18 Oct
2023
18 Oct
'23
6:56 a.m.
Hello all,
does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based (11/73)
PDP11.
A.
18 Oct
18 Oct
7 a.m.
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 09:56, hupfadekroua via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Hello all,
does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based (11/73)
PDP11.
Ultrix-11 doesn't support SCSI disks, as far as I am aware. What hardware
are you trying to use? In any case, you can easily use SIMH to install 3.1
(or your preferred version) and then transfer that to real hardware.
-Henry
7:16 a.m.
On 10/18/2023 10:00 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 09:56, hupfadekroua via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
PDP-11 SCSI Modules emulate MSCP and RA disks and work fine with
Ultrix-11.
bill
Hello all,
does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based (11/73)
PDP11.
Ultrix-11 doesn't support SCSI disks, as far as I am aware. What hardware
are you trying to use? In any case, you can easily use SIMH to install 3.1
(or your preferred version) and then transfer that to real hardware.
7:20 a.m.
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 10:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/18/2023 10:00 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote:
hardware
Interesting. My Dilog DQ614 (ST506 emulating RL02s) specifically does not
work with Ultrix, but does work with 2.xBSD and v7, so I would not
necessarily assume that a third-party board was going to work with
Ultrix-11's drivers.
-Henry
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 09:56, hupfadekroua via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based
(11/73)
PDP11.
Ultrix-11 doesn't support SCSI disks, as far as I am aware. What
are you trying to use? In any case, you can
easily use SIMH to install
3.1
(or your preferred version) and then transfer
that to real hardware.
PDP-11 SCSI Modules emulate MSCP and RA disks and work fine with
Ultrix-11.
7:32 a.m.
On Oct 18, 2023, at 10:20 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 10:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
There are two possible issues. One is that SCSI is a packet oriented storage
command/response system similar to MSCP but different. So the kind of controllers Bill
mentioned are essentiallly translators between the two protocols.
If what you have is a native SCSI controller -- one that exposes the actual SCSI commands
-- then that requires an entirely different driver because that isn't MSCP.
If you have an MSCP translator type controller, but the translation is poorly done, you
might end up with it failing for some operating systems. That's not too unlikely
given that the MSCP spec was for a long time a DEC confidential document, so third parties
had to reverse engineer things (and dodge DEC lawyers).
paul
On 10/18/2023 10:00 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote:
hardware
Interesting. My Dilog DQ614 (ST506 emulating RL02s) specifically does not
work with Ultrix, but does work with 2.xBSD and v7, so I would not
necessarily assume that a third-party board was going to work with
Ultrix-11's drivers. On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 09:56, hupfadekroua via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based
(11/73)
PDP11.
Ultrix-11 doesn't support SCSI disks, as far as I am aware. What are you trying to use? In any case, you can
easily use SIMH to install
3.1
(or your preferred version) and then transfer
that to real hardware.
PDP-11 SCSI Modules emulate MSCP and RA disks and work fine with
Ultrix-11.
9:21 a.m.
The EMULEX UC07 SCSI Adapter manual (
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex/UC0751001-F_UC07_Feb90.pdf) says:
"Ultrix-11 V3.0 and above"
Ulli
Am Mi., 18. Okt. 2023 um 16:32 Uhr schrieb Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>gt;:
On Oct 18, 2023, at 10:20 AM, Henry Bent via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 10:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
not
On 10/18/2023 10:00 AM, Henry Bent via cctalk wrote:
Interesting. My Dilog DQ614 (ST506 emulating RL02s) specifically does
On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 at 09:56, hupfadekroua via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based
(11/73)
> PDP11.
>
Ultrix-11 doesn't support SCSI disks, as far as I am aware. What
hardware
are you trying to use? In any case, you can
easily use SIMH to install
3.1
(or your preferred version) and then transfer
that to real hardware.
PDP-11 SCSI Modules emulate MSCP and RA disks and work fine with
Ultrix-11.
work with Ultrix, but does work with 2.xBSD and
v7, so I would not
necessarily assume that a third-party board was going to work with
Ultrix-11's drivers.
There are two possible issues. One is that SCSI is a packet oriented
storage command/response system similar to MSCP but different. So the kind
of controllers Bill mentioned are essentiallly translators between the two
protocols.
If what you have is a native SCSI controller -- one that exposes the
actual SCSI commands -- then that requires an entirely different driver
because that isn't MSCP.
If you have an MSCP translator type controller, but the translation is
poorly done, you might end up with it failing for some operating systems.
That's not too unlikely given that the MSCP spec was for a long time a DEC
confidential document, so third parties had to reverse engineer things (and
dodge DEC lawyers).
paul
4:38 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 7:32 AM Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
If you have an MSCP translator type controller, but the translation is poorly done, you
might end up with it failing for some operating systems. That's not too unlikely
given that the MSCP spec was for a long time a DEC confidential document, so third parties
had to reverse engineer things (and dodge DEC lawyers).
paul
I have at least one third-party vendor QBUS MSCP SCSI controller which
has a sticker on the PCB which says "Licensed under U.S. Letters
Patent 4,449,182"
Which is of course the DEC MSCP patent:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dsa/mscp/MSCP_Patent_4449182.pdf
So I guess at least in that case the vendor did play along with DEC lawyers.
20 Oct
20 Oct
10:28 a.m.
On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:21 AM Henry Bent via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting. My Dilog DQ614 (ST506 emulating RL02s)
specifically does not
work with Ultrix, but does work with 2.xBSD and v7, so I would not
necessarily assume that a third-party board was going to work with
Ultrix-11's drivers.
I have personally installed 2.9BSD on an 11/24 with RL11 and RL02 so I
_know_ that works (and I would expect the DQ614 to work there too). I
have a DQ614 but the Rodime drive that came with it was toast and I
only recently got the RT11 utility to fiddle drives so I haven't ever
tried to use mine. I may end up tossing an ST225 or ST241 on my DQ614
when I get around to trying it.
I do not know what drives Ultrix-11 supports but it wouldn't be
shocking to find that you can't use an RL02 as the root install
device. An RL02 was only big enough for the base install of 2.9BSD
and not big enough for base+sources so I was never able to rebuild my
kernel (it all worked fine on an RK07 at work).
In the past, I never did anything with 2.11BSD or Ultrix-11 because I
didn't have a new enough setup (most of my gear came from the 70s and
early 80s - no J-11 anywhere until recently).
As mentioned, if it's a well-implemented MSCP SCSI controller (UC07,
CQD220...), it should "just work" on any system there are MSCP drivers
for.
Cheers,
-ethan
10:46 a.m.
On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 at 13:28, Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:21 AM Henry Bent via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I have a SIMH installation of Ultrix-11 3.1 on RL02 drives. Two RL02s is
enough for a base system and four (which would be what the DQ614 provides,
if it worked) would be more than enough for sources and work, etc. The
Ultrix-11 RL driver does fancy things with overlapped seeks that I'm sure
works on real hardware but on the DQ614, not so much.
-Henry
Interesting. My Dilog DQ614 (ST506 emulating
RL02s) specifically does
not
work with Ultrix, but does work with 2.xBSD and
v7, so I would not
necessarily assume that a third-party board was going to work with
Ultrix-11's drivers.
I do not know what drives Ultrix-11 supports but it wouldn't be
shocking to find that you can't use an RL02 as the root install
device. An RL02 was only big enough for the base install of 2.9BSD
and not big enough for base+sources so I was never able to rebuild my
kernel (it all worked fine on an RK07 at work).
11:05 a.m.
On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 1:46 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I have a SIMH installation of Ultrix-11 3.1 on RL02
drives. Two RL02s is enough for a base system and four (which would be what the DQ614
provides, if it worked) would be more than enough for sources and work, etc.
Yes. 40MB should be plenty of room. 10MB was definitely not enough
for 2.9BSD, but at the time, I only had one RL02 drive.
The Ultrix-11 RL driver does fancy things with
overlapped seeks that I'm sure works on real hardware but on the DQ614, not so much.
Ah... I can see that. It wouldn't surprise me if the DQ614 got most
of its development and testing with RT-11 in mind, and possibly some
RSX-11.
I remember that the DEC RL controller (at least for PDP-11, not as
sure about the RL8A) did support some pretty handy things for a
multi-user OS, like overlapping seek, but I think in all the years I
worked with DEC gear, only a few machines had multiple RL drives.
Mostly I saw them as data transfer devices or for primary storage on
small (single-user) systems.
We did have one larger system, an 11/24 with four RL02, running RSTS/E
and whatever we were using for accounting software. I didn't work on
the machine myself except to physically disconnect and pack and move
it from one site to another when we consolidated our operations back
into one building.
-ethan
18 Oct
18 Oct
6:58 p.m.
On Oct 18, 2023, at 09:56, hupfadekroua via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Hello all,
does someone have a SCSI disc image of Ultrix 11 for a QBus based (11/73)
PDP11.
A.
I have sitting in front of me a PDP-11/83 running ULTRIX-11 v3.1 on MSCP SCSI via the
CMD CQD-200 controller. It’s working beautifully for me, pointed at a SCSI2SD with
“drives” around the size of an RA81.
I just installed it last week from a replica original distro tape I made. Happy to send
the image to you. You can boot the generic kernel and run /.setup/setup to reconfigure it
to your hardware needs, recompile kernel, etc.
If you have the means to use it, I could also make you a physical distribution tape so
you can experience a real virgin install in all its proper glory.
—Jake
West Bridgewater, Pennsylvania
213
days inactive
215
days old
10 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
Bill Gunshannon -
Ethan Dicks -
Glen Slick -
Hans-Ulrich Hölscher -
Henry Bent -
hupfadekroua -
Jacob Ritorto -
Paul Koning