12 Aug
2023
12 Aug
'23
6:11 p.m.
I have a Gesswein MFM emulator from decromancer.ca; who offer an adaptor that yields a 2nd
MFM data connector.
I'll use mine in a Microvax 2000. Does anyone know how to hook it up as two MFM
drives in a Microvax 2000?
The vendor sold a 1in high adaptor box, BA40A, with DD50 connectors to a second cabinet
(same as CPU box) for a second drive.
DEC configured both primary and secondary drives identically (drive 3, IIRC). The
Microvax 2000 Technical Manual gives the pinout from the mother board to the MFM/floppy
daughterboard, but I can't find the pinout from that daughterboard to the cables
anywhere.
I've been looking for a BA40A, for some years now, to trace the pin layout for a 2nd
drive. Does anyone know it?
Has anyone successfully configured a single MFM emulator as two MFM drives in a Microvax
2000? Or to an RQDX3?
12 Aug
12 Aug
6:35 p.m.
I have a Gesswein MFM emulator from decromancer.ca; who offer an adaptor
that yields a 2nd MFM data connector.
I'll use mine in a Microvax 2000. Does anyone know how to hook it up as
two MFM drives in a Microvax 2000?
The vendor sold a 1in high adaptor box, BA40A, with DD50 connectors to a
second cabinet (same as CPU box) for a second drive.
DEC configured both primary and secondary drives identically (drive 3, IIRC).
The Microvax 2000 Technical Manual gives the pinout from the mother board
to the MFM/floppy daughterboard, but I can't find the pinout from that
daughterboard to the cables anywhere.
I've been looking for a BA40A, for some years now, to trace the pin layout
for a 2nd drive. Does anyone know it?
Has anyone successfully configured a single MFM emulator as two MFM drives
in a Microvax 2000? Or to an RQDX3?
I've had two real MFM drives running with one of my VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000
machines but it is a long time since I've looked at this stuff so I'm not
certain of the details.
I didn't use any adapter box or cables with DD connectors. I only had the
original DEC ribbon cable that connects from the VAX motherboard to one MFM
drive and one RX33 floppy drive. I used this as a guide to make up a new
longer cable with an extra 34 pin edge connector in parallel with the first
MFM drive control connector. I ran this cable out through the hole in the
bottom of the case where the cable to the adapter box was intended to run
so that the added connector could be placed on an external MFM drive.
I also connected a straight through 20 pin IDC to edge connector ribbon cable
salvaged from a PC from the vacant 20 pin IDC connector on the VAX motherboard
to the data connector on the second MFM drive, running it out through the
same hole in the VAX case.
IIRC I had to jumper the second MFM drive as drive 4. Presumably I should
have made a twist in the cable to allow the second MFM drive to be configured
as drive 3, the same as the first drive.
I think the first MFM drive showed up as DUA0, the second one as DUA1 and the
floppy as DUA2.
I recall an incident when I tried to connect one particular second MFM drive
externally and the VAX refused to power up. It seemed the overcurrent trip
was operating in the power supply and the extra drive appeared to be the
cause of this. I'm a bit hazy on exactly what I did to try to get around
this issue, I suspect I tried powering up the VAX with the drive disconnected
and connecting it after power up. Anyway, the upshot was that one or two of
the conductors in the 20 pin data cable got extremely hot and the insulation
on them started to smoke before I quickly switched off. I'm not sure but I
think the reason was that the particular drive placed an unfused +5V on some
pins on the data connector and the corresponding pins were grounded at the
VAX end. Or it could be the other way around... Luckily there was no damage
to anything other than the cable.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
7:45 p.m.
From memory, when I looked into doing this I found that the RQDX3 BA23 distribution panel
maps DS2 from the contriller to all DS pins on the B cable of one drive and DS3 to all DS
lines on the other. I never did test the theory though. I did not get a special adapter
from decromancer.
Hope it helps
Nigel
On August 12, 2023 6:35:35 p.m. EDT, Peter Coghlan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I have a Gesswein MFM emulator from decromancer.ca; who offer an adaptor
that yields a 2nd MFM data connector.
I'll use mine in a Microvax 2000. Does anyone know how to hook it up as
two MFM drives in a Microvax 2000?
The vendor sold a 1in high adaptor box, BA40A, with DD50 connectors to a
second cabinet (same as CPU box) for a second drive.
DEC configured both primary and secondary drives identically (drive 3, IIRC).
The Microvax 2000 Technical Manual gives the pinout from the mother board
to the MFM/floppy daughterboard, but I can't find the pinout from that
daughterboard to the cables anywhere.
I've been looking for a BA40A, for some years now, to trace the pin layout
for a 2nd drive. Does anyone know it?
Has anyone successfully configured a single MFM emulator as two MFM drives
in a Microvax 2000? Or to an RQDX3?
I've had two real MFM drives running with one of my VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000
machines but it is a long time since I've looked at this stuff so I'm not
certain of the details.
I didn't use any adapter box or cables with DD connectors. I only had the
original DEC ribbon cable that connects from the VAX motherboard to one MFM
drive and one RX33 floppy drive. I used this as a guide to make up a new
longer cable with an extra 34 pin edge connector in parallel with the first
MFM drive control connector. I ran this cable out through the hole in the
bottom of the case where the cable to the adapter box was intended to run
so that the added connector could be placed on an external MFM drive.
I also connected a straight through 20 pin IDC to edge connector ribbon cable
salvaged from a PC from the vacant 20 pin IDC connector on the VAX motherboard
to the data connector on the second MFM drive, running it out through the
same hole in the VAX case.
IIRC I had to jumper the second MFM drive as drive 4. Presumably I should
have made a twist in the cable to allow the second MFM drive to be configured
as drive 3, the same as the first drive.
I think the first MFM drive showed up as DUA0, the second one as DUA1 and the
floppy as DUA2.
I recall an incident when I tried to connect one particular second MFM drive
externally and the VAX refused to power up. It seemed the overcurrent trip
was operating in the power supply and the extra drive appeared to be the
cause of this. I'm a bit hazy on exactly what I did to try to get around
this issue, I suspect I tried powering up the VAX with the drive disconnected
and connecting it after power up. Anyway, the upshot was that one or two of
the conductors in the 20 pin data cable got extremely hot and the insulation
on them started to smoke before I quickly switched off. I'm not sure but I
think the reason was that the particular drive placed an unfused +5V on some
pins on the data connector and the corresponding pins were grounded at the
VAX end. Or it could be the other way around... Luckily there was no damage
to anything other than the cable.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan. 
7:59 p.m.
On August 12, 2023 6:35:35 p.m. EDT, Peter Coghlan via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> IIRC I had to jumper the second MFM drive as drive 4. Presumably I should
> have made a twist in the cable to allow the second MFM drive to be configured
> as drive 3, the same as the first drive.
On Sat, 12 Aug 2023, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
From memory,
when I looked into doing this I found that the RQDX3 BA23
distribution panel maps DS2 from the contriller to all DS pins on the B
cable of one drive and DS3 to all DS lines on the other. I never did
test the theory though. I did not get a special adapter from
decromancer.
Hope it helps 
9:07 p.m.
As far as i know, winchester drive selects have always been 1-4, at
least in the DEC world!
Reference MP-02259-01 RQDX3 Field Maintenance print set. Also Plessey
DCV54 manual.
I don't know about PCs- I went into teaching when the PC came out 'cos
there wasn't enough money in PCs! I was getting $90 and hour in the DEC
world and people were working for $20-30 in the PC world :-(
Nigel
On 2023-08-12 19:59, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Could y'all clarify for me,
Do you mean "drive 3" and "drive 4" of drives 1-4, or 0-3?
do you mean "DS2" and "DS3" of DS0-DS3, or DS1-DS4?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
On August 12,
2023 6:35:35 p.m. EDT, Peter Coghlan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> IIRC I had to jumper the second MFM drive as drive 4. Presumably I
> should
> have made a twist in the cable to allow the second MFM drive to be
> configured
> as drive 3, the same as the first drive.
On Sat, 12 Aug 2023, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote:
From
memory, when I looked into doing this I found that the RQDX3
BA23 distribution panel maps DS2 from the contriller to all DS pins
on the B cable of one drive and DS3 to all DS lines on the other. I
never did test the theory though. I did not get a special adapter
from decromancer.
Hope it helps
10:30 p.m.
> Could y'all clarify for me,
> Do you mean "drive 3" and "drive 4" of drives 1-4, or 0-3?
> do you mean "DS2" and "DS3" of DS0-DS3, or DS1-DS4?
On Sat, 12 Aug 2023, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
As far as i know, winchester drive selects have always
been 1-4, at least in
the DEC world!
Reference MP-02259-01 RQDX3 Field Maintenance print set. Also Plessey DCV54
manual.
I don't know about PCs- I went into teaching when the PC came out 'cos
there wasn't enough money in PCs! I was getting $90 and hour in the DEC
world and people were working for $20-30 in the PC world :-(
Nigel
Thank you!
I wasn't in the DEC world, so I appreciate your taaking the time to tell
me.
I did much more work with varying types of floppy drives, and not so much
hard drives.
Floppy drives are commonly called DS0 - DS2, with a few exceptions.
https://old.pinouts.ru/HD/InternalDisk_pinout.shtml
http://www.interfacebus.com/PC_Floppy_Drive_PinOut.html
But, the Shugart SA400 OEM manual calls them DS1-DS3
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/shugart/SA400%20OEM%20Manual.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA4xx/SA455_SA465_Service.pdf
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/shugart/SA800%20OEM%20Manual.pdf
And the Teac Specifiation calls them DS0-DS3
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/teac/FD-235HF-A529_A540_A591_Specification_Rev…
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/teac/TEAC%20FD-55GFR.pdf
Just to keep it confusing, PC jumpers all floppy drives on the second
position, pin 12 of the SA400 pinout (DS1 of 0-3 or DS2 of 1-4), and then
selects by the cable.
TRS80 set all floppy drive select jumpers ON, and used a cable with only
one of the drive select lines present in the drive connector, to also
select by the cable.
Fourth drive (DS3/DS4) had some complications, as some systems re-defined
that pin of the cable for other uses.
But, I located the Seagate ST506/412 OEM manual
https://minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/Seagate/Seagate%20ST506%20ST412%20-%20…
and, as you said, the drive selects are shown as DS1-DS4.
Wikipedia, however, calls them "DRV SLCT 0" - "DRV SLCT 3"
in its diagram of pinout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Connector_pinouts
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
13 Aug
13 Aug
11:39 a.m.
On 2023-08-12 22:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
You've amplified my point, Fred! When I saw the abomination of
cross-over selects in the cables in the IBM PC, I knew the need for
Field Service Engineers was coming to an end!
I don't believe anything on Wikipedia anymore. When I saw them say that
there is no such thing as a legal definition for a pint of beer in
Canada, I got an actual legal definition from the Federal Government,
created an account on wikipedia, and put in the correct legal definition
with a reference to the law. (It's 568.26 ml btw - make sure you get
that last .26ml :-) )
I week later it had been changed back to the previous text, and I could
not get in to correct it!
Only when they asked me for money did I get to email an actual person to
complain!
cheers,
Nigel
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
> Could
y'all clarify for me,
> Do you mean "drive 3" and "drive 4" of drives 1-4, or 0-3?
> do you mean "DS2" and "DS3" of DS0-DS3, or DS1-DS4?
On Sat, 12 Aug 2023, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
As far as i know, winchester drive selects have
always been 1-4, at
least in the DEC world!
Reference MP-02259-01 RQDX3 Field Maintenance print set. Also
Plessey DCV54 manual.
I don't know about PCs- I went into teaching when the PC came out
'cos there wasn't enough money in PCs! I was getting $90 and hour
in the DEC world and people were working for $20-30 in the PC world :-(
Nigel
Thank you!
I wasn't in the DEC world, so I appreciate your taaking the time to
tell me.
I did much more work with varying types of floppy drives, and not so
much hard drives.
Floppy drives are commonly called DS0 - DS2, with a few exceptions.
https://old.pinouts.ru/HD/InternalDisk_pinout.shtml
http://www.interfacebus.com/PC_Floppy_Drive_PinOut.html
But, the Shugart SA400 OEM manual calls them DS1-DS3
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/shugart/SA400%20OEM%20Manual.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/SA4xx/SA455_SA465_Service.pdf
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/shugart/SA800%20OEM%20Manual.pdf
And the Teac Specifiation calls them DS0-DS3
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/teac/FD-235HF-A529_A540_A591_Specification_Rev…
https://deramp.com/downloads/floppy_drives/teac/TEAC%20FD-55GFR.pdf
Just to keep it confusing, PC jumpers all floppy drives on the second
position, pin 12 of the SA400 pinout (DS1 of 0-3 or DS2 of 1-4), and
then selects by the cable.
TRS80 set all floppy drive select jumpers ON, and used a cable with
only one of the drive select lines present in the drive connector, to
also select by the cable.
Fourth drive (DS3/DS4) had some complications, as some systems
re-defined that pin of the cable for other uses.
But, I located the Seagate ST506/412 OEM manual
https://minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/Seagate/Seagate%20ST506%20ST412%20-%20…
and, as you said, the drive selects are shown as DS1-DS4.
Wikipedia, however, calls them "DRV SLCT 0" - "DRV SLCT 3"
in its diagram of pinout
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST506/ST412#Connector_pinouts
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:11 p.m.
On 8/13/23 08:39, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
You've amplified my point, Fred! When I saw the
abomination of
cross-over selects in the cables in the IBM PC, I knew the need for
Field Service Engineers was coming to an end!
I don't believe anything on Wikipedia anymore. When I saw them say that
there is no such thing as a legal definition for a pint of beer in
Canada, I got an actual legal definition from the Federal Government,
created an account on wikipedia, and put in the correct legal definition
with a reference to the law. (It's 568.26 ml btw - make sure you get
that last .26ml :-) )
I week later it had been changed back to the previous text, and I could
not get in to correct it!
You should see the "interesting" cabling for getting three drives on a
PC controller, using only one cable. Several ISA SCSI and ESDI
controllers could accommodate this on their floppy section..
At least one DTC controller allowed for running 4 drives the way Al
Shugart intended--common motor, different drive selects.
--Chuck
12:18 p.m.
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023, 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 8/13/23 08:39, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk
wrote:
The DEC Rainbow did that... insert rx50 disclaimer... I did it with 2 teac
drives that both spun on any access
and some early NEC computer I saw at computer land iirc... or maybe the
latter just kept the drives spinning
Warner
--Chuck
You've amplified my point, Fred! When I saw
the abomination of
cross-over selects in the cables in the IBM PC, I knew the need for
Field Service Engineers was coming to an end!
I don't believe anything on Wikipedia anymore. When I saw them say that
there is no such thing as a legal definition for a pint of beer in
Canada, I got an actual legal definition from the Federal Government,
created an account on wikipedia, and put in the correct legal definition
with a reference to the law. (It's 568.26 ml btw - make sure you get
that last .26ml :-) )
I week later it had been changed back to the previous text, and I could
not get in to correct it!
You should see the "interesting" cabling for getting three drives on a
PC controller, using only one cable. Several ISA SCSI and ESDI
controllers could accommodate this on their floppy section..
At least one DTC controller allowed for running 4 drives the way Al
Shugart intended--common motor, different drive selects.
12:20 p.m.
On 2023-08-13 12:18, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023, 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via
cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
The DEC Rainbow RX50s only have one motor :-)
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
On 8/13/23 08:39, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk
wrote:
The DEC Rainbow did that... insert rx50 disclaimer... I did it with 2 teac
drives that both spun on any access
and some early NEC computer I saw at computer land iirc... or maybe the
latter just kept the drives spinning
Warner
--Chuck
>
>
You've amplified my point, Fred! When I saw
the abomination of
cross-over selects in the cables in the IBM PC, I knew the need for
Field Service Engineers was coming to an end!
I don't believe anything on Wikipedia anymore. When I saw them say that
there is no such thing as a legal definition for a pint of beer in
Canada, I got an actual legal definition from the Federal Government,
created an account on wikipedia, and put in the correct legal definition
with a reference to the law. (It's 568.26 ml btw - make sure you get
that last .26ml :-) )
I week later it had been changed back to the previous text, and I could
not get in to correct it!
You should see the "interesting" cabling for getting three drives on a
PC controller, using only one cable. Several ISA SCSI and ESDI
controllers could accommodate this on their floppy section..
At least one DTC controller allowed for running 4 drives the way Al
Shugart intended--common motor, different drive selects.
12:25 p.m.
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 5:20 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
The DEC Rainbow RX50s only have one motor :-)
{being pedantic}
No they don't. They have 2. A permanent-magnet DC motor used to drive
both spindles and a stepper motor used to position both heads.
But I will agree it is a lot more usual for a dual floppy drive to
have separate spindle and positioner motors for the 2 disks
(Actually don't the Persci dual 8" drives with voice coil positioners
have a common spindle motor and head positioner for the 2 disks?)
-tony
12:43 p.m.
On 8/13/23 11:25, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 5:20 PM Nigel Johnson Ham via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Yes, absolutely. One spindle motor, with a floppy hub on
each end, and two heads on one voice coil positioner, one
for each floppy. I had one of those. The performance
improvement was VERY marginal. I had to take out the
solenoid that lifted the pad that loaded the media against
the head, the timing of the head loading somehow was all
wrong and allowed it to start writing before the pad had
fully loaded.
Jon
The DEC Rainbow RX50s only have one motor :-)
{being pedantic}
No they don't. They have 2. A permanent-magnet DC motor used to drive
both spindles and a stepper motor used to position both heads.
But I will agree it is a lot more usual for a dual floppy drive to
have separate spindle and positioner motors for the 2 disks
(Actually don't the Persci dual 8" drives with voice coil positioners
have a common spindle motor and head positioner for the 2 disks?)
1:22 p.m.
On 8/13/23 09:43, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, absolutely. One spindle motor, with a floppy hub
on each end, and
two heads on one voice coil positioner, one for each floppy. I had one
of those. The performance improvement was VERY marginal. I had to take
out the solenoid that lifted the pad that loaded the media against the
head, the timing of the head loading somehow was all wrong and allowed
it to start writing before the pad had fully loaded.
Theoretically it could be done with only 2 motors--one spindle motor and
one positioner. Probably not the best for performance, but doable.
--Chuck
3:22 p.m.
> Yes, absolutely. One spindle motor, with a floppy
hub on each end, and
> two heads on one voice coil positioner, one for each floppy. I had one
> of those. The performance improvement was VERY marginal. I had to take
> out the solenoid that lifted the pad that loaded the media against the
> head, the timing of the head loading somehow was all wrong and allowed
> it to start writing before the pad had fully loaded.
On Sun, 13 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Theoretically it could be done with only 2 motors--one
spindle motor and
one positioner. Probably not the best for performance, but doable.
ISTR that one of the "Dual" 5.25" floppy drives worked that way.
It might even have been Canon; there were two models, one with separate
positioners, and one sharing a single positioner.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
3:48 p.m.
Yup; I think I've got a couple of each type somewhere; don't recall who the
other ones were, but two are definitely Canon.
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023 at 3:22 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Yes,
absolutely. One spindle motor, with a floppy hub on each end, and
> two heads on one voice coil positioner, one for each floppy. I had one
> of those. The performance improvement was VERY marginal. I had to take
> out the solenoid that lifted the pad that loaded the media against the
> head, the timing of the head loading somehow was all wrong and allowed
> it to start writing before the pad had fully loaded.
On Sun, 13 Aug 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Theoretically it could be done with only 2
motors--one spindle motor and
one positioner. Probably not the best for performance, but doable.
ISTR that one of the "Dual" 5.25" floppy drives worked that way.
It might even have been Canon; there were two models, one with separate
positioners, and one sharing a single positioner.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
5:55 p.m.
On 8/13/23 12:48, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
Yup; I think I've got a couple of each type
somewhere; don't recall who the
other ones were, but two are definitely Canon.
Just a late imitation of the CDC 808 hard disk drive--the difference
being that the 808 could handle several tracks at once without moving
the heads. Big 6+ ft. boxes, 4 spindles. 2 5 hp spindle motors, 2
hydraulic positioners (808--807 was half that). When disk drives were
*big*. Nihil sub sole novum. I think I have a single 808 head in my
desk drawer, somewhere.
https://ia800809.us.archive.org/30/items/TNM_Control_Data_807-808_Disk_File…
--Chuck
14 Aug
14 Aug
9:07 a.m.
On Aug 13, 2023, at 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 8/13/23 12:48, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
That drive was the fastest transferring disk, by a large margin, for quite a while.
Didn't Cray use multiple bits in parallel disk drives in the Cray-1?
paul
Yup; I think I've got a couple of each type
somewhere; don't recall who the
other ones were, but two are definitely Canon.
Just a late imitation of the CDC 808 hard disk drive--the difference
being that the 808 could handle several tracks at once without moving
the heads. Big 6+ ft. boxes, 4 spindles. 2 5 hp spindle motors, 2
hydraulic positioners (808--807 was half that). When disk drives were
*big*. Nihil sub sole novum. I think I have a single 808 head in my
desk drawer, somewhere.
https://ia800809.us.archive.org/30/items/TNM_Control_Data_807-808_Disk_File…
12:42 p.m.
On 8/14/23 06:07, Paul Koning wrote:
That drive was the fastest transferring disk, by a large margin, for quite a while.
Didn't Cray use multiple bits in parallel disk drives in the Cray-1?
I recall that the first time I heard the term "RAID", it was from one
of
my friends from Cray. I thought it was pretty innovative.
The 808 did have a non-production follow-on; the 821. A bunch of them
were used in a Special Systems bid--they were essentially
double-capacity (and perhaps double-speed, I don't recall) 808s. They
had a terrible problem with the controller firmware, IIRC. My boss,
Mike Miller was responsible for CDC being the sole qualifier on a
benchmark that netted something like $180M in the early 1970s. Mike's
contribution was noticing that one of the 821s had gone offline during
the final minutes of the benchmark and doing his best Usain Bolt
imitation and punching the "ON LINE" button on the offending drive. We
qualified by a margin of seconds.
The 821s stayed around for a couple of months, but eventually were
scrapped and replaced by lots of 844 drives. The customer liked the
substitution, since the 821 did not have removable media. To the best
of my knowledge, we had the only 821s in existence. They, as far as I
know, never got to regular production, so product catalogs of the time
(~~1970) probably do not mention them.
--Chuck
12:52 p.m.
On Aug 14, 2023, at 12:42 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist(a)sydex.com> wrote:
On 8/14/23 06:07, Paul Koning wrote:
It's been a while, but I think that RAID originated in academia, though Cray may well
have been one of the earlier commercial users.
What I was referring to wasn't RAID but rather single drives with parallel (multiple
tracks concurrently) transfer, just like the 807/808. Does that ring any bells?
paul
That drive was the fastest transferring disk, by a large margin, for quite a while.
Didn't Cray use multiple bits in parallel disk drives in the Cray-1?
I recall that the first time I heard the term "RAID", it was from one
of
my friends from Cray. I thought it was pretty innovative. 
1:48 p.m.
On Aug 14, 2023, at 11:52 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
This is probably one of the earlier papers on RAID that came from Academia from the group
that invented it.
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1987/5853.html
"Increasing performance of CPUs and memories will be squandered if not matched by a
similar performance increase in I/O. While the capacity of Single Large Expensive Disk
(SLED) has grown rapidly, the performance improvement of SLED has been modest. Redundant
Arrays of Inexpensive Disks (RAID), based on the magnetic disk technology developed for
personal computers, offers an attractive alternative to SLED, promising improvements of an
order of magnitude in performance, reliability, power consumption, and scalability.
This paper introduces five levels of RAIDs, giving their relative cost/performance, and
compares RAIDs to an IBM 3380 and a Fugitsu[sic] Super Eagle."
On Aug 14, 2023, at 12:42 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist(a)sydex.com> wrote:
On 8/14/23 06:07, Paul Koning wrote:
It's been a while, but I think that RAID originated in academia, though Cray may well
have been one of the earlier commercial users.
That drive was the fastest transferring disk, by a large margin, for quite a while.
Didn't Cray use multiple bits in parallel disk drives in the Cray-1?
I recall that the first time I heard the term "RAID", it was from one
of
my friends from Cray. I thought it was pretty innovative.
What I was referring to wasn't RAID but rather
single drives with parallel (multiple tracks concurrently) transfer, just like the
807/808. Does that ring any bells?
This sounds like it’s similar to, but not the same as fixed-head disk, or head-per-track
disks. DEC had several models of relatively low capacity in the 1970s positioned as
swapping devices with capacities from 128kB to 2048kB.
Or were you thinking of something more recent, like this:
https://techmonitor.ai/technology/designs_disk_arrays_with_ncr_parallel_dis…
1:54 p.m.
On Aug 14, 2023, at 1:48 PM, Milo Velimirović
<milovelimirovic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
That fits what I was thinking about.
On Aug 14, 2023, at 11:52 AM, Paul Koning via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
This is probably one of the earlier papers on RAID that came from Academia from the group
that invented it.
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1987/5853.htmlA Case for Redundant Arrays of
Inexpensive Disks (RAID) | EECS at UC Berkeley
eecs.berkeley.edu
<touch-icon.png>
"Increasing performance of CPUs and memories will be squandered if not matched by a
similar performance increase in I/O. While the capacity of Single Large Expensive Disk
(SLED) has grown rapidly, the performance improvement of SLED has been modest. Redundant
Arrays of Inexpensive Disks (RAID), based on the magnetic disk technology developed for
personal computers, offers an attractive alternative to SLED, promising improvements of an
order of magnitude in performance, reliability, power consumption, and scalability.
This paper introduces five levels of RAIDs, giving their relative cost/performance, and
compares RAIDs to an IBM 3380 and a Fugitsu[sic] Super Eagle. On Aug 14, 2023, at 12:42 PM, Chuck Guzis
<cclist(a)sydex.com> wrote:
On 8/14/23 06:07, Paul Koning wrote:
It's been a while, but I think that RAID originated in academia, though Cray may well
have been one of the earlier commercial users. >
https://ia800809.us.archive.org/30/items/TNM_Control_Data_807-808_Disk_File…
That drive was the fastest transferring disk, by a large margin, for quite a while.
Didn't Cray use multiple bits in parallel disk drives in the Cray-1?
I recall that the first time I heard the term "RAID", it was from one
of
my friends from Cray. I thought it was pretty innovative. What I was
referring to wasn't RAID but rather single drives with parallel (multiple tracks
concurrently) transfer, just like the 807/808. Does that ring any bells?
This sounds like it’s similar to, but not the same as fixed-head disk, or head-per-track
disks. DEC had several models of relatively low capacity in the 1970s positioned as
swapping devices with capacities from 128kB to 2048kB. Or were you thinking of something more recent, like
this:
https://techmonitor.ai/technology/designs_disk_arrays_with_ncr_parallel_dis…
DISK ARRAYS WITH NCR, PARALLEL DISKS WITH CRAY RESEARCH
techmonitor.ai
That seems to be the one, at least at the abstract level it matches what (very
little) I remembered. Is this a Cray 1 era article?
paul
4:42 p.m.
On Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
It's been a while, but I think that RAID
originated in academia, though
Cray may well have been one of the earlier commercial users.
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1993/6306.html
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1993/CSD-93-778.pdf
My cousin (David Ungar) did the Berkeley Smalltalk (also under Paterson)
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.pdf
During his work on that, I got a chance to briefly play with a pre-release
Apple Lisa.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
6:47 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
7:56 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help
me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board
etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you're using a unix-like operating system, GCstar seems relatively
usable, and lets you define your own database fields.
De
8:36 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
In article <20230814235627.9B9F64AB65B(a)yagi.h-net.msu.edu> you write:
It's not unix specific.
<https://gitlab.com/GCstar/GCstar>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals-wiki.org>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
I'm
looking for a good inventory program to help me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location,
board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you're using a unix-like operating system, GCstar seems relatively
usable, and lets you define your own database fields.
9:22 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
What do you find lacking in the spreadsheet? Which one, BTW?
On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 7:32 PM Mike Katz via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help
me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
10:40 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On Mon, Aug 14, 2023 at 4:32 PM Mike Katz via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help
me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
I've been using Libre Office Calc (Linux) to keep track of my new computer
collection.
It has 18 sheets. The largest sheet has nearly 450 rows, and a few others
have over 300 rows; the majority are under 100 rows.
The structure of each sheets is nearly the same, with minor adjustments
depending on the item type. For example, books will have title, author,
publisher, year of publication, edition, printing, ISBN, category; hardware
will analogously have a model, manufacturer, year of manufacture, etc.
It is starting to become unwieldy, especially in terms of searching. The
search facilities in Calc are less than desirable. And it's slowing down.
And once in a while I get these very strange data integrity errors, and I
have to go repair random cells here or there (I keep regular backups so
worst case I can retrieve any missing data from backups).
I've been wanting to find a database paradigm that has no structure. I
just want a datablob that I feed stuff into and it sorts itself out using
computer magic, and then I can query it in various ways to tell me what I
have. I'm not entirely sure how this will work. I'm hoping someone else
already figured it out.
I would also appreciate any recommendations for database software.
Sellam
11:06 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I would also appreciate any recommendations for
database software.
In addition to GCstar, which is an application you run on your
workstation, there are some open source collection management tools
aimed at museums and the like. Most of the latter probably require some
server side support. A few examples are listed here:
https://www.oedb.org/ilibrarian/5-free-and-open-source-tools-for-creating-d…
De
15 Aug
15 Aug
10:01 a.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On 8/14/23 21:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
I've been using Libre Office Calc (Linux) to keep track of my new computer
collection.
I use gnumeric. When it first came out, it was a toy. Now,
it is a VERY good spreadsheet, with excellent graphing
capability, wide import and export support, and does just
about any kind of statistical or logical operations on
columns of data.
Jon
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
How many items do you need to keep track of? Is it less than 100, a
thousand?
I tried using LibreOffice Calc to keep track of what I had so I wouldn't
go and buy something I already had. Alas, you know the rest of the story.
In order to help organize things at the physical level, I use a number
of identical size boxes to keep parts in. Then I label them CPU,
Memory, Serial, etc, to organize them to that level. These boxes fit
nicely into one book case and the labels are easy to read.
I would say I have ~300 items to keep track of.
Doug
On 8/14/2023 6:47 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help
me keep track of all
of my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
11:24 a.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
An XML DTD for computer inventory might be an interesting and useful tool
to attempt for injecting and querying parts from a database. The actual
table structure should be easy enough. The key is to streamline to use only
fields that are shared by all items. I would much rather create my own
than find a piece of software for it, but that's my opinion
Bill
On Tue, Aug 15, 2023, 11:06 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
How many items do you need to keep track of? Is it
less than 100, a
thousand?
I tried using LibreOffice Calc to keep track of what I had so I wouldn't
go and buy something I already had. Alas, you know the rest of the story.
In order to help organize things at the physical level, I use a number
of identical size boxes to keep parts in. Then I label them CPU,
Memory, Serial, etc, to organize them to that level. These boxes fit
nicely into one book case and the labels are easy to read.
I would say I have ~300 items to keep track of.
Doug
On 8/14/2023 6:47 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to
help me keep track of all
of my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
12:03 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
Here is a good place to start, dump this into a database table
https://www.pdp-11.nl/fieldguide.html
Bill
On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:06 AM Douglas Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
How many items do you need to keep track of? Is it
less than 100, a
thousand?
I tried using LibreOffice Calc to keep track of what I had so I wouldn't
go and buy something I already had. Alas, you know the rest of the story.
In order to help organize things at the physical level, I use a number
of identical size boxes to keep parts in. Then I label them CPU,
Memory, Serial, etc, to organize them to that level. These boxes fit
nicely into one book case and the labels are easy to read.
I would say I have ~300 items to keep track of.
Doug
On 8/14/2023 6:47 PM, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to
help me keep track of all
of my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
If you have any good ideas, please let me know.
I'm using a simple spreadsheet for now and it's not what I'm looking for.
Thank you.
11:38 a.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
------- Original Message -------
On Monday, August 14th, 2023 at 15:47, Mike Katz via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I'm looking for a good inventory program to help
me keep track of all of
my PDP-8 stuff.
I would like to keep track of physical location, board etch revision,
board modification revision, bus type, where used, etc.
I can think of a couple of options that might be what you're looking for. The first
is
Part-DB-server (https://github.com/Part-DB/Part-DB-server). It was originally meant for
managing inventories of parts but I've found that it's also good for managing my
inventory
of retrotech. All of the item features you mentioned are either first-class fields on
whatever you add to the database or can be added to an entry's Parameters tab; I
already
do this for board revision, current firmware version, and what I bought them for (X units
of foo for project Alpha, Y units of foo for project Beta, Z units of foo as spares in
case
I screw up).
The other application, which I haven't had a chance to test yet but am checking out
for
inventorying other stuff in the house is Homebox (https://github.com/hay-kot/homebox),
which is basically a home inventory application. In terms of complexity it's a
single
executable (written in Go, which means it's cross-compilable if you don't feel
like
downloading the latest pre-built release from Github) and uses a built-in SQLite
database.
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
12:19 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I can think of a couple of options that might be what
you're looking
for. The first is
Part-DB-server (https://github.com/Part-DB/Part-DB-server). It was
originally meant for
managing inventories of parts but I've found that it's also good for
managing my inventory
of retrotech.
This sounds like something I have been looking for and was actually thinking of learning
SQL so I could implement myself. But if someone has already done the heavy lifting... One
question: how complex are the web pages it generates? That is can older browsers, or even
TEXT based e.g. Lynx, browsers also view inventory and/or edit the DB? I would ideally
love a solution that I can access from both my modern systems and the vintage system I am
currently working on. TIA
-Ali
12:24 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I can provide SQL database dumps (PostgreSQL, but adaptable for other SQL
databases) for:
* ~38,000 hardware items (table "hwr"), e.g. "KA630" "MicroVAX II
CPU"(99%
DEC items)
* ~117,000 hardware item variants (table "hwrvar"), e.g. "KA630-AB"
"1MB
without floating point"
There are tables for other kinds of items, too, e.g.: "swrpro" (software),
"doc" (manuals), "swrpac" (software packages), ...
And there are the "link tables" that glue the "base tables" together,
e.g.:
"doc_hwr" (which manuals describe certain hardware items).
For the database specialists: Referential integity is strictly inforced
Finally there is a user-interface, too, built with LibreOffice Base.
Last but not least I must admit that the "DECdoc" database is VERY helpful,
but it needs some understanding of databases, and it lacks a web interface.
Let me know when you want to try ...
Ulli
Am Di., 15. Aug. 2023 um 18:19 Uhr schrieb Ali via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>gt;:
I can think of
a couple of options that might be what you're looking
for. The first is
Part-DB-server (https://github.com/Part-DB/Part-DB-server). It was
originally meant for
managing inventories of parts but I've found that it's also good for
managing my inventory
of retrotech.
This sounds like something I have been looking for and was actually
thinking of learning SQL so I could implement myself. But if someone has
already done the heavy lifting... One question: how complex are the web
pages it generates? That is can older browsers, or even TEXT based e.g.
Lynx, browsers also view inventory and/or edit the DB? I would ideally love
a solution that I can access from both my modern systems and the vintage
system I am currently working on. TIA
-Ali
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On Aug 15, 2023, at 12:24 PM, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I can provide SQL database dumps (PostgreSQL, but adaptable for other SQL
databases) for:
* ~38,000 hardware items (table "hwr"), e.g. "KA630" "MicroVAX
II CPU"(99%
DEC items)
Does it use the information in the Option/Module List documents (on Bitsavers)?
paul
16 Aug
16 Aug
1:33 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
------- Original Message -------
On Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 at 09:19, Ali via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
This sounds like something I have been looking for and
was actually thinking of
learning SQL so I could implement myself. But if someone has already done the heavy
lifting... One question: how complex are the web pages it generates? That is can older
That may be the rub. The installation and update process is... well, let's just say
it
gives me fits and I spent a non-trivial amount of time working out the procedure.
Suffice
it to say that I think quite poorly indeed of composer and yarn, and really don't
think
that there needs to be a software build process for a webapp written in PHP.
browsers, or even TEXT based e.g. Lynx, browsers also
view inventory and/or edit the DB?
I would ideally love a solution that I can access from both my modern systems and the
vintage system I am currently working on. TIA
I normally interact with PartDB-server using Chrome (on my work laptop) or Firefox (on my
personal machine). I don't have any older browsers (and I'm not sure what you
mean by
that, specifically - old-school Netscape v4.x?) so I can't speak to that. What I can
speak to, however, is text mode. Loading my install in Lynx shows a somewhat bewildering
version of the UI and the ever helpful message "Please activate Javascript to use
all
features," which I think pretty much says it all. I'm not able to do anything
meaningful
with it from Lynx, even after logging in.
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
17 Aug
17 Aug
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
That may be the rub. The installation and update
process is... well,
let's just say it
gives me fits and I spent a non-trivial amount of time working out the
procedure. Suffice
it to say that I think quite poorly indeed of composer and yarn, and
really don't think
that there needs to be a software build process for a webapp written in
PHP.
....
that. What I can
speak to, however, is text mode. Loading my install in Lynx shows a
somewhat bewildering
version of the UI and the ever helpful message "Please activate
Javascript to use all
features," which I think pretty much says it all. I'm not able to do
anything meaningful
with it from Lynx, even after logging in.
After looking at it some more and playing with the online model they have for testing my
excitement has waned. Add to this the fact that it doesn't let you produce simple
pages (a la your issues with Lynx) and I think my search continues. The idea is what I am
looking for but this particular execution doesn't do it for me. I may have to buckle
down and learn SQL after all... Or some other DB language/program that has been around
since the DOS days and is still in use today....
-Ali
2:02 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
If you’re okay using a MS product that you can find cheap, Microsoft Access is pretty
good. Lotsa tutorials and works well for small databases. Only drawback is it’s Windoze.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2023, at 08:31, Ali via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
That may be the rub. The installation and update process is... well,
let's just say it
gives me fits and I spent a non-trivial amount of time working out the
procedure. Suffice
it to say that I think quite poorly indeed of composer and yarn, and
really don't think
that there needs to be a software build process for a webapp written in
PHP.
....
that. What I can
speak to, however, is text mode. Loading my install in Lynx shows a
somewhat bewildering
version of the UI and the ever helpful message "Please activate
Javascript to use all
features," which I think pretty much says it all. I'm not able to do
anything meaningful
with it from Lynx, even after logging in.
After looking at it some more and playing with the online model they have for testing my
excitement has waned. Add to this the fact that it doesn't let you produce simple
pages (a la your issues with Lynx) and I think my search continues. The idea is what I am
looking for but this particular execution doesn't do it for me. I may have to buckle
down and learn SQL after all... Or some other DB language/program that has been around
since the DOS days and is still in use today....
-Ali
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I'm a little surprised noone mentioned Google sheets or something that's
cloud native? Probably only accessible from newer systems though but I've
debated it since it would be instantly accessible from phone also.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:02 PM Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
If you’re okay using a MS product that you can find
cheap, Microsoft
Access is pretty good. Lotsa tutorials and works well for small databases.
Only drawback is it’s Windoze.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2023, at 08:31, Ali via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
have for testing my excitement has waned. Add to this the fact that it
doesn't let you produce simple pages (a la your issues with Lynx) and I
think my search continues. The idea is what I am looking for but this
particular execution doesn't do it for me. I may have to buckle down and
learn SQL after all... Or some other DB language/program that has been
around since the DOS days and is still in use today....
That may be the rub. The installation and update process is... well,
let's just say it
gives me fits and I spent a non-trivial amount of time working out the
procedure. Suffice
it to say that I think quite poorly indeed of composer and yarn, and
really don't think
that there needs to be a software build process for a webapp written in
PHP.
....
that. What I can
speak to, however, is text mode. Loading my install in Lynx shows a
somewhat bewildering
version of the UI and the ever helpful message "Please activate
Javascript to use all
features," which I think pretty much says it all. I'm not able to do
anything meaningful
with it from Lynx, even after logging in.
After looking at it some more and playing with the online model they
-Ali
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
Is Sheets free or do you have to have a paid google account? I just used it at work (paid
account) and wondered if a normal consumer could get it for free.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2023, at 11:14, John Herron <barythrin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I'm a little surprised noone mentioned Google sheets or something that's cloud
native? Probably only accessible from newer systems though but I've debated it since
it would be instantly accessible from phone also.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:02 PM Wayne S via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
If you’re okay using a MS product that you can find cheap, Microsoft Access is pretty
good. Lotsa tutorials and works well for small databases. Only drawback is it’s Windoze.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 17, 2023, at 08:31, Ali via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
That may be the rub. The installation and update process is... well,
let's just say it
gives me fits and I spent a non-trivial amount of time working out the
procedure. Suffice
it to say that I think quite poorly indeed of composer and yarn, and
really don't think
that there needs to be a software build process for a webapp written in
PHP.
....
that. What I can
speak to, however, is text mode. Loading my install in Lynx shows a
somewhat bewildering
version of the UI and the ever helpful message "Please activate
Javascript to use all
features," which I think pretty much says it all. I'm not able to do
anything meaningful
with it from Lynx, even after logging in.
After looking at it some more and playing with the online model they have for testing my
excitement has waned. Add to this the fact that it doesn't let you produce simple
pages (a la your issues with Lynx) and I think my search continues. The idea is what I am
looking for but this particular execution doesn't do it for me. I may have to buckle
down and learn SQL after all... Or some other DB language/program that has been around
since the DOS days and is still in use today....
-Ali
2:43 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
I'm a little surprised noone mentioned Google
sheets or something
that's cloud native? Probably only accessible from newer systems though
but I've debated it since it would be instantly accessible from phone
also.
Sheets is a spreadsheet program, right? Spreadsheets, while nice for keeping inventory,
aren't great for searching and organizing. For parts and inventory you really need a
DB so you can get a list of all of your EISA cards, or all of your 8-bit ISA NICs, etc.
One of the best programs (and by far the easiest) that I ever used was File Maker Pro. It
had a WYSIWIG design paradigm so you would lay out your form/input sheet/whatever using
whatever object you needed - say a drop down box. You would then use the same design to
input data and to search.
The benefit of setting up a SQL DB is that it can run on a modern server but can have a
very simple text interface for searches and editing delivered through a client or plain
text web site (running on the same server). As long as you are not getting fancy with your
"output" page even Lynx can be used to search and edit the DB.
4:29 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On 8/17/2023 2:14 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
I'm a little surprised noone mentioned Google
sheets or something that's
cloud native? Probably only accessible from newer systems though but I've
debated it since it would be instantly accessible from phone also.
Why would you give all your data to Google?
bill
18 Aug
18 Aug
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 17th, 2023 at 13:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 8/17/2023 2:14 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
Why would you give all your data to Google?
They pretty much have it all anyway. Even if you use /robots.txt to block
them, they still spider and index pages, they just don't show any salient
bits that reflect the user's search query (which probably drops the search
rank to some degree as well).
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
3:35 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On Aug 18, 2023, at 12:48 PM, The Doctor via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 17th, 2023 at 13:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really? It would be interesting to have evidence supporting that, because if so, they
could be subjected to pain for violating an explicit order not to do so.
paul
On 8/17/2023 2:14 PM, John Herron via cctalk
wrote:
Why would you give all your data to Google?
They pretty much have it all anyway. Even if you use /robots.txt to block
them, they still spider and index pages,
4:38 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:35 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
block
Not to mention that that could well be a criminal act since it would
constitute unauthorized access of a computer system.
If anyone has actual evidence of this happening now then please show it to
me, and I'll take the necessary legal steps to bring Larry and Sergey to
justice.
Sellam
On Aug 18, 2023, at 12:48 PM, The Doctor via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 17th, 2023 at 13:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 8/17/2023 2:14 PM, John Herron via cctalk
wrote:
Why would you give all your data to Google?
They pretty much have it all anyway. Even if you use /robots.txt to
them, they still spider and index pages,
Really? It would be interesting to have evidence supporting that, because
if so, they could be subjected to pain for violating an explicit order not
to do so.
5:06 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
Off the original subject but here’s Google’s description of robots.txt and how Google can
show your page in results.
https://developers.google.com/search/docs/crawling-indexing/robots/intro
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2023, at 13:39, Sellam Abraham via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Fri, Aug 18, 2023 at 12:35 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Aug 18, 2023, at 12:48 PM, The Doctor via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
------- Original Message -------
On Thursday, August 17th, 2023 at 13:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 8/17/2023 2:14 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
Why would you give all your data to Google?
They pretty much have it all anyway. Even if you use /robots.txt to
block
them, they still spider and index pages,
Really? It would be interesting to have evidence supporting that, because
if so, they could be subjected to pain for violating an explicit order not
to do so.
Not to mention that that could well be a criminal act since it would
constitute unauthorized access of a computer system.
If anyone has actual evidence of this happening now then please show it to
me, and I'll take the necessary legal steps to bring Larry and Sergey to
justice.
Sellam
19 Aug
19 Aug
5:37 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, August 18th, 2023 at 13:38, Sellam Abraham <sellam.ismail(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
Not to mention that that could well be a criminal act
since it would constitute unauthorized
access of a computer system.
Maybe. Possibly. I'm not a lawyer, I just know what I learned for my day job. That
said, 18 USC 1030 can be argued any number of ways. There is the argument that,
if you put a web server online and have it serving a website, and you don't make any
particular attempt to protect it (e.g., login page, HTTP basic auth), it's open
season.
You put it up for people (and software) to browse, so it's perfectly reasonable for
people
and software to browse it.
If anyone has actual evidence of this happening now
then please show it to me, and I'll take
the necessary legal steps to bring Larry and Sergey to justice.
There is no law that says that your web crawler has to respect robots.txt. Which is
to say, there is no law that says that your web crawler /has/ to comply with a given
RFC or standard.
Well outside of my expertise, Cornell has at least one paper that talks about the law
as it pertains to search engines:
https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2681&co…
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems like it's salient.
Additionally, there's the whole "Google is a multi-billion dollar megacorp"
angle,
so any kind of court-related pushback is just not going anywhere. Hence,
the development of firewall rules.
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
5:21 p.m.
New subject: Good Inventory Program for keeping track of my DEC boards, parts, computers, etc?
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, August 18th, 2023 at 12:35, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really? It would be interesting to have evidence
supporting that, because if so, they
could be subjected to pain for violating an explicit order not to do so.
There are some of us elsewhere on the Net (in Fedi, if you're around) who, for
various
reasons are pushing back against the big G and Bing due to the generally lousy state of
search these days, and so dropped their crawlers into robots.txt (per those search
engines' documented entries for said file) to tell their crawlers to go away. It was
subsequently discovered that their crawlers (Google's for sure, Bing's less so)
spidered
and indexed new stuff on those sites anyway. Said new stuff still comes up in search
results, just without text summaries. So, we are now looking into iptables and pf rules
for blocking their crawlers.
That's the extent of what I know right now, because my day job hasn't afforded me
as
much continuous time to devote to the discourse.
The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
14 Aug
14 Aug
8:49 p.m.
On 8/14/23 15:42, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Mon, 14 Aug 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
WOW! Dave Ungar is a good friend of mine, I knew him from
Washington University (where I still work.)
Jon
It's been a while, but I think that RAID
originated in
academia, though Cray may well have been one of the
earlier commercial users.
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1993/6306.html
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1993/CSD-93-778.pdf
My cousin (David Ungar) did the Berkeley Smalltalk (also
under Paterson)
https://www2.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1986/CSD-86-287.pdf
During his work on that, I got a chance to briefly play
with a pre-release Apple Lisa. 
13 Aug
13 Aug
3:31 p.m.
Theoretically it could be done with only 2 motors--one
spindle motor and
one positioner. Probably not the best for performance, but doable.
--Chuck
That is exactly what they did. There is only one stepper motor that
drives both heads. And one drive motor that drives both spindles.
Simple, elegant, works. It would throw any software which expects the
heads to not move between access (because if you read drive 0 track 20,
then drive 1 track 40 drive 0 will NOT be at 20 but 40)
My big question though is what drive numbers are the floppies? Are they
1 and 2? Is the hard drive 4?
CZ
12:26 p.m.
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023, 10:20 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2023-08-13 12:18, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
The DEC Rainbow did that... insert rx50 disclaimer... I did it with 2
teac
True.. but if you put a pair of teac fd55f drives, suitably jumpered, they
both came on... and could do double sided media...
Though in the dual setup mode, only one of the rx50s would spin up... so
maybe not as true for that reason.
Warner
--
On Sun, Aug 13, 2023, 10:11 AM Chuck Guzis via
cctalk<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On 8/13/23 08:39, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
>
>> You've amplified my point, Fred! When I saw the abomination of
>> cross-over selects in the cables in the IBM PC, I knew the need for
>> Field Service Engineers was coming to an end!
>>
>> I don't believe anything on Wikipedia anymore. When I saw them say
that
>> there is no such thing as a legal
definition for a pint of beer in
>> Canada, I got an actual legal definition from the Federal Government,
>> created an account on wikipedia, and put in the correct legal
definition
with a reference to the law. (It's 568.26 ml btw -
make sure you get
that last .26ml :-) )
I week later it had been changed back to the previous text, and I could
not get in to correct it!
You should see the "interesting" cabling for getting three drives on a
PC controller, using only one cable. Several ISA SCSI and ESDI
controllers could accommodate this on their floppy section..
At least one DTC controller allowed for running 4 drives the way Al
Shugart intended--common motor, different drive selects.
drives that both spun on any access
and some early NEC computer I saw at computer land iirc... or maybe the
latter just kept the drives spinning
Warner
--Chuck
>
>
The DEC Rainbow RX50s only have one motor :-)
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Skype: TILBURY2591
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51 comments
25 participants
participants (25)
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Ali -
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Bill Gunshannon -
Chris Zach -
Chuck Guzis -
Dennis Boone -
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Fred Cisin -
Hans-Ulrich Hölscher -
John Herron -
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Milo Velimirović -
Nigel Johnson -
Nigel Johnson Ham -
Paul Koning -
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Richard -
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The Doctor -
Tony Duell -
Warner Losh -
Wayne S