14 Nov
2022
14 Nov
'22
4:25 a.m.
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 decades
here.
I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just random
onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, but over the past 20
years the failures have progressed.
Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals
failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the Wright-Line
rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes.
Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard
plastic" tape seals failed.
Tim N3QE
14 Nov
14 Nov
7:19 a.m.
On 11/14/22 06:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures
over at least the past 2 decades here.
I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just random
onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, but over the past 20
years the failures have progressed.
Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals
failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the Wright-Line
rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes.
Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard
plastic" tape seals failed.
Yup, these seals were under tension. I think the failure
mechanism is the square holes in the seal band develop
cracks at the outer corners, and the tension continues to
expand the crack.
Jon
8:12 a.m.
On 11/14/22 09:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
On 11/14/22 06:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
The soft seals were Polyethelene, I think, the "hard" seals
for use on drives with auto-loaders were Cyclolac, AKA ABS,
and were not in much tension when closed.
Jon
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal
failures over at
least the past 2 decades here.
Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or
70's/80's style) "hard plastic" tape seals failed.
Yup, these seals were under tension. I think the failure
mechanism is the square holes in the seal band develop
cracks at the outer corners, and the tension continues to
expand the crack. 
8:36 a.m.
On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures
over at least the past 2 decades here.
I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just random
onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, but over the past 20
years the failures have progressed.
Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals
failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the Wright-Line
rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes.
Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard
plastic" tape seals failed.
I wrote about this problem here at least 2 or 3 years ago, Although
there must have been millions of these soft seals manufactured (that's
not an exaggeration; the US government, for example, used hundreds of
thousands of them). And yes, the IBM autoloader tape seal(for 3400
series drives) is very durable--I haven't seen many of these fail.
But what I call the "Wright Line" PVC tape seal will age out and
eventually crack and break. Usually this occurs where the "hook" is
attached, due to the attachment being a hole punched in the PVC belt.
On a couple of occasions, I've had the seals split longitudinally. This
is almost epidemic on 1960s and 70s 7 track tapes, due to their age.
Locating replacements has proven to be an exercise in futility,
particularly when one realizes that even relatively new ones are doomed
to fail.
What I've done for customers is return their 10.5" reels in 16mm
plastic tape "cans" in the 800' size. The fit is perfect and I've
received no complaints. Film "cans" for smaller reels are also
available. My source for these is Urbanski Film, although there are
other vendors--and the "cans" are still being manufactured.
--Chuck
10:56 a.m.
Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal?
Sellam
On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 8:36 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
I wrote about this problem here at least 2 or 3 years ago, Although
there must have been millions of these soft seals manufactured (that's
not an exaggeration; the US government, for example, used hundreds of
thousands of them). And yes, the IBM autoloader tape seal(for 3400
series drives) is very durable--I haven't seen many of these fail.
But what I call the "Wright Line" PVC tape seal will age out and
eventually crack and break. Usually this occurs where the "hook" is
attached, due to the attachment being a hole punched in the PVC belt.
On a couple of occasions, I've had the seals split longitudinally. This
is almost epidemic on 1960s and 70s 7 track tapes, due to their age.
Locating replacements has proven to be an exercise in futility,
particularly when one realizes that even relatively new ones are doomed
to fail.
What I've done for customers is return their 10.5" reels in 16mm
plastic tape "cans" in the 800' size. The fit is perfect and I've
received no complaints. Film "cans" for smaller reels are also
available. My source for these is Urbanski Film, although there are
other vendors--and the "cans" are still being manufactured.
--Chuck
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal
failures over at least the past
2 decades here.
I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was
just random onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA
region, but over the past 20 years the failures have progressed.
Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape
seals failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging
in the Wright-Line rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes.
Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style)
"hard plastic" tape seals failed.
11:07 a.m.
On Nov 14, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal?
A wrapper around the rim of a 1/2 inch tape reel, to protect it and allow for storage.
It's more compact than the alternative, a canister to hold the tape, though both were
used.
Tape seals come in two flavors.
One is just a seal -- it protects the tape and has a hook to hang it in a storage rack.
To use the tape, you remove the seal and load the tape reel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapeprotection.jpg -- the white rim around the reel,
with the black hook at the top of the photo.
The other is a seal but also can be opened by the drive mechanism to allow the tape end to
escape through a slot in the seal. These were used for auto-loading tape drives.
You'd mount the reel, seal and all, hit "load" and the drive would make the
tape end come out of the seal slot, thread it through the tape drive path and onto the
take up reel, and get it ready for use.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetic-tape_hg.jpg
The ones that fail are the first type, made of soft plastic that's either deficient in
strenght or in longevity, or perhaps both.
paul
11:14 a.m.
On 11/14/22 10:56, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal?
Sellam
The type under discussion is this:
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/1667864510113-png.1248420/
The "band" that goes around a reel of 1/2" tape and allows it to be hung
in a rack. Wright-Line was big in this type.
https://www.govdeals.com/photos/767/767_18381_19.jpg
IBM used a different seal with their autoloading drives and storage
racks for those worked a bit differently.
--Chuck
11:17 a.m.
Here's a photo of a "combo" Wright Line rack. Note how the upper row of
tapes are hung from a rail.
https://photovault.com/data/resize/800x550/TEC/TECV01P01_19.jpg?a21a7d6f2c8…
--Chuck
11:23 a.m.
1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids
warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80
model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to
re-enable the warranty.
2) Also called a "tape hanger", a piece of plastic that wraps around the
circumference of a reel of tape to keep it from unrolling all over the
floor, and has a hook for hanging the tape in a rack.
Now known to have a limited lifespan.
3) "tape, seal" 3M Temflex type 21557, used to attach a
VHF transmitter to pinnipeds, such as northern elephant seals, for
tracking
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal?
Sellam
> On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote:
>> I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past
> 2 decades here.
1:23 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled
"breaking this seal voids warranty".
If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80 model 1, always
put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to re-enable the warranty.
It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker was illegal to begin with.
;)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
1:47 p.m.
> 1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled
"breaking this seal voids
> warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80
> model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to
> re-enable the warranty.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb wrote:
It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker
was illegal to begin with. ;)
. . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make
exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers?
Nah, it's more FUN to excuse the piggy-backed chips and extra circuitry
added in with, "well, it's like building a boat in a bottle, and if the
seal isn't broken, then the warraanty is still valid, even with
modifications"
Although, for a while, we had a tech at the local Radio Shack "Computer
Center", who would gladly ignore any modifications for which we gave him
circuit diagrams. (lower case, extra keys, memory remapping, RCA
jack for composite video out, reverse video, etc.)
2:31 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Nope. You point out that the state attorney(sp) general would love to
watch Tandy flail against the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. ;)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
> 1) A piece
of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids
> warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80
> model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to
> re-enable the warranty.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb wrote:
It's a lot less effort to tell them the
sticker was illegal to begin with.
;)
. . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make
exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers?
3:09 p.m.
>> It's a lot less effort to tell them the
sticker was illegal to begin with.
>> ;)
> . . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make
> exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Nope. You point out that the state attorney(sp)
general would love to watch
Tandy flail against the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. ;)
I encountered a lot of entities who would not willingly comply with
Manuson-Moss. (I was doing auto repair in the 1970s) Although it was
enacted in 1975, it took a long time for word to get around. And many
companies openly failed to comply, not just coming up with bizarre
scenarios to claim that the modification in some extremely roundabout way
caused the problem.
For example, they could legally get away with claiming that adding a
trailer hitch to your car meant that you were towing, and stressing the
engine more than intended. Even if you CLAIMED that the hitch was for a
bike rack, or a flag for the local sports team. In theory, burden of
proof that a modification caused the problem would be on the dealer; but
in actuality, . . . And, of course, they would extrapolate that to
anything of the running gear of the car. But, when they deny warranty
coverage of the windshield wiper motor, then they were flagrantly
violating the act.
In the EARLY years of the TRS80, Tandy actually believed that they could
void the warranty if you opened the case. Eventually, their lawyers
explained to them about Magnuson-Moss. Sometimes, it is GREAT to have
your adversary lawyer-up, since they will listen to their lawyer, even if
they won't believe you.
YES, you would be legally correct, but trying to get that through to the
droids in the store could be difficult. And, the state attorney general
didn't always consider such to be a high priority.
So, it was easier just to reseal the case.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:25 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
In the EARLY years of the TRS80, Tandy actually
believed that they could void
the warranty if you opened the case. Eventually, their lawyers explained to
them about Magnuson-Moss. Sometimes, it is GREAT to have your adversary
lawyer-up, since they will listen to their lawyer, even if they won't believe
you.
YES, you would be legally correct, but trying to get that through to the
droids in the store could be difficult. And, the state attorney general
didn't always consider such to be a high priority.
So, it was easier just to reseal the case.
Yep. At least nowdays you can publically embarass companies that pull
crap like that - assuming they care of course. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
3:41 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote:
Yep. At least nowdays you can publically embarass
companies that pull crap
like that - assuming they care of course. :)
I don't know the details; didn't Apple push through an "update" that
would
"brick" phones with third party replacement screens?
Did somebody kick their ass?
7:15 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote:
I think that was related to the fingerprint sensor. I didn't pay close
attention as I avoid that ecosystem whenever possible. ;)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Yep. At least nowdays you can publically
embarass companies that pull crap
like that - assuming they care of course. :)
I don't know the details; didn't Apple push through an "update" that
would
"brick" phones with third party replacement screens?
Did somebody kick their ass?
525
days inactive
526
days old
15 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
Chuck Guzis -
Fred Cisin -
geneb -
Jon Elson -
Paul Koning -
Sellam Abraham -
Shoppa, Tim