Museum Staff Helps Exonerate David Veney January 19, 2023, Hunt Valley, MD — Staff members of the System Source Computer Museum recently completed a project that helped exonerate David Veney, wrongly convicted of rape in 1997. In 2005, after Mr. Veney sought a new trial, the state found irregularities in the prosecution, released Mr. Veney from prison, and declined to re-prosecute. Maryland is one of 35 states that provides compensation for wrongly incarcerated people. But quirks in the law kept the law from applying in Mr. Veney’s case. In 2021, the Maryland law was amended, making Mr. Veney eligible for partial compensation for the nearly nine years he spent in prison. Still, Mr. Veney had not been exonerated.. In June 2022, the Computer Museum at System Source in Hunt Valley, MD, was contacted by Patrick Gilbert, Senior Assistant States Attorney and Chief of the Prosecution Integrity Unit, who asked “Can you read data from a 5.25” Floppy Disk?” Bob Roswell, curator of the museum, quickly replied “Of course!” It wasn’t quite that simple. In theory, the diskette contained the court stenographic records from the 1992 rape trial of Grant Jones. The transcript was thought to contain evidence that would exonerate both Mr. Jones and Mr. Veney, but the printed transcripts from 1992 had been lost. Unfortunately, the diskette was neither IBM- nor Apple-compatible. It had been written on a DEC PDP-11 minicomputer using the RSX-11 Operating System. Although the museum has a PDP-11 in its collection, it had not yet been restored and could not be started. Brendan Becker, who runs the BLOOP museum inside the Computer Museum, jumped on the problem. Brendan set up a “Greaseweazle,” a device that reads the magnetic flux transitions on the floppy disk without regard to operating systems, disk formats, or errors. The process returned a file containing long binary strings of ones and zeros. Brendan was able to decode the file structure and found that disk (despite some unreadable parts) contained the raw keystrokes that the court stenographer had recorded in the 1992 rape case using a Stenograph machine from the era. An operator of a Stenograph machine uses chords to rapidly encode conversation by creating keystrokes to represent words, syllables, and phrases. While there is some standardization, each stenographer has his/her own “theory,” which results in individual styles for different stenographers. Luckily, Patrick Gilbert was able to obtain the services of the stenographer from the original trial (now retired). Together, they were able to substantially reconstruct the transcript from the 1992 trial, using the data provided by Brendan. The recovered transcript showed weird similarities to Mr. Veney’s case. On March 4, 1992, Alice Arroyo claimed to have been raped while walking home from volunteering at homeless shelter. In her account, the assailant grabbed her shirt, ripped it open, and scratched her chest with his nails in a long, vertical raking motion. Ms. Arroyo provided police with a detailed description of her assailant including the jacket he was wearing. The following day Grant Jones walked into the Salisbury Police Department (in Wicomico County, MD) to report that his wallet had gone missing from the homeless shelter. Mr. Jones matched the description of the assailant, was arrested, and was convicted of assault with intent to rape. On September 24, 1996, Salisbury Police responded to a complaint at the home of Alice Arroyo, who stated that she had been raped. Again, she provided a detailed description of the assailant and described suffering scratches on her chest in a long vertical raking motion. On October 3, 1996, David Veney, a former neighbor, was charged with rape. He was 20 years old at the time. Mr. Veney’s first trial in April 1997 ended in a mistrial. The hung jury consisted of four jurors voting to convict and eight declaring him innocent. In September 1997, Mr Veney was retried and found guilty of various charges, including burglary, assault, battery, and rape. He was sentenced to 25 years for rape and concurrent sentences for the other offenses. In 2005, Mr. Veney sought a new trial on the basis of ineffective representation. (That lawyer was later disbarred.) When the State reviewed the case, substantial doubts about Mr. Veney’s guilt arose, including the eerie similarity in Ms. Arroyo’s testimony in the two cases. Mr. Veney was released from prison, and the State declined to re-prosecute. The reconstructed transcript of Mr. Jones’ 1992 trial proved vital in establishing Mr. Veney’s innocence. On January 13, 2023, Judge Teresa Garland awarded Mr Veney approximately $730,000, along with medical, housing, and educational benefits. The staff of the Computer Museum at System Source is proud to have played a small part in Mr. Veney’s exoneration. Bob Roswell, Curator, later learned that the state had contacted numerous other technology firms, who were unable to render assistance, before asking the Museum for assistance. The Amendment to Maryland Law Regarding Compensation for Wrongful Convictions: https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2021rs/Chapters_noln/CH_76_sb0014t.pdf Greaseweazle: https://decromancer.ca/greaseweazle/ Stenography Theories: https://www.artofchording.com/introduction/theories-and-dictionaries.html The System Source Computer Museum: Bob Roswell https://museum.syssrc.com/

Is there a public article about this? I know it's a recent announcement, but I couldn't find the article. I'm not doubting the article, just wanted to share a link with some friends about it. BTW, I've wondered if some form of stenography could be used for software development. In my mind, it would make sense to just program directly in a kind of Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) from the beginning - why bother with all the syntaxic sugar and peddling ascii text characters around a file to form a program. So now I wonder if "building" a program using an AST might be possible in VR.. you "grab" a FOR loop virtually from a box on the left, add it to your program tree, and build out from there decorating the tree.... On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 3:33 PM rar via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

Ugh, forgive me. I have no idea why I called it "Google" Scratch. It's just Scratch, and it comes out of the MIT Media Lab. Sellam On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 9:49 PM Sellam Abraham <sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:

I'm familiar with Scratch, my daughter used it in elementary. I had forgotten about it though - it seemed focused on the task of depicting and moving objects on a 2D area, not so much in general information processing (but still, yes it could be a starting point). One hallmark of a "good development environment" that someone once told me is that that development environment can be used to create itself. Like, by Borland Delphi 2, they used Delphi to create Delphi. Same on the Visual Studio development team - they compile and develop VS using VS. So, I wonder if Scratch can create itself? It's not a hard rule, just a casual observation on the "robustness" or maturity of a given development environment. There's always been a kind of "two tiers" of software developers - those who can create reusable routines (libraries) and those who can mold existing libraries to build applications. Obviously some can do both, but generally the latter get "stuck" if there isn't some existing function/routine in an API to do what they need to do -- like open a socket, start a thread, or query system time. The former tends to need to sink into OS and HW specifics. With this "blocked" code floating in VR -- the idea is then "behind the code" to show a virtualization of the resources needed by that code, to quickly get an idea of the hardware requirements (relative to how many resources it is using) and also linkages to other software, to get a feel for the overall complexity. These are important metric to see the versatility of re-using that code in other environments/platforms. And back on the stenography-keyboard like thing -- what about morphing keys? If a keyboard had actual screens on the keys, and the keys change (the actual symbol) based on the context of whatever you're doing. I know we have macros and reprogrammable keyboards, but morphing the actual symbol on the keys might be neat. Also, does any processor support a dynamic instruction set? I've wonder if some instruction-set optimizer might find improvements by indicating your program could be executed more efficiently if such-and-such instruction was available. On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 11:49 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On 2023-01-25 9:53 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: I think a whole new redesign of the keybord is needed, mostly for accent marks. And no, none of this icons for faces and other crap like print screen. (PS2 please for old computers) All the good ideas are here. http://quadibloc.com/comp/compint.htm Where is is the IMPLES logic function? EQV? Lets get updated from 1960's algol, bfore even talking about new stuff, like lower case latin letters. That includes the keyboard and display. Ben.

On 1/25/23 11:53, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: A keyboard using small 48x48 pixel OLED screens on each of the keys has been done. It was many years ago and they were super expensive at the time. As a result they were not commercially successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_Maximus_keyboard

On 1/25/2023 3:22 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: Changing keys would be rather hard on a touch typist, don't you think? bill

A touch typist probably won't notice in the first place. But anyone who isn't quite that skilled might benefit. An obvious application is when you're dealing with multiple scripts. Two can be handled with custom keycaps, but more than two would be problematic. paul

Sounds like what Apple came up with for its laptops a while ago, though in the most recent generation they dumped the idea. A somewhat similar but more primitive thing is found in the DEC VT71/t typesetting terminal, which has a row of 16 "User Defined Keys" at the top. These have double keycaps, an outer transparent plastic shell that snaps over a smaller ordinary keycap with no label. The idea is that you could make your own labels and insert them under the clear shell. Then again, a lot of users simply laid a cardboard strip with legends just above the top row: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt71t/vt71t.jpg paul

On 2023-01-26 14:15, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: And on the lk201 they finally made a strip for that :)

I believe professionals routinely achieved that speed, certainly on electric typewriters; non-electric ones would be a bit harder. Wow. Data point: the PLATO system (University of Illinois) had a typing speed test program with a challenging wrinkle: if you mistyped any letter it would erase the current word entirely so you'd have to start over. And since it was a competitive game, it kept records. Those still exist; there are a couple of entries that seem to be robots, but the highest that seems real is 122 wpm and a dozen or so are over 100. (Mine is 75.8). paul

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Of course not! Even a daisy wheel is easily capable of twice that. But, we didn't have convenient access to anything better half a century ago. I don't know what would be the fastest mechanism. Maybe a good keyboard input to a computer with a laser printer output?

On 1/26/23 13:23, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: <Pedant>A couple of years ago, that would have been true. But the Diablo Daisy-wheels date from at least 1972. You're also forgetting the thermal printers, like the TI Silent 70, which could sail along at 30 cps (1971). There were other variations. I recall a Singer terminal that used a spinning typewheel (One always ended with a page eject because the damned thing would leave a vertical smear of black ink if left unattended). Carriage was unidirectional via wormscrew rod; return was via a spring that was stretched as the carriage advanced. I couldn't find anything on bitsavers about this creature, but I used one in the early 70s.</Pedant> --Chuck

On 1/26/23 14:07, Don R wrote: The 311? Yes, at 40 cps that would certainly qualify--came in a KSR model as well. --Chuck

Wikipedia claims line printers had achieved 600 lpm by the '50s and have reached 2500 lpm On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 9:56 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

NEC also made "Thimble" printers.  These uses something similar to a daisy wheel but were more shaped like a thimble with the letters coming out up out of the center and the thimble rotated horizontally instead of vertically like the daisy wheel. On 1/26/2023 4:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote:

On 2023-01-26 3:19 p.m., Chris via cctalk wrote: Are you sure that was not that green stuff. :) Ben.

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Well. that certainly helps define fastest typewriter. But, is that we would be most interested in? What's the fastest of data input? Many factors come into play. And it doesn't have to be much faster than a Selectric before printer speed ceases to be a limiting factor. When typewriting, I am constantly looking at the keys ("where is that character?"), looking at the paper, etc. All of which should be eliminated for fast typewriting. I was barely even a "touch typist". In college, for a while, I did some temp work keypunching. I was not a fast typist, but I managed to outperform many of the other keypunchers simply becaause the first thing that I did was to look at the card format, and punch a drum card. For some reason many keypunchers think that drum cards are too technical for them to do! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: THIS! I took a typing class my freshman year of HS. I was the only guy in a room full of girls and IBM Selectrics. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

And the downside of this was...? Will

On 2023-01-27 8:19 a.m., Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: no TIME OF COURSE. :)

On 1/27/2023 2:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: My first computer printer for use on my TRS-80 was a Lorenz LO15. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49329523523_61d7a79b55_b.jpg bill

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: No, not related. The Escon typewriter conversion kits were long gone before CD-ROMs, possibly before 5150! And, by that time, Tandy offered more affordable printers, and IBM sold what seems to be a re-badged Epson MX-80, so there was no longer need desperate enough to convert Selectrics. https://vintagecomputer.ca/escon-selectric-kit/ https://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Escon/ It is unlikely, but not impossible, that there could be overlap of people involved. The company official address (and corporation) was listed as San Ramon, but warranty service was in Pleasant Hill, and there were retail sales out of Walnut Creek. Walnut Creek CD-ROM started in 1991 The first official MS-DOS support of CD-ROMs was 1984? in DOS 3.10 (that is "three point ten", not "three point one" (Int 21, function 30h returns 3 in AL and 0Ah in AH)) It included MSCDEX and used redirection; since MS-DOS did not support drives larger than 32MB until 3.31, the "redirector" made the CD-ROM look like a remote drive "on the network". Try doing a CHKDSK of a CD-ROM. MSCDEX was supported on 3.10 on, but was not included in MS-DOS distribution until 6.x, and/or Win3.11 (Win setup/install for 3.00 and 3.10 were eventually available on CD-ROM!) MSCDEX aparently uses the [undocumented] Int 2Fh network redirestor. It can be patched to work with DOS 3.00, and a few people did claim to have created programs to access CD-ROMs in DOS from 2.00 on! In addition to MSCDEX, DOS also needed drivers to access the CD-ROM drive. Those were specific to the controller card. ASPI simplified SCSI access. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: So, it was honest to label the box, "Made in USA"?

That was a common practice in those days. I remember seeing news stories about it. I "think" a law was passed in late 80s forbidding that. A lot of products now say "this box was (proudly) made in the USA. Will

I take that back about Versatec, CHM has a document from 1970 on their electrostatic printer: https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X163.83A I know that Lawrence Livermore had one and used it quite a bit back in the day. --Chuck

On 1/26/23 19:13, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Interesting.  I maintained a bunch of Versatec 1200A printers at work, and ended up with a couple of them at home.  horrible paper, like a dirty chalkboard, smelly toner, if the paper was handled before it dried the toner could come off on your hands, etc.  But, I had never seen the issue with gaps in graphics, and our drivers, especially on the Nat Semi 16032 system was VERY slow in graphics mode. When laser printers came out, I was VERRRY glad to move into the future! Jon

On 1/26/2023 5:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: We had a XEROX at West Point in the 80's that you had to stay out of the room when it was printing and binding reports.  It would staple them and then throw them across the room into a small pile.  Usually with enough force to do bodily harm. bill

On 1/26/2023 4:23 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: A half century a go I regularly typed 60WPM on my Kleinschmidt at work and my Lorenz LO50 at home.  That was as fast as they went and rhythm rather than speed was the desired objective. And, yes, even as a male I had typing in high school. bill

On 1/26/23 17:20, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: To this day, I have a memory of spending an entire class session working on rhythm on the home keys. "Class, let's begin. A S D F J K L sem, A S D F J K L sem..." The old office manual typewriters could easily jam if your rhythm was off. I didn't have the legs for shorthand. --Chuck

It seems as though MOST of us chose the typing class elective. Disproportionately more than the general population. We also probably don't have very many athletes here. Although lugging this shit around does build up some strength. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 26 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 8:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Ahem. I was league champion in shotput in 10th grade (43+ feet with an 8lb shot). But yes, mongering vintage computers builds core strength. Sellam

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 11:53 AM Chris via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: You have not met me! If I manage to kick or throw a ball, it will go about +/- 1 radian of where I would like it to go. I can run 100m in about 10 minutes. Get the idea? I''ll stick to getting my exercise by putting minicomputers into racks and carrying so-called portable computers on public transport. The only 'exercisers' in use here are the ones for disk drives and the like. -tony

It was thus said that the Great Steve Lewis via cctalk once stated: My grandfather, who served in WWII [1], knew I had an interest in computers, so he got me a portable typewriter (which I still have) and a typing book (first published in 1923) so that I may learn how to type. He said that not only would it serve me well with computers, but also in the military. [2]. I do recall there being typing classes, both in middle and high school, but never took it as a class. -spc [1] He served in the Navy, on a sub, in the Pacific. He never did talk much about his service, although I do know that at least one sub he served on was sunk by Japan. [2] He probably felt that knowing how to type would keep me from the front lines and most likely safe. Can't blame him on that logic.

On Thursday, January 26, 2023, 11:10:42 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 5:15 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I had typing as an elective class in 7th grade in 1984. It gave me the ability to type in programs faster. Sellam C: i took typing as a senior in 1985. The lady was a former military officer, in her 60s or later. Everyone was scared shirtless of her. 1 puerto rican girl who sat up front could do 90wpm. Me, I sat in the back. I'm still a very flawed typist. Iow I suck.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023, 6:56 AM Chris Zach via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.orgwrote: Roughly similar with me. But in my case, I found the "proper" finger and wrist posture that was enforced to be extremely unnatural and uncomfortable (and probably why Carpal Tunnel Syndrome became a thing). So I developed my own style that involves basically 2-3 fingers on the left hand, 1-2 fingers on the right, plus thumbs (usually the left one) for space. When I'm in the zone I can easily achieve around 80WPM with high accuracy. Sellam

On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 09:15:48AM -0800, David Barto via cctalk wrote: I took typing in high school as an elective. I loved it. I was the only guy in the class.. -- Bill Duncan, | http://billduncan.org/ bduncan(a)beachnet.org | - linux/unix/network/cloud +1 416 697-9315 | - performance engineering, SRE

In high school I had signed up for an electronics class and then my family transferred to another city. In the high school that I then enrolled in, there was no electronics class so I was given the option of another class - I chose typing, which turned out to be a great choice. Since I had started the class mid-semester I wasn't required to pass any proficiency test, so it didn't matter how fast I was. At the same time, I learned to touch-type which was perfect when I became involved with computers, as all the other programmers were doing hunt-and-peck! From: "David Barto via cctalk" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com, "David Barto" &lt;david(a)kdbarto.org&gt; Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 9:15:48 AM Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school I took typing as an elective in summer school before my senior year of high school, in preparation for typing papers at college. I failed the class because I would backspace and overtype the wrong character. In college I used UCSD Pascal on Terak’s. So I could backspace to my hearts content. Still not a very good typist, and at least now the backspace doesn’t screw up what I send out. (I took care to count the number of times I had to backspace while typing this message: 5) David

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: First draft of my Honda book was on my father's WWII manual portable typewriter. Then my co-author would edit and pay somebody to re-type, and the publisher (JMP in Santa Fe) would edit and re-type. For the nest round, I used Electric Pencil. I had a DTC-300 (Hi-Type I daisy wheel that I traded a Honda 600 for). I printed 8" wide on 15" paper. I printed two copies, 8" centered for the editor, and 8" left justified for the artist (Peter Ashwanden, the best automotive illustrator in the business). At the time, I could get 15" paper with tear off for the pin-feeds, AND perforation to tear off at 8.5" wide! They both loved the space for comments or doodles, and were quite willing to send back marked copy for me to incorporate the changes, with the artist tearing off and keeping the right side with his sketches. It wasn't until late in the project that I finally got the publisher to get a computer. They still printed out and gave printouts to their typist (150WPM!) to key into the Linoterm. I was unable at the time to write to the Linotern 8" disks. But, one time that I visited them, I connected TRS80 with Rochester Dynatyper, and did a "printout" by having the Dynatyper beat on the keys of the Linoterm. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

Speaking of good keyboards, my typing class used IBM Selectrics for the lucky people but we also had some older Underwoods and Royals in the class. You got those when you irritated the teacher. I took Typing I & II and it's worked out great as every job I've had since required lots of typing. On Fri, Jan 27, 2023 at 2:41 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Trimble! I believe that was my drill seargent typing teacher's name was. My idiot friend who sat in front (maybe even in a different class) would call her Ms. Tremble. Because she made him do that.

Chuck said There were some video terminals with mechanical Selectric keyboards, one for example being the RCA Spectra 70/752 from the mid/late 60s. For this RCA engineers substantially modified a Selectric 1 keyboard with many new bespoke mechanical parts to output 7-bit ASCII directly. The earlier RCA 6050 video data terminal and models 6051-1, 2, 3 Interrogator used a powered ASR33 keyboard, and the main console of the IBM Office System/6 workstation also used a powered Selectric keyboard. I've been working on a project for the last few years on and off to recreate this terminal's keyboard, starting with fixing a rusty seized Selectric II to operating condition then splitting the keyboard off from the power frame and powering the filter shaft with a motor in lieu of the normal print shaft gear train doing it. I machined out the RHS keyboard frame filter shaft (you can see this happening in this picture https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4862890) to accommodate a new filter shaft cycle clutch partially made from IBM spring clutch parts (not a Selectric clutch but from some other IBM device as it has a urethane drive gear on it, just like the RCA one) and a new 3D printed clone of the RCA cycle cam/anti-backlash arrangement. The cycle clutch latch rod has been moved from the centre to the right hand frame edge as RCA did. Also made a new interposer from a scrap of sheetmetal and additional bail rod from my stash of Selectric bits for RCA's Bit 7 ASCII, and put spring returns on these as this was previously done by the Whiffletree mechanism in the power frame. So I'm about 2/3rds through it. Next is to finish the cycle detent and also recreate the key interposer ASCII microswitch rack with its 50-or-so millisecond-delay steel clamping plate (RCA called it the 'storage bar') that is driven off the filter shaft via two steel crank arms pivoting on a new axle rod RCA put across the lower rear of the keyboard. The plate momentarily holds the 7 clevis rods for enough time for the terminal's electronics to strobe the microswitches. Final power is to be an old 110v IBM AC synchronous motor from the 1960s I found in my dad's collection of bits that looks identical to the RCA motor, need to make the armature aluminium fan it had and make the standoffs to the keyboard frame. The pinion on it thankfully meshes with the urethane cycle clutch gear. In the meantime I power the keyboard with a LEGO M Power Functions motor with some 3D printed brackets and a printed LEGO-tooth-compatible gear with a boss that clamps onto the filter shaft just exterior to the new cycle clutch. Been taking lots of photos but I've not done a page on this yet until there's more exciting things happening with it (ie. actual electrical encoding) however it is fun to power it up and type with a 100% genuine-action Selectric keyboard. This being: Feeling the key drop, which pushes the key lever off its detent spring, sets up the bail pattern, then the filter shaft rotating to punch the key interposer's end and move the bails, and then reset the key lever on the upstroke. All with some of that satisfying Selectric 'clunk'. I say 'some of' because in building and operating this I've realised that a lot of the Selectric 'feel' people rave about actually comes from the print shaft, tilt/rotate tapes mech, shift cam, Whiffletree and typeball movement all operating in concert (along with its sound) in a fraction of a second, the keyboard mech is only part of it. Steve.

On 1/28/23 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: How does your setup differ form the 1052 keyboard? I know that uses a modified 024 keyboard, so interposers. Under DOS/360, a user program could write a CCW string to ring the 1052 bell. If that CCW string included a TIC back to the bell-ring CCW, the bell would just keep ringing with the keyboard locked out. Fun and games, from very many years ago. --Chuck

On 1/28/23 20:20, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: Was the 1052 more or less durable than the model B adapted for the 1620? With its movable carriage, it always seemed to be in danger of self-destructing--the thing would shake a bit then a carriage return was executed. --Chuck

Paul Berger wrote: The IBM Model B electric typewriter was used as a printer and keyboard entry device on at least the Bendix G-15 (mid 1950s) and the IBM 1620 Model 1 (1959). On the G-15 it ran at about 8cps (timing was determined by the drum rotation). On the 1620-1 it ran at 10cps. And yeah, they probably took quite a beating, since many sites did not have a line printer. The 1620 Model 2 (1962) used a Model 731 Selectric and drove it at 15.5cps. Paul K

On 1/30/23 14:11, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: ...and let's not forget Gog! (1954) https://i.imgur.com/j8VsH0s.png That same flick shows a Bendix cmputer https://i.imgur.com/8ezAtKr.png Don't know what model, however--awfully early for Bendix. --Chuck

No, Chuck is correct the 1052 used a modified 024 keyboard, even through you would think it would have been an 029. Marc recently did a video on a keypunch keyboard, the 1052 one looks much the same. Mine differs a lot, the Spectra 70/752 used a Selectric mechanism, totally different to the keypunch keyboard. The Selectric keyboard is designed around doing a print cycle while the electric keypunch keyboard seems to be power driven to reduce or eliminate double-keying errors as the primary motive. I think, but am not certain. Sellam asked for a few photos of my 70/752 recreation project so here are some I just took. As I said, it's still a WIP with lots to do. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_rec… http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_rec… http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_rec… It's running, with the LEGO motor at the voltage indicated. The microswitch clevis rods will be cut to the right size once the storage bar is made. Also the 3D test prints of brackets, clutch and other parts etc. in the bags. All printed parts on the thing are white PETG. Note there is an added bit 7 bail interposer, spring return frame, clutch on the inside of the modified right frame, RCA-style mounting brackets, storage bar pivot rod, AC motor (needs a front bearing bracket made or I might just cut up the gearbox casing on it). Steve.

Welll whilst I didn't know this until yesterday, the IBM 2260 VDU had such a keyboard. There is one for sale on E-Bay https://www.ebay.com/itm/115685064067 and there are nice pictures of the keyboard. Dave

On Fri, 27 Jan 2023, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: You can only actually make them if you don't know that they are impossible until after you have made them. (Wile E. Coyote principle)

I took typing in summer school before high school freshman. After 2 weeks I was at 20 WPM. At the end of the semester, I was at 20 WPM. 🙁 I have since resorted to index and thumb on both hands. Dwight ________________________________ From: Rick Bensene via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Friday, January 27, 2023 11:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: Rick Bensene &lt;rickb(a)bensene.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Typing class in high school I took typing class in High School all four years. Because I had developed an interest in typing when I was much younger, one of my relatives had given me an old Royal typewriter when I was something like 6 years old. I was proficient with the alphabet and had a pretty good vocabulary for my age, so I started to use the typewriter to write out my ideas for various inventions that I thought up(most of which were completely impossible, but I actually did make some of them). Of course, I typed in a way that was my own creation. It was at first hunt and peck, and evolved as I got more familiar with the layout of the keyboard into my own version of touch typing. I started using a Teletype 33ASR in sixth grade for learning programming on the HP 2000C timeshared BASIC system that the county school system owned, and the familiarity with a typewriter keyboard meant that I got pretty good at typing on the Teletype - being able to type on it about as fast as the mechanism would allow. Since the vocabulary for typing in BASIC programs was fairly limited, my fingers got muscle memory on the various keywords and I could rip them out such that the interlock on the keyboard held back the pressure of the finger to type the next character in a keyword that when the mechanism finished printing, that key would immediately be depressed. About the only place I slowed down a little was typing literal text in PRINT statements, math expressions, and print formats in IMAGE statements. By the time I got to the High School typing class, I could easily type 70-80 WPM with very low error rates for extended periods of time, and could burst up to 110WPM. But, I typed in a way that was completely incorrect as far as the formal way of typing goes. After the first few weeks of class, it became apparent to the instructor that I could type quite well, as well as quite quickly, but I did it all wrong. I was the second fastest typist in the class (there was a girl in the class who was faster), but I had the lowest error rate in sustained high-speed typing. The teacher was a great guy. He was constantly on me to type the right way out of due diligence, but didn't press it, and I'd constantly ignore him. He would stand over me and watch me type, and would shake his head in both disgust, and in marvel that I could type as fast as I did using a completely bizarre method. He often told me that it was a wonder that I didn't tie my fingers into knots typing the way that I did. When it came time to grade my performance in the class, he was torn. He told me that he wanted to give me a failing grade because I did not learn the proper way to type, but at the same time because I could type all of the material very accurately and quickly, he could not help but give me an A because I performed better than the vast majority of the students in the class despite the bizarre way that I typed. I still use this strange way of typing to this day (many decades later), and can still type pretty darned fast, although my error rate has crept up quite a bit due to arthritis in my fingers, as well as general neurological degradation due to age. It works for me, and in the end, I got all As in typing class for all four years. I took the class after my Freshman year even though it was no longer required (it was required for all students to pass at least one year of typing in order to graduate, which was quite forward-thinking for those days) because I really liked the teacher, and the practice was good for keeping my speed up and error rate down, which proved very helpful for writing papers later on in High School, as well as in my computer programming classes and work after I graduated. It's always interesting to study the unusual methods that get used when people (especially young people) come up with their own ways of doing things out of interest or necessity versus what is the traditionally-trained way. I think in a lot of cases as people get into the school systems, their unique ways of doing things get trained out of them, even though their unique methods had evolved into a superior means of accomplishing something. I had a great deal of respect for this typing teacher for realizing that my unique way of typing worked very well for me, didn't affect the results of what was required, and thus left me alone and didn't try to force the "correct" way on me. It is unfortunate that the insight that this teacher had is not more common in the educational realm. RIP Al Yanzic! -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum https://oldcalculatormuseum.com Beavercreek, Oregon

On 1/31/23 10:22, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Half-inch open-reel 9 track tape seems to withstand the test of time as well as anything. The problem with the high-capacity tape used for server backup will be finding drives and controllers compatible with it in years to come. I don't know how many people, for example, squirrel away LTO drives of various types, but you're not going to read that LTO-2 tape on your LTO-9 drive. Then there's the matter of finding the apppropriate controller. 8mm and DDS drives are starting to become uncommon. And we all know the fate of QIC/Travan tapes. The rule seems to be that if you want to hang onto something, keep migrating it to newer storage. --Chuck

I thought Flash could only hold the data in them X amount of years until the junctions discharge or whatever? It's less permanent than decent quality optical or pro magnetic media? You have to plug them in every so often to refresh I believe. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole

Does REFRESHING mean reread and rewrite or just keep power to it? If it's the latter it should be trivial to setup a system with backup battery just to supply voltage to a bunch of SSD drives. -Ali

Do you know what the likely answer is for "memory sticks", SD or MicroSD cards, things like that? I assume their firmware is tiny, so are they likely to need active refreshing? paul

I just checked and I can still read without error some 8" disks that I wrote, what, 45 years ago. They were FM 3740-type format and good quality, so there's that. As to the value of the 8080 code that I wrote, not so much. This was only possible because I wrote the disks in a commonly-used format on a relatively common medium. Had I opted to use Memorex 651 media, it might well be gone forever. I haven't seen a 651 drive in years. Which is why I wasn't joking about using 9 track 1/2" tape. Many millions of reels of the stuff were in use right up into the 1980s. The drives are not unobtanium and the medium is pretty rugged. Had I used 7-track tape, I would still not be out of luck, but only because I have a 7 track drive, which is far less common these days. Just some food for thought. --Chuck

Hmmm.. I wonder if there is a program akin to Spinrite that will do that on SSDs (i.e. reread and rewrite every byte). I know Steve Gibson is working on a new version of Spinrite that will work with SSDs so that could be the solution when it comes out... -Ali

On 1/31/23 18:27, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Linux, that would be: cp -r / /dev/null I think that you really don't want to rewrite SSDs. As I understand the wear-leveling technology, it's unlikely that you'll write the same sector/block that you read. Basically Heraclitus and rivers. --CHuck

On 1/31/23 20:16, Ali via cctalk wrote: If you look at the specs for SSDs or any flash medium for that matter, they're rated in terms of *write* cycles, which is why you don't want to abuse that. However, it may well be that writing is the only way to refresh cells, as reading won't, if I understand flash operation correctly. But rewriting a sector or block of a file doesn't usually write back to the original, because of the write-leveling firmware in the drive. JEDEC requires data retention of a consumer drive for at least 1 year, which doesn't sound like much; real retention is probably much longer. You can write a script that write-refreshes every file on the drive. The easiest thing is to buy a second drive and ping-pong the data between them periodically. That way, if one fails, you still have the other for backup. FWIW, Chuck

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 1:41 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Indeed. It triggers the usual reliability engine in the drive. All data in NAND is stored with a number of redundant bits so that up to N errors can happen and the data can be recovered. All NAND has a read error signal that triggers well below N so that the data is all read and reconstructed (this is normal on all reads), so it can then be written directly to the new space. Also, this isn't usually done on a PAGE pasis inside the NAND, but on an entire erase block basis, because it's a leading indicator of problems to come. Writing this data to a freshly erased block will mena it can be read for some time into the future. Right. The OS might not have a choice. All the SSDs that I've used in the past decade at $WORK have not exposed any of this to the host, not even enough stats to know when it's going on in real time... let alone the ability to pause these operations for a little while until we're off peak for the day... And JEDEC retention is also at 20C, when the NAND is maximally worn, with certain data access / write patterns leading up to that wear. Most other wear patterns, especially archival ones, can lead one to expect a much longer retention in all but the tiniest processes storing 3 or 4 bits per cell. It would be even worse: since it could also trigger additional writes as the new LBAs are written because the old erase blocks they are in are now almost empty and new erase blocks will be needed to write the new LBAs that are flooding the drive. The writes, and the amplification writes will cause way more wear and tear on the drive than doing a read scan of the whole drive (assuming you are impatient about leaving the drive powered for the internal refresh...) c) You have less wear on both drives. While a read could trigger a move due to read disturb, but that's only after tens of thousands (or more) reads. Warner

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 10:13 AM emanuel stiebler &lt;emu(a)e-bbes.com&gt; wrote: That's selectable at the controller level... But there's no standard way for the OS to turn that from one to the other... Unless you go all in and do all the management which some NVMe drives support (not the ones we buy, mind you, since this is an 'enterprise' feature and we buy in the 'consumer' space). We'd like to be able to do that, but the drives we buy don't expose those knobs, despite buying many different models over the years from the same vendors and developing a close relationship with them in which we ask for it every chance we get... Warner

Chuck, But does that matter? If the main purpose is to be able to refresh the data so it is readable does it matter that the data is not in the same block as long as it is readable? -Ali

On Wed, 1 Feb 2023, Ali via cctalk wrote: Ah, but most of that sort of memory has a finite number of cycles, and wears out due to use. Testing it is heavy usage, and brings about an even earlier end of life. Could we call that a "nosocomial" ("not so comical") deterioratoin :-? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023, 2:52 PM Paul Koning via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Read disturb in NAND is a thing. However, it kicks in after millions or hundreds of millions of page reads in a single EB. Most FTLs I've seen will treat this like any other "too many bits in error" read when it happens. Some drives keep track and do things with voltage thresholds to compensate. A few try to proactively garbage collect, though the benefits of that are slim to nil for most workloads. Warner P.S. some QLC NAND has worse read disturb, but it's only 100x worse. It can come up for high volume applications but not for simple archival reading. If all else fails there's core memory, which as far as I remember is pretty

On 2/1/23 22:10, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: I have extreme doubts that this is true.  Memory cores are just tiny versions of pulse transformers, and similar square loop transformer core materials are used in switching power supplies that run for decades at high switching frequencies.  Really, FRAM does not work much similarly to core.  The ferroelectric material is usually lead zirconate titanate, not an actual ferromagnetic material.  It is written by an electric field, not magnetic, and the electric field is sensed by a field effect transistor.  I have NEVER heard of core wear-out in magnetic core memories.  The flipping of the magnetic polarization in ferrite materials does not break down the crystal structure. Jon Jon

This discussion on core memory got me thinking: Is it possible to "read" core memory by examining each core using some kind of instrument that would sense its "charge" (or lack thereof) non-destructively? Could a piece of paper be placed over a core plane and fine particles of iron sprinkled onto the paper to literally "see" the bits? Please excuse me for any ignorant assumptions made here on my part. Sellam

That's a very good question. The difficulty with doing this isn't that the core states are "magnetized" and "not magnetized" but rather they are "magnetized in one direction" and "magnetized in the other direction". So flux-visualizing won't help because 1 and 0 will look the same. The other problem is that a toroidal core, by design, constrains nearly all the magnetic flux inside the core material, with very little "leakage". That said, it would be an interesting experiment to take a core memory module and hold a small Hall effect probe up against the cores, especially inside the core opening. I don't know if those sensors can be sensitive enough to pick up the leakage flux. If yes, it may well depend on the core diameter; the later generations tended to have smaller cores for both density and speed. CDC mainframe cores are probably small for the time, I don't remember seeing the numbers. paul

The actual ferrite core doughnuts do not break down with continued use, BUT moisture or mechanical impact or vibration will damage or degrade the ferrite cores. Otherwise the ferrite doughnut will live and maintain its properties "forever". The main cause of core memory mat faults is mechanical strain on the X/Y, sense and inhibit wires. This mechanical strain is caused by use and can be made worse by particular usage patterns causing the core memory mat to vibrate producing an audible ring. CDC's Extended Core Storage (ECS) cabinets had a characteristic sound when you opened the doors. Early on CDC 6000 series machines had a lot of reliability problems with core memory, but eventually there was an ECO where the core memory modules were immersed in potting compound to make the core mat rigid to prevent any vibration. This made the once fragile core perform perfectly for the remaining life of the machine. The core memory in my PDP-8/e machines (H212 board) has the ferrite donuts glued to the PCB via some white adhesive presumably to reduce vibrations. Encasing the core mat in potting resin would have been the better solution as it binds the wires to the ferrite doughnuts. Tom On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 11:17 PM Jon Elson via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Chuck, the CDC 7600 duty cycle integrator is really a work-around against overheating and has nothing to do with core reliability and/or endurance. Core and the data stored in it lives "forever" if the operating constraints of the medium are adhered to (temperature being one of the constraints). The 7600 was able to push core access past these constraints, hence needed the duty cycle integrator. Different physical design and/or better cooling could have been alternatives, but the duty cycle integrator was an easy fix once the machine was out in the field and core memory started failing due to overheating. Core written in the 60s would read just fine today unless something external to it destroyed the data. Tom On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 2:12 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Fri, Feb 3, 2023 at 4:45 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: True 'bit rot' !

Yes. The thresholds shift with temperature. Some companines (DEC?) used temperature-compensated amplifiers to address the issue. IBM, on some models like the 1620, kept the cores at a constant (elevated) temperature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory#Physical_characteristics Will I do not think you can name many great inventions that have been made by married men. Nikola Tesla

On 2/3/23 08:25, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Yes, it does.  Maybe on earlier memories it was worse, but most later core systems had a thermistor in the core plane, and it adjusted the half-select current to put it right in the middle of the range of susceptance (is that the right term?) for that temperature. My recollection is the 1620 had the core planes in a tank of oil, and the 360/50 had a heater in the air stream flowing past the local store core stack. Jon

On Tuesday, January 31, 2023, 02:02:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Much of what is known about StoneHenge is purely speculation. (although I have a trivially simple hypothesis about HOW "they managed incredible calculations" for the placement of the stones.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com C: I'm all ears. I myself had arrived at a plausible explanation for crop circles. Apart from creation by humans or any other species. I was told "they" were proven to be fraudulent though. I don't know.

addendum: The solstice sticks are not due to observation and planning. Just needed a little shade when watching the sunset from my hammock. Building anothe sundial. I found some garden gnome, and one with a pointy head that can cast a shadow. But, he's kinda Jamaican. So, I make a sign that says, "Gnomes?? No mon, We're gnomen"

On Tue, 31 Jan 2023, skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com wrote: That is the best example of how *not to quote* ! Christian

I don't remember if RW (erasable) DVDs exist, or if that is only offered for CD blanks. As I understand it, the RW technology has nowhere the longevity of the write-once kind. Makes sense since those are reversible, which suggests that the reversing might happen gradually in storage, similar to the way that NVRAM (flash memory) gradually fades which OTP ROMs tend to last forever unless they have a process defect. paul