23 Oct
2024
23 Oct
'24
6:50 p.m.
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
23 Oct
23 Oct
7:22 p.m.
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media,
Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not
seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
"Early Visionary of Social Media"
It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a
forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even
there, only about its use on CBBS:
"In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer
files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
. . .
"For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:40 p.m.
Author is a general assignment reporter. Not young judging from his mugshot. Wouldn’t
expect him to cover XM modem too much as that’s for very technical people and wouldn’t be
relevant to his article. If David Pogue wrote the article then perhaps
All in all a very good article what did you say?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social
Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to have never
heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about any computer to computer
connections other than internet. He does not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and
that solely because it "resembles Facebook".
"Early Visionary of Social Media"
It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a forerunner
of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even there, only
about its use on CBBS:
"In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer files across
phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
. . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
7:57 p.m.
Phone caught the “What did you say” phrase. Please disregard!
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:40, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Author is a general assignment reporter. Not young judging from his mugshot. Wouldn’t
expect him to cover XM modem too much as that’s for very technical people and wouldn’t be
relevant to his article. If David Pogue wrote the article then perhaps
All in all a very good article what did you say?
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 12:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
>>
>>
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
>
> Thank you for sharing that.
>
>
> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to have never
heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about any computer to computer
connections other than internet. He does not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and
that solely because it "resembles Facebook".
> "Early Visionary of Social Media"
>
>
> It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS ("a
forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
>
> A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and even there,
only about its use on CBBS:
>
> "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer files
across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
> . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:08 p.m.
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk
wrote:
I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is clearly
unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking before the '90s, and they
were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary (in
the '70s) computer culture either from a business or hobbyist perspective.
I suppose that I might have expected something more of a very high profile
newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this is a "drive-by" piece for
the
author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of the requirements that might
be asked of the dilettante readership, and it's on to the next surface
level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact.
-Henry
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social
Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not
seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
8:15 p.m.
I have to respectfully disagree.
This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete history of his
life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major newspaper where space is
limited. I think the author did do some rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward
Christiansen‘s brother for remembrances and information.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 13:09, Henry Bent via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is clearly
unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking before the '90s, and they
were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary (in
the '70s) computer culture either from a business or hobbyist perspective.
I suppose that I might have expected something more of a very high profile
newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this is a "drive-by" piece for
the
author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of the requirements that might
be asked of the dilettante readership, and it's on to the next surface
level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact.
-Henry
On Wed,
23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not
seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
8:20 p.m.
The author did their best to pad the piece up to length by doing the least
amount of work possible - interview immediate family and the "standout
names" who responded in a timely manner - and then that's it. On to the
next one.
-Henry
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:15, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree.
This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete
history of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a
major newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some
rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen‘s brother for
remembrances and information.
Sent from my iPhone
clearly
On Oct 23, 2024, at 13:09, Henry Bent via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 at 16:00, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
>>
>>
>
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
>
> Thank you for sharing that.
>
>
> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
to
have
never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does not
seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
I cannot help but agree. This is a piece written by someone who is
unfamiliar with any sort of computer networking
before the '90s, and they
were obviously not willing to do any sort of research into contemporary
(in
the '70s) computer culture either from a
business or hobbyist
perspective.
I suppose that I might have expected something
more of a very high
profile
newspaper, but at the same time I'm sure this
is a "drive-by" piece for
the
author - checks all the boxes, fulfills all of
the requirements that
might
be asked of the dilettante readership, and
it's on to the next surface
level treatment of someone who probably made a real impact.
-Henry
9:09 p.m.
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree.
This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete history of his
life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major newspaper where space is
limited. I think the author did do some rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward
Christiansen‘s brother for remembrances and information.
We can get along without agreeing :-)
If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point,
it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of
Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making
cars. :-)
Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy.
CBBS WAS extremely important and significant.
But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:23 p.m.
I do understand that opinion in and i agree. It’s that having worked for major newspapers
for 35 years, i know the way stories are written and how much work goes into them and how
much editing and fact checking is done. There is only so much space for words and can’t be
covered, so the writer and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem, while important,
is not something the average reader would know or remember much about, but a lot of people
would remember BBS systems since they were all over the news back then.
If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what accomplishments
would you emphasize?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree.
This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete history of his
life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major newspaper where space is
limited. I think the author did do some rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward
Christiansen‘s brother for remembrances and information.
We can get along without agreeing :-)
If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point,
it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of Kingsford
charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars. :-)
Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy.
CBBS WAS extremely important and significant.
But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:26 p.m.
One last thing…
Most news organizations have a death file for famous people.
Their obits have already been written.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:23, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
I do understand that opinion in and i agree. It’s that having worked for major
newspapers for 35 years, i know the way stories are written and how much work goes into
them and how much editing and fact checking is done. There is only so much space for words
and can’t be covered, so the writer and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem,
while important, is not something the average reader would know or remember much about,
but a lot of people would remember BBS systems since they were all over the news back
then.
If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what accomplishments
would you emphasize?
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
>> I have to respectfully disagree.
>> This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete history of
his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major newspaper where
space is limited. I think the author did do some rather deep investigation. He did talk to
Ward Christiansen‘s brother for remembrances and information.
>
> We can get along without agreeing :-)
>
> If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point,
> it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of Kingsford
charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars. :-)
>
> Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy.
> CBBS WAS extremely important and significant.
> But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:56 p.m.
Good point
I don't see much impact of that on this one. Other than editing in his
brother's statement that it was a heart attack, I don't see anything
obvious in this about whether it was pre-written long ago, or freshly
written. (XMODEM was already extremely popular 40 years ago)
Would the fact that NYT took 10 days before publishing it be an
indication that it was NOT previously written? I would have thought that
the reason for a "death file" was so that an obituary could immediately
follow the news.
I don't know much of anything about Edson de Castro, other than Data
General Nova.
But I like to think that if I were tasked to write about him, I would ask
around [to people such as you? :-)] and try to find out more about the
other things that he did (such as working on PDP-8).
But, I don't have your newspaper experience, so maybe that would be
unrealistic.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S wrote:
> One last thing…
> Most news organizations have a death file for famous people.
> Their obits have already been written.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:23, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I do understand that opinion in and i agree. It’s that having worked for major
newspapers for 35 years, i know the way stories are written and how much work goes into
them and how much editing and fact checking is done. There is only so much space for words
and can’t be covered, so the writer and copyeditor have to trim the article. Xmodem,
while important, is not something the average reader would know or remember much about,
but a lot of people would remember BBS systems since they were all over the news back
then.
>> If you were to write an obit of Edwin deCastro, who recently died, what
accomplishments would you emphasize?
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 14:10, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
>>>> I have to respectfully disagree.
>>>> This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete
history of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a major newspaper
where space is limited. I think the author did do some rather deep investigation. He did
talk to Ward Christiansen‘s brother for remembrances and information.
>>>
>>> We can get along without agreeing :-)
>>>
>>> If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point,
>>> it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of
Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making cars. :-)
>>>
>>> Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy.
>>> CBBS WAS extremely important and significant.
>>> But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:10 p.m.
for the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary. and
something they can relate to
people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meaningful for
computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. specialized devices called
each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedicated protocols for those devices.
<pre>--Carey</pre>
11:17 p.m.
Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start from scratch.
Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of interest. I’d
assume that’s how NYT even knew about Ward. It’s interesting to me that they bothered to
put up his obit as he is mildly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the
chatter about him and decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that’s when they
had enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science or
technology page which is not run every day.
I wouldn’t be asked because i’m not a source for anything.
I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer discord.
Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually for someone
older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nicholson, Cher, etc. They are
updated from time to time with new items.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
for the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary. and
something they can relate to
people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meaningful for
computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. specialized devices called
each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedicated protocols for those
devices.
<pre>--Carey</pre>
24 Oct
24 Oct
11:38 a.m.
Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up
obits of people of interest. I’d assume that’s how NYT even knew about Ward. It’s
interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mildly famous even to
tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and decided based upon that. 10
days might be because that’s when they had enough space in the newspaper or maybe they
wanted it to run in the science or technology page which is not run every day.
Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York Times
internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick
this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died.
I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate
old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are
serious techies.
As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica.
The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate.
Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the
time. I can see the link between them.
I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the
Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper
obituary.
On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 10:55 PM Wayne S via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start from
scratch.
Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up
obits of people of interest. I’d assume that’s how NYT even knew about Ward. It’s
interesting to me that they bothered to put up his obit as he is mildly famous even to
tech folks. They might have seen the chatter about him and decided based upon that. 10
days might be because that’s when they had enough space in the newspaper or maybe they
wanted it to run in the science or technology page which is not run every day.
>
I wouldn’t be asked because i’m not a source for anything.
> I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer discord.
> Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually for
someone older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nicholson, Cher, etc.
They are updated from time to time with new items.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> >
> > for the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary.
and something they can relate to
> >
> > people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meaningful
for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. specialized devices
called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedicated protocols for those
devices.
> >
> > <pre>--Carey</pre>
4:14 p.m.
I thought it was a good article too. Christian, what do you do at the Times?
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 24, 2024, at 04:38, Christian Liendo
<cliendo(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of interest. I’d
assume that’s how NYT even knew about Ward. It’s interesting to me that they bothered to
put up his obit as he is mildly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the
chatter about him and decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that’s when they
had enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science or
technology page which is not run every day.
Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of the New York Times
internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick
this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died.
I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate
old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are
serious techies.
As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica.
The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate.
Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the
time. I can see the link between them.
I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the
Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper
obituary.
> On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 10:55 PM Wayne S via cctalk
> <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> Fred, probably there was no death file for Ward so the writer had to start from
scratch.
> Associated Press has a deaths wire where they put up obits of people of interest. I’d
assume that’s how NYT even knew about Ward. It’s interesting to me that they bothered to
put up his obit as he is mildly famous even to tech folks. They might have seen the
chatter about him and decided based upon that. 10 days might be because that’s when they
had enough space in the newspaper or maybe they wanted it to run in the science or
technology page which is not run every day.
> I wouldn’t be asked because i’m not a source for anything.
> I only knew about Edwins passing from other people on the Classic Computer discord.
> Death files have fact checked items and a summary obituary written usually for
someone older like both Clintons, George Bush, Donald Trump, Jack Nicholson, Cher, etc.
They are updated from time to time with new items.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 15:10, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> for the "unwashed masses", cbbs was like a blog, and revolutionary.
and something they can relate to
>>
>> people send photos on emails, but file transfer with xmodem was only meaningful
for computer nerds. business did file transfer more like faxing. specialized devices
called each other, maybe even manually answered, and used dedicated protocols for those
devices.
>>
>> <pre>--Carey</pre>
5:08 p.m.
Another reference: Randy Cassingham's "Honorary UnSubscribe" page
https://honoraryunsubscribe.com/ward-christensen/
-mm- (folding it into this thread even though it's not related
to the NY Times)
5:46 p.m.
On 10/24/2024 11:14 AM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
I thought it was a good article too.
To add to the chorus, I concur. I think the writer did an excellent job
capturing some of the cool pieces of Ward's impact on the tech world and
made it relatable to the general public. We should encourage writers
like this one in composing pieces like this.
Jim
7 p.m.
I went and read the obit to see what all the hubbubb is aboot. Seems like
a nice tribute to me. Naming CBBS as the progenitor to "Reddit, TikTok,
Facebook and YouTube, as well as countless internet file-sharing services"
is a Big Deal and a high honor (although perhaps not entirely accurate).
Right in the middle of the obituary I find this:
*"How The Times decides who gets an obituary: There is no formula, scoring
system or checklist in determining the news value of a life. We
investigate, research and ask around before settling on our subjects. If
you know of someone who might be a candidate for a Times obituary, please
suggest it here."*
This part made me chuckle:
*"Mr. Suess suggested they call the new system “the Computer Elites’
Communication Project,” or C.E.C.,"*
I love the grandiosity.
Sellam
P.S. Ward was dead 2 days before his body was found, which makes me sad. A
reminder to check on your older friends right away if you don't hear from
them when you should've.
7:17 p.m.
They must’ve inserted it after i read the obit, because it wasn’t there. Maybe Christian
made them aware of the fuss.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 24, 2024, at 12:01, Sellam Abraham via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I went and read the obit to see what all the hubbubb is aboot. Seems like
a nice tribute to me. Naming CBBS as the progenitor to "Reddit, TikTok,
Facebook and YouTube, as well as countless internet file-sharing services"
is a Big Deal and a high honor (although perhaps not entirely accurate).
Right in the middle of the obituary I find this:
*"How The Times decides who gets an obituary: There is no formula, scoring
system or checklist in determining the news value of a life. We
investigate, research and ask around before settling on our subjects. If
you know of someone who might be a candidate for a Times obituary, please
suggest it here."*
This part made me chuckle:
*"Mr. Suess suggested they call the new system “the Computer Elites’
Communication Project,” or C.E.C.,"*
I love the grandiosity.
Sellam
P.S. Ward was dead 2 days before his body was found, which makes me sad. A
reminder to check on your older friends right away if you don't hear from
them when you should've.
8:43 p.m.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:
Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one of
the New York Times
internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping someone would pick
this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died.
I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate
old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are
serious techies.
As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica.
The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to relate.
Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the social systems of the
time. I can see the link between them.
I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the
Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper
obituary.
. . . and, did you hear about first on this list?
if so,
NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!)
you heard it from this list,
I did the first post about it on this list
I heard about it on another list,
the person who posted about it on that list doesn't remember source
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
8:58 p.m.
After all of this all I want to know is if an autopsy was done or not?
<DUCKS> ;)
-Ali
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Cisin via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2024 1:44 PM
To: Christian Liendo via cctalk
Cc: Fred Cisin
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Christian Liendo via cctalk wrote:
Actually I posted the ArsTechnica article in one
of the New York
Times
internal chat channels on Oct 16th, I was hoping
someone would pick
this up. I did the same when Chuck Peddle died.
I work for the Times and there are a few people here who appreciate
old technology. I don't have any pull, but some of the writers are
serious techies.
As for the article, this is the New York Times and not ArsTechnica.
The readers are different and the writers have to find ways to
relate.
Depending on your perspective, BBSes were the
social systems of the
time. I can see the link between them.
I thought it was well written and regardless of what you think of the
Times, it is nice to see Ward Christensen remembered with a proper
obituary.
. . . and, did you hear about first on this list?
if so,
NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!)
you heard it from this list,
I did the first post about it on this list
I heard about it on another list,
the person who posted about it on that list doesn't remember source
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:04 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 5:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
. . . and, did you hear about first on this list?
if so,
NYT heard it from you, (THANK YOU!)
I read about it on the list and I shared the link to my company's chant channel.
I don't know if what I did made it happen but it did and I'm satisfied.
We do have people in the Times that care.
It's sad we don't have John Markoff anymore, he cares a lot.I had good
talks with him.
8:56 a.m.
Sad to hear about the confirmation and circumstances of his passing. I
had been hoping it wasn't true (a different Ward or something), but I see
now a week ago Als Geek Lab already put a tribute video up (and included a
section about xmodem). And of course the NYT article now.
I hope any surviving family will keep in mind that the CBBS equipment is
historical - don't toss it! (I think it is a "homebrew IMSAI 8080" base).
When I spoke with Ward last year, one of the questions I had was whether he
still had that equipment - and he did say Yes. I showed him a picture, to
make sure we were talking about the same thing (it's at the bottom of the
1978 column in the final version of my "domesticating the computer"
poster). It's possible he mis-remembered or I misunderstood, but I'd like
to think it's still sitting there next to his chair.
I mentioned previously here that at one VCF last year, I asked Ward to sign
my ComputerLib book. He also signed a poster for my daughter. I'm not
big into sports or PopCulture, but I always thought it would be more
meaningful to get autographs from famous scientists and engineers.
I'm not sure if images can (or should) be shared here (attachments) - and
it's just a small thing really. But if anyone interested, here's an image
of his signing at the bottom of this page:
https://voidstar.blog/2024/10/24/ward-christensen-brief-notes/
A while back I recall trying to find the CBBS source code. I don't think
the original-original is still around, the earliest was maybe a 1979 or
1980 update to it.
Well - I think I have my topic now for VCF next year.... not about BBS's.
But I'm thinking maybe to cover more about the ComputerLib book itself
(which I only very lightly touched on earlier this year). It has no Table
of Contents, nor an index, so it really is a bit of a hard read (that, and
my eyes vs its font) - eveni digitally scanning it is tough. Mine's one of
the later 1987 revised editions. As someone mentioned, it probably has a
section about Ward in there - I'll keep looking through it.
- SteveL (v*)
On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 4:10 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree.
This is an obituary for a person who has died, which is not a complete
history of his life. The articles are rather lengthy, for an obituary in a
major newspaper where space is limited. I think the author did do some
rather deep investigation. He did talk to Ward Christiansen‘s brother for
remembrances and information.
We can get along without agreeing :-)
If you will pardon some exaggeration to make clear my point,
it is somewhat like going into detail about Henry Ford being co-founder of
Kingsford charcoal, and then only two mentions, in passing, of making
cars. :-)
Yes, I admit that is an exaggerated analogy.
CBBS WAS extremely important and significant.
But, I think that XMODEM had even more long-term impact.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:39 a.m.
On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976.
bill'
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social
Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does
not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
"Early Visionary of Social Media"
It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS
("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and
even there, only about its use on CBBS:
"In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer
files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
. . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
2:36 a.m.
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Kindest regards,
Doug Jackson
em: doug(a)doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 11:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk
wrote:
Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976.
bill'
Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social
Media, Dies at 78
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Thank you for sharing that.
The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does
not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
"resembles Facebook".
"Early Visionary of Social Media"
It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS
("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and
even there, only about its use on CBBS:
"In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer
files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
. . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
2:46 a.m.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Very slightly before that (not by much), Xenix (Unix without the
trademark royalties, and peddled by MICROS~1) could run on a 80286.
Bill Gates said that the 80286 was "brain dead". (possibly due to the
difficulty of switching back and forth to "protected mode")
The 80386, and even the 80386SX, was a very welcome step.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:35 p.m.
On 10/23/2024 10:46 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
And yet, Minix ran on the 8088.
bill
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Very slightly before that (not by much), Xenix (Unix without the
trademark royalties, and peddled by MICROS~1) could run on a 80286.
Bill Gates said that the 80286 was "brain dead". (possibly due to the
difficulty of switching back and forth to "protected mode") The 80386,
and even the 80386SX, was a very welcome step.
11:42 p.m.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
And yet, Minix ran on the 8088.
One system called "Minix", from Digital Systems House was based on AT&T
Unix code, but I haven't found out anything about it.
Much more popularly known as "Minix", was a Unix-like operating system
written by Andrew S. Tannenbaum, the person usually credited with the
quotation:
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes
hurtling down the highway."
Linus Torvalds employed a monolithic kernel instead of a microkernel, as
Tannenbaum's Minix used. Tannenbaum and Torvalds argued about that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanenbaum%E2%80%93Torvalds_debate
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
25 Oct
25 Oct
2:04 a.m.
On 2024-10-24 4:35 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
And yet, Minix ran on the 8088.
NO the PC, and even then it was developed under a
UNIX emulator.
Some where I read, wen ported to the PC it would randomly crash.
This was later found to a case of undocumented irq service routine
for memory parity errors.
bill
2:30 p.m.
On 10/24/2024 10:04 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 2024-10-24 4:35 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
The original IBM PC on which Minix ran (I still have my
copies of the original) was an Intel 8088.
bill
And yet, Minix ran on the 8088.
NO the PC, and even then it was developed under a
UNIX emulator.
Some where I read, wen ported to the PC it would randomly crash.
This was later found to a case of undocumented irq service routine
for memory parity errors.
24 Oct
24 Oct
2:57 a.m.
On 2024-10-23 8:36 p.m., Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Kindest regards,
Doug Jackson
em: doug(a)doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878
XMODEM and BBS's were nice for the times, but for us people down on the
farm here 6&*(((&^%%&* DANG CROW's on phone line again (*0^&^
did not have much impact with with the high price of long distance phone
lines and any dial up service. The fact that most BBS's only had one or
two lines did not help the matter at 110 baud.
What was important it stated the concept of networking data, for the
general public, and public access.
1 Nov
1 Nov
8:33 p.m.
UNIX might have been unobtainium in your home, but a lot of BBS's
used UUCP to get email and USENET connectivity, and a huge amount
of students had modem access to an UNIX computer at their university.
Julf
On 10/24/24 04:36, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Kindest regards,
Doug Jackson
em: doug(a)doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 11:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
>>>
>>>
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
>>
>> Thank you for sharing that.
>>
>>
>> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
>> to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
>> about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He does
>> not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because it
>> "resembles Facebook".
>> "Early Visionary of Social Media"
>>
>>
>> It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS
>> ("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
>>
>> A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and
>> even there, only about its use on CBBS:
>>
>> "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer
>> files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
>> . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
>>
>
> Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976.
>
> bill'
>
9:04 p.m.
On Fri, Nov 01, 2024 at 09:33:31PM +0100, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
UNIX might have been unobtainium in your home, but a
lot of BBS's
used UUCP to get email and USENET connectivity, and a huge amount
of students had modem access to an UNIX computer at their university.
Sure. I ran a BBS on Microport Unix (80286) in the mid-80s. And had
usenet account at a small company on an Onyx system as early as about
1981.
mm
(and had people running uucp on MSDOS systems in the late 80s)
2 Nov
2 Nov
12:15 a.m.
For a few year VMS was the OS of the "internet". I remember wondering in
1991 or 1992 if UNIX would still be around by 2000
On Fri, Nov 1, 2024, 4:42 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
UNIX might have been unobtainium in your home, but a
lot of BBS's
used UUCP to get email and USENET connectivity, and a huge amount
of students had modem access to an UNIX computer at their university.
Julf
On 10/24/24 04:36, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Kindest regards,
Doug Jackson
em: doug(a)doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 11:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
>>>
>>>
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
>>
>> Thank you for sharing that.
>>
>>
>> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
>> to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
>> about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He
does
>> not seem to know about anything except
CBBS,and that solely because it
>> "resembles Facebook".
>> "Early Visionary of Social Media"
>>
>>
>> It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS
>> ("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
>>
>> A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and
>> even there, only about its use on CBBS:
>>
>> "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending computer
>> files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
>> . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
>>
>
> Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976.
>
> bill'
>
12:33 a.m.
And before that, TENEX/TOPS-20 on the DECSYSTEM-20. But that's slightly
before my time. (By the time I entered the CMU Ph.D. program, very few
DECSYSTEMs were left, being replaced by 11/780s and then a plethora of
microvaxen. Running VMS, but also BSD 4.1 with lots of 4.2 patches.)
VMS certainly was better engineered... but you NEEDED those big blue
binders. It took me several days with those binders to figure out how to
get uncooked keyboard input.
On Fri, Nov 1, 2024 at 5:16 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
For a few year VMS was the OS of the
"internet". I remember wondering in
1991 or 1992 if UNIX would still be around by 2000
On Fri, Nov 1, 2024, 4:42 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
it
UNIX might have been unobtainium in your home,
but a lot of BBS's
used UUCP to get email and USENET connectivity, and a huge amount
of students had modem access to an UNIX computer at their university.
Julf
On 10/24/24 04:36, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/21/technology/ward-christensen-dead.html?un…
Yes, UUCP was literally a thing, but UNIX was
unobtanium in the early
computing eral - The world of the University Minicomputer.
It certainly wasn't even vaguely accessible by a hobbyist running a
Z80 or 6800 in the late 70's.
I vividly remember being able to take home a NEC 80386 computer from
my day job (I worked for a computer store selling NEC machines) during
the Christmas shutdown between 1987/1988 - It had SCO Xenix installed
and a new graphical system (To SCO) called 'XWindows' Unheard of - I
did a heap of learning.
That was probably the point where a UNIX like operating system became
accessible to people. Then 386BSD arrived (1993) and Linux came (1991)
into the scene and suddenly unix was everywhere - I still remember my
first stack of installation media for freeBSD - something like 10
1.4MB floppies for the Binaries, and another 10 for the source files.
So - yea, UUCP was around, but it wasn't alive in hobbyist circles.
Kindest regards,
Doug Jackson
em: doug(a)doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 11:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 10/23/2024 3:22 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> Ward Christensen, Early Visionary of Social Media, Dies at 78
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you for sharing that.
>>>
>>>
>>> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user,
seemed
>>
to have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
>> about any computer to computer connections other than internet. He
does
>>> not seem to know about anything except CBBS,and that solely because
>>> "resembles Facebook".
>>> "Early Visionary of Social Media"
>>>
>>>
>>> It is an adequately detailed story of his life, and mostly about CBBS
>>> ("a forerunner of Reddit, TikTok and Facebook")
>>>
>>> A dozen paragraphs about CBBS, but XMODEM barely rated a mention, and
>>> even there, only about its use on CBBS:
>>>
>>> "In 1977, he developed a protocol, called XMODEM, for sending
computer
>>
files across phone lines; it was later used on C.B.B.S."
>> . . . "For decades, his license plate read, XMODEM."
>>
>
> Which had already been done with UUCP in 1976.
>
> bill'
>
1:59 p.m.
On 11/2/2024 5:26 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
On 11/2/24 01:15, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
While there was UUCP for VMS I think the majority of networked
VMS boxes were on BITNET rather than UUCPnet.
bill
For a few year VMS was the OS of the
"internet". I remember wondering in
1991 or 1992 if UNIX would still be around by 2000
From what I can recall, there were a lot of VAXen on the net, but
the vast majority was running BSD.
1:32 a.m.
On 11/1/24 13:33, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote:
UNIX might have been unobtainium in your home, but a
lot of BBS's
used UUCP to get email and USENET connectivity, and a huge amount
of students had modem access to an UNIX computer at their university.
Back in the day, I used a package called UUPC for email.
--Chuck
7:17 p.m.
On 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote:
Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ?
That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could
log on.
The author,
presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-)
7:24 p.m.
I did compuserve. It was about $10 a month. They had a lot of local numbers so you didn’t
have to pay Toll charges. Never had any problems logging in except during a “construction
event”.
Meaning some backhoe operator sliced a cable in the street somewhere. No graphics, just
text. Used Archie a lot to find stuff.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 24, 2024, at 12:18, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote:
Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ?
That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could
log on.
The
author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-)
31 Oct
31 Oct
12:06 p.m.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 20:24, Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
They had a lot of local numbers so you didn’t have to
pay Toll charges.
Only in the USA, or maybe N America.
Most of the world, AFAIK, we all paid for all calls, local and
long-distance. Local was cheaper but it was by the minute which really
killed off BBS type activity.
I had to explain this to Netscape Inc on a transatlantic call in 1996.
They had no idea.
It persisted until the very late 1990s in the UK and Ireland.
--
Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven(a)cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lproven(a)gmail.com
Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven
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1 Nov
1 Nov
4:36 a.m.
On 10/31/24 07:06, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 at 20:24, Wayne S via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
The Bell system in the 70s had tolls where all but
nearly local CO calls
were local toll rates.
The Kansas City, Mo area from the 60s had mandated since it spanned a
state line (Missouri and Kansas) that there be a city wide rate to call
in about a 20 mile radius w/o toll if you paid a small fee. But some
people I knew in the 60s friends of the family couldn't pay that for
just the few calls made, so they had to pay tolls to call us from about
15 miles away.
by the 80s there were long distance carriers who had toll plans which
beside long distance (continental US) being flat rate eliminated local
tolls as well.
I know up to about 84 the Bell system was trying to get you to pay for
business accounts, but ended in that time frame at least in the LA area
after the system split up and the local "baby Bell" eliminated local
toll calls for businesses.
My world std (Software Tool and Die) account which was the first in the
US to offer a unix shell account and email had a dialup service that is
still in existence with local non toll numbers today to get onto the
network via dialup.
They offer 56k dialup now.
I dialed in to a TSO in Columbia, Missouri, and a Multics system upto
the late 90s, even after I'd shifted from BBS dialup to internet email
and Usenet.
They had a lot of local numbers so you didn’t
have to pay Toll charges.
Only in the USA, or maybe N America.
Most of the world, AFAIK, we all paid for all calls, local and
long-distance. Local was cheaper but it was by the minute which really
killed off BBS type activity. I had to explain this to Netscape Inc on a
transatlantic call in 1996.
They had no idea.
It persisted until the very late 1990s in the UK and Ireland.
thanks
Jim
5:13 a.m.
New subject: Dial Up was Re: Ward Christensen NY Times Obituary
My world std (Software Tool and Die) account which was
the first in the
US to offer a unix shell account and email had a dialup service that is
still in existence with local non toll numbers today to get onto the
network via dialup.
Huh... This is pretty cool. I just checked them out and they have a number of
"local" numbers to me (ignoring the fact that all of the US is a local talk on
my POTS plan) including one w/ in a 5 mile radius. Called them and actually got the
soothing tones of a modem. I may just have to get subscription to be able to dial in for
nostalgia sake.... And everyone could use an extra shell account.
-Ali
24 Oct
24 Oct
7:32 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 01:17:57PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote:
On 2024-10-24 11:49 a.m., Joseph S. Barrera III via
cctalk wrote:
Was all that stuff like $10 a hour + long distance charges ?
That was a good reason to ignore it back then, if you could
log on.
CompuServe (and The Source) typically utilized their own and Tymnet dialup pools spread
all across the country,
that got you onto the packet switched network of the day. They had day rates/night rates,
since the main reason for the Tymnet packet switched networks were paying business
customers by day,
leaving night time open up for hobbiests.
So, no long distance charges in major markets.
But they did tend to get expensive hourly rates to pay for the packet network, and the
main/miniframe time that they ran on. The Source was probably around that price range. I
remember
switching to Compuserve to get cheaper per-hour rates.
The
author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed to
have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-) 
8 p.m.
Had a contracting job in Italy late 1989. Introduced the client to CompuServe. I was part
of Team Toshiba at the time. We used the local dial up number but had problems. Somewhere
along the line it was discovered we could somehow connect directly to the packet network.
We started doing that. We stopped when the first bill arrived. It was 5 digits USD. 😊
9:48 p.m.
On 10/24/24 13:00, Donald Whittemore via cctalk wrote:
Had a contracting job in Italy late 1989. Introduced
the client to CompuServe. I was part of Team Toshiba at the time. We used the local dial
up number but had problems. Somewhere along the line it was discovered we could somehow
connect directly to the packet network. We started doing that. We stopped when the first
bill arrived. It was 5 digits USD. 😊
How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc.
Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for
use by subscribers?
--Chuck
10:47 p.m.
Impressive claims were made about station wagon full
of tapes hurtling
down the highway.
That was Jim Gray's favorite way of illustrating the difference between
bandwidth and latency when discussing e.g. high speed networking.
Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB
micro-SDXC cards.
Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm × 20 mm × 1.4 mm = 0.000602 liters
Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft = 4097.4477 liters
# TB = # cards = 4097.4477 / 0.000602 = 6,806,392 TB = 6.5 EB
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size
[2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 3:26 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc.
> >
> > Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for
> > use by subscribers?
>
Impressive claims were made about station wagon full
of tapes hurtling
> down the highway.
>
11:59 p.m.
On 10/24/2024 5:47 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote:
Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB
micro-SDXC cards.
Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm × 20 mm × 1.4 mm = 0.000602 liters
Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft = 4097.4477 liters
# TB = # cards = 4097.4477 / 0.000602 = 6,806,392 TB = 6.5 EB
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size
[2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban
<chuckle/>
Thanks not only for the analogy update, but kudos for actually doing the
math.
tips hat
Jim
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:35 a.m.
Thanks! Oh, heck, I forgot to compute the maximum bandwidth.
The bandwidth is linear with distance so I'll arbitrarily pick the
two ends of I-90 / I-94 in Montana (Sohon and Wibaux).
Google maps says that if you stay on the interstate, that's 10 h 8 min
(608 minutes or 63,480 seconds). So 6,806,392 TB / 63,480 seconds = 107.2
TB / s
= 878,354 Gbps (note bits not bytes). But then you have to put up with
20+ hour ping times...
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:59 PM Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 10/24/2024 5:47 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III via
cctalk wrote:
Nowadays, of course, it would be a Chevrolet Suburban full of 1 TB
micro-SDXC cards.
Micro-SD volume[1]: 21.5 mm × 20 mm × 1.4 mm = 0.000602 liters
Suburban cargo volume[2]: 144.7 cu ft = 4097.4477 liters
# TB = # cards = 4097.4477 / 0.000602 = 6,806,392 TB = 6.5 EB
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card#Physical_size
[2] https://www.chevrolet.com/suvs/suburban
<chuckle/>
Thanks not only for the analogy update, but kudos for actually doing the
math.
tips hat
Jim
24 Oct
24 Oct
11:40 p.m.
On 10/24/24 14:57, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I still have the Samsonite briefcase I used to transport 7-track tapes
as carry-on baggage. Jets even then, were much faster than station
wagons. 6 tapes to a trip.
More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate
and catch the next return flight".
--Chuck
How about Tymshare/Tymnet/SBC....etc.
Did Call Computer in Mountain View employ a file transfer protocol for
use by subscribers?
Impressive claims were made about station wagon full of tapes hurtling
down the highway.
11:43 p.m.
I once brought source code open reel tapes back from Italy. Had to explain to customs guy
at O’Hare what they were.
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:02 a.m.
> Impressive claims were made about station wagon
full of tapes hurtling
> down the highway.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
I still have the Samsonite briefcase I used to
transport 7-track tapes
as carry-on baggage. Jets even then, were much faster than station
wagons. 6 tapes to a trip.
More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate
and catch the next return flight".
I sold Microsoft FORTRAN [for TRS80] to the college (while I was both
teaching and running a business)
I was not the teacher of the FORTRAN class.
But Lifeboat (the distributor) kept missing deadlines, and telling me that
it had been shipped, and then telling me that it would be shipped soon.
So, I called my friend Bob Wallace who was still working at Microsoft (he
was the tenth employee). On my way back from the eclipse in Montana, I
flew back with a stop in Seattle. Bob got the FIRST THREE copies (so
THAT's why Lifeboat couldn't ship yet!), and handed them to me in the
Seattle airport.
I was not impressed by The teacher.
He was as sharp as a bag of wet hair.
He announced that the compilers "DO NOT WORK", because he typed in a tiny
trivial code example in the manual, and it failed due to a typo of a
missing comma in the printing of the manual. (That any REAL FORTRAN
programmer would spot immediately.)
I corrected his source code, and he grudgingly accepted them.
A few years later, he left (without notice) for a position at Cal State
Hayward, and, with six hours notice, I began teaching Fortran. But, by
that time, the college was using IBM Microsoft Fortran for the PC (which
had its own problems)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
12:08 a.m.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:50 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate
and catch the next return flight".
--Chuck
How did you know you were handing it to the right guy and not a Russian spy?
Sellam
12:16 a.m.
> More than once it was "hand the tapes to
someone meeting you at the gate
> and catch the next return flight".
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
How did you know you were handing it to the right guy
and not a Russian spy?
He said, "Julius sent me", and had a piece of a Jell-O box
2:12 a.m.
On 10/24/24 17:08, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 4:50 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Given the nature of the project, that might have scored a US victory in
the Cold War years earlier... :)
More than once it was "hand the tapes to someone meeting you at the gate
and catch the next return flight".
--Chuck
How did you know you were handing it to the right guy and not a Russian spy?
24 Oct
24 Oct
8:36 p.m.
> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and
Facebook user, seemed to
> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor about
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting
my feelings :-)
dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and
Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones preceded CBBS.
BUT, CBBS did have a few things to distinguish it.
no SUBSCRIPTION charges
a peer culture, without major corporate management and control
Of interest only here: run on a Z80 (8080?) miscrocomputer
encouraged others to do the same (absolutely not the case with the commercial ones)
For those unable or unwilling to pay for a subscription, and for those who
just wanted to casually try it withno committment, CBBS made it possible.
THAT got quite a few people started.
So, CBBS was extremely important, but not "THE FIRST" bulletin board system.
(and, of course, XMODEM was not "THE FIRST" file transfer protocol)
(thank you, to our newspaper people, for clarifying why XMODEM was barely mentioned)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
9:21 p.m.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there
were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were.
Sellam
> The
author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
to
> have never heard about existence of computers
before internet, nor about
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is
hurting my feelings :-)
dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and
Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones
preceded CBBS.
9:54 p.m.
> dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source
(1979, so a tie), and
> Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones
> preceded CBBS.
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that
old, and I don't think there
were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were.
Yes, that was a typo (adjacent keys).
But long ago, people hired to do arithmetic were called "computers" :-)
or at least "calculators"
But, even so, I doubt that the vikings who discovered America, nor king
William the Conqueror (subjugating Northern Englan), nor Romanos IV
(attacking the seljik Turks) did much arithmetic.
They were still reeling from Y1K.
Stonehenge wasn't portable, or at least Belafon the systems analyst said so.
Antikytheran devices were in very short supply.
And, it was more than 500 years before the Pascaline (developed by Blaise
Pascal), Napier's Bones, or slide rules.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
10:18 p.m.
Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that
old, and I don't think
there
were computers back in 1069. At least I don't
think there were.
No, the date is correct. Creating CompuServe was one of the first
acts of King William in the immediate aftermath of winning the Norman
Conquest
in 1066. CompuServe (using human computers, of course, as Fred points out)
was a way for King William to communicate with his newly conquered land,
in a time when the printing press was not to be invented until centuries
later.
Neil Stephenson wrote an excellent summary of this topic in his
introduction to
the 50th anniversary edition of The Crying of Lot 49.
If you're wondering, I learned all of these facts from ChatGPT.
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 2:23 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > >> The author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user,
> seemed
> > to
> > >> have never heard about existence of computers before internet, nor
> about
> >
> > On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
> > > Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is hurting my feelings :-)
> >
> > dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and
> > Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones
> > preceded CBBS.
> >
>
> Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think
there
were computers back in 1069. At least I don't
think there were.
>
> Sellam
>
25 Oct
25 Oct
1:56 a.m.
On 2024-10-24 3:21 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, Oct 24, 2024 at 1:45 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Come on, Fred. You're old but you're not that old, and I don't think there
were computers back in 1069. At least I don't think there were.
Well back then they computed time mostly.
> The
author, presumably a heavy Reddit, TikTok and Facebook user, seemed
to
> have never heard about existence of computers
before internet, nor about
On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote:
Y'all are ignoring CompuServe and that is
hurting my feelings :-)
dialog (1966), Compuserve (1069), The Source (1979, so a tie), and
Community Memory (1973, but not dialup), and probably a few lesser ones
preceded CBBS.
Sellam
31
days inactive
41
days old
62 comments
22 participants
participants (22)
-
Ali -
ben -
Bill Degnan -
Bill Gunshannon -
CAREY SCHUG -
Christian Liendo -
Chuck Guzis -
Donald Whittemore -
Doug Jackson -
Doug McIntyre -
Fred Cisin -
Henry Bent -
Jim Brain -
jim stephens -
Johan Helsingius -
Joseph S. Barrera III -
Liam Proven -
Mark E. Mallett -
Robert Feldman -
Sellam Abraham -
Steve Lewis -
Wayne S