I am with Murray on this one. Maybe because of the WWW and not via Gopher nor BBS led some of us to discover cctalk. Regards, Tarek Hoteit

On Wed, 3 May 2023, Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: FidoNet is still a thing too. I'm the NC of Net 138. (which sadly, is now just myself and a couple of other nodes.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On Thu, 4 May 2023, Mike Katz wrote: While there are still some nodes running on POTS, it's mostly over IP these days. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On 04/05/2023 14:59, geneb via cctalk wrote: So is USENET. Julf

On 5/4/2023 10:35 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: I was going to jump in and say this but you beat me to it. I am involved in stuff on USENET all the time.  Many groups have been destroyed and are pretty much useless but many of them are still going strong. bill

It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still runs one. Pat On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 1:49 PM Johan Helsingius via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

On Thu, 4 May 2023, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: You can get free access via http://www.eternal-september.org/, however they don't carry any binary groups. (no loss really) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On Thu, 4 May 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: That's OK. Any flamewars that you were reading are probably still active.

On 04/05/2023 22:46, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: I guess the site is called eternal-september for a reason :) Julf

On May 4, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: What about eternal-september.org? -- Chris

Thanks! Wow, they even provide UUCP batches! Julf On 04/05/2023 20:00, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

True but I don't miss 53K bps analog POTS modem speeds. My Internet varies between 700Mbps and 950Mbps.  I don't miss analog modem days in the least.  There is no nostalgia there. I consider analog modems similar to out houses.  An interesting historical factoid but not something to be missed🤣.   Or even reminisce about. On 5/4/2023 3:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

On 2023-05-04 2:31 p.m., Mike Katz via cctalk wrote: How ever the people still use them. Fast internet is only good about 1? km from the router. Other than Netflix or Multiplayer games, what is really high speed internet needed for? Ben.

I beg to differ with you. I get download speeds over 100 Mbps regularly.  A lot of download speed is dependent on the site being downloaded from's upload speed. Also, having very high speed internet allows for streaming on multiple devices.  Like when my wife watching something on the Roku TV and I'm in a zoom meeting. On 5/5/2023 12:44 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:

No doubt many folks do have a need for speed but FWIW I get by fine with 6 Mbps D/L speed, streaming Youtube and local cable channels, browsing the web, email & fora, etc.; I've also got a fall-back 56K toll-free dial-up option which is still good for email and messaging when broadband is not available. Occasionally a bit more speed would be nice when downloading a particularly large file, but that's a good excuse to get up & stretch my legs, make a coffee or tea, or just sit outside getting some sun and fresh air. The best part is that together with my cell phone it only costs me C$ 50/mo. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 3:03 PM Tony Jones via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

Toll-free dial-up and the landline were very handy at my cottage, where the only moderately high-speed option was expensive satellite or microwave access. I also worked from home at the cottage; fortunately it only involved text-only remote access which also worked remarkably well at 56K; large file transfers (off-line backups etc.) ran at night. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:41 PM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

On 2023-05-05 1:02 p.m., Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: True, until the last few years, I was on dial up speeds. Nice to have bandwidth for all UPDATES OS's think you need. The only really big download I have done for all the old DR WHO episodes. Now if I could find that link again. Ben. tagline "Don't you love FTL download speeds"

I think you might be surprised by how many people still have to use dial-up; at my cottage there is no cable service and high-speed fibre is finally just being installed this year as the area becomes more populous. Cell coverage is spotty, so a local hotspot is not always available or reliable and also not very fast, and satellite/microwave access is not affordable for everyone. m On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 4:48 PM Tony Jones via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:

When we moved to this house 33 years ago, there was no cable (still isn't available), and wired POTS was it. About 12 wire miles from the CO, so 56K was just a dream. Maybe 15 years ago, I was approached by the local telco because they wanted to replaced deteriorating buried copper with fiber and needed some land for a terminal. I sold them about 300 sq. ft. that I didn't even know that I owned. They poured a concrete pad and set up some boxes on it. Initially, connection was 5 Mbps; a few years ago, I was offered 20 for a lifetime rate of USD$40/month. It was gradually bumped up to about 55 Mbps. It works for me--if I wanted to pay more, I could get 100. This is a rural area. If I go a half-mile up the road, the people there are still 12-13 wire miles from the CO with no broadband at all. If that weren't enough, cell coverage there is maybe a bar-and-a-half of 2G. Some use satellite, but during windy or wet weather, I understand that their speed falls to nearly worthless. Lots of big evergreen (Doug-fir and Ponderosa pine) trees here to lay waste to comms. A utility from a county south of here has been stringing fiber along the road, which has promise--but no estimates of when connectivity will be available. People evidently don't recall the bad old days of POTS where calls outside of your calling area was billed as long-distance and reception was noisy and slow. Back then, a leased line connected to a 208 modem would run you about 5 kilobucks/month for 4800 bps, sync. --Chuck

On 2023-05-05 2:48 p.m., Tony Jones via cctalk wrote: You know a MOOSE could just walk and read this. You don't want a angry MOOSE. ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣤⡤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⢊⡾⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡏⠸⠦⠤⣤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡦⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣼⢡⠀⠀⣰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⢦⡀⢸⡇⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡏⢸⠀⠀⠈⢹⡇⠀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣤⣤⠀⠀⢸⠳⠼⠀⠙⠛⢁⡿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣷⢸⣄⣀⠀⠈⠉⢉⣩⠿⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡟⠀⠙⠒⠛⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡼⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⣞⠿⣿⠂⠀⠀⣸⡅⠀⠀⠀⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣾⠟⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣠⠟⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠘⢲⣄⠘⢳⣄⠀⠀⡞⣟⠀⢀⣼⠟⠛⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⣻⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⣄⣀⣀⠼⠋⠉⠈⠉⢉⡷⠶⣛⣀⣈⣉⠉⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣤⠶⠚⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⡤⠚⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⣷⣿⣅⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠓⠒⠒⠚⠛⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⣠⠞⠁⠀⠀⢀⣶⡦⠄⠀⠀⠉⢿⠻⢭⣶⣶⢤⡤⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢀⡼⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠳⢤⣠⣴⠾⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢰⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣦⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⠢⢤⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠸⣧⠀⣀⣴⢀⣤⣠⠤⠴⠖⠛⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠉⠉⠉⠙⠢⢄⣀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠙⢶⣿⣟⡽⠋⢸⢰⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉⠙⠒⢤⣤⣄⣀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠈⠁⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⢦⡀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⡇⣿⢠⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⠢⡀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠙⢿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡀⠘⡆ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡽⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢹⠀⣹ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣧⣿⢢⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⡾⠋ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠹⢿⣸⣇⠀⠀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡿⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠻⣟⠦⣷⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢘⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣾⠁⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠁⠀⢹⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣠⠞⢥⠤⠶⠶⢦⣀⣀⣀⡤⠶⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠹⣆⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⢀⡾⠁⠀⣼⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⢻⡓⠲⣄⡀⠀⠈⣇⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢰⡏⠀⠀⢀⡜⣇⠀⠀⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⢠⡏⢻⠀⠀⡏⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡇⠀⣴⠋⠀⠈⢧⠀⡇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣼⠀⠸⡆⠀⡇⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠃⢰⠃⠀⠀⠀⠸⡆⢻⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡇⢠⡇⠀⠀⣧⠀⡇⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠏⢀⡎⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣧⠸⡆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣼⠁⣼⠀⠀⠀⣿⠀⡇⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡞⠀⡞⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢹⠀⣇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢠⡏⢠⡇⠀⠀⠀⣿⠀⢷⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠁⣼⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⢸⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡟⠀⢼⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⠀⠸⡆ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡴⠁⢰⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣸⠀⠈⣧⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣾⣀⣲⡟⠂⠀⠀⠀⣿⠀⣀⣷ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⠜⠁⠀⡏⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣰⣯⣤⣽⠃⠀⠀⠀⢠⣯⣮⣼⠏⠀⠀⠀⢀⣽⣥⠼⡇⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡴⣏⣀⡴⠟⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠚⠒⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⠛⠓⠚⠁⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⣛⣗⢚⠃⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ The real catch with the internet was getting a local provider that did not charge a arm and a leg for any service. When BBS's where around, long distance was still $1.00 a minute. Ben. ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀

On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 1:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: I took the question as more "why do you need a gigabit"? Comcast had kept slowly bumping us up over the term of several contracts, from 600mbit to 1200mbit and as I said, I use the speed mostly for work. We just cut the knot and got rid of cable TV but I'm pretty sure Netflix says one 4K stream requires less than 25mbit/sec.

On 2023-05-05 2:06 p.m., Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: REAL BDS'S COME ON MAGNETIC TAPE. BEN @ 110 BAUD.

On 5/5/2023 3:33 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: Wow, magnetic tape, how modern.  What about paper tape or punch cards (Holerith if you are old enough to remember that name). Also if we are talking about download speeds and protocols what about Carrier Pigeon Internet Protocol (CPIP or IPoCP).  This encompasses RFC-1149 & amended by  RFC-2549.  A carrier pigeon carrying a 1TB USB memory stick and flying at 40MPH (2/3's of it's maximum speed) for 40 miles would yield a data rate of 305,419,896 bps.  Not bad for analog🤣 And for some more nostalgia: 4.5MB of punch cards (approx. 334 lbs):

I do remember the bad old days, when even a leased line was insufficiently fast or reliable to send a quantity of data. I recall many times taking the "noon balloon" out of San Jose with my Samsonite carry-on case and not so much as a toothbrush. On arrival, turn the contents of the case over to someone waiting at the gate, and catch the next flight home with an empty case. My case, which I still have, comfortably accommodates six 10.5" reels of tape. I remember flying on an USAF general's plane with several 844 disk packs. One time, I forgot my B-area badge, so the general gave me his. Nobody saluted, however. --Chuck

The iconic quote was Tannenbaum's "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway." On Fri, 5 May 2023, steve shumaker via cctalk wrote:

Chuck, Did you at least get a bag peanuts on the flight? Ken On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 11:20 AM David Barto via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: -- End of line JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey

Did you ever choose the mystery meal? Regards, Tarek Hoteit

Salisbury is the place in England where they used to dump the unusable remnants of the animals that went to slaughter. Sellam On Sun, May 7, 2023 at 12:18 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

The main problem with that lorry hurtling down the freeway is latency..... I need to move 1 PB ..... how long will it take filling and packing enough IBM LTO-9 tapes to send 1 PB ? How long does it takes to fill 1 tape with 18 TB ?

Stefan, Back it up to floppy diskettes. HaHa. Sorry I could not resist. -Ken On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 5:18 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: -- End of line JOB TERMINATED

I remember making those lines, but they were more for a crash across the room on the way from the 082 sorter to the 077 collator. Gawd, I still remember those numbers, some 60 years later; so why can't I remember my thirty-year old cell phone number... On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 3:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On 2023-10-02 4:36 p.m., Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: I never could figure out how to call myself, so I have no need to remember it. BTW the last time I have seen a phone book was about 25 years ago.

On 2023-10-02 1:15 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Also EAST / WEST , in case of data collision. :)

AT&T recently ran a fiber line along the boulevard adjacent to the farm. The hold-up in ordering service is that they want a state-issued identification, which I don't have, and don't want to have. Their most incredibly obnoxiously stupid reason for this is (and I kid you not) "you will have our modem". Oh, I'm sorry, are you worried about your stupid $15 piece of plastic from China? No, it's not that, it's something sinister, and the rep is either told to give a stupid answer or truly believes the stupid answer they were told to give. I can easily get around the issue, but then, I've really always hated AT&T, because Ma Bell birthed Big Brother, and I'm sure that's the real reason they want to know who is connecting up to their service. I invested much time and trouble over the years getting away from them, only to eventually end up back under AT&T after they gobbled up every provider I signed up with to get away from them. This latest episode reminds me why I always tried to stay away from that garbage corporation. That being said, it's really hard to justify sticking with my shitty cellphone service as my internet gateway when I'm being tempted with cheap 300Mpbs bandwidth. The 5G "upgrade" was just a bait & switch: reception is no better than with the old 4G/LTE service, and dropouts as just as frequent. All these corporations are damned dirty shit-eating liars. This thread is thoroughly off-topic, but since we're here, I needed to vent. Sellam On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 9:38 PM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote:

On Thu, May 4, 2023, 6:59 AM geneb via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Sadly, the node lists are super out of date... Warner g.

Fidonet is def. a thing. There is a New Zealand group- FSXnet - that I found when researching how to actually _join_ a Fidonet network. Docs for this from the pov of someone that has never done it are few. I.E. it seem very hard to find direction to join into Fidonet unless you are already there. https://fsxnet.nz/fsxnet/join This was done because I am setting up a BBS on a Macintosh SE running System 6. There is a modern BBS being written today (in C) called SubText BBS that can connect up to Fidonet (I connected to FSX net after signing up and getting a node assignment.). It's cool to get the network messages from all over the globe on your local BBS. https://jcs.org/subtext My BBS is up: telnet to-> bbs.diller.org login as guest. It's running on a SE w/ 4MB ram. Setting this up and getting things going was a fun diversion and using a Mac SE for it was a blast as well. On Fidonet? Send me some mail: massive@21:3/178 thanks, -andy