FYI: I'm restoring an intellec 4 mod 40 from 1974. As I don't have a TTY or a high speed paper tape reader, I've made a 110 baud to serial TTL UART USB interface with handshake, and a very simple high speed paper tape reader simulator with an Arduino board. The 110/20 ma current loop interface needed some opto-isolators and a Atmel processor to do a 110 <-> 300 baud shift in both directions. (USB plug in serial ports don't appear to support 110 baud...) RealTerm then can be used as a TeleType(R) lookey-likey... Does need a bit of a front-end to respond to the 'tape advance' relay clicks... The paper tape reader currently loads a 'compiled in' HEX file, but will get expanded for a display and user interface to select 'paper tape' files from a SD card. This info can be shared... As a usable means of extracting info from paper tape the 'e-basteln' widget is quite handy... https://www.e-basteln.de/computing/papertape/ A useful source of paper tape punching is to find a big iron enthusiast with a set of 1960's kit. I've got a UK contact who's keeping an Elliott 903 going and he's made some 1" tapes from PC files. His box of tricks talks to a PC via the parallel port and a stack of TTL to 9 volt level shifters. Regards Sid -----Original Message----- From: Gavin Scott via cctalk Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2025 2:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Gavin Scott Subject: [cctalk] Re: Is there a more modern replacement for paper tape punch/reader A paper-tape reader is easy enough, just something where you manually pull the tape past an optical reader etc. I have a ~cheap diode laser cutter and on my someday get around to it list is to write a paper tape "punch" program that will cut a one foot strip of punched paper tape out of a larger piece of paper, with the possibility of using a roll of paper and manually advance it a foot at a time using the sprocket holes and some pins for alignment. On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 12:04 AM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Oh right you wanted paper tape specifically. I sketched up a design a few years ago for a punch with horizontal plates that slide in and out between the punch pins and a common, cam-driven armature. I'm an EE not ME so it never went past a sketch, but surely you could make one with a single motor to both punch and advance the tape. -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 1:35 PM Anders Nelson &lt;anders.k.nelson(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

Actual oiled paper tape that meets specs is difficult to make. You need a thick stock and the tape is impregnated with oil to lubricate the punch mechanism. The actual specs for it is available on Bitsavers. That said, old, unused paper tape seems to becoming more available on ebay as people discover it in garage sales and put it up for resale. If you are going to punch and reuse the tape a few times, then mylar tape is usable, but it will dull your punch bits. Sent from my iPhone

On 21/06/2025 21:13, ben via cctalk wrote: Which is why I suggested cassette tape as the closest practical contemporary equivalent :-)

On 22/06/2025 10:26, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: I never saw one of those, but that's the sort of thing I was as talking about. The BIOS on a lot of the 8-bit micro boards I used was agnostic as to whether it was a cassette tape interface or serial reader/punch. The only snag was that the cassette couldn't start and stop on a per-character basis so you couldn't realistically make a tape by keying as you could with paper, and you had to insert nulls on the end of a CR to allow time for processing a line that had just been input. Microsoft BASIC had a NULL command to set the number of nulls required. So how, if it could, did this Silent 700 make a keyed tape? But the real beauty of a Kansas City tape interface is you can build it yourself and use any old tape recorder. I just checked and they're £32 new on Amazon, and the cassettes are still being made. The cheapest way to get that authentic 1970's feeling. The schematics are available here: https://osiweb.org/manuals/600revB.pdf Sheet 7.  It doesn't label the chips, but they are U62 7404 (inverters), U63 7474 (D-type Flip Flops), U64 7476 (JK Flop Flops), U66 CA3130 (op amp). Plus something to generate the clock and some resistors and capacitors. All still easily available.

There were a whole bunch of cartridge / cassette systems made to record and play back RS-232 data. Sykes (made the 4912 cassette unit for Tektronix) , Memodyne, Teac, Sy/MAX and many others made them. I have a Tektronix 4923 that I've used in line with a 4006 terminal connected to a PDP-8e. Used to load / save programs etc. A bit awkward to use sometimes but it's better, and faster, than paper tape. Nice that it's vintage also.  Some of these are incremental tape drive systems and can record single characters at a time. I had a Plessey recorder that could do that though it was a 7 bit parallel system. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org

On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 3:59 AM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Incidentally there are user and service manals for assorted Silent 700 machines on bitsavers here : http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/terminal/silent_700/ Alas I've yet to find a service manual anywhere with a complete legible set of schematics, but there's a lot of useful theory-of-operation in them. The user manual for the ASR733 explains how to do key-to-tape etc. There's also the manual for the later model 765 which used bubble memory cartridges for the ASR storage. No I don't have one of those. I do have an almost-complete ASR733 and a spare ASR chassis missing the casing. The 'almost complete' is because I am missing the (external) cable between the main backplane and the ASR backplane and the wirelist is not obvious from the manuals I have. -tony

You can also look toward the industrial space. For one of my projects I used a Fanuc PPR, which is generally used in CNC machines and similar. It has both a punch and a reader and uses a serial interface. Easy to work with and very modular in its design. The disadvantage being that it looks more like something out of a vintage industrial setting than a vintage computer setting. I briefly considered building my own. A reader would be easy, but I never wrapped my brain around how I would make a reliable and durable punch. Finding tape can be difficult. There was (or maybe still is) someone on eBay selling mylar. You have to be careful of some of the paper, as there are sizes that are not 1 inch. If a truly modern replacement was fine, there are things like casduino / ardutape / tzxduino. These are devices that pretend to be an audio tape, based on an arduino. Emulating at a digital level would be even easier as many paper tape interfaces were just RS-232 or parallel. Any arduino or raspberry pi could handle that job. It just wouldn't look very vintage when you were done. Scott On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 3:29 PM Wayne S via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Pretty easy to make PPT yourself; Google 'DIY Paper Tape'. On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 6:39 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

I appreciate DIY enthusiasm, but keep this in your back pocket: I have a reader, a punch, and some blank tape. Dave Wise in Hillsboro Oregon ________________________________ From: Mike Stein via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Sent: Monday, June 23, 2025 2:34 PM To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt;rg>; bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca &lt;bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca&gt; Cc: Mike Stein &lt;mhs.stein(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Fwd: Re: Is there a more modern replacement for paper tape punch/reader Sorry, looking at some DIY PPT ideas on Youtube that's not exactly what we're looking for; I was thinking of projects that mount a cash register tape or similar on a lathe or something rotating and then cut it into thinner strips, preferably with a rotating cutter but a box cutter will do. I'm sure they're out there, I've seen them. I worked with PPT a lot back in my association with Burroughs; the 'L' series of machines used punch-once, read-many mylar tapes in an integrated reader, originally read with pins linked to the electro-mechanical keyboard with both later replaced with electronic versions. For Data I/O some models also used 'normal' paper tape in an external reader and punch, also capable of punching and reading edge-punched cards; these were later replaced with high-speed cassette drives. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Mike Stein &lt;mhs.stein(a)gmail.com&gt; Date: Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 8:59 AM Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: Is there a more modern replacement for paper tape punch/reader To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: ben &lt;bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca&gt; Pretty easy to make PPT yourself; Google 'DIY Paper Tape'. On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 6:39 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Mylar tape was indeed used in hostile environments but also elsewhere where it would be read many times, for loading programs, firmware or fixed data; the much cheaper and more fragile paper tape would usually be used for transferring or archiving data which would either be stored and archived or read once and discarded when an updated tape was made. On Mon, Jun 23, 2025 at 9:34 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

Burroughs used both type 1 and 2; the issue with the 'high speed' optical readers was not so much internal but external, when the tape would accidentally get tangled and torn. Mylar was just so much more forgiving, even after a hundred or more reads, by which time the normally fairly stiff mylar would have become as soft as a good quality toilet paper. On Tue, Jun 24, 2025 at 3:20 PM Tony Duell &lt;ard.p850ug1(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote:

On Tuesday, June 24th, 2025 at 07:59, Mike Stein via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Just thinking out loud - how well would running one of those paper rolls through a band saw to make smaller, skinny enough rolls work? The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510] WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/ Get thee down. Be thou funky.

If you believe you can bandsaw the roll to a tape width of the nominal 1.000" and that any deviation in that width is less than the code holes 0.002" transverse allowance as defined in the ANSI X3.18-1967 Standard then you have either a really nice bandsaw and a well-made cutting jig or very very steady hand. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-ca9eb746e25a5f1218b695f4e8e6…

Sure, by all means go for it. If you can make some sort of robust circumferential clamp to prevent axial sliding of the roll (think of a rolled up poster with one conical (convex) end and the other concave) due to imperfect rolling, and a resulting tape that doesn't exceed the nominal 1" width so it doesn't jam between the punch channel walls, then you'd be well on your way to possible success.

but I don't know where to get fanfold paper anymore I have an unfinished 3D print model for a 8-1/2" paper tape fanfolder I started about 6 years ago when I first got my ALDI 3D printer. It consists of two drum wheels each with a circumference of 2 x 8.5". Across the diameter, one end is a V-groove and the opposite side is an embossing V, both parallel to the axis and about 30mm wide. The two drums are identical and are geared together with a 0.5 tooth-width difference in each wheel so that the embosser part on one wheel meshes with the indented V slot of the other. The roll tape comes in from the top and passes between them, gripped by the surface of the drums by virtue of having a tennis racquet non slip grip tape applied to the drums periphery. After hand cranking 180 degrees (half a turn) the other drum's V embosser meshes to produce the opposing fold, and so the alternating process repeats. Under the drums is a catchment bucket. It could be motorised with a LEGO XL motor. I think I overcomplicated it with radius-adjustable thumbscrew blocks for the removeable V embosser and groove parts (to test different embossing edge shapes) so I put it aside but if any interest I can work on it again sometime it's just an OpenSCAD model.

The Doctor wrote: There's also an ECMA standard for punched tape, that I believe has the same specifications as the ANSI standard, and is available for free in case the ANSI document isn't. https://ecma-international.org/publications-and-standards/standards/ecma-10/ It has been put in category "Withdrawn", how's that for passive agressive? If 1970 feels too fresh, there's this: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ecma/ECMA-10_1st_Edition_November_1965.pdf

On 24/06/2025 02:01, Doc Shipley via cctalk wrote: I used "plastic" tape on an Elliott 803 in the 1970s - it was common for things like compilers as it lasted a long time. The readers didn't mind it at all but the punches weren't so keen. IIRC they were run slowly for copying to plastic and cleaned afterwards. Whether this was common practice I wouldn't know. People hereabouts might.

P.S. mylar/plastic was used for read many tapes. That is a tape that is going to be red many times and usually holds some critical program. The center sprocket really could eat up paper tapes. That’s why some material with durability was needed. Sent from my iPhone

On 2025-06-24 12:45 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote: FILM would still be better,since you have the film sprocket holes. As for punching you would need a slower but more power full punch I guess, but faster than a TTY.

On Tue, Jun 24, 2025 at 8:04 PM Wayne S via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Every paper tape punch (Teletype, Friden, DEC, Facit, Data Dynamics...) I have punches the sprocket holes along with the data holes. Some need a bit of help (pull the tape by hand) to get started on a new roll of tape, but once it starts punching properly it will continue to do so until the roll runs out. -tony

On 24/06/2025 20:16, Wayne S wrote: My experience is the same as Waynes - I've never seen a punch that didn't punch the sprocket hole and I've never seen one that required one. Perhaps it's an American thing (reminder: I'm in the UK, where Paper Tape was king). This would have been everything Creed, Elliott and later Teletype (e.g. ASR33) and probably a few I can't remember. I've never even seen pre-punched tape. I'm suspect some optical readers didn't require it as the tape was advanced using a pinch roller until a non-null punch was received. Regards, Frank.

Interesting that some readers didn't require the sprocket hole. Whilst I can appreciate that they didn't mechanically drive on it, I assumed they'd use it as a clock signal to sample the data levels. Even that could be avoided, but then a nul would be indistinguishable from the space between punch positions. Did they make nul an illegal character, or determine it using a flywheel sync ? I appreciate there were out-of-band ASCII characters such as EOT but weren't there binary format tapes too ? On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 11:29 AM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 10:49 PM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Actually it isn't. It's 3 data holes from one edge of the tape in both cases. So take that edge as one reference and have an adustable guide for the other edge My guess is that the machine it was connected to ignored nuls so it could run the reader flat out, but other caracters had to be processed. This sounds like an Elliot optical reader, or maybe a Trend. Those can run continously if you engage the pinch roller solenoid, alternatively you can control the solenoid (and the brake) to step the tape a character at a time. And FWIW both of those readers need sprocket holes. -tony

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 11:29 AM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Are you mis-reading the attrbutions? I thought Wayne (in the States) said the punches he used required tape with pre-punched sprocket holes/ I (tony), in the UK, have never seen one that does. In fact, thinking about it, many Facit punches couldn't use tape with pre-punched sprocket holes. They punch the sprocket hole in the same die block as the data holes. But they feed the tape using a capstan/pinch roller. So pre-punched tape would be almost imposible to line up with the punches and keep lined up. Due to manufacturing tolerances, the tape is not going to feed by exactly 1 hole spacing (on the pre-punched tape) after each character in a unit like this. The Fact 4070 has 3 manual feed switches. One feeds totally unpunched tape. Another feeds tape with the feed holes punched. And a third feeds tape feed holes and a user-defined (by links/diodes on the control PCB) character on the data holes (the factory setting is to punch the lot). Some punches, the Teletype BRPE being an example, punch the tape, including the sprocket holes and then feed it with a sprocket a little further along the tape path. These will work on totally unpunched tape. When you load a new reel of tape you have to get it feeding, then help the tape along by hand. The first bi of the tape will be completely mis-spaced but after a couple of inches the holes will start ot align with the sprocket teeth and it'll be fne from then on. -tony

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 3:49 PM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: The Teletype model 33ASR can backspace the punch for overpunching a character. In such machines the tape is fed by a sprocket wheel, the teeth of which engage in the feed holes of the tape. This is positioned after the punch die assembly. So such a punch needs a bit of help to start it off on a new reel of unpunched tape but once it has started punching holes properly it will carry on. It could use tape with pre-punched feed holes, but equally it can use unpunched tape. -tony

On Fri, Jun 27, 2025 at 5:09 PM Frank Leonhardt via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: The Creed 444 scanned manual I have says 'ITT Creed' on it (and the address is given as Brighton, not Croydon). I think ITT owned Creed at that pont The Creed 444 can also backspace the punch (and will use unpunched tape). Yes, the main use of this facility was to immediately correct a typo by backspacing the tape and overpunching the incorrect character with all holes. You didn't need to rewind the tape if you only have 1/10" of it to bother about. -tony

My only recollection of the prepunched sprocket hole tapes was that we ( large newspaper) got the tapes in a box of 12 reels. The reels were joined together, so the end of one reel was joined to the start of the next reel. I do remember seeing boxes lying at the base of Linotype machines. I think they were also at the base of teletypes that some of the typists used to generate the feed to the Linos. This was in 1973 when i interned for a summer. Sorry, but memory is fuzzy. I do remember that there were many pallets of the stuff. The paper was had started phasing out the Linotype machines but they still had over 60 of them. Sent from my iPhone

For me, back in the day on my Coco, it would have been a CCR like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/336028139332 There's really no magic, it's an audio cassette recorder with an extra input to start/stop the motor. You may find tapes to be a little unreliable these days -- the cassettes themselves can break down, belts inside the player can break, and there was about a decade where rollers were used that have now turned into tar-like goo. If you want to know how to interface an audio tape, then you can look at some other vintage computer projects and adapt them: * Craig's SBC-85 tape board: https://bitsofthegoldenage.org/documentation/sbc-85-cassette-tape-interface… (this one makes use of the SI/SO on the 8085, so maybe not so easily generalized to other CPUs, unless you add your own UART) * Norberto's H8 serial/cassette board: https://koyado.com/heathkit/New-H8-Website/h8-z5-4-serial-console-cassette-… (this one comes with a UART) You can also find schematics for computers that used a tape, such as the TRS-80 Coco. There's lots of old 8-bit computers that used tapes. Even the original IBM PC had a tape interface built in (though it was rarely used). You will have a bit of work, in both software and hardware, to adapt one of these existing designs. For a terminal, I typically use some variation of this: https://maccasoft.com/en/electronics/vga-serial-terminal/ Scott On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 6:19 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

as delivered, the cassette interface on the trs-80 model 1 did not work well, but there were software and hardware fixes that helped a lot. On Sat, Jun 21, 2025 at 11:44 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: -- --Carey

I wrote a tool to make 5-level Baudot, 8-level ASCII, Whirlwind, chadless etc. paper tape using a home CNC vinyl/stencil cutter https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf I saw another similar utility on Hackaday that uses a laser, but it did not have as many format options. https://hackaday.com/2025/01/29/paper-tape-with-lasers/ Steve.

Laser would catch the mylar on fire or melt it at least, i’m thinking. Sent from my iPhone

P.S. I have some experience imaging on Computer to Plate machines using lasers. It’s more difficult than it sounds. Lasers create a lot of issues. Sent from my iPhone

Oh, uh, I guess we're done lol Incredible work and writeup! Any chance you'll post the 3D files so readers can build it? =D -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 8:29 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

I like how he made the paper. Sent from my iPhone

If toggling the laser isn't doable, then you could use a shutter. If the shutter can't handle the heat, then a mirror that deflects the beam. On Sun, 22 Jun 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I think you could get around any potential damage by running the tape between 2 thin flat pieces of metal that had holes drilled vertically that lined up with the laser. Would have to determine what power laser was needed, if you needed more than one laser to get speed — maybe one for each hole. Also would have to have a way to toggle the laser on and off. Would have to get a laser that could be toggled, most are made to be run continuously. Even pulsed are almost continuous. Maybe figure out a way to block the light instead of turning it off. The logic would be easier with a toggle. > > You made me think about this a lor😀 > > Sent from my iPhon> >> On Jun 22, 2025, at 14:16, Wayne S &lt;wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >> Laser would catch the mylar on fire or melt it at least, i’m thinking. >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>> On Jun 22, 2025, at 14:09, Anders Nelson via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: >>> >>> I would love to see someone create a galvo-laser system for punching >>> paper/mylar tape. On Aliexpress you can get a galvo set for (all prices >>> USD) ~$30, a 10W laser head for $40, and I expect making a stepper-motor >>> driven capstan wouldn't be too hard for someone with the time. Then add a >>> low-speed fan attached to a 3D printed tape guide with a slit for chad >>> suction/collection and fume exhaust. Not sure what kind of anvil/platform >>> you need for a laser beam - maybe just the uncoated side of a ceramic floor >>> tile sitting at an angle in the chad chute to absorb the laser energy, with >>> the platform having a void sized for the punching area. >>> >>> I imagine the whole thing could be pretty compact and wicked fast! >>> >>> -- >>> Anders Nelson >>> www.andersknelson.com >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Jun 22, 2025 at 9:24 AM steven(a)malikoff.com steven--- via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: >>> >>>>> On 06/21/2025 11:47 PM AEST Gavin Scott via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: >>>>> A paper-tape reader is easy enough, just something where you manually >>>>> pull the tape past an optical reader etc. >>>>> >>>>> I have a ~cheap diode laser cutter and on my someday get around to it >>>>> list is to write a paper tape "punch" program that will cut a one foot >>>>> strip of punched paper tape out of a larger piece of paper, with the >>>>> possibility of using a roll of paper and manually advance it a foot at >>>>> a time using the sprocket holes and some pins for alignment. >>>> >>>> I wrote a tool to make 5-level Baudot, 8-level ASCII, Whirlwind, chadless >>>> etc. paper tape using a home CNC vinyl/stencil cutter >>>> https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf >>>> >>>> I saw another similar utility on Hackaday that uses a laser, but it did >>>> not have as many format options. >>>> https://hackaday.com/2025/01/29/paper-tape-with-lasers/ >>>> >>>> Steve. >>>> >

What is a "galvo-laser"? A lot of Aliexpress stuff is a total fake, it this one of them? paul

On 2025-06-22 6:12 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote: You need German know how. :) Zuse used that in 1941 on the Z3. Ben.