14 Mar
2023
14 Mar
'23
5:16 p.m.
But, as some who worked
to bring a product to market only to see people on forums say "Skip
buying it from Jim for $$$$, you can build the same thing by yourself
for $ from AliExpress parts or buy this eBay knockoff for 2X$", I will
admit that is somewhat infuriating. If the hobby community is not
willing to pay a bit of premium to support those who bring out the
products that benefit the community, the designers will get disgusted
and leave.
Agree 100%. We stopped running XT-IDEs for a while due to the proliferation of knockoffs
and the total indifference of a good portion of the community -- some folks even get
hostile when you suggest they maybe not buy knockoffs that can't even abide by the
terms of the open-source project license!
I'd designed a universal "bolts to any existing XT-IDE and doesn't eat a
slot" CF adapter that never got run. After posting a development picture of the
prototype, one of the knockoff folks ripped the design off before I had even received my
quote from Keystone for the custom ISA brackets. No way was I going to spend on a run of
500x custom brackets when someone was already ripping off the idea. There are other things
that we've chosen not to run for the same basic reason, and others that won't get
open sourced.
Thus, I'd say if a Saleae is something to pursue,
try to buy
one from them, to support their awesome GUI, and then drop by eBay and
grab 2 or 4 of the knockoffs to put in your toolbox or travel debugging
rucksack.
I'll go further and say don't buy knockoffs, period.
It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying knockoffs fuels the
ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff, it's never been that a single
knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's that there's a zillion of them that run
maybe 100 boards and disappear. Death by a thousand cuts. They charge $1-5 less while
running the cheapest possible boards, stuffing with salvaged chips, etc. Meanwhile,
we're having to pay for runs of boards with hard gold plating and buy genuine parts
from Mouser.
Thanks,
Jonathan
14 Mar
14 Mar
5:48 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 09:16:02PM +0000, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
It's not so black and white.
There are severl indications that clones of Saleae LAs being on the
market is not due to some Chinese pirate shop stealing the original IP
against the will of the creators.
* The main IC in a 16 channel Saleae LA is a Xilinx Spartan 6, which
makes it rather trivial to protect the bitstream to an extent that
makes it close to impossible to run it on contraband hardware. Saleae
chose not to make use of that.
* The Saleae host software doesn't attempt to validate that the hardware
it talks to is genuine even though that would be trivial to do as
well.
* No import stop of clones or anything like that was attempted by the
company.
* Listings on eBay, etc. of Saleae clones are advertised as "Saleae",
which could easily be stopped by the company, that has happened
thousands of times for other products.
Clones of Saleae devices are on the market since a long time. Saleae
brought out new hardware revisions since then, so the argument 'they
were taken by surprise' doesn't hold up.
I see this as a marketing stunt.
"Hobbyists can buy the cheap stuff from China, companies where things
matter will still buy from us. Word of mouth will help us."
That strategy is working pretty well actually and does so for other
companies as well.
Let's face it, there is a sizable number of people who will never ever
buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't
afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company.
Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end
of story.
Should you buy a knockoff iphone? I don't know.
Though a knockoff Saleae LA won't make you end up in hell.
-Alex
But, as some
who worked
to bring a product to market only to see people on forums say "Skip
buying it from Jim for $$$$, you can build the same thing by yourself
for $ from AliExpress parts or buy this eBay knockoff for 2X$", I will
admit that is somewhat infuriating. If the hobby community is not
willing to pay a bit of premium to support those who bring out the
products that benefit the community, the designers will get disgusted
and leave.
Agree 100%. We stopped running XT-IDEs for a while due to the proliferation of knockoffs
and the total indifference of a good portion of the community -- some folks even get
hostile when you suggest they maybe not buy knockoffs that can't even abide by the
terms of the open-source project license!
I'd designed a universal "bolts to any existing XT-IDE and doesn't eat a
slot" CF adapter that never got run. After posting a development picture of the
prototype, one of the knockoff folks ripped the design off before I had even received my
quote from Keystone for the custom ISA brackets. No way was I going to spend on a run of
500x custom brackets when someone was already ripping off the idea. There are other things
that we've chosen not to run for the same basic reason, and others that won't get
open sourced.
Thus, I'd say if a Saleae is something to
pursue, try to buy
one from them, to support their awesome GUI, and then drop by eBay and
grab 2 or 4 of the knockoffs to put in your toolbox or travel debugging
rucksack.
I'll go further and say don't buy knockoffs, period.
It's nice to support the designers in some capacity, but buying
knockoffs fuels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff,
it's never been that a single knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's
that there's a zillion of them that run maybe 100 boards and
disappear. Death by a thousand cuts. They charge $1-5 less while
running the cheapest possible boards, stuffing with salvaged chips,
etc. Meanwhile, we're having to pay for runs of boards with hard gold
plating and buy genuine parts from Mouser. 
6:23 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 3/14/23 14:48, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
Let's face it, there is a sizable number of people
who will never ever
buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't
afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company.
Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end
of story.
The other alternative is to buy a used logic analyzer. Many times,
these are available for pennies on the dollar. My HP 1663A cost me a
grand total of $47 shipped. It was complete with pods, extra "grabbers"
etc. Basically a device surplussed by a electronic test equipment rental
outfit.
Yes, it isn't new, but it has far more capabilities than I can use.
For me setting up an LA is such a bother that I usually try to think
things through, maybe using a 'scope to test things. For those problems
that don't fit that mold, the LA is often the only tool to provide the
answer. But that situation for me is pretty rare.
--Chuck
6:51 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 14 Mar 2023, at 23:23, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/14/23 14:48, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
You don't get that option in Europe though. Haven't seen any of the
better stuff here, like, ever. I've stopped looking, because nothing turned up for
years and years. At one point, I'd have considered selling multiple organs for one of
the later HP with all of the nice options - but I've learned to make do what I have
instead, mostly because nobody was selling. Logic analyzers are brilliant if you know what
is going wrong, and need to find proof that your theory is correct. But not necessarily
for finding out the start of the problem - well, not for me at least, I can't speak
for those who've had access to one of those mythical HP things.
About Saleae - nice physical design, but I'm not sure something with max 16 channels
merits the term 'logic analyzer'. And their stuff is way overpriced for what it
is. Not that that makes it right to steal their design, their work, their IP from them,
obvs. But there are alternatives that are way cheaper and more capable, and it seems like
it is a business strategy kind of decision for Saleae that they don't choose to
compete on the technology front. If anything, I'm amazed that took them as far as it
apparently has.
--
Sytse
Let's face it, there is a sizable number of
people who will never ever
buy a logic analyzer for north of $1000. Either because they can't
afford it or are too greedy. That is not lost revenue for the company.
Either those people buy a clone or they don't have a Saleae product, end
of story.
The other alternative is to buy a used logic analyzer. Many times,
these are available for pennies on the dollar. My HP 1663A cost me a
grand total of $47 shipped. It was complete with pods, extra "grabbers"
etc. Basically a device surplussed by a electronic test equipment rental
outfit. 
8:04 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 3/14/2023 4:48 PM, Alexander Huemer via cctalk wrote:
* The main IC in a 16 channel Saleae LA is a Xilinx Spartan 6,
The clones are of the older pre 2015 Cypress FX2 design, which was not
easy to protect. I don't see any eBay listings for the newer stuff in
clone format. I do see Logic8/Logic16 clones for sale, but they are not
the Xilinx variant.
* The Saleae host software doesn't attempt to
validate that the hardware
it talks to is genuine even though that would be trivial to do as
well.
When version 1.1.9 came out, they did just that, to try to protect the
unit. The backlash was incredible, since most of the clones had
represented themselves as Saleae units, so the folks with now bricked
units complained bitterly to Saleae. They removed the check under
pressure. If you look at clone ads, you'll see 1.1.10+ as the app
version, for exactly that reason.
* No import stop of clones or anything like that was
attempted by the
company.
I don't know how you would stop the import of clones. The design
is
trivial and cannot be copyrighted (the specific PCB artwork could, but
the clones never use that, they are much smaller and laid out
differently. The controller is loaded from the PC, so I believe the
clones didn't even need to pirate the SW.
* Listings on eBay, etc. of Saleae clones are
advertised as "Saleae",
which could easily be stopped by the company, that has happened
thousands of times for other products.
They seem reasonably successful. I
remember in mid 2010s, there were
tons of listings. Now, I see a single Logic16 (old Cypress-based clone)
for $73 on eBay before I see actual used Logic16 Pro units. But, I see
a ton of Logic8 and Logic16 clones under generic names that are easy to
identify as Logic clones. $9.00 (for 8 ch) to $50 (for 16).
Clones of Saleae devices are on the market since a
long time. Saleae
brought out new hardware revisions since then, so the argument 'they
were taken by surprise' doesn't hold up.
Is there a link where they said
they were taken by surprise? I think
they were in the beginning, but that was in 2014. If the quote is
recent, I would agree, they've known for a while.
Though a knockoff Saleae LA won't make you end up
in hell.
I don't think I implied it would. I do have reservations about such a
recommendation in general and how it could negatively affect this
community, as people apply it to other products/projects.
All that said, I will concede that the current Logic pricing is steep.
For the price of a 2023 Logic16Pro, I procured 2 complete 16XXX HP
frames, made a fully loaded units with 2 function generators/3 333 MHz
LA cards (204 channels)/100MHz DSO, and sold the extra 16500 frame with
2 100MHz+ cards onto to another community member. Maybe Sigrok and a
few of the less expensive 32/34 channel options is a better suggestion
for the lower end option.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
11:21 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
I have been thinking about this discussion: I bought one of the cheap 8
channel units on Ebay and downloaded the Salee software. It works
extremely well for debugging logic issues on my pdp8/L's but it has a
few issues:
The buffer size is miniscule, and I get data overruns at higher sample
rates.
It does not do analog signal analysis, only digital. So it's great for
TTL logic, not so great for trying to figure out what's coming off the
tape head on the TU58.
So it can't work for everything, but it's an excellent introduction. My
next step up will probably be the $500 8 channel unit, that can do
analog and has a real buffer. So I wind up supporting the company anyway.
CZ
5:55 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 3/14/2023 4:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote:
There are other things that we've chosen not to
run for the same basic
reason, and others that won't get open sourced.
I will admit I am trending in that direction. I put things as FLOSS
because I wanted the designs to outlast my involvement with the
community. I thought if the design was open source and I wanted to or
had to depart (including the Great Departure), the designs would
continue to be available rather than disappear. But, so many people have
abused that idea. Luckily, most of my stuff is not useful enough to
copy and sell online...
Of course, not putting it out as open source infuriates folks as well,
especially those who believe in "right to repair" (I do as well, but
some people are pedantic about it and will not buy anything closed).
And, putting it out with a closed source license doesn't help, as people
still clone it, and they don't care about the legalities of it.
It's nice to support the designers in some
capacity, but buying knockoffs fuels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs.
I'm
waxing a bit pragmatic, I guess. People gotta people, I figure.
Jim
9:26 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Mar 14, 2023, at 2:55 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/14/2023 4:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote:
If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't a knockoff,
it's the system working as intended.
-- Chris
There are other things that we've chosen not
to run for the same basic reason, and others that won't get open sourced.
I will admit I am trending in that direction. I put things as FLOSS because I wanted the
designs to outlast my involvement with the community. I thought if the design was open
source and I wanted to or had to depart (including the Great Departure), the designs would
continue to be available rather than disappear. But, so many people have abused that idea.
Luckily, most of my stuff is not useful enough to copy and sell online...
10:23 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 3/14/2023 8:26 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote:
If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else
producing it isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
-- Chris
Yep, naive on my part. I would counter that if I had just published my
designs online with a commercial license, I doubt it would have made a
difference :-) Anymore, it seems people assume that if the files exist,
it's OK to copy and produce.
It seems witholding some of the files/designs and/or sharing with a
trusted source who has permission to open source or otherwise publish it
after you are no longer interested in the thing is the only way to
accomplish my goal, at the expense of people who'd like to peruse the
internals for personal value or fix one.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain(a)jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
10:57 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else
producing it isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying with the terms of
the license? That's what really bugs me, the "cost" of producing your own
from one of our designs is attribution and releasing your design under the same or a
compatible license, but apparently that's too much to ask.
Thanks,
Jonathan
15 Mar
15 Mar
7:46 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Jonathan Chapman via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
You're talking about GPL or equivalent there -- for which the FSF has at times been
the enforcer. BSD style licenses require next to nothing of people copying (in
particular, they don't require releasing the derived work).
Personally I'm partial to BSD style licenses, though some of my open source work was
originally licensed under GPL. (I may change that at some point if I want to bother.)
That means I'm accepting the possibility that someone could copy what I did and sell
it as a closed product. Fine, so be it (that doesn't close what I did, of course).
paul
If you posted your design as Open Source, someone
else producing it isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying with the terms
of the license? That's what really bugs me, the "cost" of producing your own
from one of our designs is attribution and releasing your design under the same or a
compatible license, but apparently that's too much to ask.
Thanks,
Jonathan 
16 Mar
16 Mar
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for help with Desktop
CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply.
Tom Hunter
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 7:46 AM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:57 PM, Jonathan Chapman
via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
> If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it
isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
What is it when the design is open source, but they're not complying
with the terms of the license? That's what really bugs me, the
"cost" of
producing your own from one of our designs is attribution and releasing
your design under the same or a compatible license, but apparently that's
too much to ask.
Thanks,
Jonathan
You're talking about GPL or equivalent there -- for which the FSF has at
times been the enforcer. BSD style licenses require next to nothing of
people copying (in particular, they don't require releasing the derived
work).
Personally I'm partial to BSD style licenses, though some of my open
source work was originally licensed under GPL. (I may change that at some
point if I want to bother.) That means I'm accepting the possibility that
someone could copy what I did and sell it as a closed product. Fine, so be
it (that doesn't close what I did, of course).
paul
11:14 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
Maybe they only do for GPL items of their own.
paul
On Mar 16, 2023, at 11:05 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for help with Desktop
CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply.
Tom Hunter
11:24 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
FSF does not enforce anything. I repeatedly begged for
help with Desktop
CYBER which was GPL licensed and they did not even bother to reply.
I'm told by a friend at Red Hat that RH/IBM has a department for that kind of thing
and can/will provide legal help for outside projects.
Thanks,
Jonathan
12:31 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
FSF does not enforce anything.
https://gpl-violations.org/
They do though.
-Alex
9:25 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter
via cctalk wrote:
Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action was
from 2013.
If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's related
to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or
appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono *
representation.
KJ
FSF does not enforce anything.
https://gpl-violations.org/
They do though.
-Alex
17 Mar
17 Mar
3:13 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried wrote:
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
True.
Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active
in the free software community and surely happy to help.
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom
Hunter via cctalk wrote:
Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action was
from 2013. FSF does not enforce anything.
https://gpl-violations.org/
They do though.
-Alex
If you actually want to pursue GPL violations,
especially if it's related
to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or
appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono *
representation.
That might be the case, I don't know these people.
There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for
violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big
deal.
-Alex
[1] https://sfconservancy.org/
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/
6:59 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
FSF hasn't done anything in at least a decade, but someone from there "is
still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are doing
something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because you "don't know these
people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't
know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing
something, so...look! squirrel!?
No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity.
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken Seefried
wrote:
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer
via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
was
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom
Hunter via cctalk wrote:
Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action
FSF does not enforce anything.
https://gpl-violations.org/
They do though.
-Alex
from 2013.
True.
Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active
in the free software community and surely happy to help.
If you actually want to pursue GPL violations,
especially if it's related
to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF or
appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro bono *
representation.
That might be the case, I don't know these people.
There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for
violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big
deal.
-Alex
[1] https://sfconservancy.org/
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/
7:48 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a journalist that while
said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC
CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating it.
Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just a slander, that's the
guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying.
Sellam
* remaining nameless
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:59 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
FSF hasn't done anything in at least a decade, but
someone from there "is
still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are doing
something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because you "don't know these
people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't
know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing
something, so...look! squirrel!?
No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity.
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
was
related
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken
Seefried wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk
wrote:
> FSF does not enforce anything.
https://gpl-violations.org/
They do though.
-Alex
Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement action
from 2013.
True.
Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very active
in the free software community and surely happy to help.
> If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's
> to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll
have better luck with the EFF or
> appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro
bono *
representation.
That might be the case, I don't know these people.
There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for
violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big
deal.
-Alex
[1] https://sfconservancy.org/
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/
8:19 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
I once heard...
You don't need hearsay. FSF leadership seems to be proud, and vocal, of
things that make the rest of us cringe.
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 7:48 PM Sellam Abraham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a
journalist that while
said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC
CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating
it.
Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just a slander, that's the
guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying.
Sellam
* remaining nameless
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:59 PM Ken Seefried via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
or
FSF hasn't done anything in at least a
decade, but someone from there "is
still around", so they're somehow relevant. People who actually are
doing
something (e.g litigating) are dismissed because
you "don't know these
people" (aside: there's someone who cares about open source who doesn't
know who the EFF is?). But someone not previously mentioned is doing
something, so...look! squirrel!?
No wonder GPL violators operate with impunity.
On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 3:13 AM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
action
On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 09:25:31PM -0400, Ken
Seefried wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 12:32 PM Alexander Huemer via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 16, 2023 at 11:05:41PM +0800, Tom Hunter via cctalk
wrote:
> > > > FSF does not enforce anything.
> > >
> > > https://gpl-violations.org/
> > > They do though.
> > >
> > > -Alex
> > >
> >
> > Go to 'News' on that site and the last news about an enforcement
> was
> > from 2013.
>
> True.
> Though, Harald Welte, the person behind the project is still very
active
in the
free software community and surely happy to help.
> If you actually want to pursue GPL violations, especially if it's
related
> > to a non-FSF sponsored project, you'll have better luck with the EFF
>
appealing to someone like Popehat/Ken White to help find some *pro
bono *
representation.
That might be the case, I don't know these people.
There is also the SFC[1] who are currently attacking John Deere for
violating the GPL in their farm equipment[2], which is kind of a big
deal.
-Alex
[1] https://sfconservancy.org/
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/926330/
19 Mar
19 Mar
10:44 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
I once heard a story from someone* who was told by a
journalist that while
said journalist was interviewing Richard Stallman he was [WARNING: GRAPHIC
CONTENT COMMENCES HERE] picking the jam from between his toes and eating it.
Oh, that's a thing of legend. Fear not, for there is video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I25UeVXrEHQ
- Ethan
11:08 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
Make of that what you will, but if that isn't just
a slander, that's the
guy upon whose legacy everyone is relying.
Everyone knows (or ought to, at this point) RMS is a weird guy and at best makes some
seriously questionable life choices and misinformed public statements. There's a
reason he was forcibly removed from his position at MIT. I've met him in person,
he's a weird guy.
Both GNU and FSF have grown much larger than RMS.
Thanks,
Jonathan
15 Mar
15 Mar
11:05 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else
producing it
isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
-- Chris
I remember a talk by LadyADA of Adafruit at HOPE about starting a company
making open source hardware and success and all that. It's easy if you
have the marketing and big revenue stream, but eventually people will copy
the designs. Also there are cases where multiple people have the same
idea, I have projects that I started and didn't finish but I bet if I look
around someone else has made the same thing and filled in the gaps.
The first XT-IDE I ever came across was on I think a Chinese site called
Seed Studio. From memory it was a single CPLD (I think?) and EPROM, it was
a pretty sexy design but I've never seen them in the wild. I reached out
to them and they said they would produce them. Later I found out about
other ones and own some of the Glitchworks ones and have bought a few of
the TexElec ones for special laptops (Tandy 1400FD / Yamaha C1.)
Also, big HP versus USB logic analyzer. I had one of those old HP logic
analyzers a while ago and it was really slow. Way easier to use the USB
ones when it comes to portability and software speed. Plus easier to store
captures, share data without a GPIB plotter, etc.
I have one of the DSLogic ones and it does what I need, and as I recally
there is a hack where you can solder in a SMD DRAM IC and expand the
memory (upgrading it DIY to a higher model) if one cares to. Don't know if
it's a clone, didn't research it that hard. Sold the HP years ago, never
up-paid for the Rigol with the logic analyzer functions since the USB ones
were so much cheaper in comparison.
--
: Ethan O'Toole
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On 3/15/2023 10:05 AM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote:
My FLOSS experience has not been all bad. Many linux distributions
include tcpser or make it a package to install, and I have no doubt the
OSS nature of it influenced that. I've created lots of software that
others have forked, improved, and folded back in. I'm always appreciative.
The same has happened with hardware designs. And, if someone takes the
files, modifies the design for a different use case, I actually
appreciate that. One can only itch so many scratches at once, and
knowing that there are derived options for other use cases is a good
feeling.
If you posted
your design as Open Source, someone else producing it
isn't a knockoff, it's the system working as intended.
-- Chris
I remember a talk by LadyADA of Adafruit at HOPE about starting a
company making open source hardware and success and all that. It's
easy if you have the marketing and big revenue stream, but eventually
people will copy the designs. Also there are cases where multiple
people have the same idea, I have projects that I started and didn't
finish but I bet if I look around someone else has made the same thing
and filled in the gaps. Also, big HP versus USB logic analyzer. I had one of
those old HP
logic analyzers a while ago and it was really slow. Way easier to use
the USB ones when it comes to portability and software speed. Plus
easier to store captures, share data without a GPIB plotter, etc.
I'll agree the HP is not my first go to when I want to debug something.
But, I found I had two distinct LA needs. One was a spot or low
quantity need, where 8-32 channels provided plenty of capability and
simple triggers were fine (watch for a falling edge, etc.) But, the
other was 40-80 lines (full address and data busses for multiple busses,
along with control signals) and complex triggering was needed (start
tracing when address1 = $dfea and address2 = $00ea, etc, R/W low, Phi2
high, DMA low, the second time this occurs). At least when I checked,
USB options providing those features were far out of my price range.
But, take nothing I've said as dissing the USB options. I literally
have a unit in my carry on bag, along with some leads, since you never
know when a bit of LA access will quickly help someone.
It's the same with the scope situation (well, in my case, it's
backwards). I *love* my Tek2465 and I'm jsut so comfy firing it up and
scoping a signal of interest. But, it's not portable, so it stays on
the bench. I bought a Siglent1202 when they were too cheap to pass up
(at Hamvention a few years back, show special), and it offers a lot of
cool features the 2465 doesn't offer. It's also more portable. And,
recently the Hantek 1070A was on sale at too good a price to pass up, so
I picked one up. Hantek is awesome ti throw in the box for shows, in
case someone needs a scope. Siglent sits on the bench and is used for
capturing glitches and such, and the Tek is my comfy scope I use
otherwise. Thus, I trend to use the old school option, but I have the
newer tech available since it offers advantages in some cases. That
said, I may sell teh Siglent/Hantek combo and look for a 200MHz dual
channel USB scope with a built in screen (requiring a PC to read the
trace is not always best use)
Jim
9:54 a.m.
New subject: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer
On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 09:16:02PM +0000, Jonathan Chapman via cctalk wrote:
[...]
It's nice to support the designers in some
capacity, but buying knockoffs
fuels the ecosystem that creates knockoffs. With our stuff, it's never
been that a single knockoff operation eats our lunch, it's that there's a
zillion of them that run maybe 100 boards and disappear. Death by a
thousand cuts. They charge $1-5 less while running the cheapest possible
boards, stuffing with salvaged chips, etc. Meanwhile, we're having to pay
for runs of boards with hard gold plating and buy genuine parts from
Mouser.
I'm not currently in the market for an XT-IDE--probably just as well as they
seem to be out of stock---but this sort of product appeals to me and I'd buy
one if I had an 8-bit ISA machine. $60 for the real deal is impulse-buy
territory, and risking a knock-off to save $1-5 isn't worth it. However, I'd
still much rather buy through AliExpress than the likes of Tindie, and it's
only partly about the sticker price:
AliExpress quotes an all-in price in euros including VAT and shipping, and
give a delivery deadline, typically 14-30 days away, although I can choose
to pay for a faster service. They take payment via iDeal and never see my
card number. I pay the quoted amount and no more. The package typically
arrives in the Netherlands within a fortnight, gets rubber-stamped through
customs because AliExpress have prepaid the VAT on my behalf, and lands on
my doorstep the following day. I know how long customs checks take because
the package has tracking and I get frequent status updates.
So: pay money and stuff turns up on time. This brings joy.
Tindie quote a VAT-exclusive price (since it does not handle VAT at all) and
shipping information is buried in their awful interface. AFAICT, it's $25
for the XT-IDE, or possibly that's just for a bare XT-IDE PCB, sent via an
USPS's cheapest untracked service which takes about a month to get to the
Netherlands. When it arrives, I'll be shaken down for some random amount of
VAT and handling fees before the package is released from customs, and this
adds a further week's delay even if I pay promptly.
So: pay a lot more money, then wait indefinitely before paying even more
money, then wait some more for stuff to turn up. The lack of tracking or
deadline causes worry that it will never turn up. This does not bring joy.
The greatest enemy of US small businesses is US business practices,
particularly when it comes to shipping. If you impose unnecessary extra
unpredictable expense and inconvenience which tells the rest of the world
you don't really want to do business with them, don't act surprised when the
rest of the world takes their custom elsewhere.
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13 participants
participants (13)
-
Alexander Huemer -
Chris Hanson -
Chris Zach -
Chuck Guzis -
Ethan O'Toole -
Jim Brain -
Jonathan Chapman -
Ken Seefried -
Paul Koning -
Peter Corlett -
Sellam Abraham -
Sytse van Slooten -
Tom Hunter