12 Nov
2022
12 Nov
'22
10:13 p.m.
I've been looking for a video or image that shows what font the original
Datapoint 2200 used.
It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with the office
lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font isn't very clear in that.
In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it on --
which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the power supply
of that system is prone to failure. Also, the system is hard-coded to load
from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive, and tape media, still needs
to be in good working order (which would be pretty rare after this time).
In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the original tape
software was developed "on an HP system" (without any elaboration that I
could tell on which HP system that was).
Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could "program itself"
(i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one strict
boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or no tape
available, I'm curious if any message showed on the CRT.
So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint 2200's
that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on and
legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we know
for sure used the same font?
Thanks!
-Steve
13 Nov
13 Nov
1:44 a.m.
On 13.11.22 07:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
I've been looking for a video or image that shows
what font the original
Datapoint 2200 used.
It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with the office
lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font isn't very clear in that.
In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it on --
which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the power supply
of that system is prone to failure. Also, the system is hard-coded to load
from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive, and tape media, still needs
to be in good working order (which would be pretty rare after this time).
In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the original tape
software was developed "on an HP system" (without any elaboration that I
could tell on which HP system that was).
Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could "program itself"
(i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one strict
boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or no tape
available, I'm curious if any message showed on the CRT.
So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint 2200's
that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on and
legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we know
for sure used the same font?
Thanks!
-Steve
Not only is the powersupply prone to failure, it is also the most dangerous I have ever
seen, and I am hesitant on working it. Primary and secondary sides not separated,
isolation between the two almost nonexistant, many primary nodes exposed. Would never pass
modern safety checks.
But here is a picture of my DP1100, a DP2200 derivative, while it was running a memory
selftest, for a short time in 2021, before the powersupply blew again :
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/its-alive-my-datapoint-2200-1100.…
While the DP2200 is hardcoded to start from tape, the DP1100, otherwise identical, boots
from a ROM. This ROM also contains a minimal machinecode monitor. I recovered &
disasembled the ROM and Gordon Peterson, from Datapoint, commented it out :
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/DisketteBootDisassemblyGEP2.txt
Note that there are multiple videoboard options : the later DP2200, my DP1100, and the
DP5500 share the same videoboard. This relies on a programmable characterset. In the
disassembly mentioned above above, starting at line 3660 you will see a load of
gobldecook, these are actually fondsets to be loaded into the machine.
The fontset has a very particular "look" to it. How much is due to
fontdefinition, and how much is due to the diddlescan, that I dont know. Diddlescan is
where they scan each character in full, before proceding to the next.
Note that a ROM based bootboard for a DP2200 would be a trivial undertaking, and only
involve changing the cassette reader board for the ROM board.
Jos
6:13 a.m.
I assume the Datapoint 3300 terminal's electronics beam characters to the
crt differently. If they're the same, or close enough from the font
perspective, I have a 3300 that works that could be used. Same goes for
power supply, I have a spare of one of the 3300"s power supplies should it
be used to modified to be used in a 2200. I.assume it's a long shot.. I
did not look it up to see for sure.
Anyone have a 3300 that needs a power supply? The 3300 has multiple power
supplies, I have a working spare of the supply that attaches to the back
behind the.crt.
Bill
On Sun, Nov 13, 2022, 4:45 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 13.11.22 07:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
I've been looking for a video or image that
shows what font the original
Datapoint 2200 used.
It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with the
office
lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font
isn't very clear in that.
In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it on --
which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the power
supply
of that system is prone to failure. Also, the
system is hard-coded to
load
from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive,
and tape media, still
needs
to be in good working order (which would be
pretty rare after this time).
In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the original tape
software was developed "on an HP system" (without any elaboration that I
could tell on which HP system that was).
Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could "program itself"
(i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one strict
boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or no
tape
available, I'm curious if any message showed
on the CRT.
So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint 2200's
that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on and
legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we know
for sure used the same font?
Thanks!
-Steve
Not only is the powersupply prone to failure, it is also the most
dangerous I have ever seen, and I am hesitant on working it. Primary and
secondary sides not separated, isolation between the two almost
nonexistant, many primary nodes exposed. Would never pass modern safety
checks.
But here is a picture of my DP1100, a DP2200 derivative, while it was
running a memory selftest, for a short time in 2021, before the powersupply
blew again :
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/its-alive-my-datapoint-2200-1100.…
While the DP2200 is hardcoded to start from tape, the DP1100, otherwise
identical, boots from a ROM. This ROM also contains a minimal machinecode
monitor. I recovered & disasembled the ROM and Gordon Peterson, from
Datapoint, commented it out :
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/DisketteBootDisassemblyGEP2.txt
Note that there are multiple videoboard options : the later DP2200, my
DP1100, and the DP5500 share the same videoboard. This relies on a
programmable characterset. In the disassembly mentioned above above,
starting at line 3660 you will see a load of gobldecook, these are actually
fondsets to be loaded into the machine.
The fontset has a very particular "look" to it. How much is due to
fontdefinition, and how much is due to the diddlescan, that I dont know.
Diddlescan is where they scan each character in full, before proceding to
the next.
Note that a ROM based bootboard for a DP2200 would be a trivial
undertaking, and only involve changing the cassette reader board for the
ROM board.
Jos
12:14 p.m.
Thanks Jos, I hadn't realized how similar the DP1100 is.
This brochure has a great image of the font right on the front page (80x12
text):
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974.pdf
And it's probably a safe bet that it's the same font as in the 1972
models. Would be neat to see the entire character set. In the photo, the
screen looks fairly inset -- like maybe an inch? That's good for keeping
glare off the screen.
I see there was a Cassette 1100 and Disk 1100 (by '75):
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/60259_1100_Brochure_1975.pdf
Then I came across a DP2200 emulator, except -- it was apparently made in
1973 and ran on a DP2200! (ACM link, but click the PDF, it's freely
available)
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/800192.805722
What a neat system. In an old IBM 5110, I replaced its power supply with
modern components. From the DP2200 manual, it looks like it needs -5
-12 +5 +12 and +24V? There is a "trick" in the modern buck-boost voltage
converters to get negative voltage (the IBM PSU needs -5 -12 +5 +12
and +8.5V). I put notes about it here:
https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5100-power-supply/
Maybe something similar can be done for the old DP's? I understand for
authentic/historical perspective all original components is prefered, but
using a substitute PSU is reasonable for checking out the rest of the
system.
Were there any contemporary complaints about the DP PSU in the mid-1970s?
Like was it noisy, ran hot, cause any fires? I recall a talk from one of
the early 1980s Commodore engineer, where he was amazed ANY C64 was still
running since the components were truly not designed to last more than a
few years.
What an amazing system those Datapoints were, for their time. The
chicken-farm story in the DP2200 book is really fun - these farmers being
savvy enough to code up what they needed, and the systems compact enough to
fit in the farms and using modems even to sync up data (pre-1975).
The IBM 5100: 64x16 screen (instead of 80x12 used in DP), and a slightly
larger "box"(case) that had a "horn" inside for better airflow over
all the
components (not an audible horn, but a thing that channel air from the PSU
fan to distribute over all the electronic cards and display circuits).
Plus the 5100 supported the external BNC video (I'm not sure if any of the
DP systems had an external video connector? I didn't see it mentioned in
the DP2200 manual) - I've put 3x extra CRT's chained up to the IBM 5100, in
the manual I think it says it can go up to 16 (not sure what the limiting
factor of that signal is). I'm not sure if quality-wise the IBM PSU was
"better" (it takes about 3/4th of the back half of the case, the other
1/4th for the fan) - other than to say quite a few 5100's are still running
in the world. Maybe all that altogether makes it (the 5100) a more
"portable" system (construction sites, forward edge battlespace, etc --
i.e. being more robust to handle outside heat). Also it had a minimum of
8K. The APL stuff made the 5100 expensive, but the base BASIC model was
~$9K (I think even with the single QIC tape for 207KB storage; but that
price didn't include async/comm cards). Weren't base DPs $5K-$7K (all
throughout 72-75) ?
But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica
of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
(and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
Sorry for the tangent:) I really was just curious about the DP2200 font,
and possibly seeing where it came from (just based on its style). The DP
has a better "0" (zero) font than the 5100 :) (IMO)
-Steve
On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:45 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 13.11.22 07:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
I've been looking for a video or image that
shows what font the original
Datapoint 2200 used.
It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with the
office
lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font
isn't very clear in that.
In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it on --
which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the power
supply
of that system is prone to failure. Also, the
system is hard-coded to
load
from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive,
and tape media, still
needs
to be in good working order (which would be
pretty rare after this time).
In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the original tape
software was developed "on an HP system" (without any elaboration that I
could tell on which HP system that was).
Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could "program itself"
(i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one strict
boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or no
tape
available, I'm curious if any message showed
on the CRT.
So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint 2200's
that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on and
legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we know
for sure used the same font?
Thanks!
-Steve
Not only is the powersupply prone to failure, it is also the most
dangerous I have ever seen, and I am hesitant on working it. Primary and
secondary sides not separated, isolation between the two almost
nonexistant, many primary nodes exposed. Would never pass modern safety
checks.
But here is a picture of my DP1100, a DP2200 derivative, while it was
running a memory selftest, for a short time in 2021, before the powersupply
blew again :
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/its-alive-my-datapoint-2200-1100.…
While the DP2200 is hardcoded to start from tape, the DP1100, otherwise
identical, boots from a ROM. This ROM also contains a minimal machinecode
monitor. I recovered & disasembled the ROM and Gordon Peterson, from
Datapoint, commented it out :
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/DisketteBootDisassemblyGEP2.txt
Note that there are multiple videoboard options : the later DP2200, my
DP1100, and the DP5500 share the same videoboard. This relies on a
programmable characterset. In the disassembly mentioned above above,
starting at line 3660 you will see a load of gobldecook, these are actually
fondsets to be loaded into the machine.
The fontset has a very particular "look" to it. How much is due to
fontdefinition, and how much is due to the diddlescan, that I dont know.
Diddlescan is where they scan each character in full, before proceding to
the next.
Note that a ROM based bootboard for a DP2200 would be a trivial
undertaking, and only involve changing the cassette reader board for the
ROM board.
Jos
1 p.m.
Steve said:
I recall a talk from one of the early 1980s Commodore
engineer, where he
was amazed ANY C64 was still
running since the components were truly not designed
to last more than a
few years.
Me too, to be honest. But then, they seem to just randomly die at any
moment, so maybe the C64 components are only good for so many hours of use,
like a light bulb. The fact that so many of them were made (upwards of 25
million) is probably why some can still be found working. Those are still
somewhere on the vertical of the bathtub curve on the backend, where their
useful life is fast coming to an end. We will all probably witness the
last working Commodore 64's in our lifetimes :D
But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems
like a modern replica
of a DP2200 would be possible.
Can't say the same for the 5100 because apparently
nobody left on the
planet understands those MOSFET
silver cans (and how to extract the 6KB of content
from them).
I am completely ignorant to the operation of the 5100 but can't you just
dump that memory when the system is on? Or is there some Jon Titor type
reason behind it?
Sellam
On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 12:15 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Thanks Jos, I hadn't realized how similar the DP1100 is.
>
> This brochure has a great image of the font right on the front page (80x12
> text):
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974.pdf
>
> And it's probably a safe bet that it's the same font as in the 1972
> models. Would be neat to see the entire character set. In the photo, the
> screen looks fairly inset -- like maybe an inch? That's good for keeping
> glare off the screen.
>
> I see there was a Cassette 1100 and Disk 1100 (by '75):
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/60259_1100_Brochure_1975.pdf
>
> Then I came across a DP2200 emulator, except -- it was apparently made in
> 1973 and ran on a DP2200! (ACM link, but click the PDF, it's freely
> available)
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/800192.805722
>
>
> What a neat system. In an old IBM 5110, I replaced its power supply with
> modern components. From the DP2200 manual, it looks like it needs -5
> -12 +5 +12 and +24V? There is a "trick" in the modern buck-boost voltage
> converters to get negative voltage (the IBM PSU needs -5 -12 +5 +12
> and +8.5V). I put notes about it here:
> https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5100-power-supply/
>
> Maybe something similar can be done for the old DP's? I understand for
> authentic/historical perspective all original components is prefered, but
> using a substitute PSU is reasonable for checking out the rest of the
> system.
>
> Were there any contemporary complaints about the DP PSU in the mid-1970s?
> Like was it noisy, ran hot, cause any fires? I recall a talk from one of
> the early 1980s Commodore engineer, where he was amazed ANY C64 was still
running since the components were truly not designed
to last more than a
> few years.
>
>
> What an amazing system those Datapoints were, for their time. The
> chicken-farm story in the DP2200 book is really fun - these farmers being
> savvy enough to code up what they needed, and the systems compact enough to
> fit in the farms and using modems even to sync up data (pre-1975).
>
> The IBM 5100: 64x16 screen (instead of 80x12 used in DP), and a
> slightlyBut, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern
> replica
> of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
> larger "box"(case) that had a "horn" inside for better airflow
over all the
> components (not an audible horn, but a thing that channel air from the PSU
> fan to distribute over all the electronic cards and display circuits).
> Plus the 5100 supported the external BNC video (I'm not sure if any of the
> DP systems had an external video connector? I didn't see it mentioned in
> the DP2200 manual) - I've put 3x extra CRT's chained up to the IBM 5100, in
> the manual I think it says it can go up to 16 (not sure what the limiting
> factor of that signal is). I'm not sure if quality-wise the IBM PSU was
> "better" (it takes about 3/4th of the back half of the case, the other
> 1/4th for the fan) - other than to say quite a few 5100's are still running
> in the world. Maybe all that altogether makes it (the 5100) a more
> "portable" system (construction sites, forward edge battlespace, etc --
> i.e. being more robust to handle outside heat). Also it had a minimum of
> 8K. The APL stuff made the 5100 expensive, but the base BASIC model was
> ~$9K (I think even with the single QIC tape for 207KB storage; but that
> price didn't include async/comm cards). Weren't base DPs $5K-$7K (all
> throughout 72-75) ?
>
>
But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems
like a modern replica
> of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
>
>
> Sorry for the tangent:) I really was just curious about the DP2200 font,
> and possibly seeing where it came from (just based on its style). The DP
> has a better "0" (zero) font than the 5100 :) (IMO)
>
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:45 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > On 13.11.22 07:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> > > I've been looking for a video or image that shows what font the
> original
> > > Datapoint 2200 used.
> > >
> > > It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with the
> > office
> > > lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font isn't very clear in
that.
> > >
> > > In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it on
> --
> > > which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the power
> > supply
> > > of that system is prone to failure. Also, the system is hard-coded to
> > load
> > > from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive, and tape media, still
> > needs
> > > to be in good working order (which would be pretty rare after this
> time).
> > >
> > > In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the original
tape
> > > software was developed "on an HP system" (without any elaboration
that
> I
> > > could tell on which HP system that was).
> > >
> > > Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could "program
> itself"
> > > (i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one
> strict
> > > boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or no
> > tape
> > > available, I'm curious if any message showed on the CRT.
> > >
> > > So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint
> 2200's
> > > that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on and
> > > legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we
> know
> > > for sure used the same font?
> > >
> > > Thanks!
> > > -Steve
> >
> >
> > Not only is the powersupply prone to failure, it is also the mostBut,
> in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica
> of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
> > dangerous I have ever seen, and I am hesitant on working it. Primary and
> > secondary sides not separated, isolation between the two almost
> > nonexistant, many primary nodes exposed. Would never pass modern safety
> > checks.
> >
> > But here is a picture of my DP1100, a DP2200 derivative, while it was
> > running a memory selftest, for a short time in 2021, before the
> powersupply
> > blew again :
> >
> >
> >
>
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/its-alive-my-datapoint-2200-1100.…
> >
> > While the DP2200 is hardcoded to start from tape, the DP1100, otherwise
> > identical, boots from a ROM. This ROM also contains a minimal machinecode
> > monitor. I recovered & disasembled the ROM and Gordon Peterson, from
> > Datapoint, commented it out :
> >
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/DisketteBootDisassemblyGEP2.txt
> >
> > Note that there are multiple videoboard options : the later DP2200, my
> > DP1100, and the DP5500 share the same videoboard. This relies on a
> > programmable characterset. In the disassembly mentioned above above,
> > starting at line 3660 you will see a load of gobldecook, these are
> actually
> > fondsets to be loaded into the machine.
> >
> > The fontset has a very particular "look" to it. How much is due to
> > fontdefinition, and how much is due to the diddlescan, that I dont know.
> > Diddlescan is where they scan each character in full, before proceding to
> > the next.
> >
> > Note that a ROM based bootboard for a DP2200 would be a trivial
> > undertaking, and only involve changing the cassette reader board for the
> > ROM board.
> >
> >
> > Jos
> >
> >
> >
>
1:45 p.m.
True, I'd have to assume actual usage degrades the longevity of some
electronics (and number of hot/cold cycles). But there is still some
natural shelf-life decay (maybe moisture in the air can find its way, even
in what should be sealed components).
I am completely ignorant to the operation of the 5100
but can't you just
dump that memory when the system is on? Or is there some Jon Titor type
reason behind it?
Some of it, yes. Enough that a viable 5110 emulator was made (5100
emulator still in work). But there is some code in the PALM processor
itself (about a dozen "tin cans" on there, related to how it actually
executed instructions), the Base IO card, display card, comm. cards. Like
for the display card, and how its character set is generated (there should
be similar code like was shown for the DP). So there are some limits to
the emulator, such as MARKing a tape/disk and doing both a read/write of
tape/disk images (there is some limited read capability). So, true,
baring some of the I/O features and some precise timing of the processor, a
reasonable replica could be made (a good replica of the font is in Corti's
X11 parts of the emulator - one of the sets at least). But that's an
emulation, not a replica :D
On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:00 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Steve said:
>
> > I recall a talk from one of the early 1980s Commodore engineer, where he
> was amazed ANY C64 was still
> > running since the components were truly not designed to last more than a
> few years.
>
> Me too, to be honest. But then, they seem to just randomly die at any
> moment, so maybe the C64 components are only good for so many hours of use,
> like a light bulb. The fact that so many of them were made (upwards of 25
> million) is probably why some can still be found working. Those are still
> somewhere on the vertical of the bathtub curve on the backend, where their
> useful life is fast coming to an end. We will all probably witness the
> last working Commodore 64's in our lifetimes :D
>
> > But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica
> of a DP2200 would be possible.
> > Can't say the same for the 5100 because apparently nobody left on the
> planet understands those MOSFET
> > silver cans (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
>
I am completely ignorant to the operation of the 5100
but can't you just
dump that memory when the system is on? Or is there some Jon Titor type
reason behind it?
>
> Sellam
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 12:15 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Jos, I hadn't realized how similar the DP1100 is.
> >
> > This brochure has a great image of the font right on the front page
> (80x12
> > text):
> >
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974.pdf
> >
> > And it's probably a safe bet that it's the same font as in the 1972
> > models. Would be neat to see the entire character set. In the photo,
> the
> > screen looks fairly inset -- like maybe an inch? That's good for keeping
> > glare off the screen.
> >
> > I see there was a Cassette 1100 and Disk 1100 (by '75):
> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/60259_1100_Brochure_1975.pdf
> >
> > Then I came across a DP2200 emulator, except -- it was apparently made in
> > 1973 and ran on a DP2200! (ACM link, but click the PDF, it's freely
> > available)
> > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/800192.805722
> >
> >
> > What a neat system. In an old IBM 5110, I replaced its power supply
> with
> > modern components. From the DP2200 manual, it looks like it needs -5
> > -12 +5 +12 and +24V? There is a "trick" in the modern buck-boost
voltage
> > converters to get negative voltage (the IBM PSU needs -5 -12 +5 +12
> > and +8.5V). I put notes about it here:
> > https://voidstar.blog/ibm-5100-power-supply/
> >
> > Maybe something similar can be done for the old DP's? I understand for
> > authentic/historical perspective all original components is prefered, but
> > using a substitute PSU is reasonable for checking out the rest of the
> > system.
> >
> > Were there any contemporary complaints about the DP PSU in the mid-1970s?
> > Like was it noisy, ran hot, cause any fires? I recall a talk from one
> of
> > the early 1980s Commodore engineer, where he was amazed ANY C64 was still
> > running since the components were truly not designed to last more than a
> > few years.
> >
> >
> > What an amazing system those Datapoints were, for their time. The
> > chicken-farm story in the DP2200 book is really fun - these farmers being
> > savvy enough to code up what they needed, and the systems compact enough
> to
> > fit in the farms and using modems even to sync up data (pre-1975).
> >
> > The IBM 5100: 64x16 screen (instead of 80x12 used in DP), and a
> > slightlyBut, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern
> > replica
> > of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> > apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> > (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
> > larger "box"(case) that had a "horn" inside for better
airflow over all
> the
> > components (not an audible horn, but a thing that channel air from the
> PSU
> > fan to distribute over all the electronic cards and display circuits).
> > Plus the 5100 supported the external BNC video (I'm not sure if any of
> the
> > DP systems had an external video connector? I didn't see it mentioned in
> > the DP2200 manual) - I've put 3x extra CRT's chained up to the IBM
5100,
> in
> > the manual I think it says it can go up to 16 (not sure what the limiting
> > factor of that signal is). I'm not sure if quality-wise the IBM PSU was
> > "better" (it takes about 3/4th of the back half of the case, the
other
> > 1/4th for the fan) - other than to say quite a few 5100's are still
> running
> > in the world. Maybe all that altogether makes it (the 5100) a more
> > "portable" system (construction sites, forward edge battlespace, etc
--
> > i.e. being more robust to handle outside heat). Also it had a minimum of
> > 8K. The APL stuff made the 5100 expensive, but the base BASIC model was
> > ~$9K (I think even with the single QIC tape for 207KB storage; but that
> > price didn't include async/comm cards). Weren't base DPs $5K-$7K (all
> > throughout 72-75) ?
> >
> >
> > But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica
> > of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> > apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> > (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
> >
> >
> > Sorry for the tangent:) I really was just curious about the DP2200 font,
> > and possibly seeing where it came from (just based on its style). The DP
> > has a better "0" (zero) font than the 5100 :) (IMO)
> >
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 3:45 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 13.11.22 07:13, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> > > > I've been looking for a video or image that shows what font the
> > original
> > > > Datapoint 2200 used.
> > > >
> > > > It's not shown in the manual. There is one vintage image with
the
> > > office
> > > > lady and the DP2200 on the desk- but the font isn't very clear
in
> that.
> > > >
> > > > In any modern video about the DP2200, none of them seem to power it
> on
> > --
> > > > which is certainly understandable. From what I've read, the
power
> > > supply
> > > > of that system is prone to failure. Also, the system is hard-coded
> to
> > > load
> > > > from Tape 1 -- which means both the tape drive, and tape media,
still
> > > needs
> > > > to be in good working order (which would be pretty rare after this
> > time).
> > > >
> > > > In "the" DP2200 book, it only briefly mentions that the
original tape
> > > > software was developed "on an HP system" (without any
elaboration
> that
> > I
> > > > could tell on which HP system that was).
> > > >
> > > > Nothing in the manual suggests the original DP2200 could
"program
> > itself"
> > > > (i.e. no built in machine code monitor -- those TTL chips had one
> > strict
> > > > boot up sequence: load from tape 1). If there was a read error or
> no
> > > tape
> > > > available, I'm curious if any message showed on the CRT.
> > > >
> > > > So, I was just wondering if there was any known pre-1973 Datapoint
> > 2200's
> > > > that are still working? (and/or if any HD video of them powered on
> and
> > > > legible font can be seen) Or any other more current system that we
> > know
> > > > for sure used the same font?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks!
> > > > -Steve
> > >
> > >
> > > Not only is the powersupply prone to failure, it is also the mostBut,
> > in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica
> > of a DP2200 would be possible. Can't say the same for the 5100 because
> > apparently nobody left on the planet understands those MOSFET silver cans
> > (and how to extract the 6KB of content from them).
> > > dangerous I have ever seen, and I am hesitant on working it. Primary
> and
> > > secondary sides not separated, isolation between the two almost
> > > nonexistant, many primary nodes exposed. Would never pass modern safety
> > > checks.
> > >
> > > But here is a picture of my DP1100, a DP2200 derivative, while it was
> > > running a memory selftest, for a short time in 2021, before the
> > powersupply
> > > blew again :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/its-alive-my-datapoint-2200-1100.…
> > >
> > > While the DP2200 is hardcoded to start from tape, the DP1100, otherwise
> > > identical, boots from a ROM. This ROM also contains a minimal
> machinecode
> > > monitor. I recovered & disasembled the ROM and Gordon Peterson, from
> > > Datapoint, commented it out :
> > >
> >
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/DisketteBootDisassemblyGEP2.txt
> > >
> > > Note that there are multiple videoboard options : the later DP2200, my
> > > DP1100, and the DP5500 share the same videoboard. This relies on a
> > > programmable characterset. In the disassembly mentioned above above,
> > > starting at line 3660 you will see a load of gobldecook, these are
> > actually
> > > fondsets to be loaded into the machine.
> > >
> > > The fontset has a very particular "look" to it. How much is due
to
> > > fontdefinition, and how much is due to the diddlescan, that I dont
> know.
> > > Diddlescan is where they scan each character in full, before proceding
> to
> > > the next.
> > >
> > > Note that a ROM based bootboard for a DP2200 would be a trivial
> > > undertaking, and only involve changing the cassette reader board for
> the
> > > ROM board.
> > >
> > >
> > > Jos
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
3:18 p.m.
On 11/13/22 15:45, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
True, I'd have to assume actual usage degrades the
longevity of some
electronics (and number of hot/cold cycles). But there is still some
natural shelf-life decay (maybe moisture in the air can find its way, even
in what should be sealed components).
Yup, I have a ~ year 2000 pick and place machine. It was
last used in about 2006 and then abandoned in Austin, TX. I
bought it at auction in 2020, so it had been sitting for
about 14 years, likely in unconditioned air space. It fired
right up the first time I tried, and I cloned the hard
drive. Then, 2 days later it would not come out of E-stop.
Lots of boards went bad over time, and are still going out.
Nothing I have replaced has failed, and all repair parts
must be about the same vintage. So, yes, sitting in warm,
humid conditions for a long time apparently is NOT good for
electronics. Funny, the man-machine interface computer is a
consumer-grade PC, I think it is original, and is still
chugging along. VME boards and industrial servo drives have
gone out.
Jon
14 Nov
14 Nov
midnight
On 13.11.22 21:14, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Thanks Jos, I hadn't realized how similar the
DP1100 is.
This brochure has a great image of the font right on the front page (80x12
text):
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974.pdf
Maybe something similar can be done for the old DP's? I understand for
authentic/historical perspective all original components is prefered, but
using a substitute PSU is reasonable for checking out the rest of the
system.
The DP2200 needs secondaries of 450V, 120V,40V, 25V, -25V, 12V, -12V 5V and
-5V. Yep, can be done, but.....
What an amazing system those Datapoints were, for
their time. The
chicken-farm story in the DP2200 book is really fun - these farmers being
savvy enough to code up what they needed, and the systems compact enough to
fit in the farms and using modems even to sync up data (pre-1975).
They were, and are, indeed nice little systems...really need to get mine up again, also
because I have a Diablo disk system for it. Must be extremely rare..
But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems
like a modern replica
of a DP2200 would be possible.
Sure, I even have the complete DP2200 MB in Kicad,
see http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200/jdreesen_shematics/DP2200_mb.pdf
if anyone wants to go ahead I will gladly share my Kicad project ! Mind you, the
diddlescan is a problem as that requires a CRT yoke with 3 windings....
Jos
1:11 a.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, jos wrote:
if anyone wants to go ahead I will gladly share my
Kicad project ! Mind you,
the diddlescan is a problem as that requires a CRT yoke with 3 windings....
Reminds me of the Cogar C4/ICL 1500 system that has a rotated deflection
also with diddlescan ;-) But I think it uses only two windings and
overlays the character deflection with the vertical deflection (it's
desribed in the service manuals).
Christian
534
days inactive
535
days old
8 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
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Bill Degnan -
Christian Corti -
Jon Elson -
jos -
Sellam Abraham -
Steve Lewis