SD cards are very
inexpensive and quite fast. So, rather than depend on a USB interface
to transfer data real-time to a PC, I use the SD card as intermediate
storage, later transferring the data off using either a card reader or
YModem-1K via serial port or USB. The side benefit is that the SD card
is large enough that I'll have a hard time filling it with things like
floppy images over the next few years--so I've got an automatic backup.
USB (or serial) is used mostly for commands and status (TTY emulator)
and can be run from a cheap tablet. The MCU I use does have ethernet
support, but I've found that to be unnecessary--the data volume isn't
that great.
For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and
plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in.
I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do.
I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been
cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or
40 years ago and still be able to read it.
I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how
quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded
coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today?
It's not that I resist technological change--I can and have written C++
and Python (what version?). On my desk sits a MicroPy board. I look
forward to advances in technology, but I'm also aware of how "bleeding
edge" trends can wither and get lost almost overnight. How many of you
program in Zig?
I imagine that in about 5 years, the main conversation will be about
using an AI to write code. Of course, there will be a new language to
instruct the AI...
--Chuck
8:58 a.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/25/23 07:55, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and
plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in.
I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do.
I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been
cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or
40 years ago and still be able to read it.
That's basically what I do too. It's too easy to get stuck with an
unsupported environment. A text editor and makefiles mean that I can
(generally) port my code over to any new environment fairly easily.
I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how
quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded
coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today?
ADA and SPARK (a stripped down
version of ADA) are used heavily in
embedded that has to be "safety certified". SPARK also allows the code
to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the
code does what you say it does). Ask me how I know. ;-)
--
TTFN - Guy
10 a.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/25/23 08:58, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
ADA and SPARK (a stripped down version of ADA) are used heavily in
embedded that has to be "safety certified". SPARK also allows the code
to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the
code does what you say it does). Ask me how I know. ;-)
I was aware of Ada's requirements in the defense- and aerospace-related
industry. Is that where your experience lies? Is SPARK the "magic
bullet" that's been searched for decades to write provably correct code?
Now, let's hear from the Nim, Zig...etc. enthusiasts. There's a YT
video that claims that Zig code execution is faster than assembly.
Exactly how does that work?
--Chuck
10:06 a.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/25/23 10:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/23 08:58, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
I'm familiar with it from the higher end automotive perspective
(self-driving cars). Even when using C/C++ we have *lots* of standards
that we have to adhere to (MISRA, CERT-C, ISO-26262, etc).
The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
--
TTFN - Guy
ADA and SPARK (a stripped down version of ADA)
are used heavily in
embedded that has to be "safety certified". SPARK also allows the code
to be "proven" (as in you can write formal proofs to ensure that the
code does what you say it does). Ask me how I know. ;-)
I was aware of Ada's
requirements in the defense- and aerospace-related
industry. Is that where your experience lies? Is SPARK the "magic
bullet" that's been searched for decades to write provably correct code?
12:30 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
The way SPARK works is that you have code and then can
also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
--Chuck
1:02 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
Just wondering what's marking Guy's posts with ***SPAM***. It's
beginning to look like a Monty Python sketch.
--Chuck
1:21 p.m.
On May 25, 2023, at 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Yes. The problem is the gap between informal understanding and formal description. For
many programmers, that gap occurs when the program source is created. If the programs are
subjected to formal proofs, the gap occurs when the formal specs are written.
So such things are largely a non-solution. They may help a little if the gap to the
formal spec is smaller. If, as Guy is saying, the formal spec is larger than the code,
then obviously that won't be the case.
Languages other than C and C++ have advantages in that they detect, or avoid, a whole lot
of bugs that C/C++ ignore, like bounds violations or memory leaks. So Ada can be helpful
in that some bugs are harder or impossible to create, or more likely to be detected in
testing. But, in spite of having taken a very interesting week-long course on program
proofs by pioneer E.W. Dijkstra, I don't actually believe in those things.
The 737MAX is a classic example of designers turning off their brains before doing their
work. It is obvious even to me (who have never created safety-sensitive software) that
you don't attach systems with single points of failure such as non-replicated sensors
to a control system whose specific purpose is to point the airplane nose DOWN. If you do
your work with your brain disabled you can't produce correct software, with or without
formal proofs.
paul
The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
--Chuck
2:32 p.m.
On 5/25/23 13:21, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
In our particular case, we spend about 10x developing all of the
"safety" collateral (requirement docs, architecture docs, design docs,
etc) than actually writing, debugging and testing the code.
Part of the problem is that most of the automotive safety standards were
developed for fairly simple use cases (1000s to a few 10's of 1000s
lines of code). In our particular case, we're looking at 10's of
millions of lines of code and we've discovered that a lot of the
processes specified by the standards do not scale well to that level of
code. :-/
On May 25, 2023, at 3:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Yes. The problem is the gap between informal understanding and formal
description. For many programmers, that gap occurs when the program source is created.
If the programs are subjected to formal proofs, the gap occurs when the formal specs are
written.
So such things are largely a non-solution. They may help a little if the gap to the
formal spec is smaller. If, as Guy is saying, the formal spec is larger than the code,
then obviously that won't be the case. The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing
737MAX...
--Chuck Languages other than C and C++ have advantages in that
they detect, or avoid, a whole lot of bugs that C/C++ ignore, like bounds violations or
memory leaks. So Ada can be helpful in that some bugs are harder or impossible to create,
or more likely to be detected in testing. But, in spite of having taken a very
interesting week-long course on program proofs by pioneer E.W. Dijkstra, I don't
actually believe in those things.
I don't either. ;-) Proofs are *hard* and
take a special way of
thinking about the problem. For example, prove that a doubly linked
list points only to elements allowed in the linked list (e.g. things
that have only been placed on the list) and that the forward and
backward pointers actually point to the elements they're supposed
to...and that's one of the simpler things that needs to be proved. It
gets *really* interesting when you try and prove that the scheduler is
actually scheduling the way it's supposed to. :-/
The 737MAX is a classic example of designers turning off their brains before doing their
work. It is obvious even to me (who have never created safety-sensitive software) that
you don't attach systems with single points of failure such as non-replicated sensors
to a control system whose specific purpose is to point the airplane nose DOWN. If you do
your work with your brain disabled you can't produce correct software, with or without
formal proofs.
Yes, in self-driving cars we do "sensor fusion" which
allows us to
derive (and validate/replicate) data from various sensors. For example,
we use cameras, LIDAR, etc to validate each other's data. The point is
to not have a "single point of failure".
--
TTFN - Guy
1:38 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On Thu, 25 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
That wasn't a software problem, that was a criminally cheap management
problem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
1:43 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On May 25, 2023, at 4:38 PM, geneb via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, 25 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
So? We know managers often don't know engineering or reliability, that's why we
have engineers. It's not just the job of the engineer to follow orders; it's also
his job to make the right thing happen, and to complain if it isn't.
Engineers keeping quiet has been a key contributor in many spectacular failures, from the
737 MAX to the two Space Shuttle failures.
paul
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
wrote:
That wasn't a software problem, that was a criminally cheap management
problem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money. The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
3:43 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/25/23 13:38, geneb via cctalk wrote:
That wasn't a software problem, that was a
criminally cheap management
problem - they deleted the comparator for the AoA indexer to save money.
Yes, but probably not Boeing's. AoA disagree was an available option
that most /airlines/ explicitly elected not to purchase. Part of the AD
was requiring that system, plus limiting MCAS authority so that if you
hadn't noticed the trim wheel whacking you in the side of the leg you at
least couldn't get into a situation where it would take three people to
overpower the combined trim and aeroloading forces, and notably, sim
time to review trim runaway procedures. It's not reassuring how many
crews got trim runaway wrong in the sim.
AoA disagreement on the B737 is weird anyway. Each AoA sensor drives
one half of the cockpit stall avoidance systems, so the way you
typically tell that a sensor has failed is when the stick shaker on one
side starts going nuts while the other one doesn't.
Honestly, the biggest blame here probably belongs on the doorstep of
Southwest.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
3:29 p.m.
New subject: MCAS (was: Re: Re: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as
specified, and while one could have a discussion regarding if those
specifications were wrong, the logic was that a MCAS failure was
indistinguishable from any other 737 trim runaway and was to be handled
in the same fashion. Perhaps this is an example of Brooks' observation
that most bugs in software are in fact bugs in specification.
I can even sorta understand the thought processes behind the specs.
While there were two hull losses, there have been many, many, many more
MCAS failures; the only time they resulted in holes in the ground is
when the trim runaway procedures weren't followed -- that being a sort
of sobering thought given that there are all sorts of other things that
can lead to that happening beyond MCAS.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
4:34 p.m.
New subject: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it stops
crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been brought to us by
the PC and gaming culture.
In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports closed by the
engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they are only
permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the spec is right. I
would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference center stage and explain
to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right, you can't use 'works as
designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than in the code, but it's still a
bug. Fix it."
paul
...and we still get gems like the Boeing
737MAX...
I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as specified, and
while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications were wrong, the logic
was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any other 737 trim runaway and was to
be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps this is an example of Brooks' observation that
most bugs in software are in fact bugs in specification. 
27 May
27 May
1:48 p.m.
New subject: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 07:34:19PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs (my line of work)
we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves
exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong
thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy
via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it stops
crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been brought to us by
the PC and gaming culture.
In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports closed by the
engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they are only
permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the spec is right. I
would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference center stage and explain
to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right, you can't use 'works as
designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than in the code, but it's still a
bug. Fix it." ...and we still get gems like the Boeing
737MAX...
I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as specified, and
while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications were wrong, the logic
was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any other 737 trim runaway and was to
be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps this is an example of Brooks' observation that
most bugs in software are in fact bugs in specification. 
3:42 p.m.
New subject: MCAS
On 2023-05-27 2:48 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 07:34:19PM -0400, Paul Koning
via cctalk wrote:
Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs (my line of work)
we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves
exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong
thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions.
Kind regards,
Alex.
How do prove it with typo-graphical errors in the docs?
Ben.
On May 25, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Christian Kennedy
via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 5/25/23 12:30, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I'm not sure that observation is true anymore, with the "hack it until it stops
crashing" approach to software development that seems to have been brought to us by
the PC and gaming culture.
In my work (storage servers) I would from time to time see bug reports closed by the
engineer as "works as designed". I would remind them that they are only
permitted to say that if (a) the program matches the spec, AND (b) the spec is right. I
would say "if you're not able to stand on a conference center stage and explain
to an audience of 1000 customers why the spec is right, you can't use 'works as
designed'. The bug may be in the spec rather than in the code, but it's still a
bug. Fix it." ...and we still get gems like the Boeing
737MAX...
I get your point, but it's a bad example. MCAS worked precisely as specified, and
while one could have a discussion regarding if those specifications were wrong, the logic
was that a MCAS failure was indistinguishable from any other 737 trim runaway and was to
be handled in the same fashion. Perhaps this is an example of Brooks' observation that
most bugs in software are in fact bugs in specification.
28 May
28 May
2:25 a.m.
New subject: MCAS (was: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 10:00 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Which is why among the more cynic^Wexperienced SREs
(my line of work)
we sometimes use the term "Working As Implemented" when the code behaves
exactly as written (and ofteni as specified), but still does the wrong
thing because it (usually) was written with wrong assumptions.
I generally say 'Broken as designed' meaning it does what the design
says it should, but what the design specifies is stupid. I often say
that about bits of the ISA bus and things designed for it, for
example.
-tony
27 May
27 May
1:38 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:30:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
That was Working As Implemented. Turns out, if you change the way
the aircraft behaves under some conditions and you can't be bothered
to tell the pilots about it, bad things are eventually going to happen.
Bonus points for making safety related features extra-cost items
(so your cheaper airlines won't buy them, with predictable results).
Extra bonus points for having achieved regulatory capture and so
being allowed to handwave "It will be fine, trust us" the certifications.
One long term result is that European agencies learned to no longer
trust the FAA.
The root cause was that Boeing was trying to do things on the cheap,
going "This is still your fathers old 737, just a little spruced up"
when it was effectively a different plane - but admitting that would
have triggered lots of expensive things (certifications, pilot training
for a new aircraft, ...).
There are businesses where you can get away with being cheap and
there are types of business where a little extra profit will be
paid for with _someones_ blood.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX... 
3:28 p.m.
New subject: ***SPAM*** Re: ***SPAM*** Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 2023-05-27 16:38, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:30:52PM -0700, Chuck Guzis
via cctalk wrote:
I think you have hit the nail on the head there, Alex. not wanting to
cause airlines to analyse the cost of extra pilot training and thus
compare to the cost of equivalent Airbus product. I have a friend who
has a full 737 simulator in his house (no FO seat though) and he put me
through a trim runaway. Two toggle switches down on the engine quadrant
just disabled the system if the pilots knew what was happening!
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
On 5/25/23 10:06, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk
wrote:
That was Working As Implemented. Turns out, if you change the way
the aircraft behaves under some conditions and you can't be bothered
to tell the pilots about it, bad things are eventually going to happen.
Bonus points for making safety related features extra-cost items
(so your cheaper airlines won't buy them, with predictable results).
Extra bonus points for having achieved regulatory capture and so
being allowed to handwave "It will be fine, trust us" the certifications.
One long term result is that European agencies learned to no longer
trust the FAA.
The root cause was that Boeing was trying to do things on the cheap,
going "This is still your fathers old 737, just a little spruced up"
when it was effectively a different plane - but admitting that would
have triggered lots of expensive things (certifications, pilot training
for a new aircraft, ...).
There are businesses where you can get away with being cheap and
there are types of business where a little extra profit will be
paid for with _someones_ blood.
Kind regards,
Alex.
The way SPARK works is that you have code and
then can also provide
proofs for the code. Proofs are you might expect are *hard* to write
and in many cases are *huge* relative to the actual code (at least if
you want a platinum level proof).
...and we still get gems like the Boeing 737MAX...
25 May
25 May
9:13 a.m.
Chuck,
I agree with you that well written and commented C is the way to go.
The advantage to an IDE comes with debugging and easy access symbols and
variables.
I worked for Software Development Systems working on their Freeform
(text based) and Single Step (windows based) debuggers. Which gave me
an up close experience with both types of interfaces.
Over the years I have used printf and blinking LEDs for debugging but
the ability to put breakpoints and watchpoints in code is immeasurable.
I have used GCC/GDB and command line debuggers and yes typing "bp
0x1234 -r 6 -h" works quite well, however, double clicking on a line
also works quite well and can be a little faster/easier to use. Hover
over a variable to get it's value is also very convenient.
This is similar to the model editor (Vi) vs non-modal editor (emacs,
brief) debate. It comes down to personal preference.
I have been programing since 1972 and have worked on all types of
systems, compilers, assemblers, editors, IDE's, emulators, etc. And,
over the years, I have found what works best for me (for example, I
have been using the brief editor keyboard layout for over 30 years) and
that works best for me. However, I have gone from simple assemblers
without any debugging at all to full IDE's and TBH, for me, I find the
IDE easier to use than command line debugging tools.
The auto make generation that comes with IDE's is quite nice also.
I will admit to using gcc/gdb for simple C code development without
leaving the slickedit environment.
Mike
On 5/25/2023 9:55 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/25/23 04:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
That's my approach with my own setups. 32GB SD
cards are very
inexpensive and quite fast. So, rather than depend on a USB interface
to transfer data real-time to a PC, I use the SD card as intermediate
storage, later transferring the data off using either a card reader or
YModem-1K via serial port or USB. The side benefit is that the SD card
is large enough that I'll have a hard time filling it with things like
floppy images over the next few years--so I've got an automatic backup.
USB (or serial) is used mostly for commands and status (TTY emulator)
and can be run from a cheap tablet. The MCU I use does have ethernet
support, but I've found that to be unnecessary--the data volume isn't
that great.
For the programming language, I stick with C, not C++, not Python and
plain old makefiles--that's what the support libraries are written in.
I don't use an IDE, lest I become reliant on one--a text editor will do.
I document the heck out of code. Over the 50 or so years that I've been
cranking out gibberish, it's nice to go back to code that I wrote 30 or
40 years ago and still be able to read it.
I'm all too aware of the changing trends in the industry--and how
quickly they can change. I remember when there was a push in embedded
coding not long ago to use Ada--where is that today?
It's not that I resist technological change--I can and have written C++
and Python (what version?). On my desk sits a MicroPy board. I look
forward to advances in technology, but I'm also aware of how "bleeding
edge" trends can wither and get lost almost overnight. How many of you
program in Zig?
I imagine that in about 5 years, the main conversation will be about
using an AI to write code. Of course, there will be a new language to
instruct the AI...
--Chuck
12:13 p.m.
On 05/25/2023 11:13 AM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Chuck,
I agree with you that well written and commented C is the way to go.
The advantage to an IDE comes with debugging and easy access symbols and
variables.
Some IDEs can be convinced to use standard makefiles. I have used Eclipse that way. So
you still have fully buildable (and maintainable) code should an "upgrade" break
stuff or the tool becomes unavailable.
Eclipse is a a java dog and keeping it up to date between versions is a pain, but in my
experience the benefits Mike mentioned are well worth it.
Will
12:36 p.m.
On 5/25/23 12:13, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
Eclipse is a a java dog and keeping it up to date
between versions is a pain, but in my experience the benefits Mike mentioned are well
worth it.
For an editor, I use Joe--available on platforms from MSDOS to Linux X64
as well as Windows. It's basically a re-hash of WordStar, which goes
way back to the 8080 CP/M days.
Of course, current Joe knows some C syntax, does correct highlighting, etc.
About 40 years ago, I used emacs with the electric-C addon. It was okay.
I still code my makefiles by hand.
--Chuck
11:13 a.m.
On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 1:54 AM Mike Stein via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Would it be possible to build a small computer, 8088/8086
just for this?
I realize he's a bit eccentric, (even more so than many of us ;-) ), but I
I am not 'a bit eccentric'. There is absolutely nothing mild about my
eccentricities!
But it sounds like he'll explore one of the
flux-transition gizmos; good
luck, Tony, and I hope you enjoy the experience!
I've got a Greaseweazle V4 now. I haven't got the software working yet
and I am treading carefully as an early attempt managed to mangle the
drivers for my USB-RS232 cable which I depend on for a lot of work but
I suspect I will get it working in the end and it will do what I need.
At least it's open-source so I can read the software source code
(maybe I'll have to learn Python). And I have schematics.
What is odd is how many things were _not_ suggested. For example :
A RPi can read files off a USB stick. Hang a floppy controller chip,
possibly with buffer RAM, off the user port connector of one of those.
Come up with a parallel interface between an RPi user port and
ISAbus. Use that to transfer the disk images to a classic PC and go
from there.
It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have
10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall
back to that. So use that to transfer the disk image. A disk image is
almost certainly less than a megabyte for a classic machine, so it
won't take long.
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
CF cards are essentially the same interface as PATA (IDE) disk drives.
Go from there.
Just about any of those would have been easier and more likely to use
bits from my junk box/computer collection than trying to get an old,
but not too old, PC
-tony
11:47 a.m.
On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
...
It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have
10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall
back to that.
Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE devices will fall back not just to 100
but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards conformance, and from what I can tell
even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do this. Yes, including half duplex mode.
paul
3:47 p.m.
On 25/05/2023 19:47, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE
devices will fall back not just to 100 but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards
conformance, and from what I can tell even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do
this. Yes, including half duplex mode.
In ~1997 my ISP provided a Terajet 410 and that was very fussy about
what it would talk to; I couldn't get it to talk to my PC or laptop at
the time at 100MB/s ... in the end I just connected to it via a small
DEChub at 10MB/s and it worked perfectly.
Right now my motherboard has a 2.5GB/s ethernet port and it needed
poking with ethtool to autonegotiate at 1Gbps with a TP-LINK TL-SG116.
No idea why yet and I probably won't know until I have a chance to power
both off and prod.
So your statement about "correctly implemented GigE devices" is
technically correct (the best kind of 'correct'!) but I have yet to be
convinced that it's not describing the null set :-)
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio(a)acarlini.com
27 May
27 May
1:51 p.m.
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 02:47:06PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
On 2023-05-25 5:52 a.m., Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
Yup, had that happen on one of my machines with a 100 MBit/s NIC wired to
a GBit switch. It dropped all the way down to 10 MBit/s half-duplex and
still lost packets at a hilarious rate - because the cable had gone bad.
After replacing the cable it was back to 100 MBit/s.
But the point is: the GBit switch followed along all the way down to
10 MBit/s half-duplex "hey, if that's all you can do, fine", just as
the spec said it should.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
...
It is not unheard-of for classic PCs -- even ISAbus ones -- to have
10Mbps ethernet. Most, if not all, 100Mbps ethernet ports will fall
back to that.
Not only that, but all correctly implemented GigE devices will fall back not just to 100
but also to 10 Mb/s. That's part of standards conformance, and from what I can tell
even low cost devices like D-Link or Netgear do this. Yes, including half duplex mode.
27 May
27 May
12:13 p.m.
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the
appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic
PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a
laptop, I suppose.
Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement
processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of
different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / repairable?
Also, a passive ISA backplanes used to be fairly common. Mine has
(had?) a 486 [1], but I think there were pentium processor cards
available. I have no idea what your spares box might contribute in that
line, though.
Philip.
[1] I found the backplane in a recent clearout, but I can't remember
what cards it had in it.
11:17 p.m.
On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 8:47 PM philip--- via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one.
Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it shouldn't be too hard to make
pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a
SASI drive for my P2000C.
I suspect it's easier to use CF cards. At least some USB card readers
can handle those. And the interface is essentially the same as the IDE
hard disk....
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the
appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic
PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a
laptop, I suppose.
Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement
processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of
different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / repairable?
Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy
way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it.
-tony
28 May
28 May
5:42 a.m.
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 07:17:54AM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, May 27, 2023 at 8:47 PM philip--- via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one.
Adaptec USB2Xchange is one that kept popping up when I looked for
just such a thing years ago. Acquired one some time ago (from EBay,
because of course the product has been EoL for years).
Haven't used it yet, but it presumably works reasonably well.
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
Thinking of that, I had actually wondered whether one could transfer the
appropriate image files from a modern PC (internet access) to a classic
PC (disk drives) using a SCSI hard drive. Not if the modern PC is a
laptop, I suppose. Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it
shouldn't be too hard to make
pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a
SASI drive for my P2000C.
There is a whole collection of SCSI device emulators out there and
they usually tend to use SD or CF cards for actual storage.
I suspect it's easier to use CF cards. At least
some USB card readers
can handle those. And the interface is essentially the same as the IDE
hard disk....
It helps that a lot of the pro DSLR cameras used CF as storage for quite
some time, so card readers for CF should be easy to find.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
6:32 a.m.
Tony,
An instrument slightly more to your taste than a PC might a 16500b logic
analyser. Perhaps you've already got one. I believe these can work with
both LIF and MSDOS floppies and uses an IDE HDD (which can painlessly be
replaced with CF card) in DOS format internally. I don't know if it will
handle other than 3.5" formats but it's quite possible that the support for
those formats is generic and it might work, given an appropriately mangled
hardware interface.
-adrian
8:12 a.m.
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM Adrian Godwin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Tony,
An instrument slightly more to your taste than a PC might a 16500b logic
analyser. Perhaps you've already got one. I believe these can work with
both LIF and MSDOS floppies and uses an IDE HDD (which can painlessly be
replaced with CF card) in DOS format internally. I don't know if it will
handle other than 3.5" formats but it's quite possible that the support for
those formats is generic and it might work, given an appropriately mangled
hardware interface.
Well, the hardware might be capable of doing other formats but it
might not. Most if not all of the HP HPIB disk units are hardwired to
be double density only, as is the HP4951C protocol analyser's internal
disk controller and I could well believe a logic analyser would be the
same. Standard PC floppy disks and all 3.5" LIF floppy disks are
double density after all.
In any case to handle other formats you'd have to do battle with the
16500's firmware whch I doubt is documented at that level. And I don't
think schematics of the instrument exist anywhere, I believe the
HP1630 was the last HP logic analyser to have schematics in the
service manual (I do have one of those).
If I want to do that much work I might as well make my own system from
scratch. One problem with that (and a major plus-point of things like
the Greaseweazle) is that traditional floppy disk controller ICs are
either discontinued or at best EOL'ed. I don't like designing round
parts that might not be available.
-tony
7:41 a.m.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Tony Duell via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: philip(a)axeside.co.uk; "Tony Duell" <ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 28 May, 2023 At 07:17
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
I suspect USB-SCSI interfaces exist but I've not looked into one.
Since SCSI is a 'formatted' interface it shouldn't be too hard to make
pseudo disk drive using flash memory. I must look into that to make a
SASI drive for my P2000C.
I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with the GreaseWeasel but have
never heard of BlueSCSI. ( https://scsi.blue/ ). Though SASI
compatability seems "possible but not guaranteed", being an open source
project, you can probably wangle the existing PCB's/software to be SASI
compliant. More research, that i can leave you to perform, will probably
help with that endeavor.
As for a means to interface SCSI to USB, they do exist, but are often
expensive and of debatable compatibility. You will almost always have a
much better experience with a SCSI PCI card in an (and i don't mean to
push the subject) older PC.
Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy
way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it.
-tony
The XT-IDE ISA card is probably what you'll want. Though it doesn't
"natively" support SD cards, there are IDE/CF adaptors to SD cards that
can provide a means and ways of interfacing an older PC with modern
media. ( https://users.glitchwrks.com/~glitch/xt-ide.html )
Anyway, you seem to truly have your heart set on the Greaseweasel. As
long as you can write, or find, software that can turn the Weasels
output into something useful, i'm sure it will suit your purposes fine.
Of course, if you're archiving software froma truly unknown format, it
will almost definitely be the best solutions. Getting useful data into
and out of it is where the trouble will be.
Good luck!
Josh
7:54 a.m.
I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with the
GreaseWeasel but have
never heard of BlueSCSI. ( https://scsi.blue/ ). Though SASI
compatability seems "possible but not guaranteed", being an open source
project, you can probably wangle the existing PCB's/software to be SASI
compliant. More research, that i can leave you to perform, will probably
help with that endeavor.
The only reason I've heard of the Greaseweazle is that it was
recommended to me. I did ask at the start of this thread about other
similar flux-transition interfaces but got no real information. On the
grounds I could get a Greaseweazle easily, it was fairly inexpensive
and it's open-source I've decided to give it a go. Still not managed
to get the software working, which is probably down to the Windows
installation on this machine. But I am going to take the adviceof some
more knowledgeable friends before I change anything.
I suspect that making a SASI-SD interface is something I could attempt myself.
Anyway, you seem to truly have your heart set on the
Greaseweasel. As
long as you can write, or find, software that can turn the Weasels
output into something useful, i'm sure it will suit your purposes fine.
Of course, if you're archiving software froma truly unknown format, it
will almost definitely be the best solutions. Getting useful data into
and out of it is where the trouble will be.
Most of my computers [1] use normal FM or MFM disks and I would hope
the Greaseweazle software could handle that.If I can convert to/from a
disk image file I can probably carry on on my own.
One problem with the Greaseweazle is that there is no documentation. I
would at least have expected the equivalent of a man page. Knowing
what the options are, what it claims to be able to do, etc would be a
good start!
[1] I do have machines using GCR recording (Apple ][. Sirius (Victor
9000), etc). And M2FM (DEC RX02). And that odd double-density system
used by Intel in the MDS800. But I can manage without being able to
transfer to/from those, at least at the start.
-tony
Good luck!
Josh
8:35 a.m.
On 5/28/23 07:54, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> I'm suprised to hear you're familliar with
the GreaseWeasel but have
Most of my computers [1] use normal FM or MFM disks
and I would hope
the Greaseweazle software could handle that.If I can convert to/from a
disk image file I can probably carry on on my own.
One problem with the Greaseweazle is that there is no documentation. I
would at least have expected the equivalent of a man page. Knowing
what the options are, what it claims to be able to do, etc would be a
good start!
[1] I do have machines using GCR recording (Apple ][. Sirius (Victor
9000), etc). And M2FM (DEC RX02). And that odd double-density system
used by Intel in the MDS800. But I can manage without being able to
transfer to/from those, at least at the start.
All of these flux-transition gizmos, whether or not they're the
Applesauce, Greaseweazle, Catweasel, Fluxengine, Deviceside.... work
exactly the same way. A counter free-runs, and every time there's
change in direction of magnetization on a disk, the value of the counter
is sampled. The samples can be stored in memory, or send down a wire to
a host computer. The index pulse is usually included in the sample.
Microcontrollers are the natural choice for this, but you could
implement the same in SSI TTL if push came to shove, provided that your
design had the high-frequency headroom.
Writing the data back is essentially an exercise in PWM. Again, a good
fit for most microcontrollers.
All the rest, as they say, is software.
This is not the way a conventional floppy controller operates, since
they hail from the bad old days of slower-speed logic. Much of the way
they operate is encoded as a state machine in the form of specialized
microcode.
There is a fellow from Germany who managed program a PIC MCU (IIRC) to
act as a floppy controller (read/write) for (at least) PC MFM floppies.
I'll try to find the link in what I laughingly call my bookmarks, if
anyone's interested. My feeling is that it was a "proof of concept"
sort of thing and relied on some very tight loop code.
--Chuck
8:45 a.m.
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 4:36 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
All of these flux-transition gizmos, whether or not
they're the
Applesauce, Greaseweazle, Catweasel, Fluxengine, Deviceside.... work
exactly the same way. A counter free-runs, and every time there's
change in direction of magnetization on a disk, the value of the counter
is sampled. The samples can be stored in memory, or send down a wire to
a host computer. The index pulse is usually included in the sample.
Sure, I understand that. But as I have no experience with such
microcontrollers I am happy to let somebody else write the code.
As for 'all working the same way, that does not mean I don't need
documentation. The commands to the controlling software could be just
about anything.
Microcontrollers are the natural choice for this, but
you could
implement the same in SSI TTL if push came to shove, provided that your
design had the high-frequency headroom.
It's not actually all that fast, at least not compared to some things
I've worked with. Pulse rates around 1MHz or so. Yes you need to
sample faster than that, but it's not a ridiculous rate. I guess
that's why a simple microcontroller can do it in software.
Writing the data back is essentially an exercise in PWM. Again, a good
fit for most microcontrollers.
All the rest, as they say, is software.
This is not the way a conventional floppy controller operates, since
they hail from the bad old days of slower-speed logic. Much of the way
they operate is encoded as a state machine in the form of specialized
microcode.
In my much younger days I disassembled and commented the microcode in
the RX02. And later the microcode in the HP11305 hard disk controller
(which is similar in concept). They are elegantly written bits of
tight code (as they have to be) but not that hard to understand (a lot
harder to write!)
-tony
2:49 p.m.
On Sun, May 28, 2023 at 7:18 AM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
That sounds too useful to give up on.
What about using a gotek drive or similar to put a USB stick on the floppy
bus, and/or one of the dos-based 3rd party IP stacks for ftp access ?
Tony, I don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement
processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of
different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional /
repairable?
Still works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy
way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it.
-tony
30 May
30 May
9:09 a.m.
Tony, I
don't recall what became of the AT with 486 replacement
processor that used to be your main home machine. ISTR it had loads of
different floppy drives hung off it. Is it still functional / repairable?
Still
works, or at least it did when I last powered it up. But no easy
way to read USB sticks or SD cards on it.
-tony
9:37 a.m.
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:09 PM philip--- via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wasn't trying to solve the whole problem at once!
A lot of people have recommended "sneakernet" to connect your modern
That's an expression which always sounds odd to me. The footwear known
as 'sneakers' across the Pond is, I believe, called 'trainers' here.
But (a) on this list I'll use 'trainer' to refer to one of the
microprocessor evaluation/learning systems and (b) I've never owned
such shoes and nor do I intend to.
laptop to an older machine with drives hung off it. I
was wondering
about the latter half of this - what might be the older machine with the
drives. I think that AT would be a good choice.
Actually, I think the AT is not the best choice for this. I don't
think the disk controller I currently have in the machine handles
single density correctly. And of course it only supports 2 drives,
currently 80 cylinder 5.25 and 3.5" ones.
A better choice might be my TRS-80 model 4. That disk controller
certainly handles single density, although it won't handle the high
density data rates used on 1.2M and 1.4M PC disks and 8" floppies.
It's also a Western Digital controller chip which I much prefer to
Intel-esque ones.I do have a hard disk on it too -- a 3rd party unit
badged 'Cumana'
In which case we can move on to the former - what you are physically
carrying from machine to machine.
I still think a SCSI drive is a possibility. You seem to be considering
an SD card. Some have suggested CF cards, with which I'm not familiar.
For that matter, whatever became of PCMCIA cards? How big did they get
anyway?
The size shouldn't be a problem Assuming I am transfering a disk image
to write to a floppy, it shouldn't be much larger than the capacity of
that floppy. 1MByte should be enough.
-tony
10:08 a.m.
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
--Chuck
10:22 a.m.
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write
the drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.
A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more
storage needs 😁?
On 5/30/2023 12:08 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still
impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
--Chuck
11:09 a.m.
On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the drivers for
the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, binaries, executable, applications
and the operating system and not fill half of that disk.
A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more storage needs 😁?
Yes.
We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS
applications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do similar
things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and then backporting to
PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while going the other way worked quite
well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever shipped, comes to mind as an example
of the former.)
Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an RC-11, on the
college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the big hard drives on the main
timesharing system weren't that much bigger (2.4 MB each, a pair of RK05s).
paul
11:25 a.m.
No to mention the 32K 12 bit word (48k Byte) DF-32 fixed head hard disk.
16 Data tracks, 4 control tracks.
2048 bytes/track
10" disk (1/4" thick)
1100 BPI
50 LBS
On 5/30/2023 1:09 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write the drivers for
the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code, binaries, executable, applications
and the operating system and not fill half of that disk.
A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more storage needs 😁?
Yes.
We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS
applications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do similar
things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and then backporting to
PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while going the other way worked quite
well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever shipped, comes to mind as an example
of the former.)
Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an RC-11, on the
college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the big hard drives on the main
timesharing system weren't that much bigger (2.4 MB each, a pair of RK05s).
paul
12:05 p.m.
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 11:09 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Microschlock overcame the problem of its shitty code by taking advantage of
Moore's Law: your computer is slow? It's not our software, you just don't
have enough memory.
But it didn't matter how much you increased your memory or hard drive
space, Microsoft would just fill it up, needlessly. And then blame you
when you didn't upgrade your hardware. Again.
Sellam
On May 30, 2023, at 1:22 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at work (I had to write
the drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.
A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB now.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to create more and more
storage needs 😁?
Yes.
We used to call that the "virtual disease" in honor of the fact that VMS
applications tended to be 5x or 10x the size of PDP-11 applications that do
similar things. As a result, developing for both by wring it for VMS and
then backporting to PDP-11 tended to give terminally bad performance, while
going the other way worked quite well. ("KOALA" which I'm not sure ever
shipped, comes to mind as an example of the former.)
Disk drive growth is pretty amazing. My first hard drive was 256 kB (an
RC-11, on the college physics department PDP-11/20 in 1973). Amd even the
big hard drives on the main timesharing system weren't that much bigger
(2.4 MB each, a pair of RK05s).
31 May
31 May
12:52 p.m.
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive at
work (I had to write the
drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.
A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)
A single .raw file from my camera can be over 20MB
now.
Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a hobby,
not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing.
Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX,
as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy
at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above
overly optimistic statement.
And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job
surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M
floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to
write much code these days.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to
create more and more
storage needs 😁?
"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
1:14 p.m.
On 2023-05-31 1:52 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz
via cctalk wrote:
Looking at a BYTE from 1983, there was a Japanese 3 inch floppy, 500K raw.
That must of lasted as long as the ad.
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive
at work (I had to write the
drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.
A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s) our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
Ben.
1:32 p.m.
On Wed, 31 May 2023, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that
fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)
Data will expand to fill slightly more than all available storage
capacity. - Boyle's law
MICROS~1 works hard to make sure that their "requirements" keep up with
Moore's law.
After Moore's death, will his law continue to be enforced?
2 Jun
2 Jun
3:44 a.m.
Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> writes:
Data will expand to fill slightly more than all
available storage
capacity. - Boyle's law
"The steady state of disks is full." --Ken Thompson
-tih
--
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay
31 May
31 May
1:33 p.m.
I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
comparison:
1K 102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
On 5/31/2023 2:52 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 12:22:53PM -0500, Mike Katz
via cctalk wrote:
In 1981 when i got my first 5MB hard disk drive
at work (I had to write the
drivers for the OS myself) I was able to put all or my source code,
binaries, executable, applications and the operating system and not fill
half of that disk.
A the first computer science class in school (very early 90s)
our teacher
held up a 3.5" 1.44M floppy and told us that "this can hold all you'll
ever write" ... well, that aged worse than fresh milk ;-)
A single .raw file from my camera can be over
20MB now.
Indeed. The camera archive (2 people shooting DSLRs - strictly as a
hobby,
not professionals) here is at 1.5T now here and of course only ever growing.
Even the compressed archive of my diploma thesis (written in LaTeX,
as one does - so no bloated MS Word files) won't fit on a 1.44M floppy
at 1.9M in size and that happened not that many years after the above
overly optimistic statement.
And anybody doing _any_ amount of programming outside of ones job
surely has written way more source code than would ever fit on a 1.44M
floppy, even after LZ4 compression. I know I did and I don't get to
write much code these days.
Is technology advancing us or just helping us to
create more and more
storage needs 😁?
"Too much storage capacity" is a thing that
fundamentally cannot exist,
data grows to fill available storage capacity eventually (and usually
much sooner than one likes). ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
2:04 p.m.
On 05/31/2023 3:33 PM CDT Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
comparison:
1K 102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
NSA's intel on US citizens (that they don't collect): 37 AU
Googles intel on World citizens (that they don't collect): 419 LY
Will
3:31 p.m.
On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of
paper tape for
comparison:
1K 102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?
--Chuck
3:51 p.m.
Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape
Here are some other some other good comparisons:
Reels of DECtape
Reels of magnetic tape.
300 baud audio cassettes.
Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype
Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper
Tons of drum storage
14" platters end to end or tonnage
Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips
length in HP-41C magnetic card strips
Miles of ultrasonic memory wire
Number of bubbles of bubble memory
Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw)
I guess that's enough frivolity for now.
On 5/31/2023 5:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths
of paper tape for
comparison:
1K 102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
How about converting that to tons of 80
column punched cards?
--Chuck
4:33 p.m.
On May 31, 2023, at 6:51 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Believe it or not I thought of that and tons of paper tape
Here are some other some other good comparisons:
Reels of DECtape
Reels of magnetic tape.
300 baud audio cassettes.
Hours to print on a 110 baud Teletype
Miles of Teletype paper or fanfold paper
Tons of drum storage
14" platters end to end or tonnage
Tons of 6810 (128 x 8 bit) or 2102 (1Kx1) memory chips
length in HP-41C magnetic card strips
Miles of ultrasonic memory wire
Number of bubbles of bubble memory
Tons of 1 bit memory tubes (and their current draw)
I guess that's enough frivolity for now.
Tons of Selectron or Williams tubes? :-) And what about tons of mercury delay line?
paul
5:01 p.m.
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?
5:25 p.m.
On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB
Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?
I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
5:40 p.m.
Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density goes way up.
On 5/31/2023 7:25 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/31/23 17:01, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
1TB Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?
I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few
thousand 1TB microSD
cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
7:32 p.m.
>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full
of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
>> hurtling down the highway?
> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage density
goes way up.
Well, certainly more than tapes.
A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards?
8:03 p.m.
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
There's gotta be something like 1,000 1TB MicroSD cards per 22TB hard drive.
Sellam
>> What
is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
>> hurtling down the highway?
> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage
density goes way up.
Well, certainly more than tapes.
A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards?
1 Jun
1 Jun
6:26 a.m.
On 5/31/2023 10:03 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 7:32 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
There's gotta be something like 1,000 1TB MicroSD cards per 22TB hard drive.
Sellam
if you go purely by cubic volume:
3.5" Drives are 146mm x 101.6mm x 25.4mm (full height) = 376,773.44 mm³
2.5" Drives are 100mm x 69.85mm x 19mm (full height) = 132,620 mm³
uSD cards are 15mm x 11mm x 1 mm = 165 mm³
2,283 1TB uSD cards will fit in the same cubic area as a 3.5" drive.
803 uSD cards will fit in the same cubic area as a 2.5" drive.
The aforementioned 22TB drive was a 3.5" drive so therefore that
proverbial station wagon can hold 2,283 times more storage and therefor
bandwidth by carrying uSD cards instead of 22TB hard disk drives.
Please note: This calculation does not take into account that due to
the smaller volume of the uSD card more of them might be able to fit
into the station wagon than the equivalent number of hard drives.
I will leave the determination of exactly how many 3.5" hard drives can
fit in that station wagon vs uSD cards.
Tongue firmly implanted in cheek😁
>>
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
>> hurtling down the highway?
> I suspect that a mobility scooter filled with a few thousand 1TB microSD
> cards rolling down a sidewalk has a larger bandwidth than the station
> wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
On Wed, 31 May 2023, Mike Katz
via cctalk wrote:
Make that 22 TB hard drive and the storage
density goes way up.
Well, certainly more than tapes.
A 22TB hard drive is physically smaller than 22 1TB Micro-SD cards?
31 May
31 May
5:37 p.m.
This has been covered here before:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2549
The bit rate over internet over non-electronic transmission methods
depends on several factors:
1. Speed of the mechanical transfer medium (Car, motorcycle, drone, air
plane, sled dog, etc.).
2. The time is takes to traverse the distance.
3. The total amount of data being transported.
For example a carrier pigeon carrying 1TB USB drive for 1 mile at 30 MPH
achieves a speed of:
1 Mile at 30MPH will take 120 seconds. 8Tbits / 120S = 73.3 Gbits/S
A UPS driver carrying a 20TB drive 60 miles traveling at 60MPH would
achieve a speed of:
60 miles at 60 MPH will take 3600 seconds. 160TBits/3600S = 48GBits/S
Fill that UPS truck with 100 20TB drives and the data rate increases by
100 time or 4.88TBits/S.
However we are not discussing the latency 😁
On 5/31/2023 7:01 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB
Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?
7:17 p.m.
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB
Mcro-SD cards
hurtling down the highway?
This is actually a compelling thought.
My answer: a lot.
With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during
the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES
of data(!!!!!!!)
An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards
containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland,
California.
Sellam
7:29 p.m.
The exact quote by Andrew Tanenbaum is: "Never underestimate the
bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.".
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Andrew_S._Tanenbaum
Randall Munroe has addressed the issue! :
https://what-if.xkcd.com/31/
On Wed, 31 May 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 5:01 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
>> hurtling down the highway?
>>
>
> This is actually a compelling thought.
>
> My answer: a lot.
>
> With regards to punched cards: I imagine I converted about 200,000 during
> the days when I provided that service, equalling an astounding 16 MEGABYTES
> of data(!!!!!!!)
>
> An addendum (and true story): I once converted 50,000 punched cards
> containing names of the dead, for Mountain View Cemetery in Oakland,
> California.
>
> Sellam
1 Jun
1 Jun
1:40 p.m.
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of 1TB
Mcro-SD cards hurtling
down the highway?
$BIGNUM.
But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the
station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability
being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way,
so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant
copies ...
SCNR,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
2:19 p.m.
On 2023-06-01 2:40 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin
via cctalk wrote:
I can see them them all flying out the open windows, once you hit the
free way.
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtling
down the highway?
$BIGNUM.
But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the
station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability
being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way,
so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant
copies ...
SCNR,
Alex.
2:33 p.m.
>> What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full
of 1TB Mcro-SD cards
>> hurtling down the highway?
On 2023-06-01 2:40 p.m., Alexander Schreiber via
cctalk wrote:
> $BIGNUM.
> But the latency is going to be orders of magnitude worse than the
> station wagon full of tapes, so there is that. Also, SD card reliability
> being what it is, expect some of that data to "evaporate" along to way,
> so you might need to look into applying erasure coding and some redundant
> copies ...
On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, ben via cctalk wrote:
I can see them them all flying out the open windows,
once you hit the free
way.
You would not have windows open, and you would probably have them in cigar
boxes, shoe boxes, and lots of old Amazon delivery boxes.
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
In 2012, I walked into the Toyota dealer, with checkbook in hand, and
said, "I want to buy a Prius Station Wagon".
The salesman said, "We don't have any station wagons."
So, I turned and headed towards the door.
He ran after me, and said, "but, we have this, which is kind of like a
mini SUV.", and pointed to a Prius V ("Prius Alpha in other markets).
It sure looked like a station wagon to me, and I bought it.
They now have some "crossovers", that look like station wagons.
And, of course, modern SUVs no longer look like jeeps, they look like a
macho station wagon.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:20 p.m.
On 6/1/23 14:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have wagons and I suppose one
could consider the Subaru Outback to be one.
Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC
Subdivision...
I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick...
--Chuck
4:37 p.m.
I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station wagon😲
They use to make the all road which is basically a cross over.
And they have several models of Avant (fancy snooty name for station
wagon).😁
Audi has announced for 2025 the RS6 Avant Plug In Hybrid (full specs
haven't been released yet but think 600 to 800 HP in a wagon).
That's not you fathers station wagon.
On 6/1/2023 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/1/23 14:33, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have wagons and I suppose one
could consider the Subaru Outback to be one.
Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC
Subdivision...
I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick...
--Chuck
4:43 p.m.
New subject: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly station
wagon😲
I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon
to me.
--
Christian Kennedy, Ph.D.
chris(a)mainecoon.com AF6AP | DB00000692 | PG00029419
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration…"
4:51 p.m.
New subject: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the
Porsche Taycan Cross.
The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon.
As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain.
Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress...
--Chuck
I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly
station wagon😲
I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon
to me.
2 Jun
2 Jun
8:14 a.m.
New subject: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
volvo 245 and mercedes w123 wagons were the best tanks for wgons
On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk wrote:
On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the
Porsche Taycan Cross.
The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon.
As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain.
Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress...
--Chuck
I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly
station wagon😲
I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon
to me.
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
We're running two VOLVO 940 station wagons on LPG. Best cars we ever had!
Ulli
Adrian Stoness via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> schrieb am Fr., 2. Juni
2023, 17:15:
volvo 245 and mercedes w123 wagons were the best tanks
for wgons
On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 6/1/23 16:43, Christian Kennedy via cctalk
wrote:
On 6/1/23 16:37, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Mike did say " lowly" station wagon. For that matter, there's the
Porsche Taycan Cross.
The Volvo V90 Cross Country certainly does look like a wagon.
As does the Mercedes E450 All-Terrain.
Granted, none of them look like a Ford Country Squire, but progress...
--Chuck
I'm sorry but Audi does not make a lowly
station wagon😲
I don't know about that. My wife's Q7 sure looks like a station wagon
to me.
9:41 a.m.
New subject: Station wagons (was: Re: Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.)
On 6/2/23 09:25, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote:
We're running two VOLVO 940 station wagons on LPG.
Best cars we ever had!
Yup. Owned a 940. The problems I had wee mostly with (a) too many
plastic parts and (b) lead-free solder. I reworked the relay box using
good old leaded solder, but never did get around to fixing the sound system.
--Chuck
1 Jun
1 Jun
5:01 p.m.
> But, there is another problem.
> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
On Thu, 1 Jun 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
That's not true, Audi, Mercedes, Volvo all have
wagons and I suppose one
could consider the Subaru Outback to be one.
Many SUVs remind me of light trucks. Take, for instance, the GMC
Subdivision...
I still have fond memories of my old Volvo Turbobrick...
I was actually just griping about the fad terminology.
Most of them make things that I would call a "station wagon".
But, Toyota insisted that they don't make "station wagons".
I thought that my Prius V was a station wagon. It sure seemed like it to
me. The dealer insisted that it was a "mini SUV"
They have discontinued it.
Audi makes an "all road"; Subaru makes an "Outback";
Volvo and Mercedes at least make "wagons", but nobody is willing to call
what they make a "station wagon".
I learned to drive in a '57 Chevy Station Wagon.
I had a 1976 Civic Station Wagon,
and a 1984 Civic Station Wagon.
and a 2012 Prius V, that I thought was a station wagon.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3 Jun
3 Jun
10:46 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
11:25 a.m.
On 2023-06-03 11:46 a.m., Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin
via cctalk wrote:
Getting older now, packing a sofa, next a love seat.:)
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). Kind regards,
Alex.
But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer?
Ben.
12:54 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 12:25:48PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 2023-06-03 11:46 a.m., Alexander Schreiber via
cctalk wrote:
Hehe.
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred
Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Getting older now, packing a sofa, next a love seat.:)
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface). But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer?
Depends. I'm pretty sure it won't fit a full height rack, but as long
as the computer only occupies _part_ of the rack it might fit. I _have_
used the car to transport more than a dozen rack mounted machines to
their new homes when our club had to clear out the bunker data center
in the Swiss Alps (due to the place changing owners and the new owners
having different plans). But those were almost all 1U pizza boxen,
and reasonably current (hence off topic here) hardware to boot.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
1:30 p.m.
On 6/3/23 12:54, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
But can it handle any kind of rack mount computer?
Depends. I'm pretty sure it won't fit a full height rack, but as long
as the computer only occupies _part_ of the rack it might fit. I _have_
used the car to transport more than a dozen rack mounted machines to
their new homes when our club had to clear out the bunker data center
in the Swiss Alps (due to the place changing owners and the new owners
having different plans). But those were almost all 1U pizza boxen,
and reasonably current (hence off topic here) hardware to boot.
Depends. I've transported a 32U rack in the back of a Gen2 Prius--just
barely, but the hatch closed fully.
--Chuck
3:03 p.m.
> But, there is another problem.
> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant"
version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).
Yes, quite true.
As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology.
Note the quotation marks in the original post.
The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to
unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home.
BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with
Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first
(if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA.
Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to
call them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies
"Station Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you
substitute a "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"?
My 1957 Chevrolet, that I learned to drive in, was marketed as a "Station
Wagon". It held sofas, String Bass, and Sousaphones (but never tried all
of those at the same time).
It would have easily held a full size rack, AND lot of tapes.
I thought that my girlfriend's 1968 VW "Squareback" was a "Station
Wagon",
but apparently not. It easily held an MTST, but I doubt whether a full
size rack would have fit.
My 1984 Civic "Station Wagon" was marketed as a "Station Wagon".
I'm not
sure whether a full size rack would have fit. Maybe.
My 2012 Prius V/Alpha; Toyota DENIED that it was a "Station Wagon",
although it sure seemed to me to be one. I'm not sure whether a full size
rack would have fit. Probably not.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:12 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 03:03:43PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
> But,
there is another problem.
> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant"
version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).
Yes, quite true.
As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology.
Note the quotation marks in the original post.
The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to
unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home.
BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with
Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first
(if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA.
Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call
them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies
"Station
Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a
"Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"?
5:37 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 5:20 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers
country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface
In other words, a station wagon :)
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went
away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
It's because the station wagon has the connotation of being a perfect
transportation machine for a large middle class family, and being middle
class and having a large family are two concepts that are in the process of
being stamped out by people who want neither.
Bring back the station wagon!
Sellam
5:47 p.m.
On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Here in the US, it wasn’t so much that they were considered ‘big and wasteful’, it's
that a station wagon has a connotation of being frumpy, something your parents or
grandparents would have driven. Basically, “not cool”. Ironically, it’s the older
generations that now prefer SUVs due to ease of getting in and out, and higher road
visibility.
The wife and I just purchased a 2018 Buick station wagon. Only offered here for 3 years,
it’s really an Opel. Sales were abysmal. Nobody knows what it was, nobody has seen one
before, and on a recent 1000+ mile to the Dayton Hamvention, I never saw another one
coming, nor going. Funnily, most thought it was a Volvo or Mercedes of some sort. We love
it.
My tape measure says it’ll handle an 083 sorter on its back, and 30+ MPG means a lot of
vintage gear will be getting rescued in the near future. -C
4 Jun
4 Jun
3:37 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 07:47:35PM -0500, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote:
Eh, this engineer strongly prefers a _practical_ car. That's how I ended
up with a Mercedes S204:
- Diesel engine - I don't care about driving fast, I want an efficient
engine with long service life, lots of torque is nice too
- station wagon - I don't care about looks, I want the cargo space and
I've used it quite a few times already, although I _do_ think it looks
nice (as does my wife), but that is bonus
- a _safe_ car - solid design and plenty of safety engineering to keep
me and mine alive (and hopefully as minimally injured as possible) in
case of an accident
- a reliable car - that series has a pretty decent track record from
what I can tell and actually doing the regular inspections on time
and with the officially certified mechanics helps too
I also found simple repairs (such as replacing one of the rear light
clusters after I missed (well, I wish I'd _actually_ missed it) a
bollard while reversing suprisingly simple: undo 5 screws, disconnect
connector, pull old cluster, reconnect connector, put new cluster in,
tighten down 5 screws, all done in < 2 min with zero prep (and I'm no
mechanic).
It also nicely hugs the road, with the suspension hitting the (for me)
sweet point of giving you a solid road feel without rattling your teeth
on every uneven spot.
I'm not a fan of SUVs, mostly for two reasons:
- higher center of gravity makes them too easy to roll
- they tend to end up on the more heavy side, for which you pay in
fuel consumption (the high build doesn't help with that either) and
fuel in Europe is not cheap
On Jun 3, 2023, at 7:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber
via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Here in the US, it wasn’t so much that they were considered ‘big and wasteful’, it's
that a station wagon has a connotation of being frumpy, something your parents or
grandparents would have driven. Basically, “not cool”. Ironically, it’s the older
generations that now prefer SUVs due to ease of getting in and out, and higher road
visibility. The wife and I just purchased a 2018 Buick station
wagon. Only offered here for 3 years, it’s really an Opel. Sales were abysmal. Nobody
knows what it was, nobody has seen one before, and on a recent 1000+ mile to the Dayton
Hamvention, I never saw another one coming, nor going. Funnily, most thought it was a
Volvo or Mercedes of some sort. We love it.
My tape measure says it’ll handle an 083 sorter on its back, and 30+ MPG means a lot of
vintage gear will be getting rescued in the near future. -C
Mine does about 32 mpg (7.2l/100km), which is pretty ok for 200 hp - the
OM651 is a pretty decent engine. Put more than 160k km (100k miles) on
it so far, plan for plenty more.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
11:43 p.m.
On 05/06/2023 00:37, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote:
Eh, this engineer strongly prefers a _practical_ car.
That is why we have a Toyota Avensis station wagon - one of
the last ones made. Never sold in the US.
Unfortunately the successor (Camry) wich I liked because it
has a linux-based entertainment system, doesn't seem to come
in a station wagon variant.
Julf
3 Jun
3 Jun
5:50 p.m.
> Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of
them are willing to call
> them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies
"Station
> Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a
> "Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"?
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the
manufacturers country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went
away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
Although there EXIST a few [rare] situations where they are truly
appropriate, to me, most SUV's are the perfect example of "big and
wasteful".
Its most common usage around here is as a commuting vehicle for one, or at
most two people.
I will have to admit that the "station wagon" shape incurs a tiny hit on
aerodynamic efficiency vs a sedaan, but other than that, it dramatically
increases the capacity of a sedan. I always prefer a "station wagon" over
a sedan.
I find it comical that the American automotive industry deems the term
"station wagon" to almost be an obscenity, with "nobody would want to
admit to having one". They think that it represents "stodgy" and
"dull".
Consider the 1800ES model of the Volvo 1800.
My original comment was intended to be analogous to Tony (ARD)'s
comment about problem with "sneaker-net" due to "sneakers" being
unobtanium in UK. (yes, they do have some shoes that WE might consider to
be the same as "sneakers")
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:18 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 3, 2023 at 5:50 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
My original comment was intended to be analogous to
Tony (ARD)'s
comment about problem with "sneaker-net" due to "sneakers" being
unobtanium in UK. (yes, they do have some shoes that WE might consider to
be the same as "sneakers")
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Yes, for ARD's sake they could be referred to as "pedantics".
Sellam
4 Jun
4 Jun
2:39 a.m.
Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
> never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't
exist
> there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
> class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
> like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
> and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
> down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
...down the Autobahn.
--
Hilsen Harald
Слава Україні!
10:24 a.m.
On 2023-06-04 3:39 a.m., Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote:
Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]:
Down the Autobahn...
https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers
> country)
> never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't
exist
> there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the
> "Kombi"
> class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
> like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
> and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
> down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the
highway.
...down the Autobahn. 
11:54 a.m.
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the
highway.
...down the Autobahn.
the Autobahn...
https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893
Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the advertisement was
very novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the content of its
memory without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data
from one point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with a gasoline or
diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were the
case, the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
12:24 p.m.
On Jun 4, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Ben F. wrote regarding transport of data in a moving vehicle:
Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable computer?
Runs, dodging and weaving.
David
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
David Barto
barto(a)kdbarto.org
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the
highway.
...down the Autobahn. the Autobahn...
https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893
Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the time, and, while the advertisement was
very novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the content of its
memory without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data
from one point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with a gasoline or
diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were the
case, the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
1:15 p.m.
Earlier today, I wrote:
> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at the
time, and, while the advertisement was very
> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the
system would retain the content of its memory
> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data from
one
> point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow
a trailer behind it with a gasoline or
> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were
the case,
> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the
> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
To which David Barto replied:
Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable
computer?
Runs, dodging and weaving.
I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the passenger seat
of
the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be able to sit on
the
seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The Straight-8 came
with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just be a matter of cabling
it up to the Teletype.
It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd be far
worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once stopped somewhere
pleasant, you could
actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR. It'd
definitely be
an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek).
1:28 p.m.
Rick Bensene wrote:
Earlier today, I wrote:
Please stop trying to discuss classic computers on the station wagons mailing list.
:-)
> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at
the time, and, while the advertisement was very
> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
> Since the machine had magnetic core memory,
the system would retain the content of its memory
> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data from
one
> point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could
tow a trailer behind it with a gasoline or
> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were
the case,
> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the
> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
To which David Barto replied:
Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable
computer?
Runs, dodging and weaving.
I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the passenger
seat of
the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be able to sit on
the
seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The Straight-8
came with a 110-baud
current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just be a matter of cabling it up to the
Teletype.
It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd be far
worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/.
But, once stopped somewhere pleasant, you could actually develop programs using the
punched tape reader/punch on
the 33ASR. It'd definitely be an example of early "mobile computing".
(Tongue firmly in cheek).
2:57 p.m.
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
an example of early "mobile computing".
(Tongue firmly in cheek).
The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input!
Lee Felsenstein was asked how large and heavy the battery pack would be.
He replied that it was not intended to be run portably on batteries, and
that that was solely for getting it from one power source to another, and
therefore the battery pack might be your car.
At the time, Lee drove a Honda Accord (1920 pounds)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:35 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 10:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
Actually it's +12.6V and +5.6V and you have to supply both voltages.
It's one diode drop to the +5V (logic supply) and +12V (DRAM, disk
motors, monitor supply), the -5V for the DRAM is produced on the logic
board.
I am told it was never used and that the Osborne battery pack came
with an inverter to provide 110V AC.
-tony
an example of early "mobile computing".
(Tongue firmly in cheek).
The original Osborne 1 had a 12V power input!
4:39 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 4, 2023 at 1:16 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model
33-ASR Teletype in the
passenger seat of
the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be
able to sit on the
seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The
Straight-8 came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd
just be a matter of cabling it up to the Teletype.
It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd
be far worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once
stopped somewhere pleasant, you could
actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the
33ASR. It'd definitely be
an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek).
Back in the late, great Silicon Valley circa late 1990s when we had the
Ricochet packet-switched radio network (well before "smartphones") I had me
a Psion Series 5 ARM-powered palmtop computer with a TCP/IP stack installed
connected up to my 128Kbps Ricochet data modem and via telnet successfully
logged into my server at home (connected to the internet, appropriately
enough, through the early @Home cable internet with a fixed IP) and wrote
an e-mail while hurtling westbound on I-580 over the Dublin Grade at about
75mph. I'm an experienced distracted driver, so it was perfectly safe.
Those were the days.
Sellam
6:09 p.m.
Difficult to get the 60Hz pure AC to sync the data bits, I would think!
On 2023-06-04 16:15, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
Earlier today, I wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at
the time, and, while the advertisement was very
> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the content of
its memory
> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data from
one
> point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with a gasoline
or
> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were
the case,
> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the
> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
To which David Barto replied:
Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable
computer?
Runs, dodging and weaving.
I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the
passenger seat of
the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be able to sit on
the
seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The Straight-8
came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just be a matter of
cabling it up to the Teletype.
It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd be far
worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once stopped somewhere
pleasant, you could
actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR. It'd
definitely be
an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek).
6:09 p.m.
Back in the 70s, VW had a competition going when they came up with a
diagnostic connector (maybe pre-dating OBD2 or J1850?) to give it a name.
An engineer that sat next to me came up with what I thought should have
been the winning entry, although I am not sure he entered it: "Debug the
Bug plug".
I wonder if anybody has heard of this in the wild?
cheers,
Nigel
On 2023-06-04 16:15, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote:
Earlier today, I wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
> Doubtful that VW Bug was on the Autobahn at
the time, and, while the advertisement was very
> novel with a full-on minicomputer in the back seat of a VW Bug, the amount of data
> potentially being transported was likely only 4K 12-bit words, or 48K bits.
> Since the machine had magnetic core memory, the system would retain the content of
its memory
> without power, so in this scenario, the VM Bug was actually capable moving data from
one
> point to another, albeit, not all that much data.
> Now, if the Bug had a trailer hitch, it could tow a trailer behind it with a gasoline
or
> diesel powered generator with sufficient capacity to run the PDP-8. If that were
the case,
> the machine could actually process the data in its memory while it was moving down
the
> road...something a station wagon full of reels of magnetic tape wouldn't be able
to do.
To which David Barto replied:
Are you suggesting some kind of, say, portable
computer?
Runs, dodging and weaving.
I'm not sure that you could fit a complete Model 33-ASR Teletype in the
passenger seat of
the Bug. I suppose if the Teletype was removed from its stand, it might be able to sit on
the
seat, and be powered by the same generator that runs the Straight-8. The Straight-8
came with a 110-baud current-loop serial I/O interface, so it'd just be a matter of
cabling it up to the Teletype.
It'd be really hard to operate the machine while driving, for sure. It'd be far
worse than messing with a smartphone while driving :-/. But, once stopped somewhere
pleasant, you could
actually develop programs using the punched tape reader/punch on the 33ASR. It'd
definitely be
an example of early "mobile computing". (Tongue firmly in cheek).
11:55 a.m.
On 2023-06-04 13:24, ben via cctalk wrote:
Down the Autobahn...
https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/artifact/331/1893
I think the "bug" is in the back of a "beetle" :)
3:39 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 04, 2023 at 11:39:08AM +0200, Harald Arnesen via cctalk wrote:
Fred Cisin via cctalk [04/06/2023 02.50]:
... doing a sedate 160 km/h (100 miles/hour) because one is not in a hurry.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
On Sun, 4 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
> never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't
exist
> there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
> class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
> like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
> and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
> down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
yes. a Kombi full of tapes hurtling down the
highway.
...down the Autobahn.
3 Jun
3 Jun
9:06 p.m.
The reason for the “station wagon” going ways was the CAFE standards.
The modern SUV is based on a TRUCK chassis, and thus not restricted in MPG ratings from
the US government.
If you have a “station wagon” that is a “car” it is thus subject to CAFE standards.
Ford only makes the Mustang as a car (and that more and more only as an E-car at that),
all other cars are SUV’s.
Look at the car market from the standpoint of CAFE and you see that cars are more and more
based on a truck base
with the fuel economy of a truck. All because the US government is short sighted and
myopic in what may happen if
it choses to enforce some ideas of what fuel economy may be.
Sorry for the rant, and the current ideas of what “cars” are is just beyond me.
David
From a Marketing type:
Don't give me any technical reason why something can't be done.
If you really believed in the product you'd make it work.
David Barto
barto(a)kdbarto.org
On Jun 3, 2023, at 5:12 PM, Alexander Schreiber via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 03, 2023 at 03:03:43PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
So the Mercedes T model was (at least in Germany, the manufacturers country)
never called a "station wagon" because that category name doesn't exist
there. The closest analogue to it in German parlance would be the "Kombi"
class of vehicles. Based upon the more numerous sedan models, but shaped
like a station wagon with a large rear door, a level trunk (usually)
and with the option of considerably expanding cargo space by folding
down the rear seats to provide a flat surface.
And - since demand for that kind of vehicle never went away - there are
still quite a few "Kombi" variants of common sedans. As for why "nobody
makes station wagons anymore, but something like it and calls it a
different name" - I get the impression that station wagons in the US got
a bad rap as "big and wasteful" vehicles. Which is hilarious when you
think about the SUV epidemic that happened (and seems to be getting
worse still) many years later and very much redefined "big and wasteful"
(aside from "silly and dangerous to use due to high center of gravity").
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
> But,
there is another problem.
> None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant"
version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).
Yes, quite true.
As stated previously, that was a gripe about fad terminology.
Note the quotation marks in the original post.
The same as Tony (ARD) being unable to do "Sneaker-Net", due to
unavailability of "Sneakers" within his shopping range of his home.
BTW, the 1992 movie "Sneakers" (was it renamed for UK showings?), with
Robert Redford, Sidney Poitier, and James Earl Jones, was one of the first
(if not "The First"), movie to out the existence of NSA.
Many companies make suitable vehicles, but NONE of them are willing to call
them "station wagons". If the Purchase Order explicitly specifies
"Station
Wagon", then will the bureaucrats in purchasing let you substitute a
"Variant", instead of a "Station Wagon"?
4 Jun
4 Jun
2:23 p.m.
I had a Gen6 Golf wagon. Remarkably useful luggage capacity, but I don’t think it would
have fitted a full-depth rack through the tailgate.
Plenty of mag tape or SD-card space though.
d
On 4 Jun 2023, at 04:00, Alexander Schreiber via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 02:33:07PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
But, there is another problem.
None of the auto makers still make "Station Wagon"s!
Not quite true. VW makes the "Variant" version of the VW Golf and
Mercedes still makes the "t model" of the C and E class, all of which
are basically station wagons. And I can confirm from experience that
a Mercedes C204 T model fits a complete (fully assembled) IKEA sofa,
so it does have _quite_ a bit of cargo volume (and, once you fold down
the rear seats, a nice long _flat_ loading surface).
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison 
2 Jun
2 Jun
8:24 a.m.
On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 4:45 PM Alexander Schreiber via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 05:01:34PM -0700, Fred Cisin
via cctalk wrote:
I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges
once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer
Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a
machine room and someone wanted the packs. Obviously I didn't know
the right person that day).
At Pole, we saved all the raw sensor data from AMANDA and later Ice
Cube to DLT-format tapes (increasing the media/drive density over
time) once a year, and it quickly grew to the point that we were
stuffing several hundred TB of tape into an LC-130 to ship back to
Wisconsin. It took 3-4 months to read last year's data once it
arrived. So maybe not a 747 full of magtape, but still, a couple of
cubic meters of DLT tape going 850 miles in 3.5 hours (Pole to
McMurdo) is pretty decent bandwidth. The MCM->NZ leg was on a jet
(C-17) so it upped the bandwidth, but on a larger plane so the
effective capacity utilization dropped.
-ethan
What is the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
1TB Mcro-SD cards hurtling
down the highway?
$BIGNUM.
1:38 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with
RL02 cartridges
once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer
Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a
machine room and someone wanted the packs. Obviously I didn't know
the right person that day).
It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project.
Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :(
Sellam
3 Jun
3 Jun
2:53 p.m.
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
This was in the late 80s when packs and such were still somewhat desirable.
I did not see any cameras on the dock.
-ethan
I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded
with RL02 cartridges
once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer
Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a
machine room and someone wanted the packs....)
It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project.
Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :(
3:06 p.m.
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24 AM Ethan Dicks via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>> I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges
>> once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer
>> Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a
>> machine room and someone wanted the packs....)
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38 PM Sellam Abraham via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project.
> Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :(
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
This was in the late 80s when packs and such were
still somewhat desirable.
I did not see any cameras on the dock.
The cameras would not be needed until it was "hurtling down the highway",
not at the loading dock, nor even PRNDL'ing in the parking lot.
3:15 p.m.
It’s amazing to me how small “full size” cars are these days. I saw my old 1961 Ford
Falcon that used to be a small car and its bigger than my “luxury full size” car today.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 3, 2023, at 15:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 8:24 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>> I did see an actual 1970s station wagon loaded with RL02 cartridges
>> once, pulled up at the dock of Baker Systems, the large Computer
>> Science building at Ohio State (I suspect they were cleaning out a
>> machine room and someone wanted the packs....)
On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 4:38 PM Sellam Abraham via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> It might've just been an enactment of the old adage for a video project.
> Maybe they dumped the carts afterwards? :(
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
This was in the late 80s when packs and such were
still somewhat desirable.
I did not see any cameras on the dock.
The cameras would not be needed until it was "hurtling down the highway", not
at the loading dock, nor even PRNDL'ing in the parking lot.
3:55 p.m.
On Sat, 3 Jun 2023, Wayne S wrote:
It’s amazing to me how small “full size” cars are
these days. I
saw my old 1961 Ford Falcon that used to be a small car and its bigger
than my “luxury full size” car today.
The 1962 Ford Falcon "Squire Station Wagon" even had faux wood on the
sides!
The Ford Falcon, through 1965, was a "Compact car". My parents had a Ford
Falcon Futura convertible.
After 1966, Ford started making it larger, up to the 1970.5 "intermediate"
car.
Towards the end of the 1970s, American car companies finally started to
got over their insistence that bigger is better, as small foreign cars
started to eat their lunch.
31 May
31 May
4:22 p.m.
On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/31/23 13:33, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank you.
I think I will just convert file sizes to lengths
of paper tape for
comparison:
1K 102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?
--Chuck
4:26 p.m.
>> I think I will just convert file sizes to
lengths of paper tape for
>> comparison:
>>
>> 1K 102.4"
>> 10K 85'
>> 100K 853'
>> 1M 1.6 Miles
>> 10M 16.5 Miles
>> 100M 165 Miles
>> 1G 1,695 Miles
>> 10G 16,947 Miles
>> 100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
>> 1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
> How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?
On Wed, 31 May 2023, ben via cctalk wrote:
No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole, thank
you.
What is the capacity of the NSA Utah Data Center?
1 Jun
1 Jun
1:42 p.m.
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 04:26:56PM -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Well, I'm sure there are persons that could tell you, but then they
would have to kill you. And that would be bad, so let's not
risk that.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
> > I
think I will just convert file sizes to lengths of paper tape for
> > comparison:
> >
> > 1K 102.4"
> > 10K 85'
> > 100K 853'
> > 1M 1.6 Miles
> > 10M 16.5 Miles
> > 100M 165 Miles
> > 1G 1,695 Miles
> > 10G 16,947 Miles
> > 100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
> > 1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
On 2023-05-31 4:31 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
> How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?
On Wed, 31 May 2023, ben via cctalk wrote:
No. I don't want to sink into a Black Hole,
thank you.
What is the capacity of the NSA Utah Data Center?
31 May
31 May
4:24 p.m.
Paper tape
1K 12.8 cards (assuming 1 byte per column, and not reserving any columns
10k 128 cards
100K 1280 cards
1M 6.556 boxes
10M 65.56 boxes
100M 655.6 boxes
1G 6,700 boxes
10G 67,000 boxes
100G 670,000 boxes
1T 6,871,948 boxes
1K
102.4"
10K 85'
100K 853'
1M 1.6 Miles
10M 16.5 Miles
100M 165 Miles
1G 1,695 Miles
10G 16,947 Miles
100G 6.8 Earth Circumferences
1T 69.8 Earth Circumferences
How about converting that to tons of 80 column punched cards?
30 May
30 May
11:43 a.m.
On 2023-05-30 13:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still
impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life
I was looking for some files on my backup tapes, wondering if I have
enough space on my drives to simply copy the tape to the disk, and then
search. Finally hit me, that my DOS disk from back than was only 300MB :)
and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent
resolution picture of your dog this days :)
12:05 p.m.
On 2023-05-30 12:43 p.m., emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
On 2023-05-30 13:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
And from this side, playing my Japanese game, every so often in
town a dog blocks your path until you pet it. 18GB of game.
Ben.
PS. You have to feed the cat a fish. :)
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still
impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life
I was looking for some files on my backup tapes, wondering if I have
enough space on my drives to simply copy the tape to the disk, and then
search. Finally hit me, that my DOS disk from back than was only 300MB :)
and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent
resolution picture of your dog this days :)
12:11 p.m.
/Look at it from the other side: you need two RL02s for a decent
resolution picture of your dog this days :) /
That's two 10.5" platters to store in decent size digital picture!!!!
Each RL02 Platter is:
Sides: 2
Tracks: 512
TPI: 256
Sectors/Track: 40
Bytes/Sector: 256
Formatted Capacity: 10.4 MB
Who would ever need 10 megabytes of information????
Just for reference that's approx 16.5 miles of paper tape😲
11:49 a.m.
On 5/30/23 10:08 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still
impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
--Chuck
No kidding. That 64GB fingernail can easily hide in clothing, almost
making it disposable. My favorite metric is how many copies of spinning
rust at the entire computer center that I worked at in 1980 could be
stored on that card. It's probably more than 10. If you add hanging
rust (magtape) the factor drops considerably, but it's likely still over
unity. Certainly for a 1TB SSD...
I'm also amazed that I can put together a still reasonably impressive
14-year-old MacBook Pro for < $100. That's $40 for the empty laptop
as-is at a flea market, ~$15 for 8GB RAM, ~$45 for 960GB SSD. I lucked
out in that there was nothing wrong with the laptop.
--
Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com
Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage.
"Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management
Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire
11:59 a.m.
On Tue, 30 May 2023 at 19:56, Jeff Woolsey via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'm also amazed that I can put together a still reasonably impressive
14-year-old MacBook Pro for < $100. That's $40 for the empty laptop
as-is at a flea market, ~$15 for 8GB RAM, ~$45 for 960GB SSD. I lucked
out in that there was nothing wrong with the laptop.
My 2009 13" MBP was free, and that was in Czechia, not a rich land.
Dead HDD. I put a spare in, installed a new copy of the latest OS, and
after over 2 hours and dozens of reboots and several firmware updates,
had a working Macbook.
I copied the HDD onto an old SSD a friend gave me, and it was still in
use til we left the country. Battery lasted a couple of hours, too.
I'm currently working on Hackintoshing a newer laptop for my partner to use...
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884
Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
6:56 p.m.
> No kidding. That 64GB fingernail can easily hide
in clothing
On Tue, 30 May 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Or make it easily edible... Say if you were munching
on some nuts while waiting... Ask me how I know.... *sigh*
I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032 batteries;
so that you will spit it out.
10:19 p.m.
I heard that Duracell now has a "bitterant"
coating on its 2032
batteries;
so that you will spit it out.
Fred,
That's been there for a while. It is aimed at babies swallowing coin
batteries of all sorts. Mine was pure stupidity. I had spent the whole
weekend working on and rebuilding the image on an RPi that I use for a DNS
server. I took out the Micro-SD card with the plans to image it for backup.
I was munching on a bowl of nuts, tossing them back as it were, while I
checked a few last minute things and suddenly I hear a non-nutty crunch.
Spit it out and there is a tooth mark right through the Micro-SD. Apparently
what I thought was a pistachio was my Micro-SD card. Suffice to say it was
no longer working and I had no backup. Choice expletives were spewed
throughout that day.... LOL
-Ali
31 May
31 May
11:22 a.m.
On 2023-05-30 11:19 p.m., Ali via cctalk wrote:
AH! NUTS! :)
Runs and ducks...
I heard that
Duracell now has a "bitterant" coating on its 2032
batteries;
so that you will spit it out.
Fred,
That's been there for a while. It is aimed at babies swallowing coin
batteries of all sorts. Mine was pure stupidity. I had spent the whole
weekend working on and rebuilding the image on an RPi that I use for a DNS
server. I took out the Micro-SD card with the plans to image it for backup.
I was munching on a bowl of nuts, tossing them back as it were, while I
checked a few last minute things and suddenly I hear a non-nutty crunch.
Spit it out and there is a tooth mark right through the Micro-SD. Apparently
what I thought was a pistachio was my Micro-SD card. Suffice to say it was
no longer working and I had no backup. Choice expletives were spewed
throughout that day.... LOL
-Ali
30 May
30 May
11:57 a.m.
On 2023-05-30 11:08 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
"Sneakernet" or whatever, I'm still
impressed that I can spend USD$3 for
a 64GB microSD card and store the entire code output of my life and
still have lots of room left over for photos of my dogs.
--Chuck
... until it gets swallowed by the gold fish.
Ben.
11:59 a.m.
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 9:37 AM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:09 PM philip--- via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Tony can't transfer data from one computer to another via removable
magnetic media because he doesn't own the required footwear.
Sellam
I wasn't trying to solve the whole problem at once!
A lot of people have recommended "sneakernet" to connect your modern
That's an expression which always sounds odd to me. The footwear known
as 'sneakers' across the Pond is, I believe, called 'trainers' here.
But (a) on this list I'll use 'trainer' to refer to one of the
microprocessor evaluation/learning systems and (b) I've never owned
such shoes and nor do I intend to.
27 May
27 May
4:37 p.m.
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 12:52:39PM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
[...]
USB interfacing is hard, but SD cards are a lot
simpler. So use a card
reader thing to transfer the files to an SD card and design an
interface for that to ISA bus.
No need even to design anything or faff around copying files between formats
as flash-to-IDE widgets are available from the likes of AliExpress for
peanuts. Your choice of flash: CF, SD, mSATA, NVMe, there are widgets for
them all and probably some I've missed. On the IDE side you've got the chose
of male or female, 40- or 44-pin IDE. (Watch out for that "50-pin IDE" that
some of the less knowledgable sellers have, unless you actually want SCSI.)
Given free choice, I'm more inclined to go SD-to-IDE. CF cards may well
emulate IDE devices and can use a passive adaptor and so feel more
appropriate to the task, but unless you've got a nice cache of old CF cards
which aren't knackered, the cost of new ones are prohibitive as they're
intended for professional applications such as high-end digital cameras. SD
cards are dirt cheap unless you're buying them by the terabyte (and not
unreasonably expensive even then).
For the specific case of a desktop PC, there are CF-to-IDE widgets mounted
on a card slot bracket so you can swap cards without opening the machine
(but powering-down is probably wise). These are completely passive and don't
go into a slot, so can be installed in any machine it'll physically fit;
ISA, PCIe, Zorro, whatever. Depending on clearances, it might even be able
to share the same slot with a plug-in IDE controller.
SD extension cables are a thing for smaller machines without card slots. I
have one in my Amiga 1000 as the ribbon cable can be routed through quite
small gaps in the case.
23 May
23 May
7:40 a.m.
On 5/23/23 02:41, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
[1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector
disks? There
seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed
as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored
disks this is not really an issue.
Disclaimer: My business is strictly retrieving data from media--I care
not one whit for creating copies. It's not what I do.
That being said, flux-transition devices are extremely useful in this
respect. One of my first experience with them, years ago, was
retrieving source code from Future Data hard-sector disks for Lockheed.
Back then, it was a Catweasel MK I that did the work. GCR encoded
hard-sector 8" floppies.
You can read disks that no LSI controller can handle. For example,
closed-caption 8" HS floppies created on a Zilog ZDS with 132 byte
sectors for Fox Home Video.
Currently working with a bunch of Wang 2200 16-sector 8" floppies from
the executive offices of Wang using my own MCU powered device.
So can one read hard-sector floppies with all manner of weird and
wonderful encodings with flux-transition devices, I'd say that the
answer was "yes". The more difficult part is figuring out what to make
of the data.
--Chuck
9:57 a.m.
On Tue, 23 May 2023, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, May 22, 2023 at 5:25 PM js(a)cimmeri.com
<js(a)cimmeri.com> wrote:
The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images.
These Northstar images were created with it:
http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/
It's the best imaging tool out there.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
[1] Actually, do any such devices handle hard-sector disks? There
seems to be no technical reason why not, but I've never seen it listed
as a capability. But as just about all my machines use soft-sectored
disks this is not really an issue.
> I
hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
12:51 p.m.
On 5/23/23 09:57, geneb via cctalk wrote:
The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images.
These Northstar images were created with it:
http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/
It's the best imaging tool out there.
On their website, the product is sold out. I requires a Mac running
OSX. And the guts, as you might imagine are pretty normal for this sort
of thing--a Teensy 3.5 ARM board running at 120MHz.
The rest is software.
--Chuck
2:10 p.m.
On Tue, 23 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/23/23 09:57, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium at this point - the
designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x
The AppleSauce can both image and write hard-sectored images.
These Northstar images were created with it:
http://annex.retroarchive.org/disks/northstar/
It's the best imaging tool out there.
On their website, the product is sold out. I requires a Mac running
OSX. And the guts, as you might imagine are pretty normal for this sort
of thing--a Teensy 3.5 ARM board running at 120MHz.
The rest is software.
You're correct. There's none better out there either.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3:38 p.m.
On 5/23/23 14:10, geneb wrote:
Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium at
this point - the
designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x
The 4.x doesn't have 5V tolerant GPIO, which means that he'll need
level-shifters.
I note that STM32H7750vbt6 ARM7 dev boards are about 20 bucks on
Aliexpress. 450Mhz, 1MB SRAM, 128KB of program flash and just about any
peripheral you can think of--and a few you didn't. 5V tolerant GPIO,
BTW. Vendor throws in a MicroSD socket and 8MB of QSPI RAM. USB C connector.
Seems to be popular with the videocam crowd.
ARM Silicon just gets better and better. I wonder if RISC-V will
eventually overtake ARM.
--Chuck
3:44 p.m.
On Tue, 23 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/23/23 14:10, geneb wrote:
The chances of him not being aware of that are nonexistent. ;)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Yep - Teensy 3.5 boards are basically unobtainium
at this point - the
designer is working towards an update that will use the Teensy 4.x
The 4.x doesn't have 5V tolerant GPIO, which means that he'll need
level-shifters.
19 May
19 May
9:01 a.m.
On 5/19/23 04:36, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'm not so sure about a 386 and Win98. Seems to me I tried to install
98SE on a 20MHz 386 years ago and it didn't work. Said 386 has a
whopping 13MB of RAM, all located on a plug in card. The AT-sized
motherboard is nothing but SSI/MSI TTL with no custom chipsets, so no
room for RAM.
ISTR that there was a Microsoft add-on for 95OSR2, but it wasn't great.
My old Toshiba Infinia came with OSR2 and a USB "In Touch" module (I
still have about 30 of the things, but that's another story) and it was
far from standard protocol. In point of fact, if you plug the module in
to a later system with USB, it's not seen at all.
Somewhere around here, I still have the USB-to-USB file transfer gizmo;
it was very early and, of course, one can't find drivers for it.
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB)
Hang on a minute.
[1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly horribly slow.
Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release. However it 100% definitely was _not_ the 1st ver with
USB 1 support.
That was Win95 OSR2, a.k.a. Win95B, in about 1996.
--Chuck
23 May
23 May
1:45 a.m.
On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 09:01:58AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 5/19/23 04:36, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
According to this page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_98#System_requirements
the lowliest machine supported is 486 with 16MB (Windows 98) or 24MB
(Windows 98SE). However,
"Users can bypass processor requirement checks with the undocumented
/NM setup switch. This allows installation on computers with
processors as old as the Intel 80386."
But I have no way to verify this.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 20:10, Fred Cisin via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'm not so sure about a 386 and Win98. Seems to me I tried to install
98SE on a 20MHz 386 years ago and it didn't work. Said 386 has a
whopping 13MB of RAM, all located on a plug in card. The AT-sized
motherboard is nothing but SSI/MSI TTL with no custom chipsets, so no
room for RAM.
a 386 desktop running Win98SE (first version to support USB)
Hang on a minute.
[1] Win98 on a 386? Really? It might work but it will be horribly
horribly slow.
Win95 was just barely usable on a 386; I benchmarked it at release.
16 May
16 May
1:33 p.m.
I strongly recommend something like the Greaseweezle.
This is a "flux recorder" it does't know from format it just read and
write flux transitions.
There is another program that converts the flux transitions to formats.
Most formats are supported.
Including low level formats like FM, MFM, GCR, etc. As well has high
level formats like CP/M, RX01/RX02, PC, Amiga, etc.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=greasezeezle
<https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=greasezeezle>
On 5/16/2023 10:12 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
As you know I've recently restored a couple of
CP/M luggable
computers. I also have many other machines with floppy disk drives,
3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8"
The machine I connect to the internet with is a more modern laptop
runnng Windows 8.1. Essentially its only interfaces are USB ports.
I would like to be able to :
Download disk images (I assume in .IMD or .TD0 format) and write them
to real floppy disks to use in my old machnes
If possble, for the more common filesystems like MS-DOS or CP/M, be
able to work with these images on the modern PC at the file level. For
example, if I download a CP/M progam as a .COM file I'd like to be
able to put it into a disk image of a Philips P2000C disk, then
transfer that image to a real floppy and put it in a drive on the
Philips machine.
I understand there are designed based on a modern microcontroller that
connecct to a USB port and a disk drive. Software on the PC translates
between the disk image and the accurately-timed pulses corresponding
to flux transitions on the disk. This unit links to a real disk drive,
you run the software and it reads/writes a real disk in said disk
drive.
Now... I can handle a 'scope. I can handle a logic analyser. I can
handle a soldering iron. I can handle an engineer's lathe. I can
rebuld and align floppy disk drives. I can program most 8-bit micros
along with PERQ microcode, PDP11 mahine code, etc BUT I don't have a
clue when it comes to modern PCs, modern microcontrollers or USB
ports.
So what I am asking is for people to describe what to do as in :
Buy this microcontroller board
Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in the BOM to it.
Download this software and install it by doing this.
Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector
Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit back.
-tony
18 May
18 May
7:01 a.m.
Hi Tony,
I recently built the simplest "F1" version of Keir Fraser's
Greaseweazle, and it works fine with a 3.5" drive. I'm using Linux, so
my software recommendations may not be the same as you're after, but for
reference here's what I did...
Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> writes:
So what I am asking is for people to describe what to
do as in :
Buy this microcontroller board
A "blue pill" STM32F103C8T6 board. I bought a bag of 10 of these from an
eBay seller in 2016, but they are still available from many suppliers.
I've used a few of them for different projects -- they have a fast ARM
CPU and lots of IO pins, but not much RAM.
Be careful that there are also similar boards with "compatible" chips
that may or may not work. The Greaseweazle project includes a test
program that you can upload to the board (in the same way as the
firmware below) to check whether a board will work.
https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/STM32-Fakes
Buy this blank PCB and solder the components given in
the BOM to it.
The schematics for the various versions of the interface are here:
https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Design-Files
The F1 circuit is so simple that I just built it on stripboard (using a
hacksaw to split the tracks for the floppy connector). It connects the
STM32's output pins directly to the floppy drive's inputs, which
apparently doesn't work reliably with 5.25" drives; I will probably
build a version with buffered outputs at some point.
Download this software and install it by doing this.
Precompiled binaries of the Greaseweazle firmware for the STM32 are
available here:
https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle-firmware/releases/
I installed it by connecting a USB 3.3V serial adaptor to the STM32's
serial pins, moving the boot mode jumper on the STM32 board to the
programming position, pushing the reset button, and running:
stm32flash -b 115200 -w hex/greaseweazle-firmware-f1-1.3.hex /dev/ttyUSB0
That's this tool: https://sourceforge.net/p/stm32flash/wiki/Home/
I then moved the jumper back to the normal position, disconnected the
serial cable, plugged the board's USB connector into my computer, and it
initialised happily as a USB device.
(I did try building the firmware from source as well, but the result
failed to complete USB initialisation -- I probably have a newer version
of GCC than the developers are using. The Greaseweazle docs describe how
to install the firmware a different way if you have a dedicated STM32
programming device.)
Connect a standard floppy drive to this connector
I used an ex-PC 3.5" drive and cable. The F1 circuit connects all the
drive select pins together so it only supports one drive, but both
twisted and non-twisted cables will work. The fancier versions of the
circuit feed the drive selects individually.
Run the software, specify the disk image file and sit
back.
The host software, written in Python, is available here:
https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki/Download-Host-Tools
It detects the USB device automatically if it's attached -- you don't
have to configure anything.
You can read a disk into an image file, assuming the disk is in a format
that the tools know about, with a command like:
gw read --format ibm.1440 MyDisk.img
This will verify sector checksums as it goes and reread tracks if errors
are detected. You can also read the raw flux transitions by specifying
"raw" format, and process it later with disk-utilities.
You can write an image file to a disk with a similar command:
gw write --format amiga.amigados MyDisk.adf
It's also apparently possible to use David Given's FluxEngine program to
do the same kinds of thing -- I've not tried this yet but it looks
interesting:
http://cowlark.com/fluxengine/
Hope this helps,
--
Adam Sampson <ats(a)offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
324
days inactive
344
days old
171 comments
44 participants
participants (44)
-
Adam Sampson -
Adrian Godwin -
Adrian Stoness -
Alexander Schreiber -
Ali -
Antonio Carlini -
ben -
Bill Degnan -
Chris Zach -
Christian Kennedy -
Chuck Guzis -
Cory Heisterkamp -
David Arnold -
David Barto -
emanuel stiebler -
Ethan Dicks -
Fred Cisin -
geneb -
Glen Slick -
Guy Sotomayor -
Hans-Ulrich Hölscher -
Harald Arnesen -
Harten -
Jeff Woolsey -
Jim Brain -
Johan Helsingius -
Joshua Rice -
js＠cimmeri.com -
Liam Proven -
Mike Katz -
Mike Loewen -
Mike Stein -
Nigel Johnson Ham -
Paul Koning -
Peter Coghlan -
Peter Corlett -
philip＠axeside.co.uk -
Rick Bensene -
Sellam Abraham -
Tom Ivar Helbekkmo -
Tomasz Rola -
Tony Duell -
Wayne S -
wrcooke＠wrcooke.net