17 Oct
2022
17 Oct
'22
11:47 a.m.
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps erronous)
claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP
machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit
series, that there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet
Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10
machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
17 Oct
17 Oct
11:57 a.m.
On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the
cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR
via India who had no problems with violating their agreements
with their allies.
Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the
VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country
in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC.
bill
3:40 p.m.
On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been
confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in the
Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and was
destined for South Africa. Its true destination was somewhere else,
probably Russia. It didn't make sense that the auction was open to the
public, but the equipment was export restricted.
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made
the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was
cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite
poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones.
Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the
cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR
via India who had no problems with violating their agreements
with their allies.
Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the
VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country
in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC.
bill
4:12 p.m.
IIRC a broker in Toronto was arrested for illegally shipping a black
market VAX to the USSR. The sad part of it was that it would have been
quote a legal end-use if the appropriate paperwork was done, but this
made it four times the price!,
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
On 2022-10-17 18:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made
>>> the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was
>>> cloned by the Soviets.
>>>
>>> I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite
>>> poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones.
>>> Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
>>
>> I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the
>> cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR
>> via India who had no problems with violating their agreements
>> with their allies.
>>
>> Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the
>> VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country
>> in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC.
>>
>> bill
>>
> In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been
> confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in
> the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and
> was destined for South Africa. Its true destination was somewhere
> else, probably Russia. It didn't make sense that the auction was open
> to the public, but the equipment was export restricted.
>
29 Oct
29 Oct
11:39 p.m.
On 2022-10-18 00:40, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
On 10/17/2022 2:57 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
This was a fairly big deal in Sweden as one of the bad actors was a
Swedish company and Swedish customs stopped the shipment. It was called
something like ”container gate”.
I haven’t found any english sources I’m afraid:
https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containeraff%C3%A4ren
/P
On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
In the mid 1980's I went to inspect a complete VAX 780 that had been
confiscated by the US Gov't and was to be auctioned off. This was in
the Wash DC area and the computer was configured for 50Hz power and
was destined for South Africa. Its true destination was somewhere
else, probably Russia. It didn't make sense that the auction was open
to the public, but the equipment was export restricted. Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made
the (perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was
cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite
poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones.
Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the
cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR
via India who had no problems with violating their agreements
with their allies.
Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the
VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country
in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC.
bill
4 Dec
4 Dec
11:32 a.m.
Hi all,
The Hungarian Central Institute of Physics (KFKI) in Soviet times
used to make PDP and VAX clones branded as "TPA":
http://hampage.hu/tpa/e_index.html
Kudos to Ákos Varga "Hamster", one of the earliest Hungarian
DEC collectors for preserving this information back in the '90s.
Regards,
Sab
On Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:57:52 -0400
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/17/22 14:47, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
--
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
I am not aware of any VAX clones but during the height of the
cold war real VAX were frequently illegally moved to the USSR
via India who had no problems with violating their agreements
with their allies.
Just like someone in the US bought a copy of BSD Unix for the
VAX and it was known to have been smuggled out of the country
in a diplomatic pouch via the Russian Embassy in DC.
bill
7:11 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters
on the eBay.
I have two of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332
I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h.
I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted
an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350.
I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price
to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy
has bid $350.
Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got
them for free at a trade show.
- John
8:34 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I
probably got
them for free at a trade show.
Two idiots? I mean if I bought one poster for $95 and the same seller had a
second one I would offer $95 for it again. Why would you offer $300 and then
up it to $500?
-Ali
8:52 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
There are a few possible scenarios, . . .
you hang it up in your cubicle, and your boss says, "I've got to have one
of those! I'd pay many hundreds of dollars, DON'T LET IT GET AWAY!,..."
I remember when the advertising outfit came around in Berkeley (they did
them in every town). I did not pay the money to get my business on it.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Sun, 4 Dec 2022, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I
probably got
them for free at a trade show.
Two idiots? I mean if I bought one poster for $95 and the same seller had a
second one I would offer $95 for it again. Why would you offer $300 and then
up it to $500?
-Ali 
8:50 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Actually pretty smart. You probably should have worked for Commodore Amiga marketing.
Where is Commodore Amiga in the map ?
-------- Original message --------From: John Foust via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 12/4/22 9:44 PM (GMT-06:00) To:
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> Subject: [cctalk] Old
Silicon Valley poster I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling
posterson the eBay.I have two of these:https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332I sold one of
these posters last week for $95+20 s/h. I listed the second one and the buyer of the
first one submitted an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350.I
declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price to $350 because no one
had yet bid, and now the second guy has bid $350. Not to humble brag, but what do I have
here? I probably got them for free at a trade show.- John
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
For someplace that actually generates some tourist and souvenir traffic,
it made sense.
It is negligible cost to produce, and is a much easier sell for
Professor Harold Hill than convincing the townfolk that they need to start
a youth band to counteract the trouble, right here in River City, of the
pool hall.
"You don't want YOUR business to be left off of the map"
But when they do a "chamber of commerce" sell for every town and exceed
saturation it doesn't work so well. Berkeley, Albany, El Cerrito, . . .
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:13 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On 12/4/22 21:34, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
For someplace that actually generates some tourist and
souvenir traffic,
it made sense.
That's the funny thing about posters--some lapse into "what the heck was
that about?"
For example, I have a Cray 2 "Bubbles" poster that's been moldering in a
closet for a couple of decades. I wonder how many today even remember
the Cray 2.
--Chuck
11:20 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
It would be cool if those could be scanned before disappearing
somewhere.
-Alex
On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:11:44PM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters
on the eBay.
I have two of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332
I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h.
I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted
an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350.
I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price
to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy
has bid $350.
Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got
them for free at a trade show.
- John
5 Dec
5 Dec
12:07 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEE ETC. . The SF. Episode that ran. That poster
was in it I believe
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 12:27 AM, Alexander Huemer via
cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: It would be cool if those could be scanned
before disappearing
somewhere.
-Alex
On Sun, Dec 04, 2022 at 09:11:44PM -0600, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
I'm cleaning out my warehouse bit by bit, and started selling posters
on the eBay.
I have two of these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334649989332
I sold one of these posters last week for $95+20 s/h.
I listed the second one and the buyer of the first one submitted
an offer for $300 and then for $500. Then a second guy offered $350.
I declined all three, then did the rotten move of jacking the price
to $350 because no one had yet bid, and now the second guy
has bid $350.
Not to humble brag, but what do I have here? I probably got
them for free at a trade show.
- John
6:48 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote:
Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEEÂ ETC. . The
SF. Episode that ran. That poster was in it I believeÂ
I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00.
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3
Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on
companies that are there?
- John
6:50 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
There's got to be a copyright date hidden somewhere in it.
Sellam
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022, 6:49 AM John Foust via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote:
Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEEÂ ETC. .
The SF. Episode that
ran. That poster was in it I believeÂ
I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00.
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3
Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on
companies that are there?
- John
5:56 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
At 01:20 AM 12/5/2022, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
It would be cool if those could be scanned before
disappearing
somewhere.
Yes, I have considered that. I have an Epson V850 Pro flatbed.
I'd need to scan it carefully in pieces and then use some kind
of stitching tool. I use Microsoft ICE for pictures.
I have an architectural client with a large format printer that
can also scan, but I think it's only 300 DPI.
The only credit I see on it is "PhotoGraphics." No idea if
they're still around. They'd still have copyright, so I couldn't
really reproduce it.
- John
6:53 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the
years. Some as posters, some as calendars.
David
On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
It would be cool if those could be scanned before
disappearing
somewhere.
-Alex
6:56 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I think this is pretty cool map; I've seen different versions too in publications like
Computerworld and EE Times (long ago of course). I wonder if an interactive map exists
somewhere, like overlaying all of the old addresses in Google Maps or something like
that.
Rich
On 12/5/22, 9:54 AM, "David Williams via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the
years. Some as posters, some as calendars.
David
On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
It would be cool if those could be scanned before
disappearing
somewhere.
-Alex
7:13 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Fry's also used to publish these maps, if this is what I think it is.
On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:56 PM Richard Cini via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I think this is pretty cool map; I've seen different versions too in publications
like Computerworld and EE Times (long ago of course). I wonder if an interactive map
exists somewhere, like overlaying all of the old addresses in Google Maps or something
like that.
Rich
On 12/5/22, 9:54 AM, "David Williams via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I've seen several different versions of this map on archive.org over the
years. Some as posters, some as calendars.
David
On 12/5/2022 1:20 AM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
--
-Jon
+44 7792 149029
It would be cool if those could be scanned before
disappearing
somewhere.
-Alex
10 Dec
10 Dec
3:27 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
- John
4:59 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
bill
5 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many
for sale ...
Warner
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
5:18 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Would that reduce its
auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many
for sale ...
Warner
On
12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
6:35 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On 12/10/2022 7:18 PM, Don R via cctalk wrote:
I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to
archive.org. Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
It has been posted to archive.org in various different versions.
David Williams
7:07 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
It's an ugly poster imo. Useful info on price in case I ever see one at a
garage sale but that's about it :-)
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 6:35 PM David Williams via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/10/2022 7:18 PM, Don R via cctalk wrote:
I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload
to archive.org. Would
that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
It has been posted to archive.org in various different versions.
David Williams
11 Dec
11 Dec
10:37 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Would that reduce its
auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many
for sale ...
Warner
On
12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org.
Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
many
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
>>
>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why
it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting
them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
for sale ...
Warner
12:19 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in the pawn stars do
America series that aired a week or so before the list member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org. Would that reduce its
auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't many
for sale ...
Warner
On
12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
4:45 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd
still like to watch that.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE <couryhouse(a)aol.com> wrote:
Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San
Francisco in the
pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list
member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham
<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to archive.org.
Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
many
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
>>
>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why
it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting
them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
for sale ...
Warner
5:20 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On Sun, 11 Dec 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue
and annoying personalities.
An importaant insight. It is "Antiques Roadshow" with "It's worth THAT
much??!?" replaced with "Is that all that it's worth?"
Some of the ducumentary material that used to be aired on the "History"
channel has now been showing up on their spinoff "Story" channel.
I like "Modern Marvels", except for the cringe-worthy shot in their
credits where they do extreme abuse/misuse of a "Crescent"/adjustable
wrench.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:27 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 4:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Sure but most Fox News viewers are unable to tune their TVs into PBS, so
they need an alternative :)
11:20 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I
assume is the poster.
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-….
They are asking $799.00.
In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball
machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd
still like to watch that.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE <couryhouse(a)aol.com> wrote:
Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held
in San Francisco in the
pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list
member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham
<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for
upload to archive.org.
Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
many
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
>>
>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why
it
> was
popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
> them with an eye on the future."
>
> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
>
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
for sale ...
Warner
11:49 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
Yes that !s what I saw! But tie that to an episode now
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 12:20 AM, John Herron via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote: I haven't found the episode yet but this is their website with what I
assume is the poster.
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-….
They are asking $799.00.
In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball
machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd
still like to watch that.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE <couryhouse(a)aol.com> wrote:
Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held
in San Francisco in the
pawn stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list
member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham
<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for
upload to archive.org.
Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
many
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
>>
>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why
it
> was
popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
> them with an eye on the future."
>
> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
>
I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
part with it!!)
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
for sale ...
Warner
12 Dec
12 Dec
4:12 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On 12/12/22 02:20, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
I haven't found the episode yet but this is their
website with what I
assume is the poster.
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-….
They are asking $799.00.
In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
Wasn't that the retail price back in the 80's? :-)
bill
11:26 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
> I haven't found the episode yet but this is
their website with what I
> assume is the poster.
>
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-….
> They are asking $799.00.
> In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
On Mon, 12 Dec 2022, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Wasn't that the retail price back in the 80's?
:-)
By similar logic, an Apple I should sell for $666.66
That is not a TRS-80 Model 3.
That is a TRS-80 model 4.
Differences include:
[VISIBLE] white/beige instead of gray/grey/"Mercedes Silver"
{VISIBLE] Nameplate between drives says "Radio Shack TRS-80 MODEL 4
MICROCOMPUTER" (you can get that nameplate on eBay for $12)
80x24 display,
revised memory mapping, capable of CP/M; "CP/M Plus" sold at RS.
keyboard differences, including control key
changes on the motherboard with several variations, (gate array, socket
for Z80), rearrangement of connectors, etc.)
Bare machine was, indeed, in that price range (I think that it might have
been $599), but Radio Shack didn't like selling it that way. This one, and
what they usually sold, has two disk drives, and was $1699 (a lot of
money for RAM chips and drives)
Our college administrators [should all be defenestrated] paid the same
price as new model 4's to have Radio Shack upgrade a few dozen model 3's
into model 4's (Our student lab-techs were quite capable of swapping
drives, and had pleaded to have them purchase BARE model 4's (at the same
price), and let the student lab-techs install drives from the model 3's,
or buy more drives, thereby doubling the number of available machines)
There were people WAITING for a turn to use VisiCalc, Electric Pencil, and
Scripsit.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:53 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
No wonder the prices on vintage computer stuff has been going through the
roof on eBay over the past couple years.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 11:20 PM John Herron via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I haven't found the episode yet but this is their
website with what I
assume is the poster.
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-…
.
They are asking $799.00.
In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
archive.org.
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball
machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad
dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd
still like to watch that.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE <couryhouse(a)aol.com> wrote:
> Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in
the
pawn
stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list
member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham
<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to
> Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
>
> Don Resor
>
> Sent from someone's iPhone
>
> > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to
pay
> >>> about another $200 for the eBay
global shipping program and duties.
> >>>
> >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and
why
it
>> was popular... he said "Dealers are
collecting them and
>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
>> them with an eye on the future."
>>
>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
>>
>
> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
> part with it!!)
>
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
many
for sale ...
Warner
>
8:04 a.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
It's an Apple branded Silicon Valley poster, which explains the unbridled
hype. There are many variations of this poster, over many years.
I doubt just any old Silicon Valley poster would be fawned over as this one
has been by the Pawn Stars clowns. Then again, people generally aren't very
discerning in regards to stuff like this, so it's possible that they're
establishing a floor in old computer poster prices.
Get them while they're still cheap, folks.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 11:20 PM John Herron via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I haven't found the episode yet but this is their
website with what I
assume is the poster.
https://gspawn.com/products/apple-computer-poster-map-of-silicon-valley-in-…
.
They are asking $799.00.
In comparison they are also asking $699 for a trs-80 model 3.
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022, 6:46 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
archive.org.
Thanks for the tip.
I found the episode ==>
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-4
I watched through the entire insidious thing. Unfortunately, the Silicon
Valley poster never comes up.
However, there is a Apple ][+ that they buy for $700 (lol) at timemark
1:55, and at 17:21 some jabronis bring in some mini stand-up arcade games
and then they eventually end up in their warehouse full of pinball
machines.
What an obnoxious show. It's just Antiques Roadshow but with bad
dialogue
and annoying personalities.
Regardless, if you can remember which episode the poster was in, I'd
still like to watch that.
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:19 PM ED SHARPE <couryhouse(a)aol.com> wrote:
> Sellam, Yes the episode was there special held in San Francisco in
the
pawn
stars do America series that aired a week or so before the list
member was selling these? Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aol.mobile.aolapp>
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 12:40 PM, Sellam Abraham
<sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ed,
Do you remember the episode?
Sellam
On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 10:37 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price
up.Ed#
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 6:18 PM, Don R via cctalk<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote: I’m surprised no one has scanned one for upload to
> Would that reduce its auction value? ;)
>
> Don Resor
>
> Sent from someone's iPhone
>
> > On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:01 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022, 5:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >>> On 12/10/22 18:27, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to
pay
> >>> about another $200 for the eBay
global shipping program and duties.
> >>>
> >>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and
why
it
>> was popular... he said "Dealers are
collecting them and
>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
>> them with an eye on the future."
>>
>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
>>
>
> I wonder what my Unix Wizard poster is worth? (not that I would ever
> part with it!!)
>
Last I priced mine, they were going for 100-200 USD. But there aren't
many
for sale ...
Warner
>
11 Dec
11 Dec
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
At 12:37 PM 12/11/2022, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
Having a good hi Def scan would indeed be nice.
Having this thing show up on pawn stars probably helped kick the price up.Ed#
Again, I wanted the San Francisco episode you mentioned and
I don't see this poster there. Can you point to it?
- John
At 08:48 AM 12/5/2022, John Foust wrote:
At 02:07 AM 12/5/2022, you wrote:
Watch PAWN stars do America WITH CHUM LEEÂ ETC. .
The SF. Episode that ran. That poster was in it I believeÂ
I don't see it. I see a guy with sci-fi posters at 38:00.
https://play.history.com/shows/pawn-stars-do-america/season-1/episode-3
Does anyone have a guess of its date of creation, based on
companies that are there?
- John
10 Dec
10 Dec
5:03 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I wonder how accurate the map would be in present times, with all of the mergers,
takeovers and acquisitions.
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Dec 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
- John
5:18 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
If there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx shop
and getting a high quality wide format scan.
Steve
On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and
he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
- John
5:23 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
The one problem with that is how compressed the default scanning rate is set too.
I once asked if a oversized image could be scanned at a high quality scan rate of my
choice and was told no, it would be scanned at a preset default.
Often times it’s the lowest denominator, unless you can do use a walk up scanner and make
all adjustments yourself.
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:18 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
If there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx shop and getting
a high quality wide format scan.
Steve
On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk
wrote:
Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
them with an eye on the future."
I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
- John
5:52 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
I've always been allowed to do my own when asked. Their standard max
seems to be 600dpi raw tiff. But, you are correct - if THEY do it, you
get one of a couple preset functions - and usually pdf or jpg.
Steve
On 12/10/22 5:23 PM, Don R wrote:
The one problem with that is how compressed the
default scanning rate is set too.
I once asked if a oversized image could be scanned at a high quality scan rate of my
choice and was told no, it would be scanned at a preset default.
Often times it’s the lowest denominator, unless you can do use a walk up scanner and make
all adjustments yourself.
Don Resor
Sent from someone's iPhone
> On Dec 10, 2022, at 5:18 PM, steve shumaker via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>
> If there's that much interest, it might be worth taking to a FedEx shop and
getting a high quality wide format scan.
>
> Steve
>
>> On 12/10/22 3:27 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>> Well, she went for $810 to a map dealer in London, and he had to pay
>> about another $200 for the eBay global shipping program and duties.
>>
>> I asked one of the other losing bidders about what I had here and why it
>> was popular... he said "Dealers are collecting them and
>> trying to sell them at various price points. So far sales
>> have been pretty minimal at anything over $1000. The
>> exception is that some libraries are starting to collect
>> them with an eye on the future."
>>
>> I'll see if I can stitch a good scan before I ship it out.
>>
>> - John
>>
11 Dec
11 Dec
4:25 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
At 07:18 PM 12/10/2022, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:
If there's that much interest, it might be worth
taking to a FedEx shop and getting a high quality wide format scan.
Their web site locator didn't specifically let me find which offices
can do large format scanning. It also didn't say what resolution
they can do.
I have an architect client who'd let me use his blueprint scanner/printer,
but I think it's only 300 DPI.
- John
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Old Silicon Valley poster
On 12/11/2022 7:25 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Their web site locator didn't specifically let me find which offices
can do large format scanning. It also didn't say what resolution
they can do.
I have an architect client who'd let me use his blueprint scanner/printer,
but I think it's only 300 DPI.
- John
300 dpi is more than sufficient, since the image size itself should be
very large.
4 Dec
4 Dec
11:51 p.m.
About 5 years ago I saved these pics off eBay of what looked to me like an Eastern Bloc
PDP-11/15 console.
As I have a (rebadged) 11/15, I thought they were interesting.
These aren't my photos, I don't own them, saved for educational purposes only.
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_…
Steve.
17 Oct
17 Oct
noon
On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11
clones, and depite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones.
Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic lettering is
the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the very best".
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence
of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather
lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have been less demand for an
18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no
attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Here's something:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Computer_Factory
That's not the only Soviet clone factory, but it's an interesting one. I have a
brochure from them, which I think I got when they visited DEC in the 1980s (which takes
some chutzpah!). The brochure is not all that clear, but the Wikipedia article says their
32-bit machine "SM 1700" is a VAX clone. Apparently a number of their other
machines were not clones but original designs.
paul
11:57 p.m.
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. There are the DVKs https://www.wikiwand.com/en/DVK,
the Elektronika BK Homecomputer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronika_BK
or the school computer UKNS
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/UKNC
(C means an S in cyrillic letters)
I own an Elektronika E60 which is an LSI11 Computer, but all Connectors
and Board dimensions are metric. The PCB's are not "clones", that are
developments from USSR with their own chips.
This was the machine on which tetris got developed!
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.
Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an
Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU
Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers.
Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own
chips.
The K1801VM3 can address 4Mbyte of Memory.
This is an Elektronika MK90 using an CMOS H1806VM2 CPU.. not really
a clone ehy?
https://elektronika.su/en/calculators/elektronika-mk-90/
MK85 is a smaller variant.
Same for the GDR, There was an PDP11 build from 8 Bit Bitslice
Processors, the Robotron K1600. They used 2708 like Eproms for the
Control store and the sequencers...this was the worlds slowest PDP11..
For a relativly short Time I was Adminstrator on a Robotron K1840
at the university of mining in Freiberg. The RVS K1840 was a direct
Clone of a DEC VAX11/780, Boards where interchangeable with the
original.
Later the ZMD Dresden produced a clone of the VAX 78032 Chip, the
U80701. This is a MV-II CPU.
Sorry, I have no idea about PDP8 or PDP10 clones.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones. I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11
clones, and depite poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones.
Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic lettering is
the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the very best". However, i’m
curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being
cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that
there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i
find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10 machines would
have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Here's something:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Computer_Factory
That's not the only Soviet clone factory, but it's an interesting one. I have a
brochure from them, which I think I got when they visited DEC in the 1980s (which takes
some chutzpah!). The brochure is not all that clear, but the Wikipedia article says their
32-bit machine "SM 1700" is a VAX clone. Apparently a number of their other
machines were not clones but original designs.
paul
18 Oct
18 Oct
12:27 a.m.
Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
[..]
For the GDR I don't know of any PDP8 clones, There was the "Kleinrechner
Systeme K4100 and K4200", don't know much about the first one, but the
2nd was compatible to the honeywell DDP516 Series, no clone in any way,
they are totally different from the in- and the outside. The Bigger
machines from the ESER Series Mainfraimes where compatible to the 3270
but no "clones" either.
For the Robotron K1630 (K1600 PDP11 systems) existed an Hardware
emulator PCB set that could emulate the K4200 on this machine..faster
then the original.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
6:18 a.m.
On Oct 18, 2022, at 2:57 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I assume the story about the message is accurate (I heard it from a senior guy at DEC who
should know) but that doesn't mean it was actually cloned. It seems to be an engineer
reaction to hearing about their earlier work being stolen.
paul
...
You probably have heard of the CVAX chip, where on the mask in microscopic lettering is
the message, in Russian: "CVAX -- when you want to steal the very best".
Yes, but this was nonsense, the first VAX CPU Chip from USSR was an
Equivalent of an VAX11/750..but the VAX11/750 never hat an single CPU
Chip! The CPU consisted of large Boards full of TTL and Sequencers.
Sorry...no clone. They used the DEC Processor Manual and build their own
chips. 
7 a.m.
On 18/10/2022 14:18, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I assume the story about the message is accurate (I
heard it from a senior guy at DEC who should know) but that doesn't mean it was
actually cloned. It seems to be an engineer reaction to hearing about their earlier work
being stolen.
paul
Unless someone has gone to a good deal of trouble, then the story is
true: https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html
Given what has been done for the Z80 and 6502, it should be possible to
recreate an exact clone of a CVAX with just a little effort (:-)). I
wonder if anyone has considered a MiSTer core for it?
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio(a)acarlini.com
7:01 a.m.
On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.
J11?
--Toby
On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
7:57 a.m.
On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
Single package, multiple die. Same goes for F11.
paul
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Yes.
But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.
J11? On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
8:45 a.m.
On 2022-10-18 10:57 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Oops, yes forgot about that. More coffee needed.
--T
On Oct 18, 2022, at 10:01 AM, Toby Thain via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
Single package, multiple die. Same goes for F11.
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
J11?
> On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
Yes.
But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11. paul
12:43 p.m.
On 2022-10-18 3:36 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Ah, I didn't know there were so many multi-dies in the range! I wonder
if anyone is interested in taking some high quality X-rays. If it
logistically makes sense I could lend boards for this...
--Toby
Single
package, multiple die. Same goes for F11.
And the MV1. And the MVII. And the 8200, CVAX, Rigel/etc....
I think the NVAX was on a single chip....
8:41 a.m.
Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
On 2022-10-18 2:57 a.m., Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
Yes, K1836 series as far as I remember, but the K1801VM3 is a much more
developed CPU as the J11 is and is a single Chip CPU was the J11 is not.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Yes. But they "cloned" not only DEC Pros, they build PDP11 Computers in
several variants. ...
The USSR built several PDP11 Processors, K1801VM1, K1801VM2, K1801VM3, N1806VM2
etc.. which are all Single Chip PDP11's. DEC's only Single Chip CPU was
the T11.
J11?
--Toby On Oct 17, 2022, at 2:47 PM, Joshua Rice via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
That's definitely accurate. I have seen pictures of Russian Pro clones.
12:45 a.m.
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP
machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit
series, that there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet
Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and PDP-10
machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that
russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own
systems of computers, that's simply wrong.
The demand for "clones" are only existed since it was pretty much
ineffective to develop all the interesting software for all the own
stuff again, you know there are many man years necessary..in the east
and in the west. Software clould easily copied, harware couldn't, it
has to be build. Therefore it isn't effective to clone parts that aren't
available locally, where other parts that could do the job are.
Therefore most of the machines aren't clones.
(don't come and say that copying software is illegal, there was not
only one illegal thing that NSA/CIA/GCHQ has done to that time, so why
don't do the same? It where totally different economical systems)
The PDP11 architecture looked interesting, so they build compatible
computers, not clones, on that this software could run.
The soviet SM-1420 (~ PDP11/34) (Wikipedia stated that they where build
in the former GDR also, wich is simply wrong) used AM2901 compatible
Chips to build the CPU (not the FPU!), which wasn't done from DEC in
any of ther PDP11's as far as I know.
Things got "cloned" by reading the manuals and developing an own
hardware that fits and used available parts.
There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more
intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
4:52 a.m.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: "Holm Tiffe" <holm(a)freibergnet.de>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the
(perhaps erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by
the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite
poor documentation, there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also,
depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the
18-bit or 36-bit PDP machines being cloned? I imagine that given the
rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit series, that there would have
been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet Union, but i
find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and
PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that
russians or the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own
systems of computers, that's simply wrong.
Hi,
I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean
a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC
clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.
I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their
own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more
valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic
architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were
literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.
Cheers, Josh
7:42 a.m.
This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet computing and the causes of their
lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the accuracy since I am no expert in this
subject. But a very interesting and informative video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Rice via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Joshua Rice <rice43(a)btinternet.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
------ Original Message ------
From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: "Holm Tiffe" <holm(a)freibergnet.de>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps erronous)
claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP
machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit
series, that there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet
Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and
PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians or
the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of
computers, that's simply wrong.
Hi,
I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a
1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is
still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.
I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own machines, but
it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable to copy western
designs than design their own domestic architectures from scratch. There was also plenty
of designs that were literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.
Cheers, Josh
9:09 a.m.
Eugene? Most people that are named Eugene (or Eugen in German) are
descendands of russian people or russians...and named Jewegeny. :-)
Excellent is ...wrong, starting at the point that the eniac should be
the first electronic calculator, it wasn't.
There are more faults. The cause for the lag in computing technology in
the east is simple: the planned economy, not the decision to use one or
another memory technology.
The CMEA decided to build computer components in countries w/o any
experience in HiTec, as an example it was forbidden to produce magnet
tapes in the GDR (cars with 4 cycle engines too and more than 100HP was
forbidden too), tapes and disks should be produced in bulgaria..for
all of the CMEA countries. What do you expect then to come out?
Regards,
Holm
W2HX via cctalk wrote:
This is an excellent video on the history of Soviet
computing and the causes of their lagging behind the west. I cannot comment on the
accuracy since I am no expert in this subject. But a very interesting and informative
video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnHdqPBrtH8
73 Eugene W2HX
Subscribe to my Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/w2hx-channel/videos
-----Original Message-----
From: Joshua Rice via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2022 7:52 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Joshua Rice <rice43(a)btinternet.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
------ Original Message ------
From: "Holm Tiffe via cctalk" <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: "Holm Tiffe" <holm(a)freibergnet.de>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 Oct, 2022 At 08:45
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
After some discussion on reddit about russian PDP-11 clones, i made the (perhaps
erronous) claim that the PDP series in general was cloned by the Soviets.
I’m aware that there was a lot of QBUS/LSI PDP-11 clones, and depite poor documentation,
there is significant evidence of PDP-8 clones. Also, depite not strictly a “PDP”, the VAX
series was also cloned.
However, i’m curious whether anyone has any evidence of either the 18-bit or 36-bit PDP
machines being cloned? I imagine that given the rather lacklustre success of the 18-bit
series, that there would have been less demand for an 18-bit PDP machine in the Soviet
Union, but i find it quite hard to believe that no attempt to clone the PDP-6 and
PDP-10 machines would have been attempted.
Does anyone here have any information on such clones?
Cheers,
Josh Rice
Josh, it seems to be difficult for any "western" guy to belive that russians or
the "warshaw pakt countries" where able to develop ther own systems of
computers, that's simply wrong.
Hi,
I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean a
1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC clone" is
still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.
I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their own machines,
but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more valuable to copy western
designs than design their own domestic architectures from scratch. There was also plenty
of designs that were literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.
Cheers, Josh
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
8:52 a.m.
Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
Hi,
I apologise for any misunderstanding. By "clone", i didn't exactly mean
a 1-to-1 copy, but more a reimplementation. Much like the term "IBM PC
clone" is still used to describe non-IBM-derived PC designs.
Ok, sounds better, but the russians rolled out ther own CPUs too, that
makes a lot of difference in my eyes.
I understand that the eastern european countries can and di design their
own machines, but it's undeniable that the Soviet leaders deemed it more
valuable to copy western designs than design their own domestic
architectures from scratch. There was also plenty of designs that were
literal "clones", down to the silicon gates.
Cheers, Josh
From what I read in the last 20 years I would state that the PDP11's are
far more spread all over the country as they where in the US. Belive it
or not.
Most of us know that the PDP11's archtecture is an elegant design and it
was the blueprint of Z8000 and MC68000 (MSP430). It must have had favored
from russian programmers..as I already wrote above even Tetris was
programmed on a russian PDP11.
...but this hasn't happened since the CPUs got copied, they rolled out
ther own thing.
Even the "cloned" Z80 from the former GDR wasn't a clone at all. Zilog
Z80 have Bugs in the Flag handling for example, which the GDR U880 has
corrected.
One must know what he is doing to do that.
The russians "cloned" CPUs that never existet in original.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583
info(a)tsht.de Fax +49 37292 709779 Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
7:18 a.m.
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe wrote:
There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6 or 10, the 11 was much more
intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".
Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone"
Has some similarity to PDP-8/L but not a physical clone. Assume was software
compatible.
https://rusue.com/cemetery-of-soviet-computers/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/294204864659?hash=item447ff9f893:g:7IEAAOSwmzFhNXl…
7:53 p.m.
On 10/18/22 09:18, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 09:45:30AM +0200, Holm Tiffe
wrote:
Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip
style!
Jon
There wasn't much demand to build an PDP8, 6
or 10, the 11 was much more
intersting. BTW: As far as I heard some of the russian ICBM's using
computers build from the more advanched russian "PDP11-clones".
Saratov-2 seems to be PDP-8 "clone"
8:21 p.m.
Wow, they even copied the DEC car handles of the flip-chip style!
Always interesting. You never want to clone so closely you wind up
cloning unintended "features". Like let's say there was a floating point
bug that could be triggered to cause a system crash if very unusual
things happened. That would be embarrassing.
C
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