22 Jan
2023
22 Jan
'23
1:14 p.m.
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product of Xerox was intended not so much for
general use but to aid youngins and disabled people with their usage. And despite the
never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly
everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which
is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications.
Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, make that
way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. But again that'a me.
Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They have their place. And for
portable devices they're largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least
had the option of a mouse or something close.
Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of the newer tech
just await refinement?
22 Jan
22 Jan
4:19 p.m.
On 2023-01-22 6:14 a.m., Chris via cctalk wrote:
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product
of Xerox was intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people
with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an
indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But
it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain
applications.
Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, make that
way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. But again that'a me.
Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They have their place. And for
portable devices they're largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least
had the option of a mouse or something close.
Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of the newer
tech just await refinement?
CHEAPER IS BETTER!!! PC CLONES.
or SELL A NEW PRODUCT AT HIGH PRICE AND CALL IT BETTER TECH !!!
$100 mouse. $100 usb cables.
or JUST BE BIGGER, APPLE,IBM,INTEL.
It all boils down to marketing, and how to make people by newer crap.
Ben.
4:43 p.m.
On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote:
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product
of Xerox was intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people
with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an
indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But
it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain
applications.
I use a trackball on all my computers. Logitech works, but
very expensive. I use Kensington version. I do a lot of
electronic CAD work, and the mouse moves when I go to click
a button. That requires me to have a death grip on the
mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel symptoms. You can
take your fingers off the trackball before pressing the
buttons, then there is no cursor motion.
Jon
6:38 p.m.
On 1/22/23 08:43, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
On 1/22/23 07:14, Chris via cctalk wrote:
When CT started to make my life miserable, I tried the Cirque pad as
well as the C-H Products trackballs (still have them all). What made
the difference for me was training my non-dominant hand to use the mouse.
I still use a trackball where space is tight, however.
--Chuck
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a
product of Xerox was
intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled
people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly
linux fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There
was a stint where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which
is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications.
I use a
trackball on all my computers. Logitech works, but very
expensive. I use Kensington version. I do a lot of electronic CAD
work, and the mouse moves when I go to click a button. That requires me
to have a death grip on the mouse, and that gives me carpal tunnel
symptoms. You can take your fingers off the trackball before pressing
the buttons, then there is no cursor motion. 
11 p.m.
I find touch pads
superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on
old Thinkpads.
I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take up too much
real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately (see what I did there... lol),
and are hard to do multi click, and drag and drop operations with them. Touch screens have
their uses but I think they are very limited (i.e. works best in an app only environment
where interaction is menu/choice based). The younger generation would disagree...
-Ali
11:02 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:00 PM Ali via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Bring back the light pen!
I find touch
pads
superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on
old Thinkpads.
I am the exact opposite. I love my track point. Hate touch pads. They take
up too much real estate, are consistently being touched inappropriately
(see what I did there... lol), and are hard to do multi click, and drag and
drop operations with them. Touch screens have their uses but I think they
are very limited (i.e. works best in an app only environment where
interaction is menu/choice based). The younger generation would disagree...
11:12 p.m.
Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever actually used a light pen.
Sellam
On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 3:04 PM Ali via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Bring back the light pen!
Have you tried dragging and dropping in Excel with a light pen? OMG, never
again ;)
-Ali
23 Jan
23 Jan
5:56 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I am the exact opposite. I love my track point.
Agreed.
Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if
my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use
the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands
on the keyboard, and generally less hassle.
I find it interesting watching people using trackpads. Most don't know
*how* to use them effectively.
The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large
pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your
fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the
finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or
toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right
movements.
Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it
by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but
acceptably.
Which I think is also the point about MS Office 2007 and later.
Before, with menus and toolbars, it was efficient once you memorised
the layout of the menus and the hotkeys, and you could customise the
toolbars as you saw fit. (I used to place them vertically at left and
right of the workspace, add a bunch of my own buttons, remove some,
and then I worked out it was quicker to memorise the hotkeys and just
hide the toolbars completely.)
I speedread. Recently someone on lobste.rs expressed incredulity I'd
read a 5000 word article in 5 minutes. For me that is not even
hurrying. Menus are fast.
Most people can't read that fast, and can't memorise a complex menu
layout. So for most people, the horrible ribbon introduced in Office
2007 is easier. They can't read fast, they lack comprehension, and so
they search, every time, looking at groups of icons and then within
them.
For youngsters this is preferable. For grumpy old gits like me, it's
worse. *MUCH* worse. I find Office 2007 & later unusable. I can't even
put the big fat waste of space vertical.
So, I keep some old copies of Office around, and I use LibreOffice and
other tools. For now, I have the choice.
But modern versions of Windows and Linux are removing menu bars, which
are an old-people tool, and replacing them with icons and visual
controls. For me, idiot lights, for idiots.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
6:10 p.m.
On Jan 23, 2023, at 12:56 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 00:00, Ali via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Clearly what we have in this discussion is "different strokes for different
folks".
I once had a laptop with a small trackball in the front edge. It was somewhat tolerable
on the desk, not so much on the lap.
I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser stick" thingie in the middle of
the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and demanded some other model, any
model so long as it didn't have that device.
Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are lots of
opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have different
preferences.
Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still around? I
remember a few people around the office that had one. I also remember seeing all the air
traffic controller stations at the local FAA control center equipped with such trackballs.
That made some sense, it allows the operator to work in a confined space without having
to worry about keeping a clear desk surface. That was before touchpads were invented,
1990s I think.
I am the exact opposite. I love my track point.
Agreed.
Trackpads are tolerable, but I preferred the era of trackballs. But if
my laptop is on my actual lap, I turn off the trackpad and just use
the trackpoint. Easier, less arm and hand movement, keeps your hands
on the keyboard, and generally less hassle. I find it interesting watching people using trackpads.
Most don't know
*how* to use them effectively.
The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large
pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your
fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the
finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or
toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right
movements.
Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it
by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but
acceptably.
Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only if I run
Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity setting.
paul
6:19 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 10:10 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Personally, I like trackpads. But my wife doesn't. And clearly there are
lots of opinions. Pick what you like, don't be surprised if others have
different preferences.
I love my Kensington Expert Mouse, which is actually a trackball. It and
a Happy Hacking Pro keyboard fits onto my Humanscale 4G keyboard tray. It
was a conscious effort to limit the amount of arm movement.
Quite a few of my Linux colleagues use no mouse at all, all keyboard
shortcuts. My wife cannot operate the trackball at all but it's all
down to ramp up effort which is why I've never been able to adapt to one of
the ergonomic split keyboards or Emacs :)
Tony
Are large trackballs (with balls the size of a golfball or larger) still
around? I remember a few people around the office that had one. I also
remember seeing all the air traffic controller stations at the local FAA
control center equipped with such trackballs. That made some sense, it
allows the operator to work in a confined space without having to worry
about keeping a clear desk surface. That was before touchpads were
invented, 1990s I think.
I find it interesting watching people using
trackpads. Most don't know
*how* to use them effectively.
The core trick is that you should only move your fingertip for large
pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your
fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the
finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or
toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right
movements.
Few seem to know this. If you don't know what you're doing, and do it
by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but
acceptably.
Interesting. It doesn't seem to apply to my Mac touchpad. Or maybe only
if I run Linux on that hardware, that seems to have a different sensitivity
setting.
paul
10:39 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I also once had an IBM laptop with the "eraser
stick" thingie in the
middle of the keyboard. I turned it back in after a few weeks and
demanded some other model, any model so long as it didn't have that
device.
IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work well.
Not everybody can get used to it.
And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:20 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 2:39 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
IF you can get used to it, the clit-mouse can work
well.
Not everybody can get used to it.
And, until you do, it is extraordinarily frustrating.
It's one of those "is the dress gold or black" kinda things. I cannot
stand them, and think they are the worst pointer design device ever devised
by (an obviously deranged) man.
Sellam
9:59 p.m.
On 2023-01-23 18:56, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
I find it interesting watching people using trackpads.
Most don't know
*how* to use them effectively.
Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor
have I ever seen anybody do that. And I have seen many people
complaining about how useless they are...
The core trick is that you should only move your
fingertip for large
pointer movements, and for small precision movement, keep your
fingertip stationary on the trackpad and _roll_. Increase the
finger-to-laptop angle for vertical movement (pointer away from you or
toward you) and rotate your finger along its axis for small left/right
movements.
Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to this extremely
important information.
Few seem to know this. If you don't know what
you're doing, and do it
by trial and error, then trackpads kinda sorta work, not great but
acceptably.
Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate them! I hate them
with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either
by hardware or by software.
But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years,
thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this
freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for
a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while
browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites).
Thank you!
27 Jan
27 Jan
2:28 p.m.
On Mon, 23 Jan 2023 at 21:59, Angel M Alganza via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, nobody teaches that... At least, nobody has taught me that, nor
have I ever seen anybody do that.
In the early days, Apple did when it first introduced them, and some
of the 1st PC laptops with them played little tutorial videos.
But that was last century now.
And I have seen many people
complaining about how useless they are...
Me too, but more seem to like than dislike them. :-(
And they are solid-state and take no maintenance or cleaning, so they
save manufacturers money. :-(
Also, they support gestures, for people weaned on touchscreens, so I
think their grip will not easily be broken.
I dislike gestures and turn them off. As I type, on a circa 14 year
old Thinkpad, which got a RAM upgrade yesterday, my trackpad is
disabled and I have only a CLIT mouse. (Centrally Located Input Tool,
of course.)
Now, for the first time in my life, have I access to
this extremely
important information.
:-D
Acceptably by which measurement? I hate them! I hate
them! I hate them
with all my might! I disable them in all laptops when possible, either
by hardware or by software.
But I'm trying one right now and, for the first time in many years,
thanks to this very email of yours, I'm seeing the point of this
freaking thing. I might even start to use it now instead of reaching for
a mouse when keyboard shortcuts don't cut it (almost exclusively while
browsing some very badly designed or heavily graphics loaded web sites).
Thank you!
Oh, well, great. I am very happy I was able to help!
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
UK: (+44) 7939-087884 ~ Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
30 Jan
30 Jan
6:03 p.m.
I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view on the mouse is correct. Much of
Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never designed for (only)
use by youth.
Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch targets needing
to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never want to take your hands off the
keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just sit in the middle of the graph of
connivence/precision.
..
--
Kenton A. Hoover
kenton(a)nemersonhoover.org
shibumi(a)mail.marchordie.org
+1 415 830 5843
On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>rg>, wrote:
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a product
of Xerox was intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled people
with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux fanatics, it's an
indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint where I favored trackballs. But
it's a toss up as to which is more natural and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain
applications.
Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads superior, make that
way superior to that horrific track point used on old Thinkpads. But again that'a me.
Touch screens, my hatred for them grows almost daily. They have their place. And for
portable devices they're largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least
had the option of a mouse or something close.
Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects of the newer
tech just await refinement?
6:58 p.m.
Touchscreen with a 'real' stylus.
On Mon, Jan 30, 2023 at 1:10 PM Kenton A. Hoover via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I don't think that portrayal of Xerox's view
on the mouse is correct. Much
of Interlisp and all of Smalltalk was mouse-based and Interlisp was never
designed for (only) use by youth.
Trackpads are fine except for detail work. Touchscreens are bound by touch
targets needing to be finger-sized. The trackpoint works well if you never
want to take your hands off the keyboard at all. The mouse/trackball just
sit in the middle of the graph of connivence/precision.
..
--
Kenton A. Hoover
kenton(a)nemersonhoover.org
shibumi(a)mail.marchordie.org
+1 415 830 5843
On Jan 22, 2023, 05:14 -0800, Chris via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>rg>,
wrote:
Originally as I understand it the mouse as a
product of Xerox was
intended not so much for general use but to aid youngins and disabled
people with their usage. And despite the never-mousers, predominantly linux
fanatics, it's an indispensable tool for nearly everyone. There was a stint
where I favored trackballs. But it's a toss up as to which is more natural
and faster. Each may excel in cwrtain applications.
Then there's the touch screen (and touch pad). I find touch pads
superior, make that way superior to that horrific track point used on old
Thinkpads. But again that'a me. Touch screens, my hatred for them grows
almost daily. They have their place. And for portable devices they're
largely the only game in town. But I often wish I at least had the option
of a mouse or something close.
Is this an example of where older tech beats the new tech? Or do aspects
of the newer tech just await refinement?
661
days inactive
669
days old
16 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Ali -
Angel M Alganza -
ben -
Chuck Guzis -
Fred Cisin -
Jon Elson -
Kenton A. Hoover -
Liam Proven -
Mike Stein -
Paul Koning -
Sellam Abraham -
skogkatt007＠yahoo.com -
Tony Jones