10 Mar
2023
10 Mar
'23
midnight
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph,
noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to
handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will
not transfer to anyone.
Interesting thoughts there.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:34 a.m.
On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph,
noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to
handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will
not transfer to anyone.
I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody
manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment
for handling them.
I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime,
the conversion business is still good.
--Chuck
2:40 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 4:34 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 3/9/23 16:00, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
Sellam
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph,
noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to
handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company will
not transfer to anyone.
I recall reading a similar article about him. I can understand--nobody
manufactures the things today, after all, not to mention the equipment
for handling them.
I'm sure that some will survive--witness paper tape. In the meantime,
the conversion business is still good.
--Chuck
3:57 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her
garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of
magnetic material?
Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media
that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would
that also need to be bespoke manufactured?
How precisely does the coating need to be put down?
It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we
tend not to BE reasonable and practical.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:14 a.m.
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her
garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
In "Secret Life of Machines", season 2, episode 6, they make crude audio
tape from powdered rust and sticky tape ("Scotch tape" for those
unconcerned about trademarks)
. . . would have to be a lot less crude than that
4:15 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 7:57 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
--
Jeri Ellsworth made integrated circuits in her
garage.
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches
of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using
cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses large areas/sheets of
magnetic material?
Is there ANYTHING besides floppy disks that uses a liquid magnetic media
that could be used for the coating, and might even be available, or would
that also need to be bespoke manufactured?
How precisely does the coating need to be put down?
It certainly doesn't seem like a reasonable, PRACTICAL project. But we
tend not to BE reasonable and practical.
Grumpy Ol' Fred
cisin(a)xenosoft.com
Reasonable? Are you serious? We run decades, even half century old
computing machines in our garages for fun.
I would've suggested the manufacturers of debit/credit cards as a source
for the magnetic material but that seems to be giving way to the chips.
But I'll be willing to bet a supplier could be found on Ali Baba for some
sort of magnetic thin film material. It would be cheating, but floppy
disks won't be re-invented in a day.
Ultimately, it would be fun to actually mix up the magnetic paste and apply
it to a flexible mylar disc with a centrifuge. It would definitely be an
adventure. And a very unreasonable one at that.
Sellam
4:14 a.m.
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
I wonder how much challenge would be involved in
making artisan batches of
5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust
altogether.
The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if
anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the
same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however.
Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market...
--Chuck
4:34 a.m.
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
> I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
> 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the
spinning rust
altogether.
The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if
anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the
same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however.
Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market...
I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need"
other than nostalgia.
5:58 a.m.
On 3/9/2023 10:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a
"need" other than nostalgia.
I've actually considered trying to research finding equipment to
manufacture such media, and/or recreating it. Everyone needs another
hobby, right?
That said, in my day job, I've seen IT folks at times be their worst
enemy in focusing so much energy in keeping outdated items running, only
to discover a lack of support to upgrade/replace said items because
they've removed the friction of staying with the outdated device/system.
Part of me sees the same issue here. It'd be expensive but not
insurmountable to recreate lots of media options, and even more
realistic if some of the old manufacturing equipment is still mothballed
and not scrapped. But, putting new floppy disk media into the market,
even at inflated prices, would remove the friction IT resources have
depended on to force governments and businesses to at least migrate to
solid state replacements, if not fully upgraded systems.
Obviously, the cost (and the fact that finding existing equipment to
un-mothball is the much more realistic an option to pursue rather than
trying to fabricate new equipment) is a significant roadblock, but I
also hesitate for the above reason. It's almost like a few more years
need to pass, to force the remaining holdouts to realize floppydisk.com
and eBay and the nature of rust glued onto mylar will not exist much
longer at quality levels that companies can risk.
Then, I'm hoping someone with deeper pockets than I starts production :-)
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
2:20 p.m.
On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:34 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
There's an old saying that the perfect business to be in is one large enough for one
vendor, too small for two. It certainly would be conceivable for somoene to buy up the
business when the current owner retires, if there's reason to believe there is enough
revenue to keep one or two people happy. It's no different from the thousands or
perhaps millions of small manufacturing businesses. Curiously enough, some of these close
down when the owner retires without an apparent effort to find a buyer -- I remember a
local tote bag company, or for that matter the much lamented Lindsay Publications.
For a nice example of a small business in our subject area, consider Ersatz-11.
paul
On 3/9/23 18:40, Sellam Abraham via cctalk
wrote:
> I wonder how much challenge would be involved in making artisan batches of
> 5.25" or 8" floppy disks using cobbled-together or homemade equipment?
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning
the spinning rust
altogether.
The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I don't know if
anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the
same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however.
Certainly it's doable, but I wonder about the market...
I doubt that there is any market segment with deep pockets, with a "need" other
than nostalgia. 
12:49 p.m.
The mylar substrate would probably be the easiest. I
don't know if
anyone's still making audio tape, but the coating equipment might be the
same. I don't know how to find the proper stuff for the goo, however.
ATR Magnetics (www.atrtape.com) and others still produce audio tape. They
have normal consumer-style stuff up to the 2" reels. Not sure if the 2"
stuff they sell will work on digital machines like the Sony DASH machines.
Cassette tapes are kind of back a little as well and apparently there are
duplication houses for them again.
--
: Ethan O'Toole
4:14 p.m.
On 3/9/23 22:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
Many folks have turned to emulators, abandoning the spinning rust
altogether.
Yup, my year-2000 pick and place machine had a 3.5" floppy
drive, but I had no confidence that any old disks would be
workable, and I had no other machines with drives for that.
So, I got one of those floppy emulators that takes a USB
thumb drive and emulates a bunch of 1.44 MB floppies. It
worked great until I figured out how to get the network
running on that machine. (It runs Win 95 and needs it
because user programs access hardware directly.
Jon
12:53 a.m.
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on something as wonky as
a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go
I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images.
Cz
On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom
Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years.
After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone.
Interesting thoughts there.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
7:13 a.m.
Thats exactly the solution. Just keep a few floppies around so that you can transfer a
saved image back to floppy to be read by the machine that needs it.
Personally, there was so much media manufactured that I think the machines that read the
media will fail long before we run out of media.
Wayne
On Mar 9, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Christopher Zach via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on ebay and work on something as wonky
as a professional 350, I think it's time to let 5.25 floppies go
I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images.
Cz
> On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
>
> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom
Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years.
After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone.
>
> Interesting thoughts there.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Brain
> brain(a)jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
>
4:52 p.m.
If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25"
floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and
data loss from charge depletion .... though I might not be around to see
that be a big problem :-)
Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-).... I'll take 'em :-) ....
(though I probably shouldn't :-) ).
No 3.5" HD though.... I have enough of those to last a lifetime.... if
they last :-)
-- Curt
On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote:
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop on
ebay and work on
something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let
5.25 floppies go
I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to
images.
Cz
On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
>
>Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph,
> noting that Tom Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to
> handle things for 5 more years. After that, he thinks the company
> will not transfer to anyone.
>
>Interesting thoughts there.
>
>Jim
>
>--
>Jim Brain
>brain(a)jbrain.com
>www.jbrain.com
>
5:25 p.m.
Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of these rx50s. Black stuff transfers to
the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a mess and I have to check heads
on all new disks.
Kind of like the tk50 tapes
On March 10, 2023 11:52:29 AM EST, rescue via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25" floppies
will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot and data loss from charge
depletion .... though I might not be around to see that be a big problem :-)
Don't toss your 5.25" floppies though :-).... I'll take 'em :-) ....
(though I probably shouldn't :-) ).
No 3.5" HD though.... I have enough of those to last a lifetime.... if they last
:-)
-- Curt
On 2023-03-09 19:53, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote:
Interesting article but when goteks are 30 a pop
on ebay and work on
something as wonky as a professional 350, I think it's time to let
5.25 floppies go
I'll get a teac but mainly to convert all my pdp11 floppies to images.
Cz
On March 9, 2023 7:00:39 PM EST, Jim Brain via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> https://www.wired.com/story/why-the-floppy-disk-just-wont-die/
>
> Take what you want from the article, but I thought the end paragraph, noting that Tom
Persky of floppydisk.com is 73 and is only planning to handle things for 5 more years.
After that, he thinks the company will not transfer to anyone.
>
> Interesting thoughts there.
>
> Jim
>
> --
> Jim Brain
> brain(a)jbrain.com
> www.jbrain.com
>
6:58 p.m.
On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote:
Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some of
these rx50s. Black stuff transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies.
Result is a mess and I have to check heads on all new disks.
Kind of like the tk50 tapes
Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these
shedding-like-an-angora-cat media.
--Chuck
8:50 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 10:58 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/10/23 09:25, Christopher Zach via cctalk wrote:
Please explain, Chuck.
Sellam
Maybe. I've seen a lot of floppy rot on some
of these rx50s. Black stuff
transfers to the head then the head damages other floppies. Result is a
mess and I have to check heads on all new disks.
Kind of like the tk50 tapes
Cyclomethicone works a treat for recovering data from these
shedding-like-an-angora-cat media.
--Chuck
9:12 p.m.
On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Please explain, Chuck.
Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just
before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the
stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It
lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read.
Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface.
I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies.
I use the stuff on tapes as well.
--Chuck
9:22 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 1:12 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been
keeping this knowledge from us?
https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B0…
$15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks.
Sellam
Please explain, Chuck.
Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just
before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the
stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It
lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read.
Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface.
I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies.
I use the stuff on tapes as well.
11:26 p.m.
On 3/10/23 13:22, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Just when you think you've heard of everything. How long have you been
keeping this knowledge from us?
https://www.amazon.com/Mystic-Moments-RMCYCL100-Cyclomethicone-Liquid/dp/B0…
$15 for 125mL. Sounds like that would be good for hundreds of disks.
I've mentioned it multiple times on VCF and it's also mentioned on Herb
Johnson's retrocomputing web site.
I can't risk clobbering a client's disk or tape, particularly not one
sent by an institution's achivist of whom I'd like to remain on the good
side. D5/Cyclo has been a lifesaver. The stuff is slick but inert;
it's used extensively in cosmetics and lotions. It's also somewhat
volatile, so it evaporates after awhile.
Hair detangler is a very notable use of it that even finds use in equine
circles. I suspect that you could drink the stuff and not suffer
anything but a bad stomach ache, but I'm not about to prove it.
Another bottle of stuff that I keep around for softening rubber pinch
rollers and capstans is methyl salicylate/oil of wintergreen. Smells to
high heaven like arthritis cream. Mixed with a mild solvent (e.g.
xylene) it softens hard rubber up quite nicely, but your shop smells
like a gym locker room for a time.
And of course, heptane for cleaning--dissolves glue, cleans tape heads,
etc. without harming plastics or staining paper.
FWIW,
Chuck
9:32 p.m.
Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks?
Mike Zahorik
(414) 254-6768
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, March 10, 2023 03:12 PM
To: Sellam Abraham via cctalk
Cc: Chuck Guzis
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Why the Floppy Disk Just Won't Die
On 3/10/23 12:50, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:
Please explain, Chuck.
Sure, bake the disks (I'm sure you know how to do this), then just
before reading, coat the surface with a thin coat of cyclomethicone (the
stuff has almost no surface tension, so a couple of drops works). It
lubricates the surface temporarily; long enough to get a good read.
Eventually, it evaporates, leaving you with the original surface.
I've used it successfully on those wretched Wabash 5.25" floppies.
I use the stuff on tapes as well.
--Chuck
11:30 p.m.
On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote:
Chuck can you give a few details about
'baking' disks?
I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air
circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W
incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some
folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose.
I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of
hours.
--Chuck
11 Mar
11 Mar
7:51 p.m.
Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are
they not good at holding temp control?
I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc.
Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of
later.
The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on
someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home
solution for less important data.
On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote:
Chuck can you give a few details about
'baking' disks?
I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air
circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W
incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some
folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose.
I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of
hours.
8:18 p.m.
I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. There’s a few YouTube
videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I think there was quite a discussion
about it on cctalk a few years ago.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 11, 2023, at 11:52, John Herron via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a good device or are
they not good at holding temp control?
I thought I had heard of a few folks using those for reflow jobs, etc.
Especially since there's not risk of using an oven you might want out of
later.
The more I think about it though, the risk of a Fisher Price toy on
someone's important data sounds sort of stupid. But might be a cheap home
solution for less important data.
> On Fri, Mar 10, 2023, 5:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/10/23 13:32, mike via cctalk wrote:
>> Chuck can you give a few details about 'baking' disks?
>
> I can tell you how I do it--an "oven" held at 58C +/- 0.5C with good air
> circulation. Mine is custom built, where the heat source is a 75W
> incandescent lamp, low-speed fan and PID controller. I've heard of some
> folks adapting food dehydrators for the purpose.
>
> I generally put stuff in for a day, then let things cool for a couple of
> hours.
>
9:27 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2023, at 3:18 PM, Wayne S via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for reflow work. There’s a few YouTube
videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I think there was quite a discussion
about it on cctalk a few years ago.
Yes, for example you can get an oven controller from Dbit (John Wilson, author of
Ersatz-11) to do that. I remember an article in a German ham radio magazine that
discusses the subject, and points out that it's trickier than you might think. The
reason is that toaster ovens are basically IR heaters, so the temperature of the object
depends on how much it absorbs. In the article there was a suggestion to attach the
thermistor used by the controller to a second PCB similar to the one being reflowed, so it
would sense a temperature close to that of the real board.
paul
12 Mar
12 Mar
1:48 a.m.
On 3/11/23 14:18, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
I’ve heard of people using electric toaster ovens for
reflow work. There’s a few YouTube videos about it. Should work for baking tapes too. I
think there was quite a discussion about it on cctalk a few years ago.
I have used a large GE toaster oven to reflow over 2000
boards. I got a ramp and soak thermocouple controller (it
allow you to program temp points and time intervals between
the points) and poke a micro-size thermocouple into a PC
board plated through hole. Thus it controls actual board
temperature.
Jon
11 Mar
11 Mar
8:26 p.m.
On 3/11/23 11:51, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
Maybe a dumb question but would an easy bake oven be a
good device or are
they not good at holding temp control?
No--you really need good temperature control for two reasons (at least
in my experience):
1. Magnetic media on a mylar substrate doesn't have much thermal
inertia, unlike a PCB. So when the temperature goes way above set
point, it can do damage. Recall that you're working with plastics.
2. You're walking a fine line on temperature. Much higher, and the
medium could be damaged, but too low and baking does little good.
Check with the tapeheads people--the audio tape fraternity does a lot of
this sort of thing.
--Chuck
10 Mar
10 Mar
6:24 p.m.
On 3/10/2023 11:52 AM, rescue via cctalk wrote:
If properly care for and stored, I'd be willing to bet that the 5.25"
floppies will be working after the flash replacements suffer bit rot
and data loss from charge depletion .... though I might not be around
to see that be a big problem :-)
I have floppies, 5 1/4" and 8" , that have sat around my basement in
cardboard
boxes for over 40 year that are all perfectly readable. I expect to run
out of
hardware capable of reading them long before they become unreadable.
bill
620
days inactive
622
days old
28 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
Bill Gunshannon -
Christopher Zach -
Chuck Guzis -
Ethan O'Toole -
Fred Cisin -
Jim Brain -
John Herron -
Jon Elson -
mike -
Paul Koning -
rescue -
Sellam Abraham -
Wayne S