The below quoted message is a libel. I have demanded an apology and retraction from Eric Moore via e-mail. The ball is in his court. Sellam On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 5:46 PM Eric Moore <mooreericnyc(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, fuck yourself, Gene. Delete away. On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 7:16 PM geneb via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

That depends on the country. What you say is correct in the USA; I have the impression it isn't in the UK. paul

On 26/06/2024 15:01, geneb via cctalk wrote: I've never been in legal proceedings on either side of the courtroom, so take this with a pinch of salt, but the very first reasonable link that Google threw out would seem to suggest that, at least in this case, the weapon is both blunt and crumbly: https://www.carruthers-law.co.uk/our-services/defamation/defamation-defence… I think that where it differs from (some) other systems is that if you are the defendant then it is up to you to prove the truth of the statement rather than up to the plaintiff to prove that it is not true. Then again, if you win, you generally get your legal expenses paid by the other side. So swings and roundabouts. None of this is legal advice and if things were this easy then lawyers would be starving. Ones man's truth ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 7:52 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: ... That is where the "back office" part of what I'm working on comes into play. I'm working to put in place a team/staff that will be able to travel out to where the collection is and handle the disgorgement for the surviving spouse or family. But as I mentioned, this is still a ways away. For now, I can offer the trust documents needed to at least put instructions in place in the event of one's untimely demise. It's a start. Sellam

I have thought about this a lot.. and as I begin to creep into my 50s and experience real aging and the health issues that sometimes come with that, I am giving serious thought to liquidating well before I die.  Even at very conservative average ebay values I've got a lot of money tied up in this mess.  I don't even want to think what I've spent to have FedEx make their best attempts at parcel destruction over the years.I don't want to leave it to my family to dispose of all this stuff at a future time when possibly my generation is shuffling off this world and prices start to crater, as I suspect they will for most of it eventually. I can see some GenZ and on down taking an interest in vintage machines but not nearly enough to hold up a price floor.It's either that or instruct they be entombed in my mausoleum with me, for the enjoyment of future grave robbers/treasure hunters.BSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Date: 2024-06-26 8:32 a.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: Bill Degnan &lt;billdegnan(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Revocable Living Trust for Computer Collectors On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:29 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 7:52 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk <> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:>> >> > It's not as simple as just making a living will or a trust for your> > collection.   HIstorical computers are not stock portfolios.  The storage> > and management costs outweigh the value over time.  I have been on a lot> of> > computer rescues and I have seen what happens to lifetime collections.> > Families don't want the effort of dealing with heavy old computers and> > collections often spend the last 30 years in a shed in the back, attic,> or> > musty basement.  The "value" disintegrates quickly.> >> ...> > Bill> >>> That is where the "back office" part of what I'm working on comes into> play.  I'm working to put in place a team/staff that will be able to travel> out to where the collection is and handle the disgorgement for the> surviving spouse or family.  But as I mentioned, this is still a ways> away.  For now, I can offer the trust documents needed to at least put> instructions in place in the event of one's untimely demise.  It's a start.>> Sellam>I would start with the biggest collectors who can afford to do it right.Bill

Ditching a collection is a full time job. It took you so many years to put it together and it will take the same amount of time to part it out if you expect to get any real money out of it (unless you sell the most wanted items and recycle the rest). -----Original Message----- From: brad via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 12:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: brad Subject: [cctalk] Re: Revocable Living Trust for Computer Collectors I have thought about this a lot.. and as I begin to creep into my 50s and experience real aging and the health issues that sometimes come with that, I am giving serious thought to liquidating well before I die. Even at very conservative average ebay values I've got a lot of money tied up in this mess. I don't even want to think what I've spent to have FedEx make their best attempts at parcel destruction over the years.I don't want to leave it to my family to dispose of all this stuff at a future time when possibly my generation is shuffling off this world and prices start to crater, as I suspect they will for most of it eventually. I can see some GenZ and on down taking an interest in vintage machines but not nearly enough to hold up a price floor.It's either that or instruct they be entombed in my mausoleum with me, for the enjoyment of future grave robbers/treasure hunters.BSent from my Galaxy -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

When you sell it as a lot all you are doing is taking pennies on the dollar and the buyer gets all the profit. If collecting starts to decline the buyer still makes money, if the hobby goes up they make even more money. The issue starts to suck more if you actually paid a pretty penny for your collectables and then want to cash out. Plenty of people started collecting what was pretty much trash (before e-waste was even a thing and Ebay didn't exist yet) and those people will make out well either way. I remember as a teen going to a coin/stamp shop and seeing people in suits show up to buy the place out with a suitcase full of cash for maybe $15% of catalog value when stamp collecting was going crazy in the early 1980's. Granted he probably would have been better off auctioning his best stuff at that time and burning the rest as collecting has been going down every year since (except for some rarities here and there). -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Abraham via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 12:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Sellam Abraham Subject: [cctalk] Re: Revocable Living Trust for Computer Collectors On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 9:31 AM Teo Zenios via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: This is very true, as I discovered when I began selling off (what remained of) my collection in 2017. I thought I'd get it all out in a year or so. It's been 7 years and I'm still at it, with no real end in sight. Granted I haven't been working on it diligently, and I still ended up with 40 pallets of stuff after the Great Vintage Computing Heist of 2012, but disgorging a large collection is in fact a major undertaking, unless you're willing to sell it all at one price, and can find such a buyer to take it in one lot. Sellam -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

In the meantime, set up price lists, and means for contacting survivors. And compete over who will charge the least to haul it all away. When I die, my sister has a list of email addresses, including this list and a few individuals. Show up with a truck, and make sure that she sees that you also have a broom, a mop, and a shop-vac. Then quote the best price for the "clean-out". If the auction starts to get into positive numbers, offer brass musical instruments. Chuck will have a MAJOR edge at that point (Who could possibly compete with tubas?). (she plays French Horn, Alp-horn, and any other "brass" instrument, and I have even seen her with a left-handed floogle horn.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, W2HX via cctalk wrote:

Everyone have their collections appraised and see what their worth. Might be eye-opening. Sent from my iPhone

On 6/26/2024 8:07 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: As someone who just had to recently dispose of a collection (not PC, but still), the above might be extreme, but there's truth in there. 10 garages full of collections (multiple: vintage collectible cars, old tools, washing machine engines, collectible farm equipment, old growth oak pulled from houses, timbers from 1900 era cribs and sheds, record players (Victrola, etc.), vintage kitchen appliance, etc.), interspersed with nominal materials and some junk. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.5088326641182317&type=3 Tens of thousands of square feet of stuff. Too packed to easily auction In a word, overwhelming.  Being tech savvy, one could look some things up, but even that task is overwhelming.  You can implicitly know the Maytag engines were worth money, but assigning value to most items is hard.  Some of the very big items were easy to parcel out (the automobiles, etc.), but the tools, lumber, appliances, etc were nearly impossible to fathom. The wife could not even bear to go to the largest building (~6000 sqft), but all of it still being there stressed her out, on top of grieving the loss of her partner of 50+ years. She doesn't need the money, and looking at the items just brought back memories of trips they'd taken to pick things up.  Some of the purchases were good memories, and some were not (they sometimes disagreed on whether to buy an item).  Who wants to deal with all that? On the other hand, the presence of the items was comforting to the youngest daughter, who spent hours each year tagging along to buy items and build the collections. Cleaning out the locations meant removing the one final memory of her father. And, some of the properties were garages adjoining rental homes that needed to be sold, so delaying the cleanup was delaying the sale of the properties. I would not wish this on anyone, even my worst enemy. As much as it hurt, someone had to go in, take stock of what was important, and call cleaners to take the rest to the trash/recycling center. Knowing full well some irreplaceable and incredibly important or valuable items ended up in a landfill. There was simply no other way to deal with this.  And, it had to be done quickly, both to free up the properties for sale and to "rip off the bandaid" on feelings from the youngest daughter. I don't know if the Revocable Living Trust is the right mechanism, but I can say that just leaving this to your loved ones or your children is almost an unforgivable offense. If you care for your friends and family at all, I beg each member of this list to find a way to document your items and what you'd like done with them after your passing. If they choose not to follow your wishes, that's on them, but leaving this activity solely to them is unconscionable. If I had a book or some papers (or even a video) noting what we of interest/importance, and what didn't really matter, I'd have felt so much better about the process.  Doing the work was lots of work, but it was not nearly as hard to making decisions about what to care about, and knowing that mistakes were made and there was no way to fix them. If any of you want money from your collection, pull up your pants and sell it off while you're still around. Buyers will enjoy your stories about the items and you can gain some satisfaction seeing the seeds you plant dispersing your collection. But, don't harbor any delusions that keeping it is going to be a windfall for your family when you depart. It's not. Dad, I loved how much collecting meant to you, but you left a huge mess to clean up and it's a shame it's the last thing I'll remember about you. Jim

*nod* And then there's the PERQ tapes and schematics that we rescued from Bob Davis' house over a decade after he died in a tragic accident. That may be the last and only copy of PERQ OS and application files, he was the guardian of those systems. The writer and maintainer of the FAQ. And everything he had was almost lost forever. Like tears in rain..... CZ (I miss Bob. I look forward to seeing that stuff in a museum with a nice description of who he was and what he did)..... On 6/26/2024 10:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 9:17 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Not necessarily. It depends on the trash in question. The second-hand market is huge, and the computer collecting hobby is currently a thriving part of it. As long as there's time and worth (there is) to list everything on eBay, doing so at the very least will ensure that the stuff ends up in appreciative hands. I don't subscribe to this idea that just because stuff gets sold on eBay means it'll never again see the light of day. First of all, it's better than going into a dumpster. And second, it takes money to buy stuff on eBay. The trend is up, and this stuff ain't cheap anymore. And third, the people buying stuff on eBay are people like me, people who work at computer museums, or run their own, etc. The stuff on eBay is probably going to a collector that's probably going to make use of it or appreciate it. LGR and Brad Hodges (YouTubers) are two people that regularly feature stuff they buy off eBay on their channels. Bottom line is that vintage computer stuff now has a lot of value, and there's a generation of younger people coming up behind my generation that has a definite interest in this stuff, from the 1990s PCs all the way back to 1940s mainframes. So even if they were to hire one of those companies that comes and hauls everything away and sells it all on eBay and gives a cut back to the owner, it will still result in much of your effort to preserve historical computer stuff not at all being in vain. Bonus if you leave behind a detailed inventory with historical notes. My longer term plan is to die with one Uhaul load or less of Stuff, and A good plan. You're way ahead of the game. Sellam

All very good points. This is why I'm putting together the organization I've described. It is to fill in where the surviving family members can't take on the burden. Sellam On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, 11:25 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On 6/27/2024 9:36 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Bill, I empathize with your comments. As you note, to successfully realize financial value from these items, one needs to be willing to put them into the various marketplaces, potential customers need to be comfortable with you as a seller, and customers need to find your pricing reasonable. I'm a business concern and even I am loathe to try to list items I have on the various marketplaces, for the reasons you note. Some people on this list have the "presence" and patience to see good results, but I don't think many of us do. Still, as long as we're talking about those of us here pricing, packing, and selling items, I wish everyone great transactions and positive experiences. The idea of leaving these items behind and thinking our loved ones will see any value from selling is ludicrous, though, and I question the sanity of those who seriously believe this. While I am sure there are exceptions to the rule, I do not believe there are many. I still say, if you think it is worth something, make sure you sell it yourself while you are still alive. Jim

On 6/27/2024 10:41 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: Lightening the mood a bit: I assume it's different from systems of different eras, but I remember some of the early home game consoles being in boxes at garage sales in the late 1980s for pennies.  Then, in the early 2000s, I drove around to many widows' and "downsizing so I can move into a retirement apt" users' homes and "rescued" home computers. Some of the duplicate items that were obviously of value I sold, but I kept most since I didn't see a path to selling and realizing a profit. Time moved on, and companies relocated me to different states, packing and dragging all of this stuff to new homes. When we arrived in our current home, the movers moved so many computer monitors they started taking bets on how many I had (I didn't know, I just stacked them up as I rescued them).  I think they tallied 44 in total. Now, of course the market for home computers has greatly expanded, and what was once given away is now worth a tidy some of money. I do wonder, though, when the market will fall back down on certain era machines.  It appears classic cars (well kept and restored, of course) continue to appreciate in value, but I am not sure the same will apply to computing technology. Jim -- Jim Brain brain(a)jbrain.com www.jbrain.com

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:22 AM Jim Brain via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Over the years I have more often than not been critical of eBay for one reason or another, but since I re-established an account and began selling off my remaining collection (aside from a slightly rocky start due to PayPal always withholding payments because of the newness of my account, and similar with eBay for sales over $1,000) I've had pretty much nothing but a positive experience with it. I don't know if I've hit the right formula or am just very conscientious with my listings and sales (I am) but it works for me and I really have no complaints. eBay has actually been very good to me with disputes as well (pretty much haven't lost any, even when the stupid buyer in one instance tried to do an end-run around eBay and cancelled the transaction through his bank), especially after I became a "Top Rated Seller" (I only lost that status due to inactivity from being in and out of the hospital for most of the past 9 months). I actually first began selling from my own "website" (the afore-linked Google Sheets "store" I set up) which I would flog here and on VCFed forums, and through which I initially sold quite a bit. I then learned that there was a lot of vintage computing activity on Facebook, so I logged in there and started finding all the vintage computing groups, set up my own page to sell, and started advertising it around, as well as my Google Sheets page, and met with a lot of success there. My terms were always payment through PayPal via "Friends & Family" (based on my previous reputation) and it worked out fine, I never had a problem with anyone. Anything that didn't sell on FB within a certain amount of time I would eventually list on eBay (for much higher). The idea of leaving the se items behind and thinking our loved ones will I don't think it's as bad as you and Bill make it out to be. But then, I have a vision. Not bad advice at all. Sellam

I also have a whole pile of stuff that needs to go "somewhere". Sounds like we more need a "make offer" page. Is there somewhere on the net that already does this? mcl

Look in the for sale forums at vcfed.org. ' The Vintage Computer Federation. On 6/27/2024 10:46 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote:

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Ali via cctalk wrote: I generally don't like "make an offer", unless the seller has already stated an offer. If so,then I can decide whether what I want to pay is in a range that they would discuss it. Otherwise,it is usually futile to start a discussion. All too often, the seller wants far more than I would consider. In flea markets (Foothill, etc.) I will sometimes say, "Would you be offended if I offered xx?" Sometimes, they are. But, sometimes they respond with "I wouldn't be offended, but I wouldn't accept that." That at least gives a starting point for potential negotiation. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Thu, 27 Jun 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: absolutely eBay "make an offer" is actually a "counter-offer", since the seller has already posted some sort of price. Those can be quite productive. The ones that I don't like are ones (particularly flea-market) where the seller refuses to give any indication of what they want, and demands that the potential buyer make the first offer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On 6/27/2024 10:09 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I'm interested in this, but.. - How would they be compensated? - How would it be ensured that they didn't have a conflict of interest, or bias, (or an actual interest in the collection)? - How much would such a service cost, or be priced? JohnS.

At 10:46 PM 6/27/2024, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: When I had to quickly move/disburse my office warehouse cache two years ago, I had a trusted friend who was interested in reselling. I offered him a 50/50 split. I let him take (almost) whatever he wanted. He took maybe three minivans worth. I'm still quite content with the terms of that deal, as well as what he's paid me. I still have roughly 1,200 square feet of stuff to deal with. - John

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 8:18 PM js--- via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I'm still working this out. It'll be fee based, including maybe some kind of periodic "subscription" fee. But usually the trust indenture specifies how the expenses are going to be paid, and I imagine in a typical case the fees to disgorge the collection will come from the sale of the collection itself. Sellam

It is important to realize that there are two kinds of shopping browsing: have decided to buy one, and looking for best deal or looking for bargains, and will buy if there are any exceptional deals "make an offer" is only suitable for the first of those.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain. Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in 2024 dollars). I declined their "help" and the package went back to the seller to fix. I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear. -ethan

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 4:12 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Shipping from USA to Canada is almost if not as or even more expensive than shipping to Europe sometimes. Not so much in the reverse direction, which is weird--when I buy something on eBay from Canada the shipping is not that bad. None of it makes sense, which leads me to believe it's because it's all based on the politics of stupid. Sellam

A few years ago some kind soul sent me a couple of 5 1/4" HS Vector Graphic diskettes from Minnesota to Toronto; as I recall, it cost him about U$2.00. After copying them I forwarded them to another VG owner in Winnipeg, a few hundred miles from the original sender, and it cost C$10.00! Australia and New Zealand are pretty costly as well; you really have to want whatever it is ;-) And don't talk to me about UPS or other customs brokers! m On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:12 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:02 PM Yeechang Lee via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I have always shipped to anywhere in the world that eBay allows and rarely ever had a problem with it. Everything was made substantially easier (and cheaper) with eBay International Standard Delivery, and now with eIS. The only real problem I ever encountered was a Chinese address that I just could not get eBay to recognize (after a failed attempt where the package was picked up by UPS and then returned the next day because they couldn't read the address on the all-Chinese label...I still don't understand why they didn't just scan it and figure out where it's going that way) but the buyer provided a Hong Kong address instead and that fixed things. The only added step for selling to a foreign buyer on eBay was filling a couple boxes with information for the customs form, which pretty much already had the HS code filled out. You just needed to fill in the actual weight of the product (vs. the product+packaging). Very simple. Sellam

Except cost, time, and of course poor tracking. I haven't used eIS to ship from the US but GSP (which I believe the same thing) to get stuff to the US specially from the UK. I have found in general you pay more, it takes longer, and there is less transparency. It is a good option to expand market reach for small sellers in that it removes headache, cost, and learning curve but the customer ends up paying for the seller's ease. However, if the alternative is not have the opportunity to get an item then it is of course worth it. -Ali

Again I am talking about getting stuff from the UK to the US. Generally speaking it seems like shipping from the US to anywhere (except maybe China) is cheaper than the opposite direction. I.e. for me to ship to Canada, Australia, Europe generally is much cheaper than if I was to buy the same item and have them ship it to me from those destinations. YMMV. -Ali

On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I have a trading buddy in England. I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK). Once enough stuff is accumulated on his end, he packs it all together and sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's still kinda pricey. This all works in reverse too, of course. Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy. I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship across the pond both ways pre-2020. Sellam

On 2024-07-01 6:31 p.m., Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: It is just nobody wants to box and crate the stuff,and wait a few weeks on a ship any more. Ben. PS I suspect some people have so much stuff here, they could ship, to Australia, it could flip to up over.

Could you just carry it, and tell them that it is the disk for your "Personal Computer"? :-) 'course you might need to carry the computer with you to convince them :-) On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, cz via cctalk wrote:

I use MyUS for that.. I think they have a UK place also.  Fees are okay and they will store things for up to 3 months and then ship things in a single bundle.Without them my collection would never have happened.Sent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Mike Stein via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Date: 2024-07-01 5:32 p.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: Sellam Abraham &lt;sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com&gt;om>, Mike Stein &lt;mhs.stein(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: what to do with our "treasures" I've had the same experience with folks in Australia & NZ,accumulating stuff in the US until there's enough to ship it downunder.On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:07 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk&lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:>> On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 2:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt;&gt; wrote:>> > On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 7:58 AM Liam Proven via cctalk> > &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:> > > ... vendors mostly> > > refuse to ship internationally and buyers won't look at stuff that's> > > abroad.> >> > If you aren't used to customs declaration forms, it can be a pain.> > Back in the 80s, I bought an Amiga accessory from a 2-man shop in> > Canada and they hadn't done a cross-border shipment before and because> > they didn't get it right, UPS held my package at the border and the> > Customs Broker wanted $80 USD to fill out a 1/2 page form ($220 in> > 2024 dollars).  I declined their "help" and the package went back to> > the seller to fix.> >> > I rarely buy from overseas sellers because $30-$40/kg postage is too dear.> >> > -ethan> >>> I have a trading buddy in England.  I search eBay UK for stuff I'm seeking> and he also keeps an eye out for stuff he knows I like, and he buys it for> me and has it shipped to his place (shipping is very cheap within the UK).> Once enough stuff is accumulated  on his end, he packs it all together and> sends it as one big bundle, which saves immensely on shipping, but it's> still kinda pricey.  This all works in reverse too, of course.>> Suggestion: find yourself a UK or Euro-based trading buddy.>> I'm not sure what happened--it probably had something to do with Brexit, or> the Biden admin--but I remember it being a lot more reasonable to ship> across the pond both ways pre-2020.>> Sellam

Hda weighs about 50lbs so you aren’t carrying it very far. Sent from my iPhone

Airline baggage used to be a good deal. Size limit on carry-on, weight limit on checked. Sending a tech with parts on a plane was often much cheaper than rush shipping. I remember flying cross country with a pair of VW cylinder heads, two clutch disks, some hand tools, and a loaf of french bread, in order to do a clutch on my parent's bug, and a valve job on their Ghia. Even counting air fare, and 3 hours rental of a floor jack (optional), with a few hours work, I saved them a substantial amount of money. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

On Mon, 1 Jul 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Well, Tannenbaum's adage was about a STATION WAGON "hurtling" down the highway, so comparing airflight introduces other variables. :-)

Not an unreasonable idea with today's drones... On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 10:51 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Hey, I sent you a motherboard from Toronto all the way to the South Pole, remember? Well, OK, via San Francisco, but It wasn't too bad then. Canada to US customs forms (just one, actually) have actually been simplified, but alas, postage rates are still outrageous. m On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 5:12 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Ask Ethan; I suppose a lot of stuff did actually get left behind. On Mon, Jul 1, 2024 at 8:28 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Chris, the baggage handlers don’t handle things gently so if you could check it ( it’s probably too heavy anyway) it would get broken. Sent from my iPhone

Brexit made a big difference to postage costs from EU to UK but I don't think affected US costs much. However eBay's US all-inclusive postage seemed very expensive compared with USPS, and many sellers using independent methods have now got very expensive too. I'm not sure if prices have risen to match or if there's some other influence. Chinese to UK shipments are still relatively cheap but have also risen somewhat with more sellers charging for postage. I think eBay and Aliexpress are managing (surcharging) the increased import costs that UK and other governments are imposing. I recall getting a huge 16500B from the US a few years ago for a fairly reasonable shipping cost but now just the plug-in cards have shipping prices of $100 - often more than the card. I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost. Postage costs are a major factor at the moment and I rarely need things fast. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:42 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

"I'd be glad to find a way to access US sales at reasonable cost" Might be worth investigating MyUS. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 7:42 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

This is done to some extent on https://www.homeworkshop.org.uk/ (also a good model for a non-ebay trading site). A few members - mostly those from the days of rec.models.uk - with frequent business runs across the country will store-and-forward items. That can work on UK distances but I'm not sure about USA - and very unlikely transatlantic. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 5:27 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Rather than trying a kind o fidonet like transportation system why don't we work together to negotiate a rate with a national electronic equipment mover. Maybe through the ausipices of an existing non-profit organization like the VCFED or maybe an organization of museums. Good luck. On 7/2/2024 12:33 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Jul 3, 2024 at 7:42 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: May as well just use Pirate Ship then, because they will always have the most competitive rates with their volume. Sellam

On Tue, 2 Jul 2024, Adrian Godwin via cctalk wrote: eBay Chinese shipping seems impossibly low. Does the Chinese guvmint sunsidize shipping exports? Does that influence the balance of trade? (and demise of USA industry?) Decades ago, USA was concerned about "dumping" (charging excessively low prices for exports to USA). They decided that RAM was being "dumped", "in order to drive out USA competition", so USA set up punitive tariffs on handheld power tools, and LCD panels (which contributed to the elimination of laptop manufacturing in USA). I don't understand why the punitive tariffs were not on the items being "abused". Jerry Pournelle said, "How get we get them to dump Mercedes?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

I was once told that the Chinese government subsidises post in exchange for getting prompt tax returns. Don't know how true that is. There's also some sort of agreement between postal services that means every country gets uncharged local deliveries in the destination countries in exchange for uncharged local deliveries in china. I think this is how the subsidy works - the chinese post being government owned can arrange their accounting so they don't have to balance these sums out. Thus exporters can aggregate their deliveries into a bulk carrier (hence the delay that's longer than DHL/UPS) and pay nothing for the last leg. On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 8:27 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Tue, Jul 2, 2024 at 2:10 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Previous US president forced a re-eval of this. Which is why now if you buy from AliExpress it's all third party shipper with sometimes USPS only handling the last mile. It used to all be China Post but the US was getting a horrid deal. https://www.vox.com/2018/10/19/17996378/trump-china-universal-postal-union-… Under the old Global Shipping Program there were still some odd cases where a seller could be hit with a SNAD claim but under the new EIS it's basically impossible. eBay just eats it in all cases. Of course you'll get barred from the program if you have too many returns or other negative stats. Under the GSP I had a case where an item of mine got "lost", everyone was made whole and the item appeared again from a different seller (who'd bought it from an auction) and he just used my same photos. Funny.

On 2024-07-02 1:05 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Keep it that way, I need more IC's for a 16 bit computer. Now we talk about it? HOW many clone APPLE II's do we need to return. Why not the "hunger marketing" of APPLE?

On 27/06/2024 19:30, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: An extra problem for us living outside the US is that freight/ postage charges often makes even interested people go "no thanks". Julf

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 7:04 PM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: This is a really good idea. And then upload it to YouTube. Sellam

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 12:53 PM Ali via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Buyers aren't stupid, quality listings where it is clear that the seller has put time and effort into creating the listing are appealing. If I list an item as "used" under eBay then I make sure it's clean, I make sure that I have tested it and I state this. I also provide as many photographs as eBay allows and they are of good quality. If I can't fully test it, I list it as condition "for parts or repair" and state what I've tested and what I've not. I see so many sellers listing stuff as "used" with poor photos and often some "as-is" disclaimer in the text body. I don't know why sellers do this as eBay is going to force them to take an item back at their own expense. I don't sell much on eBay for entirely different reasons; I find their fees to be BS. .

Simple answer: price is what a buyer will give for the item, and the seller will accept. It is a psychological thing, not an objective metric and not a constant or anything that can be determined by analyzing what the item is. For example, consider "luxury goods". The WSJ a few days ago had an article about luxury handbags (Hermes, I think), which have a list price of $12k or so, can be immediately resold on the used market for almost double that, but cost perhaps $1k to make. Conversely, an RK05 may have had a list price over $10k new, a parts cost certainly of several thousands of dollars, a cost to reproduce that I can't guess at but is bound to be high, a sentimental value that's all over the map. But what can you sell it for, if anything? Not much, I suspect. Those asking prices are simply attempts to see if someone is willing to pay that. If not, not much harm done, except to the extent that it turns away people who might be interested at a better price and now won't even bid. You can call it an attempt to find suckers, but it might also be a realization that people vary wildly in what they will pay for weird things, and it may also in part be a case of the seller not having much of an idea about the market. paul

Some sellers are also doing that to protect themselves from a massive buyer's fraud. I can say, nobody is standing for sellers and that's the reason you could see this. Have to say, I had the situation where I actually sold broken gear for parts. Buyer received it, took the part he wanted and then filed a claim. He won it despite those conditions and returned it. eBay forced to take my money, however I filed the appeal, once I got the package back and recognized a fraud. Didn't lead anywhere... On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 2:16 PM Tony Jones via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: -- Andrei Kudryavtsev, Deftaudio www.deftaudio.com Manufacturing Luma-1 Drum Machine <https://www.instagram.com/luma1_drum_machine> My last album *Two Match - The 1st Fill* on iTunes <http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/the-1st-fill/id1241529125> and Spotify <https://open.spotify.com/album/4aM8DzmN5yi4ho1gcmC8ls> Follow me on Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/andrei.kudryavtsev.5>, Instagram <https://www.instagram.com/deftaudio/>

Well if it is for parts then you better also describe it as such. None of that "it worked the last time I used it", looks real clean, stored well, etc. etc. because a buyer can also return it for those reasons (it worked the last time you used it great then when I use it, it better work as well). I actually see some of the Japanese sellers play at this BS. They just put down junk, trash, not working for description and list for 100s to 1000s of dollars. Of course for some reason their stuff never sells and keeps getting relisted? LOL. So have you sold your really popular and expensive board yet? Or are people passing it buy because it isn't working and costs way too much for "non-working parts"? -Ali

Not true at all. Exactly. All these games sellers try to play never work out. People are willing to buy on eBay because at the end of the day you rarely have to worry about a seller successfully scamming you. If you want to avoid refunds there are only two choices: 1. Sell what you are advertising and don't over hype it trying to get more money 2. Sell real cheap so that the hassle of committing fraud, returning the item, waiting weeks for a refund is not worth it to the fraudsters. So I ask again using these tactics have you sold your really popular and expensive board yet? Or are people passing it buy because it isn't working and costs way too much for "non-working parts"? -Ali

Which is exactly what is driving the predatory pricing and massive increase in the cost of items. The sellers know this and are banking on it. Also to be clear my original points were made when the discussion was talking about "our" personal collections and what future heirs could/would do with them. When you start talking about businesses who have no skin in the game (i.e. they don't care if they are recycling an IBM 5100, an Apple IIc, or a microwave) it’s a whole different ball game with its own set of rules. -Ali

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 10:31 AM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: There is zero need to get personal. Please stop. Ditto for the earlier "does not know what he's talking about" comment.

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 11:00 AM Ali &lt;cctalk(a)ibm51xx.net&gt; wrote: "predatory"? Sellers are hunting you down to consume your finances? You have no agency in the matter, but are forced to open your wallet and dispense cash once they catch up with you? Sellam

My conclusion would be: avoid eBay and use an honest third party instead. paul

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 10:26 AM Tony Jones via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: At the end of the day, I'm effectively selling "junk". I don't want anything back. In the rare event my buyer receives something that turns out to be not as described, I'm happy to work with the buyer to arrive at a mutually agreed compromise, and refund them what they believe is fair. I also follow through and file insurance claims when it's clearly the shippers fault (everything I pack is done so as if it were priceless), and have gotten more than a few claims processed successfully over the years. This is part of why I have 100% feedback on almost 900 transactions across 7 years. I'm extremely conscientious as a seller. My account name is "General Computer" if anyone cares. Sellam

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 2:57 PM Ali via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: You don't seem to understand that eBay's customers are its sellers. As a buyer, you're the seller's customer. Sellam

On Fri, Jun 28, 2024 at 11:00 AM Ali via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Like I said, and as you just proved (again), you have no idea what you're talking about. Sellam

No comment ;) And how does that help? Let's say seller has 98% rating what does that tell you? Or said in another way how does it affect your decision making process? I.E. would you pay 30% or even 10% more for the same item with a seller who has 100% rating (for whatever that is worth as ratings are very much manipulated by sellers and eBay). -Ali

On 6/27/24 2:09 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: The feedback mechanism is biased towards giving positive feedback, so I read a lot of feedback comments. I bid on the item and, within my budget and what I think is reasonable, the price is what it is. Most of what I am looking for is sun3 and non-Sun SPARC systems which don't come up often. I look at what the seller has sold before to help judge whether the description is accurate. alan

On Thu, Jun 27, 2024 at 2:03 PM Ali via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: This is very true. It's very hard to leave negative feedback that a seller can't get removed (if they try).

Read it again. Both of us are saying sellers can get negatives removed with ease. In fact standard eBay policy is if you made a full refund then they will remove the negative FB. Apparently in eBay's eyes the buyer is made whole and so shouldn't have anything to gripe about even if their time was wasted, their money was held up for weeks, they did not get the item they wanted to etc. etc. Hmmm... Should I be filing a libel suit? LOL. Whatever makes you happy man.... Best of luck to you. -Ali

IMHO it's time the two of you take this mini-discussion offline. mcl

Sellam joined the ccmp discord as "Chumba" and, among other things, claimed long covid is not real, and doubled down on similar incendiary topics. When we found out it was Sellam, he complained about getting "doxed". Due to his toxic behaviour, myself and at least 2 others left the discord we had been part of for years. He is now threatening me with legal action, claiming that his behaviour was not trolling, or perhaps that Chumba was not a pseudonym since the server admin apparently knew it was him? So this is to clarify his behaviour was toxic, and resulted in multiple people leaving the discord, before and after they found out who "Chumba" was. Whether that is "trolling" I suppose is up to interpretation. He demanded I not reply to him, so I had to create a new thread. :) -Eric

I'm not involved, Sellam, but just the ignore the trolls.  Life is too short. On 6/25/2024 9:33 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

2nd this. Sent from my iPhone

Agreed. Keep this OT first-time-on-the-internet drama out of my inbox, please. - squidward On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 12:22 AM CJ Reha via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: