Adrian, Thanks, yeah that was a left over to compare an alternate ending. One idea is to make it such that the video can "loop" seamlessly for continuous play, at say a museum. And the plan is to put it under Creative Commons since I'm told that's the best way to help ensure it can be re-used without question. The plan was to keep it to 10min - at one point we had it up to 30min!! Minus the inadvertent excess, it'll be exactly 15min. A part2 might focus more on the Z80 and 6502 lines themselves, or I was thinking a kind of bio on the actual engineers involved ("the names and faces"). Canada is represented also :) And I just recalled, the "TK-80" (training kit Z80 board) is also a "made in Japan" item (and led to the PC-8001 in '79), it probably needs a flag (and I wanted to show a France flag for the Micral-N -- but in the effort to keep it closer to 10min, we just couldn't cover every item to keep a reasonable tempo). So then we debated to not have popup flags at all, but I felt it was important to note that there was international involvement here. -Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:55 AM Adrian Godwin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: > Not really technical, but a couple of presentation points : > > > It seems to be common to consider Youtube videos more approachable if > they're up to about 10 minutes long. You might benefit by splitting it into > 2 parts. > > And even further off topic .. I see that the pictorial guide includes > machines from GB and Japan (and I think a Sharp is mentioned in the > description). Although GB was heavily influenced by USA machines it did > have it's own distinct history and so, I think, did Japan. Russia also had > clones of well known machines and their own designs. Did any other > countries have a history that was more complex than picking the best known > parts of the international trade ? > > > > On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:24 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve > > >

Yes. I second that. Having the daughter as a narrator is perfect. No offense, Steve. Regards, Tarek Hoteit

There is ample evidence of people doing personal computing before the microprocessor was invented. There was a whole terminal/time sharing scene in the late 60s, plus people who did personal computung by using the machine at a school, work, or library. There were also people whonowned surplussed minicomputers who used them at home. I think you should consider mentioning this somehow. Really, your video is about personal computers with a microprocessor installed. A person from the 70s would not look at computing the same as we do today. The larger consumer of "home computers" were doing engineering type work, not so much playing games. Even the apple/tandy/commodore users. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 1:43 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

&lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; today. places. Computer Games are almost as old as (Turing Complete) Computers. Alan Turing insisted that the Manchester/Ferranti MK1 had a Random Number generator. Christopher Strachey wrote a tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to the English) program which displayed its output in patterns on the MK1 screen. In 1951 he wrote a checkers/draughts program for the Mk1. He also wrote the "love letters" program..... .. Turing was thinking about Chess but he couldn't fit it in the MK1.... Dave

Don't forget that Heathkit had analog home computer kits in the 50's and 60's https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/restoring-the-heathkit-es-400-co… https://s3data.computerhistory.org/brochures/heath.analog.1956.102646297.pdf https://www.nutsvolts.com/magazine/article/May2016_Heathkit_Restoration On 3/8/2023 1:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:49 AM Mike Katz via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: To say nothing of the Digi-Comp 1, the MINIVAC 601/6010, the GENIAC/BRAINIAC, and of course, SIMON (1950-51). Sellam

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:04 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I was able to score one of those for my collection off eBay not too long ago. They don't come around often (or cheaply, for that matter). Sellam

SO - To return to the video feedback - I think the author should comment on the evolution of what "Home Computing" is/was, the evolution in demographics of the home computer user, the cost, etc. Needs perspective Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 2:41 PM Bill Degnan &lt;billdegnan(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 11:54 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Ha! Are you kidding, Tarek? This is the Classic Computers Mailing List. Pedantic arguments are a mandatory feature here :D All things considered, I agree that it's a good video. Sellam

On 3/8/2023 3:18 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: I think the real argument is:  Does it have to be a computer made for home use or just any computer that found it's way into a home. I had some good sized iron in my home in the early 80's. bill

On 3/8/23 14:18, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Yes, there is a "famous" picture of a LINC set up at the bottom of the stairs of Mary Allen Wilkes parent's home (Nobody wanted to carry the beast up the stairs...) This was in 1965.  She wrote the definitive OS for that machine (LAP6). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Allen_Wilkes Jon

Technically true. However, if I would reference the book “The Friendly Orange Glow” on the history of Plato, there is a chapter I recall in which the author mentioned someone taking a terminal to their home Regards, Tarek Hoteit

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:11 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I'm sure specific dates are out there, but as far as generally, the Apple ][ and PET were available for actual purchase prior to the TRS-80, and between the Apple ][ and the PET, I believe the former shipped first. Sellam

On 2023-03-08 2:13 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Not to mention people who designed and built their own processors, I recall Byte had them as a feature article in an issue with a memorable front cover picture of a cascade small boards joined by jumper wire flowing to the floor off a table, that was apparently a working computer. Paul.

Tarek, middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high and your daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on software. For once, our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) You got it, the hope is to help awareness and be something acceptable for schools to use. And part of this started when my daughter asked me "what was the first home computer?" I just couldn't give a simple answer :) She did the background (her signature is at the bottom left, "Carrion" -- and its subtle, but the gray at the top and bottom was intended to represent silica sand) and picked most of the system arrangement. Thanks! Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 9:25 AM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: > middle-schooler daughter whom you had her help make such a high quality > video. I assume that such videos will also be shared at schools, and your > daughter’s friends. It would help raise awareness on the history of > computers that ultimately led to today’s devices and software. For once, > our kids can say “aha, so this is where home computers came from?” :) > In terms of content, I love the wealth of photos that are included. I can > see that a lot of research was made for each item. As for the chronology of > events or machines, there is never a 100% accurate story. Adrian, talked > about US, UK, and Japan influence Yes but then what’s the fine line of > telling the story without getting too long and too technical. I think you > managed to strike a good balance in your video in terms of content and > machines. Well done! > > Regards, > Tarek Hoteit > > > On Mar 8, 2023, at 3:25 AM, Steve Lewis via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: > > > > Greetings, > > > > We're making final touches on a short history-video we've been making > about > > home computers (my daughter, in middle school, has been helping). > > > > If anyone has time/interest to do a review, the draft listing is here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9mgSVJZoFc > > > > Unless anyone spots a gross technical error, we're hoping to render the > > final sometime this weekend or sometime this month. > > > > Thanks, > > Steve >

She made you proud!! If all our kids can get as excited and curious about the history of computers as your daughter then the future will be so bright. We probably need to get more advice from her on what we all, old-school timers, should do to help keep the legacy going on ! Regards, Tarek Hoteit

Thank you, Bill! When Steve posted the video about the history of computers, I thought something like “cool to see another video” But when he mentioned a middle schooler helping, that changed the entire perspective for me. I am close to 50. I have seen and been part of vintage and classic computing. I still enjoy them and my kids, who are now 19 and 17, have heard me talking a lot about computing. Yet, they had no curiosity on any of those. “It is a dad’s thing”, they would say. Same thing happened with my siblings at a younger age. I am a Gen X. My two siblings are one a Gen X and another a Gen Y. My kids are a Gen Z. No one in my family had any interests. Then I get frustrated when I hear my nieces, nephews or even my kids saying “ChatGpt is so cool” or “TikTok does magic with the videos” or “Instagram has these cool filters.” Yet, they have no clue about everything or anything in tech that led to those creations. I try to bring back the topics of bits, bytes, ram, cpu, inventions in tech. They respond with nothing but a blank-I-am-bored face. None of these younger generation are even curious about the Ataris, the Vectrex, the old machines, or even the legacy books that is on our shelves. Then I see the message from Steve about his middle schooler. That is amazing. That is awesome! I rarely type on this newsgroup or any newsgroup. Steve’s post (and subsequent update) about his middle schooler being curious and is helping with the video has made my day! I hope it did for all other fellow old-timers! Regards, Tarek Hoteit

:) it makes sense, Sellam, to inform her rather than she telling us, but again she and others her age are the future. She will do it her way just like we, at her age, did it our way. Funny: i just remembered a quote from Goonies - “this is our time” It is their time Regards, Tarek Hoteit

THe LGP-30 was to arguably the first personal electronic (non analog) computer, my opinion, but it covers all of the bases as I see them. A relatively small stand alone real time general purpose electronic computer that one person could operate. Bill On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:22 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM Jon Elson via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: John, I have the manuals for both systems. I don't get the impression that the G-15 was sold as a "personal computer" in the same way as the Royal McBee LGP-23/30 were. The Bendix has an analog computing aspect as well so it's a different beast. I am sure people used them for some degree of personal computing, but I never read about them that way. Bill

No doubt it was capable of being operated by a single user, but that to me does not make it a personal computer. The LGP-30 was used in schools and offices not targeted for industrial use. There is really no reason why any computer could not be a personal computer, if you know everything about it and use independently and operate for personal use. It's really impossible to claim any computer was the "first personal computer", but I like the LGP-30 as one of the first. I bet someone used the BENDIX for fun once in a while, too. BIll

Sellam, One criteria to me is not so much about the machine/system itself, but on how it is originally financed. If it costs more than a house or has to be financed by a committee, then it's not personal in the same sense as something like "my toothbrush." Because the use of that system is (generally) then under the control and whims of that committee or owners - they paid for it, so they get to decide what to do with it and who is authorized to use it. Once such a system retires or gets replaced, and then becomes part of 2nd hand market or surplus, then it's a "found object" that could coincidentally become "personally owned." But I think the original context on how the system came to exist stands. Then a second criteria (to me) is like the "my toothbrush" sentiment - it is something small enough or compact enough that an individual can manage putting it where they personally want it to be. That doesn't necessarily mean it fits in a pocket - but something about the size of small furniture or a typical kitchen appliance or smaller is about right. A third criteria is that it was built as a consumer product - meaning not just a hand full exist. The rationale here is that it is a "repeatable product" and the process of how the thing was made isn't so esoteric or obscure (or enough "production line" effort was made to make it repeatable, if only for a time), This helps draw the line between one-off custom builds -- which those are the ultimate personal computer ("I made it") but (to me) are just a different category (I didn't make my toothbrush, but the process for making it is so well understood its become a consumer product). -Steve

Most important of all, for the video, your daughter should decide what parameters matter to her! On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:

A revised TAKE #10 version of the video is here to clean up some aspects (some notes in the Description; still DRAFT and unlisted) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eaolOAcvmg On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 1:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

It's helping arrange content and tempo, so it's been good for that (and why it is still a "draft"). We'll try to get it read (but no sound studio, so then you end up with dog barks, lawn mowers, and airplanes in the background haha). I don't think I can do attachments here, but could post the "script" instead. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 12:28 PM geneb via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On 2023-03-09 10:31 a.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Quit changing the rules, BIG COMPUTERS make a great home computer. The cpu has been repainted and makes a lovely walk in kitchen. The power supplies make both a up stairs and down stairs bathroom. Three 4K single core bed rooms and master 8K bed room with extra big Cache. ... and FREE air conditioning, Coming soon to a DUMPSTER near you. I think the IBM-1130 would be the only vintage computer that be a the first personal computer, as It came with BASIC,FORTRAN IV and APL. Ben.

Everyone on this list is going to die sometime. Some sooner than later. We need young people if all or any part of this history is going to be preserved past us. All of the "museum" fiascos that have been covered here show how easily it is lost. But as Tarek mentioned in his follow up, very few young people are interested. So, how do we get them interested? I can't think of a better idea than asking one of the few that IS interested. Can you? Will

Running museum (kennettclassic.com) I meet with kids daily who are very interested in computing history. They all seem to know the Youtubers who specialize in vintage gaming and computing. These youtube channels are not always historically accurate but it's a start. Most younger people gravitate to systems made after 1990. They're not as interested in things they can't identify with. It's hard to just jump in. Computers are not like cars. Computers from 50 years ago are fundamentally different. Cars that are 50 years old can still drive the highways b On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 3:43 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

So, how do we get them interested? I Some variation of "what is it that makes this interesting to you?"

We can get them excited by thinking like them - videos (narrated by their kind not us) and we are in the background. We play old school games and make fun of the 8bit sounds in front of them. Some might get curious and say “why does this sound like that?” Or “why this graphic looks so different”. Then we begin a short story “once upon a time …” but end it in 10 minute or less. Or, jokes aside, we consult with Steve’s middle schooler cause, honesty, I have not heard of any other person at that age truly interested. Regards, Tarek Hoteit

Since we are never going to completely agree on "First", "computer", "home computer", "home computing", (using a a terminal with a remote computer) might I suggest the works of Edmund Berkeley. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniac https://www.instructables.com/GENIAC-Electric-Brain-Replica/ Full text of "Giant Brains, or, Machines That Think" https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.233530 https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/68991 OB_tangent: I remember that Jim Warren said "machinew WHO think" On the issue of "first", many authors on the topic have personal "requirements" for it to be considered. (such as storage, video display, keyboard, HDD, etc.) "It wasn't REALLY a computer, unless it had ..." In MOST cases, they will declare the "first" to be one generation before they got one. CP/M users often choose Altair; People who started in PC will often pick CP/M; people who started with Windoze might pick DOS, Mac users declare Apple2, etc. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com

Thank you all for the notes (and feedback). The 1964 skit of Patty Duke using that Univac-422 - all the markings of a personal computer right there, no doubt. But dragging that into a home doesn't make it a home computer. As engineers, sure, we're good with that - I don't even put cases on my computers. Air flow, pffff, overrated. Unless the AC cuts out in the summer. The original video title I had was "domesticating the computer." Like taming wild cats and wolves, and finally bringing them into our homes as tamed beasts that become our companions. Maybe I should go back to that title? Some thoughts: You can drag something like a LINC or Univac home, but it's still quite a beast - and you'll be on your own with what is essentially a one-off system (i.e. for finding parts and tech manuals). Even if they made 1000 of them at best, that's still rare to find an expert to help with those systems. A few technical folks could handle that - spending all evening loading some kind of software, and all weekend replacing tubes. But the typical consumer won't bother. One of my favorite references: https://www.tech-insider.org/personal-computers/research/acrobat/7807.pdf And here is my summary of that article: May 5 1966: (Steven B Gray founded Amateur Computer Society) 1966: book "We Built Our Own Computer" by A B Bolt (not much for 1967 - some CQ magazine kits that were never built) April 1968: ECHO IV (Jim Sutherland; 8K, 18 instructions, 160 kHz) (no highlights for 1969/1970 - but CTC/Datapoint was active around this time on their 3300) 1971: 1000 Minutemen I missile guidance processors became available in surplus 1971: first "computer kit" (Louis E Frenzel, 15 instructions) 1971: Kenbak-1 (65 instructions, audio cassette storage) 1972: Don Tarbell - editor program and assembler program early 1972: opening of "several used computer equipment stores" (used as in surplus) 1972: 8008, TTL price drops, 1101 programmable memory (and the 1702) 1972: Roger Amidon's 4-bit "Spider" (TTL, RTTY, featured in BYTE April 1977) Sept. 1972: Hal Chamberline, HAL-4096 (surplus IBM 1620 core, 16-bit system) Sept. 1972: Electronic Design article, 1024 ASCII chars on a TV set May 1973: EPD System One kit Sept. 1973: Don Lancaster TVT-1 Late 1973: Scelbi-8H ($2760 for 16KB, cassette IO, ASCII keyboard, o-scope output), defunct Dec. 1974 1973: PDP-8A under $900 July 1974: Radio Electronics Jonathan Titus, Mark-8 (est. 500 units built) Oct. 1974: SwTPC TVT-II kit and ASCII keyboard ($220 total) April 1975: *first deliveries *of Altair 8800 (kit had no IO, 10k sold by end of year per MITS) April 1975: first computer-club meeting (Bob Reiling, Gordon French) Fall 1975: MITS 4K/8K BASIC interpreters Fall 1975: SwTPC 6800-based microcomputer (end of first decade of "amateur computing") Other notes: 1969: Busicom/Intel contract for printer-calculator ($200 4004) 1971: Datapoint/Intel relationship ($200 8008, interrupt capability), Intel introduces 1101 and 1702 1972: National Semiconductor introduces IMP-16 ("user definable instruction set") 1973: Intel 8080 ("still required an external clock and multiple power supplies", vs 6800 required one TTL power supply) 1975-1976: "3rd gen microprocessors" Z-80, enhanced 8080 (on chip clock), 6502, TMS9900/TMS9980 (16-bit) 1977: "4th gen microprocessors" (actual "microcomputers in a single IC" -- microprocessor, ROM, programmable memory, IO on one chip) As to opinions from younger folks: one thing I'd like to say is "don't give up on them." Teenagers may be aloof and not seem interested now - but don't be overly discouraged. Years later, perhaps even decades, they may remember something about the experience and come back to it. I think my Ice Breaker with my daughter was playing 1987 Wheel of Fortune (or maybe 1988) on the IBM PC a couple years ago -- it's "fugly" in CGA but yet charming in its way. But the real kicker is, my daughter won (virtually) "5000 lbs of pot" when she won one of the rounds in that version, and we still laugh about that since it was so unexpected from a "family game from the 1980s". -Steve On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 1:55 PM Will Cooke via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: