20 Jan
2023
20 Jan
'23
10:52 a.m.
I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it allows standard access
to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way to image the disk. With an USB attached
3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does
this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive?
Zane
20 Jan
20 Jan
10:57 a.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not
seen is if it
allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way
to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on
my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with
the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive?
The GW is simply the interface between the host and a floppy drive.
It's up to the software that you're using as to what capability it has.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
11:05 a.m.
Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process. The GW itself connects
to the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of
zeros and ones. This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux)
where the captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which
understands floppy formats. You tell the analyzer what you are looking at.
The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track by
track) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract
directories and files.
On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not
seen is if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way to
image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and I can
easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy
drive?
Zane
11:19 a.m.
On 1/20/2023 1:05 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process. The GW
itself connects
to the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series
of zeros and ones. This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux)
where the captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which
understands floppy formats. You tell the analyzer what you are
looking at.
The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track
by track) or for operating systems that it understands it can extract
directories and files.
On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Not to discount Mike's response, but to Zane's original question:
At
this time, No, the GW only allows imaging.
*BUT*, there is nothing preventing the firmware Keir wrote from being
extended to support accessing the actual floppy disk directly via the
USB interface (by emulating a regular USB floppy drive set of commands).
In reality, most people just do with Mike is suggesting. Grab the image
and then mount it as a virtual floppy and read the files/dirs as needed.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve
not seen is if it
allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a
way to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk
mounts on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does
this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive?
Zane
12:31 p.m.
New subject: [SPAM] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives?
On Jan 20, 2023, at 11:19 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 1/20/2023 1:05 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
My thanks to all that answered. I’ll probably pick up a GreaseWeazel at some point.
Right now I’m trying to judge my need. I’ve only found a fraction of the 5.25” floppies I
should have. For that matter, I’ve only found about 60% of the 3.5” floppies I should
have. I’m mystified as to where three big boxes are, and those include the bulk of my
5.25” floppies.
Realistically that’s good enough Jim, though I find the way the 3.5” floppies are working
to be quite useful. I can take a look at what’s on them, and in many cases, I just pull
the files off. As there is no reason to image them.
Zane
Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process.
The GW itself connects to the actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a
series of zeros and ones. This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) where the
captured flux image is analyzed by a second program which understands floppy formats. You
tell the analyzer what you are looking at.
The analyzer can then provide a binary dump of the actual data (track by track) or for
operating systems that it understands it can extract directories and files.
On 1/20/2023 12:52 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Not to discount Mike's response, but to Zane's original question:
At this time, No, the GW only allows imaging.
*BUT*, there is nothing preventing the firmware Keir wrote from being extended to support
accessing the actual floppy disk directly via the USB interface (by emulating a regular
USB floppy drive set of commands).
In reality, most people just do with Mike is suggesting. Grab the image and then mount
it as a virtual floppy and read the files/dirs as needed.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve
not seen is if it allows standard access to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way
to image the disk. With an USB attached 3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and I can
easily pull files off the disk. Does this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy
drive?
Zane
12:37 p.m.
New subject: [SPAM] Re: USB Attached 5.25" drives?
On 1/20/2023 2:31 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
Realistically that’s good enough Jim, though I find
the way the 3.5” floppies are working to be quite useful. I can take a look at what’s on
them, and in many cases, I just pull the files off. As there is no reason to image them.
No doubt. Don't get me wrong, GW and KryoFlux and Catweazel(sp?) and
others serve a great purpose. But, most media is not so important. I
have some geneology disks a family member worked on in the 1980s that I
need to archive. But, it does not rise to the need to flux image. I'll
just pop them into a DOS PC and grab the data. If there are issues,
we'll cross that bridge then.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
21 Jan
21 Jan
12:29 a.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Mike Katz wrote:
Using the Greaseweazel is a two stage process. The GW
itself connects to the
actual drive and just records the flux transitions as a series of zeros and
ones. This is transferred to a computer (PC, MAC, Linux) where the captured
Even that is not fully correct. It does not record the transistions but
instead the *time between* the transitions ;-)
Christian
20 Jan
20 Jan
1:39 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 at 19:52, Zane Healy via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I’m now aware of the GreaseWeazle, but what I’ve not seen is if it allows standard access
to the data on a floppy, or only provides a way to image the disk. With an USB attached
3.5” floppy the disk mounts on my Mac, and I can easily pull files off the disk. Does
this work with the GreaseWeazle and a 5.25” floppy drive?
Just FWIW, this was a FAQ and so someone has made a gizmo.
It's not cheap but it works, apparently.
https://shop.deviceside.com/prod/FC5025
It's read-only but it handles, in theory, DS/DD 40 track, DS/DD 80
track, and DS/HD 80 track.
It attaches to a PC floppy drive, so if a PC floppy controller can't
read the format without hardware assistance, this won't either.
An alternative method is described here:
https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-u…
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
2:31 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
An alternative method is described here:
https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-u…
That is using an NEC UF0001 drive.
Good luck finding one!
But, the UF0002 is readily available. Anybody have any idea whether it
would work?
probably not.
Presumably, NEC's FIRST external USB drive used a general purpose USB
floppy controller, but probably by the second one, they made it very
specific to 1.4M
If it supports "mode 3", then it could probably be made to work for NEC's
8" format, and the NEC 1.2M 5.25" format.
3 p.m.
Presumably, NEC's FIRST external USB drive used a
general purpose USB floppy
controller, but probably by the second one, they made it very specific to
1.4M
Sorry.
Thinking about it,
It is probably NOT making the controller more specific to some formats;
(although updated drivers probably do not support anything but 1.4M)
Instead, it is probably that they made an integrated drive and controller,
which unfortunately means that we can't just separate the two parts and
substitute a 5.25" drive.
3:18 p.m.
There's also a German fellow who has done a read-only MFM USB controller
using, of all things, an AVR with just enough memory to hold a single
sector. Apparently interfaces with the Windows USB floppy driver (I
think). Probably slower than tar in Siberia, however. And it doesn't
write.
He does his decoding on the fly.
--Chuck
3:04 p.m.
On 1/20/23 14:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium...
--Chuck
An alternative method is described here:
https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-u…
3:14 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb
controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
also, I found it here;
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface,
external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium...
9:27 p.m.
After doing a little web browsing, it seems that Gotek has adapted the
Artery AT32F435 MCU on their newer units.
This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally.
288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM. Looks to be a souped-up crossbreed of
the STM32F4 and F7 MCUs.
I'll have to check pinouts to see how the Artery MCUs match the STM
varieties, but I suspect they'll be pretty close, as Artery also makes
clones of standard STM32 chips (e.g. AT32F407 vs. STM32F407). I'll be
surprised if I couldn't use my STLINK programmer on one.
This isn't unusual for the Chinese; there are several clone makers of
the STM32 series. I've run into a few that are phony-branded with the
ST logo.
But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than
simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen
sink type of MCU.
--Chuck
10:11 p.m.
FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an AT32F415.
m
On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:28 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
After doing a little web browsing, it seems that Gotek
has adapted the
Artery AT32F435 MCU on their newer units.
This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally.
288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM. Looks to be a souped-up crossbreed of
the STM32F4 and F7 MCUs.
I'll have to check pinouts to see how the Artery MCUs match the STM
varieties, but I suspect they'll be pretty close, as Artery also makes
clones of standard STM32 chips (e.g. AT32F407 vs. STM32F407). I'll be
surprised if I couldn't use my STLINK programmer on one.
This isn't unusual for the Chinese; there are several clone makers of
the STM32 series. I've run into a few that are phony-branded with the
ST logo.
But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than
simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything including the kitchen
sink type of MCU.
--Chuck
21 Jan
21 Jan
7:26 a.m.
On 1/21/23 01:11, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it uses an
AT32F415.
The first one I bought many years ago has an STM32F105.
At the time there was no third party firmware and it turned
out to be pretty useless on anything other than a PC.
With the current hXc2001 firmware it looks to be usable for
any of the disks I may want to replace.
I just got two new ones and they have AT32F415 chips.
My understanding is that the two are functionally identical.
We shall see as my fun progresses.
An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that lets you
hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
bill
7:33 a.m.
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that
lets you
hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
I use the DBIT adapter with my AppleSauce and it works pretty well. You
can also get one of these:
https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/8-floppy-disk-interface-50-p…
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
8:08 a.m.
On 2023-01-21 10:33, geneb via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
The tindie ones don't seem to have the tg43 signal? They look just like
some passive connectors ...
An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT
that lets you
hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
I use the DBIT adapter with my AppleSauce and it works pretty well. You
can also get one of these:
https://www.tindie.com/products/siliconinsider/8-floppy-disk-interface-50-p…
9:42 a.m.
On 1/21/23 07:26, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that
lets you
hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
The Micro Solutions adapter that I have from ca. 1989 is a purely
passive PCB--the TG43 signal is generated on the Compaticaard. A Gotek
would be blissfully ignorant of this signal, as will many 8" drives.
After all, an 8" drive with any intelligence knows that it's stepped 43
tracks from home. It's just the very early 8" drives that use this signal.
--Chuck
10:22 a.m.
If you're just *reading* 8" images it should just be a simple matter of
remapping the pins.
Here's a good reference; just reverse your perspective:
http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/img42841/cnct.htm
FWIW, several dual-mode FDCs, notably Cromemco, effectively duplicate
almost all of the relevant 50-pin signals on their 34-pin interface, so no
mods or adapters required. In fact, many people use 3.5" and 5.25" HD
drives (and presumably Goteks) on the 34-pin cable and they appear as 8"
drives to the system.
m
On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 10:26 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 1/21/23 01:11, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it
uses an AT32F415.
The first one I bought many years ago has an STM32F105.
At the time there was no third party firmware and it turned
out to be pretty useless on anything other than a PC.
With the current hXc2001 firmware it looks to be usable for
any of the disks I may want to replace.
I just got two new ones and they have AT32F415 chips.
My understanding is that the two are functionally identical.
We shall see as my fun progresses.
An interesting note. I have a device from DBIT that lets you
hook up an 8" disk to the interface for 5.25 or 3.5 floppies.
I wonder how I would go about reversing that process so I could
hook one of these GOTEKs up in place of a physical 8" disk.
bill
9:38 p.m.
On 1/21/23 11:35, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 1/20/23 22:11, Mike Stein wrote:
The 2022 Goteks use a 256KB artery; I don't know the part number offhand.
The 32KB Goteks work fine (in the formats I know - PC & Amiga mostly)
with good fast USB storage and FlashFloppy firmware.
HxC did *not* work for a while but I think that's been fixed.
(and no, the AT32F415 variants weren't one bit cheaper.)
Doc
FWIW, I just received a Gotek last week and it
uses an AT32F415.
Aw shucks, that's not inspiring at all. F4 core, but only 32KB of SRAM.
Probably is cheaper than the usual STM32F107. 
22 Jan
22 Jan
9:30 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023, 9:28 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
This is a huge improvement over the STM32F107 used on these originally.
288MHz, lots of flash 384KB SRAM.
But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being able to do more than
simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything
including the kitchen
sink type of MCU.
I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't a
general purpose dev board. It's pretty special purpose 34 pin header.
Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources
on the uC?
Tony
10:36 a.m.
On 1/22/23 09:30, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote:
But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to being
able to do more than
If the MCU is really just an ATF415, then you can forget all of the
blue-sky stuff. It's little more powerful than the original STM32F105/107.
It was difficult for me to understand why a howitzer like the 435 would
be used in a simple floppy emulator. Apparently, contrary to what some
say, it's not the case.
--Chuck
simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything
including the kitchen
sink type of MCU.
I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't a
general purpose dev board. It's pretty special purpose 34 pin header.
Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources
on the uC? 
5:02 p.m.
Related to this thread, I just spotted this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/165728795134
Description: "New PCB To build a "Drawbridge" Adapter -- Allows use of a
regular IBM Style 3.5" disk drive to copy and write Amiga format disks"
I dig the "floppy disk" form-factor of the PCB sandwich.
Sellam
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 10:36 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 1/22/23 09:30, Tony Jones via cctalk wrote:
But that AT32F435 in the new Gotek points to
being able to do more than
a
simply emulate a floppy. Definitely everything
including the kitchen
sink type of MCU.
I'm struggling to see what this functionality would be. The Gotek isn't
general purpose dev board. It's pretty
special purpose 34 pin header.
Maybe there are features Keir would like to add to FF with more resources
on the uC?
If the MCU is really just an ATF415, then you can forget all of the
blue-sky stuff. It's little more powerful than the original
STM32F105/107.
It was difficult for me to understand why a howitzer like the 435 would
be used in a simple floppy emulator. Apparently, contrary to what some
say, it's not the case.
--Chuck
21 Jan
21 Jan
4:45 a.m.
On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ...
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb
controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
also, I found it here;
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy
interface, external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium...
12:18 p.m.
On 1/21/2023 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote:
On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
BAH! I just ordered the DC2 part! :-)
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ...
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb
controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
also, I found it here;
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy
interface, external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're
unobtainium...
12:39 p.m.
>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy
usb controller. Al has the
>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers:
>>>
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
>> also, I found it here;
>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash
>>> programming...
A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . .
looking at the datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps,
300Kbps, 250Kbps data rates.
1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT "4M"
(unformatted))
500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM)
300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the
360RPM)
250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD)
For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate?
1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80
model 1, early Osborne, and many others)?
2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware. Is there also newer
driver/firmware support?
12:52 p.m.
On 2023-01-21 15:39, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Isn't the biggest problem, that it uses the NEC 765 controller, which
can't read a lot of the WD formatted floppies?
>>>
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the
>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers:
>>>
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
>> also, I found it here;
>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash
>>> programming...
A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . . looking at the
datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps, 300Kbps, 250Kbps
data rates.
1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT "4M"
(unformatted))
500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM)
300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the
360RPM)
250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD)
For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate?
1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80
model 1, early Osborne, and many others)?
2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware. Is there also newer
driver/firmware support?
1:37 p.m.
>>>>> There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2
floppy usb controller. Al has the
>>>>> datasheet archived on bitsavers:
>>>>>
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
>>>> also, I found it here;
>>>> https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
>>>>> What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external
flash
>>>>> programming...
> A possible minor issue, and/or stupid question, . . . looking at the
> datasheet, it says that it supports 1Mbps, 500 Kbps, 300Kbps, 250Kbps data
> rates.
> 1Mbps is the never-made-it-to-mainstream "2.8M" drive (and NeXT
"4M"
> (unformatted))
> 500 Kbps is "HD" ("1.4M", "1.2M", and 8"DD/MFM)
> 300 Kbps is a "360K" disk in a "1.2M" drive (compensating for the
360RPM)
> 250 Kbps is 5.25" DD/MFM (and also 8" FM/SD)
> For 5.25" FM/SD, don't you also need a 125 Kbps data rate?
> 1) SO, does this mean that it can't handle 5.25" single density (TRS80
> model 1, early Osborne, and many others)?
> 2) It mentions Win98/2000 driver and firmware. Is there also newer
> driver/firmware support?
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, emanuel stiebler wrote:
Isn't the biggest problem, that it uses the NEC
765 controller, which can't
read a lot of the WD formatted floppies?
The biggest problem that I had with the NEC765 (PC) was the "flash
blindness" - there was a delay after the index pulse before it could read.
Some systems with Western Digital (179x), for a crowded format, such as
Cromemco, would start the first sector too soon after the index pulse.
Often, you could get around that by masking off the index pulse for
reading, either in cable or on FDC board, or even physically taping over
the index hole of the floppy jacket (not for drives that relied on index
pulse to know whether drive was ready)
Unfotunately, in an unsuccessful read, not having index pulse would
confuse the error reporting.
Also, the WD had a real "track read", whereas the NEC's "track
read" was a
multi-sector read. A real track read is handy for disk analysis (I kept a
TRS80M3, with modified copy of Trakcess, handy), and for formats such as
Amiga which were MFM, but without WD/IBM sector headers.
So, I would agree that WD179x would be preferable, using NEC765 simplifies
drivers for using it as the disk controller on PC.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
22 Jan
22 Jan
5:04 a.m.
On 2023-01-21 15:18, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
On 1/21/2023 6:45 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk
wrote:
You found a better manual, than die two above?
You have an 8051 inside, and a 765 FDC, but on what adresses, etc.?
How would you write any software for that?
On 2023-01-20 18:14, Fred Cisin via cctalk
wrote:
BAH! I just ordered the DC2 part! :-) On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
wrote:
The older(?) USB97CFDC is still available ...
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb
controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
also, I found it here;
https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/374/97cfdc2_01-198397.pdf
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy
interface, external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're
unobtainium...
20 Jan
20 Jan
4:25 p.m.
On 1/20/2023 5:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 1/20/23 14:31, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I'm game to try. I see them nominally listed for sale, so I asked for a
quote for 10. We'll see if they are really available or not.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
> An alternative method is described here:
>
>
https://blog.adafruit.com/2021/12/08/how-to-build-a-working-external-5-25-u…
There is also the SMSC USB97CFDC2 floppy usb controller. Al has the
datasheet archived on bitsavers:
http://www.bitsavers.org/components/standardMicrosystems/_dataSheets/USB97C…
What more could you ask for--legacy floppy interface, external flash
programming...
I'm a bit surprised that nobody's come up with a design using this
creature. Of course, there's the possibility that they're unobtainium...
--Chuck
7:55 p.m.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a
Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the
best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/
I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks.
I've also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person
has used it to image RX02 disks.
It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM,
it'll do it all.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
8:15 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce
yet. Yes, it requires a
Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the best
solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/
I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks.
I've
also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person has used
it to image RX02 disks.
It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM, it'll
do it all.
The link that Sellam sent
https://hackaday.com/2021/01/27/reconstructing-data-from-a-corrupt-apple-fl…
was about using Apple Sauce
21 Jan
21 Jan
6:59 a.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I think I replied before he posted that, or I didn't see it.
For me the AppleSauce provides so much capability that it was worth the
cost of buying a Mac Mini in order to use it. That was before I knew I
could use the 2011 Macbook Pro I already had, but I still feel it was
money well spent.
It's a one-man outfit and the devloper is very responive to user bug
reports and feature requests. A recent feature is the ability to use a
web cam to photograph the media as part of the imaging process.
If anyone has questions, the AppleSauce Discord can be found here:
https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR
Here's a list of the formats that the AS supports /so far/:
https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the
AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a
Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the
best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/
I've used it for both hard & soft-sectored 5.25" disks and 3.5" disks.
I've
also imaged a few 8" disks using it, and I know more than one person has
used it to image RX02 disks.
It'll image just about anything, including PC98 disks. GCR, FM, MFM, it'll
do it all.
The link that Sellam sent
https://hackaday.com/2021/01/27/reconstructing-data-from-a-corrupt-apple-fl…
was about using Apple Sauce
8:25 a.m.
On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 6:59 AM geneb via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
If anyone has questions, the AppleSauce Discord can be found here:
https://discord.gg/YrQKdwNhdR
Here's a list of the formats that the AS supports /so far/:
https://applesaucefdc.com/what-is-applesauce/
And if anyone wants to learn more, John Morris (the inventor) has given a
series of talks about the Applesauce at Kansasfest (yearly Apple ] [ nerd
gathering):
2017
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RMrOiYCEuxc
2018
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QbD6Q9FwHV0
2020
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ORbKpmlp4lg
Sellam
4:48 p.m.
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 07:55:50PM -0800, geneb via cctalk wrote:
[...]
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the AppleSauce
yet. Yes, it requires a
Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the
best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/
It's certainly priced as if they think it's the "best solution". But
it's
also closed-source, driven by a weird GUI tool, and unavailable for at least
six months. Charging a whopping $70 for shipping and tossing it into the
regular international mail is just icing. So it's not even close to my idea
of "best" on any of those fronts, but hey, whatever works for you.
My objection to such a thing being closed-source isn't just ideological. If
I am trying to read a disk which has an unrecognised format or is so mangled
that the software throws up its arms, I'm completely out of luck adding
support to it myself.
Their response to Linux and Windows users is basically "run our software on
a pirate copy of MacOS in a VM". Yes, users of disk imaging tools are
unlikely to care much about violating copyright, but it's probably best to
not say the quiet part out loud here.
22 Jan
22 Jan
9:12 a.m.
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 07:55:50PM -0800, geneb via
cctalk wrote:
[...]
I would love to see your equivalent hardware, hand soldered by you, and
included a software package that's light years ahead of anything currently
available in open or closed source. Follow that up by shipping it at a
loss because who cares how much it costs to ship something from Hawaii to
the UK, as long as some rando on the internet is satisfied.
Go ahead. I'll sit here, eaglerly awaiting your results.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the
AppleSauce yet. Yes, it requires a
Mac. Yes, they're currently out of stock, but Yes, it's absolutely the
best solution out there for disk imaging. https://applesaucefdc.com/
It's certainly priced as if they think it's the "best solution". But
it's
also closed-source, driven by a weird GUI tool, and unavailable for at least
six months. Charging a whopping $70 for shipping and tossing it into the
regular international mail is just icing. So it's not even close to my idea
of "best" on any of those fronts, but hey, whatever works for you.
My objection to such a thing being closed-source
isn't just ideological. If
I am trying to read a disk which has an unrecognised format or is so mangled
that the software throws up its arms, I'm completely out of luck adding
support to it myself.
It's purely ideological. Otherwise, you would have asked the developer
what it takes to add new formats to the software. You could have also
gone to the Documentation page and discovered that the ability to create
new formats for both hard & soft sectored media is built in. Here's the
link to the Hard Sectored format documentation to get you started:
https://wiki.applesaucefdc.com/doku.php?id=adv:hardsectorconf
If you have no idea what format the disk is in, you can create an A2R flux
image of it and send it to John(author) - he loves puzzles like that.
Their response to Linux and Windows users is basically
"run our software on
a pirate copy of MacOS in a VM". Yes, users of disk imaging tools are
unlikely to care much about violating copyright, but it's probably best to
not say the quiet part out loud here.
Oh ffs. No, "their" response is typically, "you can buy a used Mac Mini
off of eBay for under $200 and use that" and if you can't afford that,
THEN you can set up a VM. You can get a suitable Mac Mini via this link
for $150, free shipping and a 3 year warranty:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/144642477287 If you don't have an HDMI monitor or
USB keyboard, I suspect eBay can help there too.
Hopefully the statement at the end of the About page on the AppleSauce
site will get you to stop the "but closed source!" pearl clutching.
"Applesauce is not an open source project, and there are some wild stories
about why that is. But there are 3 independent people that have full
access to the repository containing every scrap of source code and
hardware projects about Applesauce. These people have been instructed to
release everything into the public domain in the case of anything
happening to me, or me getting bored and walking away from the project. It
is important to me that people understand that even though it isn’t
currently open source, there will never be a situation in which they will
get stuck with hardware that is no longer supported or supportable. All of
the file formats and such have already been fully documented and released
into the public domain. I have also released documentation for the entire
communication protocol between the client and hardware so that people can
write their own software.
No silly licensing rules! No special institutional rules, expenses, or
overreaching requirements. You are buying a tool from us. What you do with
it is your business.
The client software is the most powerful disk analysis software available
and is frequently updated adding new features. And it will always be
free."
If you're super butthurt over the price of the hardware, there's nothing
stopping you from writing firmware for the GreaseWeazel using the
documented communication protocol that the AS hardware uses. Of course
you'd still have to touch one of those icky* Macs, but I can't solve all
your problems for you.
g.
* [I *hate* Macs. Like with a screaming purple passion. The last good
computer Apple built was the IIgs. It's been shit downhill ever since.
That being said, the capability presented by the AppleSauce hardware &
software is a compelling reason to own one.]
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
9:19 a.m.
Do us a favor, if your going to reply in a rather snarky disrespectful tone
at least put your actual name on the message envelope.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023, 9:12 AM geneb via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2023, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
I would love to see your equivalent hardware, hand soldered by you,
...
Go ahead. I'll sit here, eaglerly awaiting your results.
...
...
Oh ffs. No, "their" response is typically, "you can buy a used Mac Mini
off of eBay for under $200 and use that" and if you can't afford that,
.com <http://scarlet.deltasoft.com>
8:44 p.m.
I came into this convo late isthmus for 5.25 usb? I found only 3.1/2 disk...help,? I need
5.25 USB disk drive thanks ed sharpe
Sent from the all new AOL app for Android
On Fri, Jan 20, 2023 at 9:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:On 1/20/23 16:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
I'm game to try. I see them nominally listed for
sale, so I asked for a> quote for 10. We'll see if they are really available or
not.
I've also seen them being offered on AliExpress...
--CHuck
10:09 p.m.
On 1/20/2023 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 1/20/23 16:25, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
I ordered 10 from there (utsource has been misleading on their parts
qtys lately). We'll see if they show up and work.
I probably will need help with a design, if anyone's interested in
assisting.
I'm game to try. I see them nominally listed
for sale, so I asked for a
quote for 10. We'll see if they are really available or not.
I've also
seen them being offered on AliExpress...
--CHuck
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
2:54 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Jan 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
It's not cheap but it works, apparently.
https://shop.deviceside.com/prod/FC5025
It's read-only but it handles, in theory, DS/DD 40 track, DS/DD 80
track, and DS/HD 80 track.
It attaches to a PC floppy drive, so if a PC floppy controller can't
read the format without hardware assistance, this won't either.
So, there is a short (14 formats), but impressive, list of formats that
it can image,
Their file access is referred to as "Browse"
and a VERY short (6 formats), but also impressive, list of formats that it
can "browse" (copy files).
The format list is as of March 2013 :-(
IFF they were still actively supporting it, (not likely if they haven't
added any formats in a decade) it would be trivial for them
to add hundreds of other CP/M formats, Apple CP/M, Apple Pascal/P-system,
etc.
460
days inactive
463
days old
42 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Bill Gunshannon -
Christian Corti -
Chuck Guzis -
Doc Shipley -
ED SHARPE -
emanuel stiebler -
Fred Cisin -
geneb -
Jim Brain -
Liam Proven -
Mike Katz -
Mike Stein -
Peter Corlett -
Sellam Abraham -
Tony Jones -
Zane Healy