28 Feb
2026
28 Feb
'26
11:34 p.m.
So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation
issues - you don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general
thought is that CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed
using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had
teletypes and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
1 Mar
1 Mar
1:24 a.m.
On 2026-03-01 12:34 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it
occurred to me that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation
issues - you don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general
thought is that CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed
using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had
teletypes and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
It was only the small guys like DEC that had TTY's.
The UK seemed to love 5 hole paper tape.
IBM was cards until the 1980's, like a on vintage IBM 1130.
7 track mag tape was standard until the IBM 360 came out.
The high cost of core memory limited operating systems to be simple
batch systems until the late 60's.Then it was big money for time sharing.
The *Cloud* at 10 cps, never worked that well.
A lot of the stuff is somebody's intellectual property, thus it is lost
to the world for many reasons.
Ben.
2:14 a.m.
On 01/03/2026 09:24, ben via cctalk wrote:
I think in the UK there was a lot of CREED 5-hole paper-tape equipment.,
I think , possibly because of Bletchley.
In Manchester the original "Baby" computer was a 32-bit machine. They
recruited Alan Turing to assist with upgrading this machines from its
original seven op-codes to the more usable instruction set of the
Manchester Mark-1. He brought some 5-level devices with him from
Bletchley and they altered the machine to have a 40-bit word, so eight
5-bit characters. When Ferranti were contracted by the UK government to
build a production version , the Ferranti Mark-1, this machine was in
software terms identical, so was supplied with 5-level creed equipment.
This continued with Ferranti's successor machines. The next machine, the
Pegasus was interesting as it had a high-speed optical tape reader for
input and a 300cps punch for output. The output from the punch was
dumped into a large bin under the operators desk, from which it was fed
into a rather slower standard 6cps tape reader for printing on a Creed
5-level printer..
On 2026-03-01 12:34 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk
wrote:
> So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me
> that
> the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
> technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation
> issues - you don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
>
> The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so -
> general
> thought is that CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed
> using punch cards.
>
Yes but that doesn't mean the whole OS ever existed on cards at a single
moment in time.
> So - are there any archives or collections of
these original punch
> cards?
> Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
> code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
>
It was written to tape as you went along.
> Anyway, apologies - it was just something that
only recently occurred to
> me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
> punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do
> any of
> those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a
> photo
> of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
> suppose.
>
Like I say, generally you had a bootable tape. I did
Or is this
wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had
teletypes and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
It was only the small guys like DEC that had TTY's.
The UK seemed to love 5 hole paper tape.
IBM was cards until the 1980's, like a on vintage IBM 1130.
7 track mag tape was standard until the IBM 360 came out.
The high cost of core memory limited operating systems
to be simple
batch systems until the late 60's.Then it was big money for time sharing.
The *Cloud* at 10 cps, never worked that well.
A lot of the stuff is somebody's intellectual property, thus it is
lost to the world for many reasons.
Ben.
Dave
11:12 a.m.
Well, emulators for CTSS are out there, so someone got that source code
somehow. Maybe that's a place to start, digging into how that code was
obtained (is it even in ASCII?)
.
In the runtime emulation of CTSS I see, it notes a KSR-37 being used (in
the operation of the OS, not for its development). So that's late 60's era.
But kind of mentally running the origin of CTSS back to 1961 - maybe there
were Model 28 TTY's available, or the IBM 709 series had their own terminal
(which in either case would be pre-ASCII).
Also reading early usage of ASR-33, it seems it was referred to just as
"Model 33" early on - I see in 1964 Datamation it being referred to as
that. But yes, still relatively expensive for the time. IBM's teletype
cost I'd guess is essentially absorbed into the overall cost of the system,
not really a line item separate purchase.
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at some point existed in the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:24 AM ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2026-03-01 12:34 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk
wrote:
So studying about 1960s operating systems
recently, it occurred to me
that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing"
until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation
issues - you don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general
thought is that CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed
using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a
photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch
cards like any other, I
suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had
teletypes and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
It was only the small guys like DEC that had TTY's.
The UK seemed to love 5 hole paper tape.
IBM was cards until the 1980's, like a on vintage IBM 1130.
7 track mag tape was standard until the IBM 360 came out.
The high cost of core memory limited operating systems to be simple
batch systems until the late 60's.Then it was big money for time sharing.
The *Cloud* at 10 cps, never worked that well.
A lot of the stuff is somebody's intellectual property, thus it is lost
to the world for many reasons.
Ben.
11:32 a.m.
On 2026-03-01 12:12 p.m., Steve Lewis wrote:
Well, emulators for CTSS are out there, so someone got
that source code
somehow. Maybe that's a place to start, digging into how that code was
obtained (is it even in ASCII?)
.
In the runtime emulation of CTSS I see, it notes a KSR-37 being used (in
the operation of the OS, not for its development). So that's late 60's era.
But kind of mentally running the origin of CTSS back to 1961 - maybe
there were Model 28 TTY's available, or the IBM 709 series had their own
terminal (which in either case would be pre-ASCII).
Also reading early usage of ASR-33, it seems it was referred to just as
"Model 33" early on - I see in 1964 Datamation it being referred to as
that. But yes, still relatively expensive for the time. IBM's teletype
cost I'd guess is essentially absorbed into the overall cost of the
system, not really a line item separate purchase.
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at some point existed in the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
-Steve
Punched cards, may have been on mag tape, from a Satellite computer;Thus
the cards may have been kept on a different system.
Ben.
11:32 a.m.
And to be clear, I am not saying, OS's were *never* stored on
punchcards. I am sure it made sense sometimes. I was thinking that
today, most punchcards you come upon will not have an OS on them.
Most often punchcards were used for data or programs
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 2:12 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, emulators for CTSS are out there, so someone got that source code
somehow. Maybe that's a place to start, digging into how that code was
obtained (is it even in ASCII?)
.
In the runtime emulation of CTSS I see, it notes a KSR-37 being used (in
the operation of the OS, not for its development). So that's late 60's era.
But kind of mentally running the origin of CTSS back to 1961 - maybe there
were Model 28 TTY's available, or the IBM 709 series had their own terminal
(which in either case would be pre-ASCII).
Also reading early usage of ASR-33, it seems it was referred to just as
"Model 33" early on - I see in 1964 Datamation it being referred to as
that. But yes, still relatively expensive for the time. IBM's teletype
cost I'd guess is essentially absorbed into the overall cost of the system,
not really a line item separate purchase.
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at some point existed in the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:24 AM ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 2026-03-01 12:34 a.m., Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> > So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me
> that
> > the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes,
they
> > technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation
> > issues - you don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
> >
> > The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general
> > thought is that CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed
> > using punch cards.
> >
> > So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
> > Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
> > code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
> >
> > Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
> > me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
> > punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
> > those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a
> photo
> > of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
> > suppose.
> >
> > Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had
> > teletypes and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
> >
> > -Steve
>
> It was only the small guys like DEC that had TTY's.
> The UK seemed to love 5 hole paper tape.
> IBM was cards until the 1980's, like a on vintage IBM 1130.
> 7 track mag tape was standard until the IBM 360 came out.
>
> The high cost of core memory limited operating systems to be simple
> batch systems until the late 60's.Then it was big money for time sharing.
> The *Cloud* at 10 cps, never worked that well.
> A lot of the stuff is somebody's intellectual property, thus it is lost
> to the world for many reasons.
> Ben.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
12:04 p.m.
On 2026-03-01 12:32 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
And to be clear, I am not saying, OS's were
*never* stored on
punchcards. I am sure it made sense sometimes. I was thinking that
today, most punchcards you come upon will not have an OS on them.
Most often punchcards were used for data or programs
Important cards like the bootstrap, may have been kept in a safe place.
I remember reading that the OS for the IBM-1130 was cross-assembled from
a IBM-360.Who would keep the source in that case?
A assembler, FORTRAN compiler, and batch monitor was often the only
programs a OS had.
Classic Operating Systems: From Batch Processing to Distributed Systems,
by Brinch Hansen may be online still.
Ben.
2:23 p.m.
On 3/1/2026 2:55 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:12 -0600, Steve Lewis via
cctalk wrote:
I think it most likely that the master for the 1410/7010 source was on
mag tape(s), and there was some kind of card/tape oriented edit program
for changes. PR-155 proper was distributed to customers on mag tape (as
were the compilers and utilities and optional source materials), and the
OS itself was assembled/generated based on a set of macros. (I'd have
to double-check to see if there were also relocatable pre-assembled
modules involved - I think that would be likely).
Keeping such things only on cards would have been very risky, and also
very hard to deal with when implementing any kind of structured change
control, which I cannot imagine not being in place for either IBSYS or
PR-155. (Both systems also supported disk drives, though perhaps IBM
would not necessarily have used those to hold the master copy of the
source for the operating systems, compilers and utilities.)
As with IBM, I know for certain that Univac had an editor for file
"elements" - so again, it is extremely unlikely that the masters were on
card - more likely drum (FastRAND) backed up to mag tape.
Having not used the CDC operating systems, I can't speak knowledgeably
to them, but still, I can't imagine the master being on actual cards.
Way too hard to manage changes.
A story I heard about the B5500 ALGOL compiler (which evolved from the
B5000 compiler) was that its source was on mag tape, which they lost,
and had to start over - but that story might be apocryphal - they
certainly would have at least had listings.
I also saw a reference in this thread to the B8500. One of my
professors told a tale about that. UW (the real one in Wisconsin, not
the one in Washington. ;) ) had a CDC 3600 which was replaced by a
Univac 1108. There was also a bid which Burroughs won proposing the yet
to be delivered B8500. They were late and later, and provided UW with a
B5500 (which I used for my CS 302 course in XALGOL) to use in the
meantime. UW then requested a demo to ensure Burroughs was making good
progress, presumably in Detroit. They demonstrated what was ostensibly
a B8500 which performed sorta OK - but then the UW people there noticed
some odd cables. Turned out that Burroughs was actually running the
demo on a multi-processor pair of B6500 machines. The contract got
cancelled, Burroughs loaned UW a second B5500 for a while, and UW moved
from the 1108 to a Univac 1110 instead.
JRJ
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at
some point existed in
the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
IBSYS on
7090/94. PR-155 on IBM 1410/7010
3:57 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 16:23 -0600, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
Keeping such things only on cards would have been very
risky, and
also
very hard to deal with when implementing any kind of structured
change
control, which I cannot imagine not being in place for either IBSYS
or
PR-155.
I understand (perhaps not accurately) that IBM had a "master card
file," maybe in Poughkeepsie.
Did it actually exist?
What was in it?
4:19 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 16:23 -0600, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
I know for certain that Univac had an editor for file
"elements" - so again, it is extremely unlikely that the masters were
on
card - more likely drum (FastRAND) backed up to mag tape.
Univac's "element" editor was pretty lame, but Maryland's editor (and
assembler) were much better. I think Derek Zave had a hand in both. He
also wrote an 1108 single-instruction (not statistical) profiler. It
looked at each instruction. If it wasn't a jump or test it was plunked
down inline and executed. Jumps and tests were analyzed to group
sequences into basic blocks. Tables of instruction timings allowed
accurate profiling. The run time was about twenty times slower. Then
about the same amount of time was necessary to sort and print the
report from tape. But it was worth it because the result was
magnificent, and always a profound surprise. Your program was never
spending much of its time where you thought it would. He also wrote
nice papers about polyphase merging on any number of read-reverse
tapes.
Univac built one much faster profiling system by coupling two 1108s
together. One generated an interrupt in the other every time a jump
instruction was executed.
Yeah, EXEC 8 was definitely on tape, not cards, but it was updated from
FastRand elements. An entire "program file" containing elements was
stored on tape in "G" format — one FastRand track of 1792 wiords per
tape block.
The system guy for our 7094/7044 Direct Couple kept the 1/2" DCOS
listing in his briefcase. EXEC 8 listing filled a 3,000-page box. Tom
said DCOS didn't mean "Direct Couple Operating System." It meant
"Damned Confusing Obfuscating System."
BTW Tom had been on the Triumph team that set the motorcycle land speed
record. They tried new fuels, plugs, magneto, cams, …. but couldn't
break the old record using their T-110 40-inch motor. They concluded
they needed two carburetors — but they wouldn't fit because the ports
are straight back. Tom claimed he was the one who wrote a letter to the
factory to ask for new heads with intake ports angled 15° outward. They
put two carbs on it, creating the "T-120 Bonneville" and broke the
record. He also claimed the longest ambulance ride in history — Elko to
Los Angeles. He had burn scars up and down both arms (at least), but
not on his face.
4:26 p.m.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 5:23 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Having not used the CDC operating systems, I can't speak knowledgeably to them, but
still, I can't imagine the master being on actual cards. Way too hard to manage
changes.
I don't know about the earliest days. But when I worked with CDC NOS around 1975,
everything (OS and applications) was handled by one of two rather similar source control
systems, MODIFY and UPDATE. These would maintain a "program library" file,
consisting of "decks" (individual programs), and you would feed them a control
deck identifying which deck(s) you wanted to extract and/or change. For example, to
assemble a program you'd run MODIFY to obtain a text file containing the deck of that
program, or possibly several decks if the program was handled that way. That file would
then be fed into the assembler.
That intermediate file had a compression scheme where spaces were run-length encoded,
similar to the IBM approach that was just mentioned. At CERL, there was support for text
files encoded that way, which were known as "squoze" files. Over time that
faded away, I'm not quite sure why.
UPDATE was basically the same. I never understood why there were two; perhaps a legacy of
the two main OS streams: MACE/KRONOS/NOS and SCOPE/NOS-BE. The only UPDATE PL I ever ran
into was for the 7054 (RP04-like) disk controller firmware.
paul
3 p.m.
On 01/03/2026 20:55, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:12 -0600, Steve Lewis via
cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that there never was a copy of IBSYS source on cards, well
except for the very first version. Reading source cards is slow, you
want it on tape.
IBSYS included a Symbolic Update Program which you could use to "edit"
source tapes in a similar way to which you use DIFF and PATCH on a
modern system.
https://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/7090/C28-6386-1_symbUpdPgm_Jan65.pdf
"Update may be used to modify any tape written in BCD mode, provided
columns 73-80 of card images are available for serialisation"
&
"In addition, it can be used to maintain subsystems of the IBSYS
Operating System and the operating system itself"
.. so even from the very early days IBSYS source was stored on tape.
.. and as for "boot loader" I don't know how a 7090 worked but S/360
came with loadable tapes. What other folks call "booting" IBM refer to
as "Initial Program Load" (IPL).
On S/360 there are three dials that set the device address you are going
to load, and an IPL button that executes a special IO command that does
a read and starts executing what was read.
Dave
p.s. read the 7090 ops guide, there are two LOAD buttons one for card
and one for tape....
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at
some point existed in
the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
IBSYS on
7090/94. PR-155 on IBM 1410/7010
2 Mar
2 Mar
6:49 a.m.
BOS and BPS for the 360 were on punch cards.
the Pitney bowes, later Raytheon, 440 had an operating system on paper
tape. they had a large spool with a biderectional high speed tape drive.
Type in a command on the console, it would find the needed program, e.g.
fortran compiler, load it. compile the program using the card
reader./punch, etc. after every job, the paper tape would reload the
operating system.
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
Virus-free.www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 2:55 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:12 -0600, Steve Lewis via
cctalk wrote:
--
--Carey
I still think it's a good bet that MULTICS at
some point existed in
the
form of punch cards. (as also SCOPE, AOSP, and Atlas Supervisor).
IBSYS on 7090/94. PR-155 on IBM 1410/7010
7:12 a.m.
On Mar 2, 2026, at 9:49 AM, Carey Schug via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
BOS and BPS for the 360 were on punch cards.
That would make sense, since those were basic OS for machines with no tape or disk.
the Pitney bowes, later Raytheon, 440 had an operating
system on paper
tape. they had a large spool with a biderectional high speed tape drive.
That's wild, I never heard of a bidirectional paper tape reader.
There is something vaguely like that in the original EL-X1 ALGOL compiler. Since the
machine (originally) only had 4 kW of memory, it needed several passes. The intermediate
object file tape would have the code on it, then a table of library symbol references at
the end because only at that time would the list of needed functions be known. The loader
needed to load those functions to resolve references, so rather than make two passes over
that tape, the tape was read in reverse direction instead. It's rather strange to
look at code that interprets a tape read backwards.
paul
2:16 p.m.
CNC, when it was done from paper tape - to some point in the 1980's, used both
bi-directional PTRs and Reel to Reel PTRs. The essential function point was probably low
operator intervention cycling through one or a few (CNC) programs (G code) : at its
simplest execute then rewind . G code defines magic characters to indicate blocks,
comments and end of tape; in computing usage the EoT marks are particularly unfunny as
they can stop the transport ... (lift leg, cut track ...). The CNC controller would
exploit this functionality. The RtR transport was probably the key function point, this
model is the only twin capstan unit I am aware of - I suspect it simplified the (reverse)
take up system design.
eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253377485885 a nice unit save that the LHS tension roller is
chipped; machine a new one from Nylon 66 stock, 3D print one or take a chance ... The
price is quite tasty, but they don't travel well : not MO to UK. The pair of
centrifugal motor fans, look like mushrooms, need removed (grub screw) and packed
seperately - very easy to shear the moulding. The PT spools are yet again XFU - probably
the one thing less common than blank paper tape.
Note two capstans, fwd and rev, and two take up hubs etc. But only one optical reader and
one brake - configured for forward use. The standalone unit (including its control card)
reads in either direction, speed (cps) being 5 x motor frequency (nominally 60 Hz @ 100V).
While the unit can be controlled from the front panel switches, it also has remote control
capabilities - TTL from the CNC controller proper. My RevEng of both the reader logic and
transport board (pdf schematics) are in my Paper Tape Zoo - see
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/visualise.php.
And, I would very much like information on the remote control interface ... No manuals,
no recollections, no anecdotes, ... I have asked in CNC land.
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 02 March 2026 15:13
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Carey Schug <carey.schug(a)gmail.com>om>; Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Operating system, on punch cards?
On Mar 2, 2026, at 9:49 AM, Carey Schug via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
BOS and BPS for the 360 were on punch cards.
That would make sense, since those were basic OS for machines with no tape or disk.
the Pitney bowes, later Raytheon, 440 had an operating
system on paper
tape. they had a large spool with a biderectional high speed tape drive.
That's wild, I never heard of a bidirectional paper tape reader.
There is something vaguely like that in the original EL-X1 ALGOL compiler. Since the
machine (originally) only had 4 kW of memory, it needed several passes. The intermediate
object file tape would have the code on it, then a table of library symbol references at
the end because only at that time would the list of needed functions be known. The loader
needed to load those functions to resolve references, so rather than make two passes over
that tape, the tape was read in reverse direction instead. It's rather strange to
look at code that interprets a tape read backwards.
paul
4:01 p.m.
On 3/2/26 16:16, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
And, I would very much like information on the remote control interface ... No manuals,
no recollections, no anecdotes, ... I have asked in CNC land.
RS-323 was the standard for paper tape readers on CNC
machines. It was not a 5V logic level interface, but was
compatible with open-collector drive TTL chips.
Quite simple, 8-bit parallel with read forward, read reverse
and a handshake line.
MANY years ago I built a "BTR" (behind the reader) interface
for an Allen-Bradley CNC control.
Jon
4:42 p.m.
Jon
The interface card on most of Fanuc's PTRs is
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A20B-0007-075D_FanucPtrL… the
SN7437are 5V TTL Buffers, not OC but when did manufacturers trouble with standards.
However, that is the 8 bit parallel output, you can find a toy P to S interface with foot
pedal hold for it at
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/FanucInterFace1.zip
The controller for a RtR transport is
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A20B-0004-0280&0270_…
the CNT3 input pins are the somewhat open questions. And, while there is a little status
feedback, on CN3, there is no dedicated handshake line. Also, there are rewind, stop and
hold command lines. It is the usage of this interface, especially in the context of the
larger CNC controller (on a Fanuc Mill / Lathe) which I seek.
The best way forward is probably to interface the RtR to a "controller" and to
experiment; the controller being a convenient SoC.
From what you write, it sounds as though this interface, with the transport to manage, is
rather more complex than the necessary BTR subset.
Martin
PS Are the AB manuals readily available ? Even operations manuals are hens teeth for
Fanuc
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Elson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 03 March 2026 00:01
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Cc: Jon Elson <elson(a)pico-systems.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Operating system, on punch cards?
On 3/2/26 16:16, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
And, I would very much like information on the remote control interface ... No manuals,
no recollections, no anecdotes, ... I have asked in CNC land.
RS-323 was the standard for paper tape readers on CNC machines. It was not a 5V
logic level interface, but was compatible with open-collector drive TTL chips.
Quite simple, 8-bit parallel with read forward, read reverse and a handshake line.
MANY years ago I built a "BTR" (behind the reader) interface for an
Allen-Bradley CNC control.
Jon
1 Mar
1 Mar
12:56 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:12 -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
In the runtime emulation of CTSS I see, it notes a
KSR-37 being used
(in
the operation of the OS, not for its development). So that's late
60's era.
I used a Varian V-73 in the late 70s that had ASR-35.
5:35 a.m.
Punchcards? You want punchcards? I got punchcards. Not exactly what I think you are
looking for but a large sample. Please check out www.punchcardarchive.com
Check the Stats page for a quick summary. Beware the Album page. It takes a while to
load. After all, it has to display 25532 cards.
Not a full program but doing a search on CCROS in the Title field will show a few cards
that represent a few bits of a read only S/360 program.
Donald
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2026 11:34 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Steve Lewis <lewissa78(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Operating system, on punch cards?
So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation issues - you
don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general thought is that
CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some code was
"perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to me, that
basically all of the original operating systems originated on punch cards: CTSS,
Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had teletypes and
all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
9:11 a.m.
Typically the OS was not stored on punchcards.
b
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 11:51 AM bluewater emailtoilet.com via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Punchcards? You want punchcards? I got punchcards. Not exactly what I think you are
looking for but a large sample. Please check out www.punchcardarchive.com
Check the Stats page for a quick summary. Beware the Album page. It takes a while to
load. After all, it has to display 25532 cards.
Not a full program but doing a search on CCROS in the Title field will show a few cards
that represent a few bits of a read only S/360 program.
Donald
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2026 11:34 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Steve Lewis <lewissa78(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Operating system, on punch cards?
So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation issues - you
don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general thought is that
CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some code was
"perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to me, that
basically all of the original operating systems originated on punch cards: CTSS,
Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had teletypes
and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
12:50 p.m.
On 2026-03-01 08:35, bluewater emailtoilet.com via cctalk wrote:
Punchcards? You want punchcards? I got punchcards. Not
exactly what I think you are looking for but a large sample. Please check
outwww.punchcardarchive.com
Check the Stats page for a quick summary. Beware the Album page. It takes a while to
load. After all, it has to display 25532 cards.
Not a full program but doing a search on CCROS in the Title field will show a few cards
that represent a few bits of a read only S/360 program.
Donald
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2026 11:34 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Steve Lewis<lewissa78(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Operating system, on punch cards?
So studying about 1960s operating systems recently, it occurred to me that
the ASR-33 wasn't really "a thing" until the late 1960s. Yes, they
technically existed since 1963, but even going through 1960s Datamation issues - you
don't see a lot of ads or mention of ASR-33 until 1965.
The IBM 1050 maybe existed in 1961 for the IBM 709, but even so - general thought is that
CTSS (operating system) was largely initially developed using punch cards.
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some code was
"perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to me, that
basically all of the original operating systems originated on punch cards: CTSS,
Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I suppose.
Or is this wrong, and the top tier teams making these OS's, probably had teletypes
and all the magnetic tape they wanted?
-Steve
This thread reminds me of a situation I once found myself in.
I worked for an engineering company that also had a general data
processing dept. The engineers used a PDP-11 and the Business people
used a PDP-8.
I was designing a ham radio repeater controller, and managed to get the
local Motorola SPS rep to donate an evaluation kit, together with the
loan of the compiler. It was on 2000 punch cards of Fortran source!
Problem was, the Fortran compiler was on the PDP-11, and the card reader
was on the PDP-8
Both had removable disks and floppies, but with different sector sizes,
non-interchangeable! The only common peripheral was paper tape!
In the end, the chief engineer (also a ham) and I fed the cards into the
PDP-8, punched paper tape, fed the paper tape in real time into the
PDP-11 and saved it to disk. Because the PDP-8's punch was faster than
the PDP-11 we had to stop and start the processors to avoid overruns and
underruns!
Amazingly, the program compiled first time and we had several years use
out of it, both at work and at home when I got my own PDP-11
cheers
Nigel
--
Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
Oh what a mangled head received when first we fractals do perceive
11:47 a.m.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits like IBM. I
don't know what early DEC development looked like, but considering the rarity of card
handling equipment on DEC systems I would expect paper tape.
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape. In some cases that
involved punch equipment with custom-designed coding; for example, the Electrologica X1
had a rudimentary assembler in ROM (along with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on
5-channel paper tape, in a code slightly above straight binary machine language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard executable file loaders
used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The famous THE operating system was a paper tape
batch system, with the OS image supplied on tape (though I think at some point it was
moved to magtape for faster startup). No punched cards were seen there until the X8 was
replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even that machine had paper tape input to
support all the applications that had the input data on paper tape. My father's
precision measurement lab (part of the ME department) had instruments that punched the
measurements onto paper tape, for later processing by that central computer system. All
that was in ALGOL, by the way.
paul
12:04 p.m.
Hi All:
My comments, worth two cents or less.
The first computer I ever used was an IBM 1130 my city’s school district office at when I
was a 14-year-old high school student. This was in 1974. My exploration of the “IBM Disk
Monitor System" on the machine led to me clobbering the FORTRAN compiler on the
removable hard disk by mistake one evening. The disk had a form factor similar to the DEC
RK05.
Staff discovered the problem the next morning and had to reload the compiler from punched
cards. They told me that they restored the entire system disk (OS and FORTRAN) rather
than just the compiler. I saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they used for this. I
was mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble. Apparently the
restore took most of the day.
In this case it looks like the OS was held as backup on cards. It was a small
installation and there were no peripherals other than a card reader and the integrated
system console.
In bigger installations I agree, magtape was probably the standard media.
Postscript: don’t submit a DUP job:
// XEQ DUP
*DEFINE VOID FORTRAN
on an 1130. This does NOT give you examples of invalid FORTRAN code or errors, as my
young mind surmised, but deletes the FORTRAN compiler.
I got in trouble, but it wasn’t serious as I made an honest error, driven by curiosity.
Kevin
On Mar 1, 2026, at 11:47 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits like IBM. I
don't know what early DEC development looked like, but considering the rarity of card
handling equipment on DEC systems I would expect paper tape.
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape. In some cases that
involved punch equipment with custom-designed coding; for example, the Electrologica X1
had a rudimentary assembler in ROM (along with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on
5-channel paper tape, in a code slightly above straight binary machine language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard executable file
loaders used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The famous THE operating system was a
paper tape batch system, with the OS image supplied on tape (though I think at some point
it was moved to magtape for faster startup). No punched cards were seen there until the
X8 was replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even that machine had paper tape
input to support all the applications that had the input data on paper tape. My
father's precision measurement lab (part of the ME department) had instruments that
punched the measurements onto paper tape, for later processing by that central computer
system. All that was in ALGOL, by the way.
paul
12:13 p.m.
On 2026-03-01 1:04 p.m., Kevin McQuiggin via cctalk wrote:
Hi All:
My comments, worth two cents or less.
The first computer I ever used was an IBM 1130 my city’s school district office at when I
was a 14-year-old high school student. This was in 1974. My exploration of the “IBM Disk
Monitor System" on the machine led to me clobbering the FORTRAN compiler on the
removable hard disk by mistake one evening. The disk had a form factor similar to the DEC
RK05.
Staff discovered the problem the next morning and had to reload the compiler from punched
cards. They told me that they restored the entire system disk (OS and FORTRAN) rather
than just the compiler. I saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they used for this. I
was mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble. Apparently the
restore took most of the day.
In this case it looks like the OS was held as backup on cards. It was a small
installation and there were no peripherals other than a card reader and the integrated
system console.
If you had a second disk, you could duplicate from the original media.
The IBM-1130 was user friendly computer, in that students could access a
real machine.Ben.
1:11 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:13 -0700, ben via cctalk wrote:
The first computer I ever used was an IBM 1130 my
city’s school
district office at when I was a 14-year-old high school student.
This was in 1974.
My university phased out their 1130 and replaced it with Varian V-73.
Then they discovered that Varian didn't offer a COBOL compiler, which
they still wanted to teach. For my senior project, I wrote microcode
that convinced the V-73 it was an IBM 1130. I didn't do the I/O in
microcode (ran out of room) so two faculty members wrote V-73 code to
support it.
https://vandyke.mynetgear.com/1401/V70/
1:13 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:13 -0700, ben via cctalk wrote:
I saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they used
for this. I was
mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble.
Apparently the restore took most of the day.
It took all day because the card reader on the 1130 was REALLY slow. My
first full-time job was as a 1401 operator. The 1402 could read 600
cards per minute, five minutes for a 3,000-card tray, 25 minutes for
five of them.
1:32 p.m.
Well, to clarify - my "amazement" was more the idea of developing OS
software using paper (not as much the loading of one from paper, though
that is still a "glad I didn't have to do that" thing :).
So I'd characterize early OS development (meaning like 1956-1961) as:
developed "in memory" (e.g. CTSS is said to have been written in FAP/MAD),
then the program exported to punch card (or punched tape-- fan tape being a
bit later and fairly exclusive to the "DEC" ecosystem, as it were). Once
verified "yeah this kind of works", maybe that code quickly migrated over
to magtape (bearing it mind this was all pre-ASCII standards). But one
would need some kind of "bootloader" to then initiate it from magtape.
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:13 -0700, ben via cctalk
wrote:
I saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they
used for this. I was
mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble.
Apparently the restore took most of the day.
It took all day because the card reader on the 1130 was REALLY slow. My
first full-time job was as a 1401 operator. The 1402 could read 600
cards per minute, five minutes for a 3,000-card tray, 25 minutes for
five of them.
1:47 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 15:32 -0600, Steve Lewis wrote:
Well, to clarify - my "amazement" was more
the idea of developing OS
software using paper (not as much the loading of one from paper,
though that is still a "glad I didn't have to do that" thing :).
So I'd characterize early OS development (meaning like 1956-1961) as:
developed "in memory" (e.g. CTSS is said to have been written in
FAP/MAD),
One of my colleagues (Theodore Pavlovich) was among the last to switch
from FAP to IBMAP. My mid-70's office partner (Suzanne Levison) had
worked on MAD as an undergraduate.
then the program exported to punch card (or punched
tape-- fan tape
being a bit later and fairly exclusive to the "DEC" ecosystem, as it
were). Once verified "yeah this kind of works", maybe that code
quickly migrated over to magtape (bearing it mind this was all pre-
ASCII standards). But one would need some kind of "bootloader" to
then initiate it from magtape.
The IBM 1401 has a "tape load" key. Oddly, the 1410 didn't. One needed
to key "L%U100011R_" into location 1 and set the instruction address to
00001.
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:13 PM Van Snyder via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 13:13 -0700, ben via cctalk wrote:
> > I saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they used for this. I
> was
> > mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble.
> > Apparently the restore took most of the day.
>
> It took all day because the card reader on the 1130 was REALLY
> slow. My
> first full-time job was as a 1401 operator. The 1402 could read 600
> cards per minute, five minutes for a 3,000-card tray, 25 minutes
> for
> five of them.
4:40 p.m.
On 3/1/2026 3:47 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 15:32 -0600, Steve Lewis wrote:
The IBM 1401 has a "tape load" key. Oddly, the 1410 didn't. One needed
to key "L%U100011R_" into location 1 and set the instruction address to
00001.
As you say, the 1410 did not have a load key. The 7010 did have a
momentary load switch: left for card, right for tape. I might add that
feature to my FPGA 1410 someday. ;)
On the 1410, because a tape in load mode was necessarily in odd parity,
you would use L%B rather than L%U
Usually one used "read to end of core", so the d character would be $
rather than R
For a real 1410, the usual boot process was:
1. Clear storage
- Set the sense/bit switches to a blank character (just the C bit)
- Set the memory regen to +1
- Set the Mode switch the CE
- Press START, and enter the address 00000
- Wait a second, then press computer RESET
2. Display enough memory that you could enter the boot instruction.
This required either display up to a word mark, but with storage clear,
instead one would hit the index key on the selectric console to fudge an
end of line which accomplished the same goal.
- Set the mode switch to DISPLAY
- Enter address 00000 (or sometimes 00001 if a blank was OK in location
0, but usually 0)
- Press START, then after a second or two of bbbbbbb press the index key
on the console selectric to force a new line
- Set the mode switch to ALTER
3. Enter the instruction to boot from tape
- (Mode switch already in ALTER)
- Press START
- Enter: b<WM>L%B000011$<WM>.<WM>. [Diagnostics, PR108, etc.]
Sometimes a different character than b (blank)
- Enter: A<WM>L%B000012$<WM>N [PR-155, normal boot == A in location 0]
(For a card boot, one would enter b<WM>L%1100011$<WM>.<WM>. I don't
recall every doing a card boot on our 1410)
4. Press computer RESET (which happens to set the I Register - the
program counter - to 00001)
5. Press START
1:53 p.m.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 4:32 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, to clarify - my "amazement" was more the idea of developing OS
software using paper (not as much the loading of one from paper, though
that is still a "glad I didn't have to do that" thing :).
There's a nice description, I think in Gauthier van den Hove's thesis, of the
process used for the creation of the world's first full ALGOL 60 compiler, by Dijkstra
and Zonneveld. The two of them did this in about 6 months, which included having to
invent a number of core elements of parsing technology since they did not exist yet.
They would sit at a table, assembly language coding form in hand. One of them would
propose the next line of code, the other would agree or they would discuss it if needed,
and repeat for the next line. Those forms were then handed to punch operators to be
converted into 5-channel tape punched in the odd code that the assembler (also by
Dijkstra, part of his Ph.D. thesis work) could read.
Amazing stuff. Also amazing is that, after several years of production use, only two
wrong-code bugs were discovered, both for highly exotic cases.
So I'd characterize early OS development (meaning
like 1956-1961) as:
developed "in memory" (e.g. CTSS is said to have been written in FAP/MAD),
then the program exported to punch card (or punched tape-- fan tape being a
bit later and fairly exclusive to the "DEC" ecosystem, as it were). Once
verified "yeah this kind of works", maybe that code quickly migrated over
to magtape (bearing it mind this was all pre-ASCII standards). But one
would need some kind of "bootloader" to then initiate it from magtape.
Early PDP-11 software development was done on PDP-10 timesharing systems, including
running it in simulation (MIMIC -- a precursor of SIMH). The resulting bits would then go
to paper tape, I'm pretty sure, to be loaded into the target machine. That might in
fact be a paper tape only system, or if it was RSTS it would have disks but the initial OS
load would be paper tape.
Not all that long after, DECtape would typically be the OS distribution medium. I'm
not sure if those were created on PDP-10 systems; there was FILEX to do that, but I
don't know when that appeared.
By the time RSTS/E V5B arrived, development was on RSTS itself. I don't know about
V4A; system build (SYSGEN) used DOS, but it's hard to imagine people doing software
development on that sorry excuse for an operating system.
paul
2:09 p.m.
Well, I just learned today about the 1959 IBM term "squozed" (maybe some
comical combination of squeezed and frozen).
Apparently it was some kind of "compression" form of the punch card content
(maybe something more like "raw machine code" than source code? but in any
case, the intent was to help load/init the system faster) The term may
have been slightly before 1959, but I'm seeing it in some IBM catalogs of
1959.
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:53 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
On Mar 1, 2026, at 4:32 PM, Steve Lewis via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, to clarify - my "amazement" was more the idea of developing OS
software using paper (not as much the loading of one from paper, though
that is still a "glad I didn't have to do that" thing :).
There's a nice description, I think in Gauthier van den Hove's thesis, of
the process used for the creation of the world's first full ALGOL 60
compiler, by Dijkstra and Zonneveld. The two of them did this in about 6
months, which included having to invent a number of core elements of
parsing technology since they did not exist yet.
They would sit at a table, assembly language coding form in hand. One of
them would propose the next line of code, the other would agree or they
would discuss it if needed, and repeat for the next line. Those forms were
then handed to punch operators to be converted into 5-channel tape punched
in the odd code that the assembler (also by Dijkstra, part of his Ph.D.
thesis work) could read.
Amazing stuff. Also amazing is that, after several years of production
use, only two wrong-code bugs were discovered, both for highly exotic cases.
So I'd characterize early OS development
(meaning like 1956-1961) as:
developed "in memory" (e.g. CTSS is said to have been written in
FAP/MAD),
then the program exported to punch card (or
punched tape-- fan tape
being a
bit later and fairly exclusive to the
"DEC" ecosystem, as it were).
Once
verified "yeah this kind of works",
maybe that code quickly migrated over
to magtape (bearing it mind this was all pre-ASCII standards). But one
would need some kind of "bootloader" to then initiate it from magtape.
Early PDP-11 software development was done on PDP-10 timesharing systems,
including running it in simulation (MIMIC -- a precursor of SIMH). The
resulting bits would then go to paper tape, I'm pretty sure, to be loaded
into the target machine. That might in fact be a paper tape only system,
or if it was RSTS it would have disks but the initial OS load would be
paper tape.
Not all that long after, DECtape would typically be the OS distribution
medium. I'm not sure if those were created on PDP-10 systems; there was
FILEX to do that, but I don't know when that appeared.
By the time RSTS/E V5B arrived, development was on RSTS itself. I don't
know about V4A; system build (SYSGEN) used DOS, but it's hard to imagine
people doing software development on that sorry excuse for an operating
system.
paul
3:27 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 16:09 -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Well, I just learned today about the 1959 IBM term
"squozed" (maybe
some
comical combination of squeezed and frozen).
Apparently it was some kind of "compression" form of the punch card
content
(maybe something more like "raw machine code" than source code? but
in any
case, the intent was to help load/init the system faster) The term
may
have been slightly before 1959, but I'm seeing it in some IBM
catalogs of
1959.
"Squoze" was a text compression scheme. Sequences of more than two
blanks (or was it four?) were replaced by counters. Characters and
counters were then were stored continuously, even across input card
boundaries. then punched in column binary. "Squoze" decks were later
called "Prest" decks. The first column had a 7/9 punch. The second
column was an odd-parity checksum of columns 3-72. 73-76 had a sequence
number. 77-80 had ID.
One program to uncompress them (maybe not the original 7094 "squoze"
format) is
at https://vandyke.mynetgear.com/1401/cards/progs/ReadCB_m.f90 and
.../CardList.f90 and .../ListCB.f90
I used it on IBM 7094/7044 DCOS IBSYS to input a 6-tray program in one
tray. Compilers accepted plain text (not column binary) correction
cards between the deck header and the first column binary card. They
included a switch to punch a new "squoze" deck. Later I used it to move
programs from the Univac 1108 at work to the Varian V-73 at school.
My brother was a jazz musician. One day he called and asked what I was
doing. I said "writing a program do de-press a deck." He asked "why
don't you just sing it a sad song?"
— Van
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 3:53 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net>
wrote:
>
>
> > On Mar 1, 2026, at 4:32 PM, Steve Lewis via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Well, to clarify - my "amazement" was more the idea of developing
> > OS
> > software using paper (not as much the loading of one from paper,
> > though
> > that is still a "glad I didn't have to do that" thing :).
>
> There's a nice description, I think in Gauthier van den Hove's
> thesis, of
> the process used for the creation of the world's first full ALGOL
> 60
> compiler, by Dijkstra and Zonneveld. The two of them did this in
> about 6
> months, which included having to invent a number of core elements
> of
> parsing technology since they did not exist yet.
>
> They would sit at a table, assembly language coding form in hand.
> One of
> them would propose the next line of code, the other would agree or
> they
> would discuss it if needed, and repeat for the next line. Those
> forms were
> then handed to punch operators to be converted into 5-channel tape
> punched
> in the odd code that the assembler (also by Dijkstra, part of his
> Ph.D.
> thesis work) could read.
>
> Amazing stuff. Also amazing is that, after several years of
> production
> use, only two wrong-code bugs were discovered, both for highly
> exotic cases.
>
> > So I'd characterize early OS development (meaning like 1956-1961)
> > as:
> > developed "in memory" (e.g. CTSS is said to have been written in
> FAP/MAD),
> > then the program exported to punch card (or punched tape-- fan
> > tape
> being a
> > bit later and fairly exclusive to the "DEC" ecosystem, as it
> > were).
> Once
> > verified "yeah this kind of works", maybe that code quickly
> > migrated over
> > to magtape (bearing it mind this was all pre-ASCII standards).
> > But one
> > would need some kind of "bootloader" to then initiate it from
> > magtape.
>
> Early PDP-11 software development was done on PDP-10 timesharing
> systems,
> including running it in simulation (MIMIC -- a precursor of SIMH).
> The
> resulting bits would then go to paper tape, I'm pretty sure, to be
> loaded
> into the target machine. That might in fact be a paper tape only
> system,
> or if it was RSTS it would have disks but the initial OS load would
> be
> paper tape.
>
> Not all that long after, DECtape would typically be the OS
> distribution
> medium. I'm not sure if those were created on PDP-10 systems;
> there was
> FILEX to do that, but I don't know when that appeared.
>
> By the time RSTS/E V5B arrived, development was on RSTS itself. I
> don't
> know about V4A; system build (SYSGEN) used DOS, but it's hard to
> imagine
> people doing software development on that sorry excuse for an
> operating
> system.
>
> paul
>
>
>
12:36 p.m.
That's a great story Kevin! That'd be a photo I'd be interested in seeing,
of those cards (or if they're in some museum archives somewhere). Or in
some abandoned IBM warehouse.
I'm just trying to envision the workflow (since certainly I "wasn't
there"
in the 60's). There is a diagram in early editions of Operating Systems
Concepts, that shows a deck of punch cards - showing they contain CODE and
DATA. You'd have to load the FORTRAN compiler itself, insert a control
card to invoke the compiler, and then another control card to RUN your
compiled code. Translating that to modern workflow, I view it as like
loading the "runtime library" of your compiled code (the "little
things"
like math across multiple words, or interacting with whatever I/O devices
were available).
Also thanks Donald, neat link on punch cards, I hadn't come across that.
So whose got a similar thing for punched tape? (can we call it "fan tape"
or is that a separate category altogether?)
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 2:04 PM Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca> wrote:
Hi All:
My comments, worth two cents or less.
The first computer I ever used was an IBM 1130 my city’s school district
office at when I was a 14-year-old high school student. This was in 1974.
My exploration of the “IBM Disk Monitor System" on the machine led to me
clobbering the FORTRAN compiler on the removable hard disk by mistake one
evening. The disk had a form factor similar to the DEC RK05.
Staff discovered the problem the next morning and had to reload the
compiler from punched cards. They told me that they restored the entire
system disk (OS and FORTRAN) rather than just the compiler. I saw the ~5
drawers of punched cards that they used for this. I was mortified at my
mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble. Apparently the restore
took most of the day.
In this case it looks like the OS was held as backup on cards. It was a
small installation and there were no peripherals other than a card reader
and the integrated system console.
In bigger installations I agree, magtape was probably the standard media.
Postscript: don’t submit a DUP job:
// XEQ DUP
*DEFINE VOID FORTRAN
on an 1130. This does NOT give you examples of invalid FORTRAN code or
errors, as my young mind surmised, but deletes the FORTRAN compiler.
I got in trouble, but it wasn’t serious as I made an honest error, driven
by curiosity.
Kevin
IBM. I don't know what early DEC development looked like, but considering
the rarity of card handling equipment on DEC systems I would expect paper
tape.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 11:47 AM, Paul Koning via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits like
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape. In
some cases that involved punch equipment with custom-designed coding; for
example, the Electrologica X1 had a rudimentary assembler in ROM (along
with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on 5-channel paper tape, in a
code slightly above straight binary machine language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard
executable file loaders used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The famous
THE operating system was a paper tape batch system, with the OS image
supplied on tape (though I think at some point it was moved to magtape for
faster startup). No punched cards were seen there until the X8 was
replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even that machine had paper
tape input to support all the applications that had the input data on paper
tape. My father's precision measurement lab (part of the ME department)
had instruments that punched the measurements onto paper tape, for later
processing by that central computer system. All that was in ALGOL, by the
way.
paul
12:56 p.m.
Fan fold tape was used in DEC PC05 readers and suchlike see eg
https://retrocmp.com/stories/dec-pc05-papertape/242-dec-pc05-working-with-p…
Any DEC diagnostic, of the PT era, I have ever seen was issued on fan fold - much of
DEC's PT oeuvre is available online
I have fond recollections of using fan fold diagnostics etc etc on a DG Nova 2. Always
looking for bad memory ... Found it all too often.
Great technology until it spills, then you have to re-fold it by hand ...
Personally, I have always prefered the dump in dustbin (literally), respool on hand winder
technology.
Many hours spent plotting mainframe generated tapes on Nova - BC "before comms",
ie < ~ 1980
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: 01 March 2026 20:36
To: Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca>
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>rg>; Steve
Lewis <lewissa78(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Operating system, on punch cards?
That's a great story Kevin! That'd be a photo I'd be interested in seeing, of
those cards (or if they're in some museum archives somewhere). Or in some abandoned
IBM warehouse.
I'm just trying to envision the workflow (since certainly I "wasn't
there"
in the 60's). There is a diagram in early editions of Operating Systems
Concepts, that shows a deck of punch cards - showing they contain CODE and DATA.
You'd have to load the FORTRAN compiler itself, insert a control card to invoke the
compiler, and then another control card to RUN your
compiled code. Translating that to modern workflow, I view it as like
loading the "runtime library" of your compiled code (the "little
things"
like math across multiple words, or interacting with whatever I/O devices were available).
Also thanks Donald, neat link on punch cards, I hadn't come across that.
So whose got a similar thing for punched tape? (can we call it "fan tape"
or is that a separate category altogether?)
-Steve
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 2:04 PM Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca> wrote:
Hi All:
My comments, worth two cents or less.
The first computer I ever used was an IBM 1130 my city’s school
district office at when I was a 14-year-old high school student. This was in 1974.
My exploration of the “IBM Disk Monitor System" on the machine led to
me clobbering the FORTRAN compiler on the removable hard disk by
mistake one evening. The disk had a form factor similar to the DEC RK05.
Staff discovered the problem the next morning and had to reload the
compiler from punched cards. They told me that they restored the
entire system disk (OS and FORTRAN) rather than just the compiler. I
saw the ~5 drawers of punched cards that they used for this. I was
mortified at my mistake and expected that I was in BIG trouble.
Apparently the restore took most of the day.
In this case it looks like the OS was held as backup on cards. It was
a small installation and there were no peripherals other than a card
reader and the integrated system console.
In bigger installations I agree, magtape was probably the standard media.
Postscript: don’t submit a DUP job:
// XEQ DUP
*DEFINE VOID FORTRAN
on an 1130. This does NOT give you examples of invalid FORTRAN code
or errors, as my young mind surmised, but deletes the FORTRAN compiler.
I got in trouble, but it wasn’t serious as I made an honest error,
driven by curiosity.
Kevin
IBM. I don't know what early DEC development looked like, but
considering the rarity of card handling equipment on DEC systems I
would expect paper tape.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 11:47 AM, Paul Koning via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently
occurred to me, that basically all of the original operating
systems originated on punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits
like
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape.
In
some cases that involved punch equipment with custom-designed coding;
for example, the Electrologica X1 had a rudimentary assembler in ROM
(along with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on 5-channel paper
tape, in a code slightly above straight binary machine language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard
executable file loaders used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The
famous THE operating system was a paper tape batch system, with the OS
image supplied on tape (though I think at some point it was moved to
magtape for faster startup). No punched cards were seen there until
the X8 was replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even that
machine had paper tape input to support all the applications that had
the input data on paper tape. My father's precision measurement lab
(part of the ME department) had instruments that punched the
measurements onto paper tape, for later processing by that central
computer system. All that was in ALGOL, by the way.
paul
1:45 p.m.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 3:56 PM, Martin Bishop via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Fan fold tape was used in DEC PC05 readers and suchlike see eg
https://retrocmp.com/stories/dec-pc05-papertape/242-dec-pc05-working-with-p…
Any DEC diagnostic, of the PT era, I have ever seen was issued on fan fold - much of
DEC's PT oeuvre is available online
I have fond recollections of using fan fold diagnostics etc etc on a DG Nova 2. Always
looking for bad memory ... Found it all too often.
Great technology until it spills, then you have to re-fold it by hand ...
Personally, I have always prefered the dump in dustbin (literally), respool on hand
winder technology.
Many hours spent plotting mainframe generated tapes on Nova - BC "before
comms", ie < ~ 1980
Martin
Yes, that's the approach I saw first. The EL-X8 had 3 readers, each capable of over
1000 characters per second, which is pretty amazing for 1964 technology. More amazing
still, they could stop and restart on command, without missing characters. In other
words, the stop/start combined required less than 1 ms, the time between consecutive
frames on the tape.
I'm pretty sure that shop had powered tape winders, because winding long strings of
paper by hand power would get pretty tiring during a full shift. After all, this was a
batch system with all input -- programs and data -- on paper tape, so during a given shift
the operators probably handled a hundred tapes, maybe more.
paul
2 Mar
2 Mar
2:16 p.m.
The handbooks for Trend PTRs document brake configuration to both stop on an octet or in
the darkspace - educational.
I was given a powered Paper Tape Winder a few years ago, too on/off for my taste -
especially with aged media. A powered paper tape winder really wants a variable speed
motor with foot treadle control, for soft start, soft stop and damage control. I vouch
this having had to repair tapes scrunched by a PTR which just kept going. Subsequently, I
or'd a "stop" foot pedal with the brake solenoid drive - stand on brake ...
And, I adapted a coil winder into a tape winder see
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/visualise.php New shaft and slotted winding
hub, no real need for a cheek plate; finger and thumb. The base is 1/4" plate to
keep it in one place and preclude toppling.
<<snip>>
Yes, that's the approach I saw first. The EL-X8 had 3 readers, each capable of over
1000 characters per second, which is pretty amazing for 1964 technology. More amazing
still, they could stop and restart on command, without missing characters. In other
words, the stop/start combined required less than 1 ms, the time between consecutive
frames on the tape.
I'm pretty sure that shop had powered tape winders, because winding long strings of
paper by hand power would get pretty tiring during a full shift. After all, this was a
batch system with all input -- programs and data -- on paper tape, so during a given shift
the operators probably handled a hundred tapes, maybe more.
paul
1 Mar
1 Mar
12:18 p.m.
Well, ok, punch tape or paper tape is kind of "same difference" to me --
meaning, it wasn't mag tape nor disk pack (for the earliest "proto"
operating systems). [ but yes I realize the speed and workflow of punch
vs tape is quite different ]
And fair point, maybe IBM's lineage was the punch tape route (for CTSS),
other (early OS software) maybe more likely using paper tape (Burroughs
AOSP, CDC's SCOPE, and GE-645 with MULTICS).
I've seen OS's loaded from vinyl records and reel-to-reel, just never
imaged one being loaded from any kind of paper. :) But as far as I can
tell, CTSS and Atlas Supervisor were probably "single digit
installations". The first widely-deployed OS possibly was possibly CDC's
scope (meaning, more than a few hundred installations). Even MULTICS had a
fairly limited install base (as far as I can determine).
-Steve
.
On Sun, Mar 1, 2026 at 1:47 PM Paul Koning <paulkoning(a)comcast.net> wrote:
On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits like
IBM. I don't know what early DEC development looked like, but considering
the rarity of card handling equipment on DEC systems I would expect paper
tape.
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape. In
some cases that involved punch equipment with custom-designed coding; for
example, the Electrologica X1 had a rudimentary assembler in ROM (along
with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on 5-channel paper tape, in a
code slightly above straight binary machine language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard
executable file loaders used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The famous
THE operating system was a paper tape batch system, with the OS image
supplied on tape (though I think at some point it was moved to magtape for
faster startup). No punched cards were seen there until the X8 was
replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even that machine had paper
tape input to support all the applications that had the input data on paper
tape. My father's precision measurement lab (part of the ME department)
had instruments that punched the measurements onto paper tape, for later
processing by that central computer system. All that was in ALGOL, by the
way.
paul
12:35 p.m.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 3:18 PM, Steve Lewis
<lewissa78(a)gmail.com> wrote:
...
I've seen OS's loaded from vinyl records and reel-to-reel, just never imaged one
being loaded from any kind of paper. :)
I wrote my first programs in 1969, on paper tape (for the THE system EL-X8 I mentioned).
I remember they had magtapes, but I never used them or encountered anyone who did. My
other early machine was a Philips PR-8000, which had paper tape as its only storage
device.
I suspect the load tape was actually mylar, not paper, for strength. I didn't see
that often but I remember occasionally seeing punched mylar tape for tapes that were read
many times.
paul
1:16 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 14:18 -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
I've seen OS's loaded from vinyl records and
reel-to-reel, just never
imaged one being loaded from any kind of paper. :)
IMSAI and ALTAIR S-100 computer enthusiasts loaded code from audio tape
in "Kansas City" format. Computer magazines published programs in bar
code that you could scan into your computer with a light-pen bar-code
reader and a ruler.
But as far as I can
tell, CTSS and Atlas Supervisor were probably "single digit
installations". The first widely-deployed OS possibly was possibly
CDC's
scope (meaning, more than a few hundred installations). Even MULTICS
had a
fairly limited install base (as far as I can determine).
1:26 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 14:18 -0600, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
The first widely-deployed OS possibly was possibly
CDC's
scope (meaning, more than a few hundred installations). Even MULTICS
had a
fairly limited install base (as far as I can determine).
Univac 1108 EXEC 8 could run simultaneous batch, time sharing, and
real-time in 1968. At JPL we replaced six stand-alone 7094 and three
7094/44 Direct Couple with three Univac 1108s because 360/75 was only
OS/MFT batch without time sharing, and SCOPE didn't offer time sharing
at that time. On one 262,144-word machine we routinely had ten batch
jobs and fifty time-sharing jobs running. Univac told us that was
impossible, but they didn't want to talk to our guys who had made it
work (almost all done by Tom Lang). Burroughs claimed they could do the
job with an 6500, but they never got around to submitting a bid, and
they apparently never got an 8500 to work.
1 p.m.
On Sun, 2026-03-01 at 14:47 -0500, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I used a Bendix G-15 in 1963. It didn't really have an OS, but it did
have a simple one-address interpreter called INTERCOM that included
floating point and math functions. All on paper tape.
On Mar 1, 2026, at 2:34 AM, Steve Lewis via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Anyway, apologies - it was just something that only recently
occurred to
me, that basically all of the original operating systems originated
on
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even MULTICs.
That's certainly not true. It may be true for card-centric outfits
like IBM. I don't know what early DEC development looked like, but
considering the rarity of card handling equipment on DEC systems I
would expect paper tape.
Early software for the Dutch machines I know was done on paper tape.
In some cases that involved punch equipment with custom-designed
coding; for example, the Electrologica X1 had a rudimentary assembler
in ROM (along with a BIOS) and source text was given to it on 5-
channel paper tape, in a code slightly above straight binary machine
language.
Its successor the X8 had paper tape I/O standard, and the standard
executable file loaders used paper tapes. Ditto the bootstrap. The
famous THE operating system was a paper tape batch system, with the
OS image supplied on tape (though I think at some point it was moved
to magtape for faster startup). No punched cards were seen there
until the X8 was replaced by a Burroughs 6800, circa 1974, and even
that machine had paper tape input to support all the applications
that had the input data on paper tape. My father's precision
measurement lab (part of the ME department) had instruments that
punched the measurements onto paper tape, for later processing by
that central computer system. All that was in ALGOL, by the way.
paul
6:09 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 01, 2026 at 01:34:04AM -0600, Steve Lewis wrote:
So - are there any archives or collections of these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
Software for the IBM 1130 was distributed on punch cards and mag tape and
possibly other media. The VCF/MARCH museum has around 55 boxes of cards. This
site have read cards they had and include it with the simulator. Source is in
the zip file. http://ibm1130.org/sim/downloads/
Smaller system than ones you listed.
I tried to read some of the MARCH punch cards but didn't go well and haven't
gotten back to it. Should have pictures from when I was doing this but
so far haven't found them. It was a good while ago.
Did find the tapes I read.
https://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/misc/ibm_1130/pictures/
2 Mar
2 Mar
12:30 a.m.
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026, Steve Lewis wrote:
So - are there any archives or collections of these
original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
[...]
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even
MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
suppose.
Of course, have you had a look at the IBM 1130 for example?
The entire system is delivered on punch cards. We have at least two copies
(original IBM) of it. The monitor, the assembler, FORTRAN, but also COBOL,
ALGOL and APL. A couple thousand cards in total.
It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are stored
in special punch card drawers and cabinets.
Christian
5:43 a.m.
On 2026-03-02 1:30 a.m., Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
On Sun, 1 Mar 2026, Steve Lewis wrote:
That still leaves BASIC to be found.
That was a very little used disc pack.
Ben.
So - are there any archives or collections of
these original punch cards?
Or are they essentially all gone/destroyed, since in general after some
code was "perfected" it was likely then archived to tape?
[...]
punch cards: CTSS, Supervisor, AOSP, SCOPE, even
MULTICs. So - do any of
those decks of cards still exist in archive? Would be neat to see a
photo
of those - except it would be a shoebox of punch cards like any other, I
suppose.
Of course, have you had a look at the IBM 1130 for example?
The entire system is delivered on punch cards. We have at least two
copies (original IBM) of it. The monitor, the assembler, FORTRAN, but
also COBOL, ALGOL and APL. A couple thousand cards in total.
It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are stored
in special punch card drawers and cabinets.
Christian 
10:53 a.m.
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
Of course, have you had a look at the IBM 1130 for
example?
The entire system is delivered on punch cards. We have at least two copies
(original IBM) of it. The monitor, the assembler, FORTRAN, but also COBOL,
ALGOL and APL. A couple thousand cards in total.
It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are stored in
special punch card drawers and cabinets.
?
" A couple thousand cards in total.
" It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are
" stored in special punch card drawers and cabinets.
Really only a thousand cards?
If it is only a couple thousand cards, why drawerS and cabinetS?
Two thousand cards is one box.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:07 a.m.
On Mar 2, 2026, at 1:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
That's over 100 kB of data, if it's something like a 360 object deck which is a
bit of header plus binary data (byte per column).
Of course, have you had a look at the IBM 1130
for example?
The entire system is delivered on punch cards. We have at least two copies (original IBM)
of it. The monitor, the assembler, FORTRAN, but also COBOL, ALGOL and APL. A couple
thousand cards in total.
It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are stored in special
punch card drawers and cabinets.
? " A couple thousand cards in total.
" It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are "
stored in special punch card drawers and cabinets.
Really only a thousand cards? If it is only a couple thousand cards, why drawerS and
cabinetS?
Two thousand cards is one box.
Yes, but a box is only reasonably secure if it's entirely full. A cabinet (with a
sliding retainer) will hold a deck that isn't exactly 2000 cards.
paul
3 Mar
3 Mar
12:17 a.m.
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026, Fred Cisin wrote:
? " A couple thousand cards in total.
" It's all there, on cards, and archived, on the net. The cards are "
stored
in special punch card drawers and cabinets.
Really only a thousand cards?
If it is only a couple thousand cards, why drawerS and cabinetS?
Two thousand cards is one box.
With a couple thousands I mean several thousands. And drawerS and cabinetS
because we got several cabinetS with drawerS with our machine. One drawer
contains three trays that hold about 2000 cards each.
Download our files and count the card yourself!
As an example, the Monitor is stored in three trays.
Tray 1 has 1823 cards, tray 2 has 1887 cards, and tray three has 352
cards. This is only the bare OS! (version V2L12)
Then comes all the other stuff, assembler, FORTRAN, subroutine packages
etc.
Christian
9
days inactive
11
days old
47 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
ben -
Bill Degnan -
bluewater emailtoilet.com -
Carey Schug -
Christian Corti -
David Gesswein -
David Wade -
Fred Cisin -
Jay Jaeger -
Jon Elson -
Kevin McQuiggin -
Martin Bishop -
Nigel Johnson Ham -
Paul Koning -
Steve Lewis -
Van Snyder