24 Jan
2023
24 Jan
'23
2:09 p.m.
A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine :
1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
composite) 4-level analogue video.
I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the
model number? Is a service manual availabe?
Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket?
2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI interface. I think the
Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've
downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least
gives me the command set.
Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any
recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it
doesn't appear too hard?
FWIW to tie in to another thread, I like to keep my classic computers
original inside the box but am happy to link up non-standard
peripherals. So My P2000C will keep its 2 internal floppy drives and
CRT monitor. But I would have no problem with hanging an LCD monitor
off that video output socket.
-tony
24 Jan
24 Jan
3:34 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 5:09 PM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this
machine :
1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
composite) 4-level analogue video.
I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the
model number? Is a service manual availabe?
Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket?
Hi Tony,
I enjoyed the restoration description :)
Maybe the popular CM8333 ? I think it was also badged - perhaps with a
different interface - as the Commodore 1084.
It kind of took over from the BBC Microvitec Cub (15kHz, TTL RGB) as an
early Archimedes colour monitor.
https://blog.roberthargreaves.com/2016/04/16/cm8833-repair
I have a Logica VTS Kennet 2400 from about 1985. It was an MS-DOS machine
when those could exist without being PC-compatible. It also had SASI : the
interface isn't much more than buffer and latch, but formed the basis for
SCSI. We used either a Xebec controller or Adaptec. with ST506 discs. It's
a very simple interface, a subset and predecessor of SCSI I think. I have
extensive manuals for the machine which include the SASI interface and the
command set. I did have a SASI controller on it at one time - it might
still be there.
3:45 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:35 PM Adrian Godwin <artgodwin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 5:09 PM Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here :
It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that
it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in
that way
I has a SCART socket so either composite PAL video (if you have the
decoder stuff fitted, a lot do not) or analogue RGB with composite
sync.So not a direct connection to the P2000C's separate syncs
Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to
dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12"
diagonal.
A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine :
1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
composite) 4-level analogue video.
I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the
model number? Is a service manual availabe?
Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket?
Hi Tony,
I enjoyed the restoration description :)
Maybe the popular CM8333 ? I think it was also badged - perhaps with a different
interface - as the Commodore 1084.
It kind of took over from the BBC Microvitec Cub (15kHz, TTL RGB) as an early Archimedes
colour monitor.
https://blog.roberthargreaves.com/2016/04/16/cm8833-repair
I have a Logica VTS Kennet 2400 from about 1985. It was an MS-DOS machine when those
could exist without being PC-compatible. It also had SASI : the interface isn't much
more than buffer and latch, but formed the basis for SCSI. We used either a Xebec
controller or Adaptec. with ST506 discs. It's a very simple interface, a subset and
predecessor of SCSI I think. I have extensive manuals for the machine which include the
SASI interface and the command set. I did have a SASI controller on it at one time - it
might still be there.
The Phlips service manual for the P2000C includes the schematics of
the SASI interfae on the main PCB. It's simple, mostly TTL I/O ports.
I can't believe the device-side interface is any worse.
And assuming I'm right about the Xebec board I have the command set too.
-tony
4:02 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:46 PM Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
another Philips monitor in the same or similar case. I've seen it in both
Green and Amber phosphors. This was also used on the Beeb when colour was
too expensive. I can't remember the number now though.That was almost
certainly composite though - but it was such a common monitor it's quite
possible there was a separate-sync version.
>
> 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
> monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
> TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
> composite) 4-level analogue video.
I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here
:
It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that
it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in
that way
I missed that. So it was pinned for colour but only used mono ?There was
Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to
dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12"
diagonal.
You're right. Mine has 13" visible so probably a 14" tube. And
although the
mono might have been smaller, that case shape is so embedded in my memory
that I think they must have been 14" too - a 12" version would have looked
amusingly miniaturised.
4:15 p.m.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 7:02 PM Adrian Godwin <artgodwin(a)gmail.com> wrote:
The CRT is an M34EAQ10X according to the CM8833 service manual. The
'M' indicates a colour screen and he '34' is the diagonal in cm I
think. So about 13.3"
To be honest I find the 12" monitor for the P2000C somewhat odd. It's
not a major size increase over the intenral 9" thing. I would have
thought a much larger monitor, e.g. to show to a group, would have
been more use.
-tony
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 6:46 PM Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
I missed that. So it was pinned for colour but only used mono ?
The P2000C is a monochome system. The built-in monitor is a green
screen (P31 phosphor) 9" CRT. The terminal board can output 4
intensity levels, either for things like highlighted text or in
grpahics mode (there's 256*252 in 4 levels or 512*252 in 2 levels).
The video output socket is essentially the same signals as go to the
internal monitor, although separately buffered.
There re 5 pins on the video socket. They are (in some order)
Ground
Horizonal Sync
Vertical Sync
Analogue Video
and, I think, dot clock.
No colour at all.
>
> 1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
> monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
> TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
> composite) 4-level analogue video.
I know it well, but it is unlikely to be the monitor I am looking for here :
It's colour (and the P2000C is clearly a monochrome output).While that
it no real barrier, I doubt Philips would have wasted a colour CRT in
that way
There was another Philips monitor in the same or
similar case. I've seen it in both Green and Amber phosphors. This was also used on
the Beeb when colour was too expensive. I can't remember the number now though.That
was almost certainly composite though - but it was such a common monitor it's quite
possible there was a separate-sync version.
My thought is that having provided this rather unusual video output,
they would have produced a monitor for it. But while I can find
minimal details (like it was a 12" CRT), I can't find a model number
mentioned anywhere. Nor any web page that shows it.
Is it 12"? Something is telling me it's a 14" CRT but I am not gong to
dig mine out to check. The service manual implies it is over 12"
diagonal.
You're right. Mine has 13" visible so probably a 14" tube. And although the
mono might have been smaller, that case shape is so embedded in my memory that I think
they must have been 14" too - a 12" version would have looked amusingly
miniaturised. 
4:47 p.m.
On 01/24/2023 11:09 AM CST Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine :
1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
composite) 4-level analogue video.
I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the
model number? Is a service manual availabe?
Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket?
In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar monitors (without
case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. I believe they were mostly Mitsubishi /
Panasonic. Most of them were 9" with a lesser number of 12". They had an edge
connector for the power, ground, H sync, V sync, and video inputs. Of course, in the US,
they were 15750 / 60 Hz sync. I can only guess what their original purpose was, but they
were easy to connect to a PC RGB video card (four resistors got you 16 gray shades.) So
that interface wasn't too uncommon. Perhaps there is/was something similar available
on the other side of the pond?
Maybe the reason you can't find any trace of the Philips add-on is for the same
reasons you suggest -- marketing realized it was of little value prior to releasing it.
2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI interface. I
think the
Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've
downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least
gives me the command set.
Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any
recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it
doesn't appear too hard?
I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a single-board Z80 computer the size of a 5
1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI interface. A couple of
years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for it and dug through a lot of specs and
bios code. Original SCSI was almost identical to SASI and they were often
interchangeable. The protocol is rather simple, as you stated. What I found in the Ampro
bios code was that for reading and writing only about 4 commands were used. Another small
number were used for formatting. I think, iirc, there were two types of read and two
types of write. I never got around to building the thing, but it should be pretty simple.
I would also be rather surprised if no one else has done it. But if you have the P-2000
bios code, you could take a look. I suspect it would be very similar to the Ampro code.
Will
6:46 p.m.
!Chassis monitors". Built for things like ATMs.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 9:12 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 1/24/2023 2:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar
monitors (without case) sold on the surplus market. I had one.
Wow, that's a scary memory. I had one as well. Don't even remember
what I used it
for.
bill
25 Jan
25 Jan
1:25 a.m.
On Tue, Jan 24, 2023 at 7:47 PM Will Cooke via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Quite common, over here too.
The interface is normally a 10 pin 0.156" edge connector carrying the
signals you mention along with ground, +12V and (often) 3 wires to the
brightness control. In fact the VT100 terminal has such a monitor PCB
inside it.
The internal monitor of the P2000C is similar, it has a header
connector with +12V, ground, syncs, video on it. Oddly it's a
Mitsubishi unit, for all Philips were making suitable CRTs, flyback
transformers, etc at the time.
On 01/24/2023 11:09 AM CST Tony Duell via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
A couple of questions if anyone has experience of this machine :
1) There is a 5 pin DIN socket for connecting an external video
monitor. The signals seem to be TTL-level separate syncs at European
TV rates (15625Hz horizontal, 50Hz vertical) and separate (not
composite) 4-level analogue video.
I believe Philips sold a 12" monitor to connect there. What was the
model number? Is a service manual availabe?
Has anybody linked other monitors to that socket?
In the US in the late 80s and 90s, there were a crap ton of similar monitors (without
case) sold on the surplus market. I had one. I believe they were mostly Mitsubishi /
Panasonic. Most of them were 9" with a lesser number of 12". They had an edge
connector for the power, ground, H sync, V sync, and video inputs. Of course, in the US,
they were 15750 / 60 Hz sync. I can only guess what their original purpose was, but they
were easy to connect to a PC RGB video card (four resistors got you 16 gray shades.) So
that interface wasn't too uncommon. Perhaps there is/was something similar available
on the other side of the pond? Maybe the reason you can't find any trace of the
Philips add-on is for the same reasons you suggest -- marketing realized it was of little
value prior to releasing it.
Alas there is no source of either the CBIOS or the boot ROM in any of
the P2000C manuals and I suspect such source was never released. But
it should be possible to kludge up something to do the SASI handshake
and see just what does come out of that port when I try to boot from a
hard disk or whatever.
-tony
2) There is a 50 pin card edge for a SASI
interface. I think the
Philips hard disk unit used the Xebec S1410 controller. I've
downloaded the user manual for that from bitsavers which at least
gives me the command set.
Does anyone have experience of a SASI-flash memory interface? Any
recomendations for things to look at? Or should I design my own, it
doesn't appear too hard?
I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a single-board Z80 computer the size of a 5
1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI interface. A couple of
years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for it and dug through a lot of specs and
bios code. Original SCSI was almost identical to SASI and they were often
interchangeable. The protocol is rather simple, as you stated. What I found in the Ampro
bios code was that for reading and writing only about 4 commands were used. Another small
number were used for formatting. I think, iirc, there were two types of read and two
types of write. I never got around to building the thing, but it should be pretty simple.
I would also be rather surprised if no one else has done it. But if you have the P-2000
bios code, you could take a look. I suspect it would be very similar to the Ampro code.
4:43 a.m.
I have an Ampro Little Board Plus, which is a
single-board Z80 computer
the size of a 5 1/4" disk drive. The "plus" means it has a SCSI
interface. A couple of years ago I was planning to build a flash disk for
it and dug through a lot of specs and bios code. Original SCSI was almost
identical to SASI and they were often interchangeable. The protocol is
rather simple, as you stated. What I found in the Ampro bios code was that
for reading and writing only about 4 commands were used. Another small
number were used for formatting. I think, iirc, there were two types of
read and two types of write. I never got around to building the thing, but
it should be pretty simple. I would also be rather surprised if no one
else has done it. But if you have the P-2000 bios code, you could take a
look. I suspect it would be very similar to the Ampro code.
Alas there is no source of either the CBIOS or the boot ROM in any of
the P2000C manuals and I suspect such source was never released. But
it should be possible to kludge up something to do the SASI handshake
and see just what does come out of that port when I try to boot from a
hard disk or whatever.
-tony
639
days inactive
640
days old
9 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
Adrian Godwin -
Bill Gunshannon -
Mattis Lind -
Tony Duell -
wrcooke＠wrcooke.net