24 Sep
2024
24 Sep
'24
9:57 p.m.
I feel a little silly asking this, I hope it is not an overly inappropriate
request for this mailing list.
But does anyone here in the States happen to have a stack of known-good
5.25 disks they don't want anymore? And more specifically, would it be
possible for anyone to image such a disk with a copy of PC-DOS 2.0 or
earlier? (and maybe on up to 3.3 or so)
The later part is the service that would be more helpful to me. I finally
have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory cartridges
to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using these external
drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image of IBM PC-DOS
(and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need some kind of
proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank disk would be
good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory cartridges to
initialize disks accordingly).
An actual 160KB formatted PC DOS 1.0 would be fantastic to have on hand -
but the 180KB slightly later image would be fine also (and then also to
experiment how far "past 2.0" that this system might support, if at all).
For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north Texas. When I got these
drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore - and
even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on there (did
anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 versions of
those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for USB? :D ).
Thanks,
SteveL
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:24 p.m.
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
But does anyone here in the States happen to have a
stack of known-good
5.25 disks they don't want anymore?
Sorry, not right now
have a drive for an old system that currently uses
bubble memory
cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using
these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image
of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need
some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank
disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory
cartridges to initialize disks accordingly).
What kind of drive is it?
If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of
proprietary Sharp DOS.
If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own
customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31
Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't
support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30
(did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive?
I have a couple 3.5
versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for
USB? :D ).
a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external
brick)
There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare.
There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified
3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25.
(still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal)
But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on
it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days
before the 5170, the machine didn't really care,
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
11:07 p.m.
Hey Steve!
I have quite a few DSDD 5.25" disks in inventory right now. I bought a
bunch from a military surplus store online a few years back and those disks
have proven to be very reliable. I'd be glad to make any disk that you
need. I do quite a bit of disk archiving and I have quite a few drives
for just about any project. It will only take me a few minutes to make any
disk.
Just email me directly and we can go from there. I'll just need to be
pointed to the disk images that you want to use. I'm in Utah.
travispierce70(a)gmail.com
Travis
On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 8:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
But does anyone here in the States happen to have
a stack of known-good
5.25 disks they don't want anymore?
Sorry, not right now
have a drive for an old system that currently
uses bubble memory
cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using
these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image
of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need
some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank
disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory
cartridges to initialize disks accordingly).
What kind of drive is it?
If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of
proprietary Sharp DOS.
If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own
customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31
Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't
support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30
(did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25"
drive? I have a couple 3.5
versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for
USB? :D ).
a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external
brick)
There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare.
There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified
3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25.
(still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal)
But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on
it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days
before the 5170, the machine didn't really care,
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
25 Sep
25 Sep
12:19 a.m.
Actually - in the Sharp advertisement, they "name drop" Microsoft
explicitly - so perhaps I misspoke in mentioning IBM's PC-DOS (but if we're
making disks, I'd just try to have both ready just in case). I've not
yet opened the external drive enclosure to investigate specific model/parts
(I'm very curious about the controller and how it differs from the standard
IBM ISA disk drive controller, but there is some difference since a 37-pin
drive that worked in my 5150 wouldn't work with this Sharp).
I'm generally clumsy with hardware (in a "oops, dropped that cup of screws
all onto the board while it was powered on" kind of way- maybe not that
bad, but enough to know to go slow and enjoy what I have for a bit first,
before I open it and screw it all up; my biggest regret was on a 1996
ThinkPad - it was running OS/2 just fine on a handsome solid state proxy
IDE, but I didn't like the color fade on the bezel of the CD-ROM, and just
"had" to going back in and address that - and that system has never booted
since). Point being, I'd like to try some disk first before tinkering
inside this drive enclosure. The host system is this: <
https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000 > which I hope to finally prepare a
broader video about it before the end of this year.
And - oh, depending on the controller, we might be able to adapt a 720K
drive onto it? I see, that'd be an interesting mod. But not yet - gotta
try as-is first. This Sharp is a tad confusing (or it was to me). I had
the impression that the DOS was built into the ROM - but no, it's actually
copied/placed onto each of the bubble memory cartridges, so it is always
"booting" to DOS like a "normal" system. Also in my notes - i may
have to
revise on if the BASIC is built-in or not. It's "built into" one of the
ROM cartridges you place into the bottom of the system. So it's not
technically a "boot to BASIC" system either (I'm not sure if that excused
them from Microsoft licensing in some way??). Or actually - I'll have to
unplug that cartridge and remind myself what all the system can do on its
own (as I recall, in doing so, it does "boot" into a self-running demo
mode).
I hope it's not too much of a lost cause - I think I do recall coming
across an article that mentioned that the system could be booted from the
external floppy. And if it could miraculously boot to something like DOS
3.2 - well, I can't think of any program of that era that would play nice
with an 8 row screen. But that's the goal here, to just see what
happens. In the worse case, this will mean I can make a backup of all the
content of these bubble memory cartridges content, just in case they start
to deteriorate in some way (that said - since it does have a "built in"
BASIC, I suppose technically I can do a BASIC that invokes the serial port
and I could export every file that way; thumbing through the manual it does
have some keywords that might accommodate that -- I'll save that as a last
resort).
And Thank You Travis, I'll be in contact!!
-Steve
On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 10:00 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
But does anyone here in the States happen to have
a stack of known-good
5.25 disks they don't want anymore?
Sorry, not right now
have a drive for an old system that currently
uses bubble memory
cartridges to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using
these external drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image
of IBM PC-DOS (and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need
some kind of proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank
disk would be good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory
cartridges to initialize disks accordingly).
What kind of drive is it?
If it boots to PC-DOS 2.00, not MS-DOS 2.00, then it is not some kind of
proprietary Sharp DOS.
If Sharp, or whoever made your machine, ever did provide their own
customized MS-DOS, it was likely to be versions 1.25, 2.11, or 3.31
Many OEMs added 3.5 support in MS-DOS 2.00 amd 2.11. PC-DOS didn't
support 720K until PC-DOS 3.20, and 1.4M 2ith 3.30
(did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25"
drive? I have a couple 3.5
versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for
USB? :D ).
a few minor problems, in addition to power (easily solved with a external
brick)
There did once exist a few, but they are VERY rare.
There were also some with cooperative circuitry, that had an unmodified
3.5 drive in them that could be recabled to 5.25.
(still a few gotchas to deal with, such as "Disk changed" signal)
But, if you have a functioning 720K 3.5, you could put early 5.25 DOS on
it, even down to 1.00, and just use the first 40 tracks. In the days
before the 5170, the machine didn't really care,
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
4:41 p.m.
The Sharp PC-5000 was definitely MS-DOS, not PC-DOS.
PC-DOS, however might work on it! or at least almost.
BUT, some of the supplied programs will be different.
For example, MODE.COM will be significantly different.
The PC-7000 was reasonably PC compatible.
The PC-5000 was VERY similar to the Gavilan.
The Gavilan came with an 8 line display, and later a 16 line display.
But, it also had an RCA phono jack to connect to an external compostie
monitor!
Gavilan had optional bubble memory cartridges, but that never caught on.
They had a thermal/ink printer that could attach to the backside. (plain
paper with a ribbon, or thermaal paper, or excellent quality using thermal
paper with the ribbon.
Yhey had an external 5.25" drive, and a clip-on second 3.5" drive.
The first Gavilans were 3" disks, but they soon changed to 3.5"
The drives were single sided, with a custom bezel, but that bezel could be
easily mounted on Shugart SA350 to instaall in place of the stock
drive, for double sided.
The Gavilan started off with a modified MS-DOS 2.00.
The Gavilan 3.5" disk format was NOT the same as PC-DOS 3.20 format,
initially. But, by their MS-DOS 2.11, with revision L (released after the
company had closed down!), the format was matched to IBM's.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Actually - in the Sharp advertisement, they "name
drop" Microsoft
explicitly - so perhaps I misspoke in mentioning IBM's PC-DOS (but if we're
making disks, I'd just try to have both ready just in case). I've not
yet opened the external drive enclosure to investigate specific model/parts
(I'm very curious about the controller and how it differs from the standard
IBM ISA disk drive controller, but there is some difference since a 37-pin
drive that worked in my 5150 wouldn't work with this Sharp).
I'm generally clumsy with hardware (in a "oops, dropped that cup of screws
all onto the board while it was powered on" kind of way- maybe not that
bad, but enough to know to go slow and enjoy what I have for a bit first,
before I open it and screw it all up; my biggest regret was on a 1996
ThinkPad - it was running OS/2 just fine on a handsome solid state proxy
IDE, but I didn't like the color fade on the bezel of the CD-ROM, and just
"had" to going back in and address that - and that system has never booted
since). Point being, I'd like to try some disk first before tinkering
inside this drive enclosure. The host system is this: <
https://voidstar.blog/sharp-pc-5000 > which I hope to finally prepare a
broader video about it before the end of this year.
And - oh, depending on the controller, we might be able to adapt a 720K
drive onto it? I see, that'd be an interesting mod. But not yet - gotta
try as-is first. This Sharp is a tad confusing (or it was to me). I had
the impression that the DOS was built into the ROM - but no, it's actually
copied/placed onto each of the bubble memory cartridges, so it is always
"booting" to DOS like a "normal" system. Also in my notes - i may
have to
revise on if the BASIC is built-in or not. It's "built into" one of the
ROM cartridges you place into the bottom of the system. So it's not
technically a "boot to BASIC" system either (I'm not sure if that excused
them from Microsoft licensing in some way??). Or actually - I'll have to
unplug that cartridge and remind myself what all the system can do on its
own (as I recall, in doing so, it does "boot" into a self-running demo
mode).
I hope it's not too much of a lost cause - I think I do recall coming
across an article that mentioned that the system could be booted from the
external floppy. And if it could miraculously boot to something like DOS
3.2 - well, I can't think of any program of that era that would play nice
with an 8 row screen. But that's the goal here, to just see what
happens. In the worse case, this will mean I can make a backup of all the
content of these bubble memory cartridges content, just in case they start
to deteriorate in some way (that said - since it does have a "built in"
BASIC, I suppose technically I can do a BASIC that invokes the serial port
and I could export every file that way; thumbing through the manual it does
have some keywords that might accommodate that -- I'll save that as a last
resort).
And Thank You Travis, I'll be in contact!!
-Steve
7:51 a.m.
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north
Texas. When I got these
drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore - and
even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on there (did
anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5 versions of
those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for USB? :D ).
From the software's point of view the drives are the same (with different
limits of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted 3.5" HD medium for
80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it
for use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support 3.5" drives and it booted
from that disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD drive as a 5.25"
HD drive.
However whatever the circuitry the USB-to-FDD adapter has, it has to
provide a way to set track and sector count with the drive behind, but I
guess it has to anyway to support 720kB (and maybe 2.88MB) 3.5" medium if
nothing else.
As someone else pointed out power can be supplied externally and data can
be wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using corresponding .1"
pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for
the drive at the same address (or an equivalent purpose-made cable).
NB this is based on my past experience with original floppy disk drives
and not any USB-to-FDD adapters, in a hope that it will help. Good luck!
Maciej
7:57 a.m.
On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote:
As someone else pointed out power can be supplied
externally and data can
be wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using corresponding .1"
pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for
the drive at the same address (or an equivalent purpose-made cable).
Umm, I realised this will be the wrong gender as I suppose an USB-to-FDD
adapter will have the PCB pin header connector soldered directly. So a
purpose-made cable will be needed and it will require parts and tools.
Maciej
1:24 p.m.
Only related to the subject, not the body of the discussion:
I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have
any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a
shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether they're
readable.
Van Snyder
2229 Shields Street
La Crescenta, CA 91214
8:11 p.m.
I'll take that offer, thanks Van!
And in general, about this experiment:
Reviewing my notes when I last explored into this, a little over a year ago:
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/sharp-ce-510f-disk-drive-looking-…
It mentions: 360KB, 9 sector/track, DS/DD.
But also, it mentions a peculiar Sharp model number for disk media,
specifically "MS-DOS CE-101F"
I've so far been unable to find an image of their stock OS, and so I'm just
hoping/gambling some distro of either PC-DOS or MS-DOS might work.
And their interface on this is a 37-pin, but digging into that (see notes
in the link above) I think some of the pins used ended up being different
than the pin out described in the IBM manuals for the IBM 5150's standard
disk drive controller (that also has a 37-pin connector at the back of
it). By reading, it seems pin 4, 6, 10, and 34 were different (but I'm not
tech h/w savvy enough to deduce yet if it's just different ordering, or
truly different signals along the wiring)
One other thing - I think the PC-5000 on bootup (with the cartridges) I
recall it saying DOS 2.01 or possibly 2.11 - I don't have the machine near
me at the moment, but in a few days I'll be able to check again.
-Steve
On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 12:24 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Only related to the subject, not the body of the
discussion:
I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have
any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a
shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether they're
readable.
Van Snyder
2229 Shields Street
La Crescenta, CA 91214
8:58 p.m.
Pin 4 is "Head Load"
Pin 6 can be either "Ready" or drive select 4
Pin 10 is drive select for first drive.
Pin 34 is "READY", or "Disk Changed", or fourth drive selrct (TRS80)
BUT, IBM PC puts a twist in the cable (pins 10 - 16?), and does selection
by the cable with all drives jumpered to be second drive. Drive A: is
after the twist; drive B: is before the twist.
https://superuser.com/questions/849079/what-is-the-little-twist-in-this-flo…
So, at the very least, you will need to make up a cable.
possibly a straight cable, and jumper the drive as A: !
https://archive.org/stream/TNM_Sharp_PC-5000_portable_computer_-_Sharp_Elec…
says that CE-101F is a "System disk" (bootable)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> I'll take that offer, thanks Van!
>
>
> And in general, about this experiment:
>
> Reviewing my notes when I last explored into this, a little over a year ago:
>
https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/sharp-ce-510f-disk-drive-looking-…
>
> It mentions: 360KB, 9 sector/track, DS/DD.
>
> But also, it mentions a peculiar Sharp model number for disk media,
> specifically "MS-DOS CE-101F"
> I've so far been unable to find an image of their stock OS, and so I'm just
> hoping/gambling some distro of either PC-DOS or MS-DOS might work.
>
> And their interface on this is a 37-pin, but digging into that (see notes
> in the link above) I think some of the pins used ended up being different
> than the pin out described in the IBM manuals for the IBM 5150's standard
> disk drive controller (that also has a 37-pin connector at the back of
> it). By reading, it seems pin 4, 6, 10, and 34 were different (but I'm not
> tech h/w savvy enough to deduce yet if it's just different ordering, or
> truly different signals along the wiring)
>
>
>
> One other thing - I think the PC-5000 on bootup (with the cartridges) I
> recall it saying DOS 2.01 or possibly 2.11 - I don't have the machine near
> me at the moment, but in a few days I'll be able to check again.
>
>
> -Steve
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 12:24 PM Van Snyder via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Only related to the subject, not the body of the discussion:
>>
>> I found a stack of 5.25" floppies for Norton Utilities. I don't have
>> any 5.25" drives. If you want the disks, they're yours for a PDF of a
>> shipping label for 8"x10"x1" 8oz. I have no idea whether
they're
>> readable.
>>
>> Van Snyder
>> 2229 Shields Street
>> La Crescenta, CA 91214
>>
>>
>>
3:01 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: 25 September 2024 12:51
To: Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Steve Lewis <lewissa78(a)gmail.com>om>; Maciej W. Rozycki
<macro(a)orcam.me.uk>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: request for 5.25 floppies
On Tue, 24 Sep 2024, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
> For shipping/delivery purposes, I'm in north Texas. When I got these
> drives, I then realized I no longer have any 5.25 floppies anymore -
> and even if I did, then I'm not quite sure how to get the images on
> there (did anyone ever make a "USB-to-5.25" drive? I have a couple 3.5
> versions of those - maybe the power to motor the 5.25 is too much for
USB? :D
).
There are several USB to floppy tools that interface to floppies at a low
level and which can be used to read/write images. This is one:-
https://github.com/keirf/greaseweazle/wiki
Dave
G4UGM
From the software's point of view the drives are the same (with different
limits
of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted
3.5" HD medium for
80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it
for
use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support
3.5" drives and it booted from
that
disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD
drive as a 5.25"
HD drive.
However whatever the circuitry the USB-to-FDD adapter has, it has to
provide a
way to set track and sector count with the drive
behind, but I guess it
has to
anyway to support 720kB (and maybe 2.88MB) 3.5"
medium if nothing else.
As someone else pointed out power can be supplied externally and data can
be
wired using an original flat ribbon cable, by using
corresponding .1"
pitch PCB pin header and PCB edge IDC connectors originally intended for
the
drive at the same address (or an equivalent
purpose-made cable).
NB this is based on my past experience with original floppy disk drives
and not
any USB-to-FDD adapters, in a hope that it will help.
Good luck!
Maciej
Dave
4:05 p.m.
On Wed, 25 Sep 2024, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote:
From the software's point of view the drives are
the same (with different
limits of course), e.g. once I successfully formatted 3.5" HD medium for
80 tracks of 15 sectors double-sided and imaged a 1.2MB 5.25" disk onto it
for use with IIRC DOS 3.2 that didn't support 3.5" drives and it booted
from that disk and worked just fine treating the 3.5" HD drive as a 5.25"
HD drive.
yes
trivial correction:
3.20 supported "720K" 3.5" (also some OEM modified MS-DOS 2.00 and 2.11)
3.30 supported "1.4M" 3.5"
I used "720K" 3.5" drives, even down to PC-DOS 1.00 !
(but, my primary interest was reading sectors, and then parsing file
systems)
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
2:11 p.m.
I will chip my 5 cents worth in here... For some reference, i have
experience writing some weird formats to both 3.5 and 5.25 floppy disks.
On 25/09/2024 02:57, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
And more specifically, would it be
possible for anyone to image such a disk with a copy of PC-DOS 2.0 or
earlier? (and maybe on up to 3.3 or so)
There is a plethora of floppy disk manipulation software out there. Much
of it for PC based systems. There is a DOS based CP/M image writing
software suite i have seen but not used. Omniflop, which is freeware for
32bit NT OSes can write a whole host of obscure systems, probably
including your Sharp system. Obviously, you need disk images to write to
the floppies, but any post-pentium system should be a good bridge system
for such a task. Win2k is the last NT system without activation, so is a
great candidate for an NT bridge system.
The later part is the service that would be more
helpful to me. I finally
have a drive for an old system that currently uses bubble memory cartridges
to boot to PC-DOS 2.0, and so we'd like to see if (using these external
drives) it could also boot to a (confirmed legit) image of IBM PC-DOS
(and/or very early Microsoft DOS). Or, do we still need some kind of
proprietary Sharp DOS image? (in which case, extra blank disk would be
good, as I think there are tools on these bubble memory cartridges to
initialize disks accordingly).
As long as the floppy drive has a Shugart compatible interface
("standard" 5.25 card edge or 34pin connector) you can use said drive
with a PC to format the disks. Might require drive swapping between
systemsand a kludgy system to make them, but it's pretty simple. I'm
sure there's disk images out there.
Cheers,
Josh Rice
10
days inactive
11
days old
12 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com -
Fred Cisin -
Joshua Rice -
Maciej W. Rozycki -
Steve Lewis -
Travis Pierce -
Van Snyder