12 Oct
2022
12 Oct
'22
1:54 p.m.
Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint 2200 was programmed?
It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of
systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the
8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes
written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10?
Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and
tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system
(unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that
content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that
ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system?
-Steve
12 Oct
12 Oct
2:23 p.m.
*From:* Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
*Subject:* [cctalk] datapoint 2200 programming
*Date:* Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 1:54 PM
*To:* cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
*Cc:* Steve Lewis <lewissa78(a)gmail.com>
Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint
2200 was programmed?
It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of
systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the
8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes
written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10?
Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and
tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system
(unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that
content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that
ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system?
-Steve
I think you can find the answers here:
http://bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200/
I only skimmed a couple of the manuals briefly, but it appears that it
was programmed in assembler, and that the source code editing, assembly,
and tape preparation were all done on the 2200.
These manuals look like they are for the Version II machine that was
introduced in 1972. The introduction to the Reference Manual states v.II
was upward compatible from the v.I system, however, so the programming
was probably similar. Once significant change was that v.II had RAM and
that instructions ran between 4 and 80 times faster, which perhaps
suggests that the v.I had a rotating memory or perhaps some sort of
delay line memory.
Paul
13 Oct
13 Oct
1:08 a.m.
On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original Datapoint
2200 was programmed?
It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of
systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the
8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the tapes
written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10?
Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and
tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system
(unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that
content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that
ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system?
-Steve
Look here to wat was available for this class of machines :
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Ca…
So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare, Dataform were
available.
Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only system.
Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system, allowing for
quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of course...
My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some simnple ad-hoc
systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for this bootrom on Bitsavers.
Jos
16 Oct
16 Oct
9:08 p.m.
Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint 2200 "in the wild" --
what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again,
such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good
tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably
been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you
just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape?
not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted
into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio tape?)
Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine
code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter
addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your
starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood
Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious
how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced.
I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't
have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to
MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the
DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load
routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part
of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the
DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as
mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the
manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to
a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a
"modern" x86 PC?)
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original
Datapoint 2200 was
programmed?
It had tapes containing terminal programs to
access different types of
systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became the
8008. But how were these terminal programs created and how were the
tapes
written? Were they under emulators on larger
systems, like a PDP-10?
Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor and
tape-write routines? I assume no kind of ROM was built into the system
(unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write that
content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC ever built for the 8008 that
ran on a Datapoint 2200 or similar system?
-Steve
Look here to wat was available for this class of machines :
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Ca…
So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare,
Dataform were available.
Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only
system.
Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system,
allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of
course...
My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some
simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code for
this bootrom on Bitsavers.
Jos
11:41 p.m.
On 17.10.22 06:08, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote:
Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint
2200 "in the wild" --
You'd be very lucky to find one. They are much
rarer than the contemporary and similar ICL1501. And if you find one, watch out. The
powersupply is seriously dangereous...
into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't
actually use audio tape?)
They did not use audio tapes, but the digital variant.
Sounds like the "systems debugging" might
allow injecting direct machine
code at addresses
You can do just that on my system. If you have a true 2200 with the dual cassette system
you do not have a bootrom : system hardware will just load the first block from tape and
start from there. One of the tapes has a monitor similar to the one in my bootrom.
My system is a DP1100/Floppy, has no tapes, but a PCB with the bootrom instead of the
tape reader board. I intend to make a combined bootrom / tape reader board, as I would
like to extend my DP1100 with casettes.
Jos
17 Oct
17 Oct
12:45 a.m.
I have an entire box of Datapoint 2200 digital tapes, probably over 50 of
them. I'm not sure what's on them, but I got them long ago from a former
dealer/tech(?) for Datapoint outside Reno. I also scored a ton (probably
literally) of hardware but that was all stolen in the Great Vintage
Computer Heist of 2012.
As you can guess, the rollers in the tapes are probably deteriorated by now
but someone with some patience and determination could probably extract the
data. If anyone is interested, contact me privately.
Sellam
On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 9:08 PM Steve Lewis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Thanks. I was curious about if I found a Datapoint
2200 "in the wild" --
what could be done with it, if no floppy nor any working tapes (then again,
such a system is well retired and really no need to power it on). "good
tapes" would probably be degraded by now (although the media has probably
been extracted and archives somewhere? so like with a TRS-80 today, can you
just use any tape deck or even a smartphone to just play back the tape?
not quite that simple, as the DP2200 digital data would have to converted
into appropriate audio tones -- unless they didn't actually use audio
tape?)
Sounds like the "systems debugging" might allow injecting direct machine
code at addresses (the IBM 5100 has a DSP that allows this, to Alter
addresses to apply PALM instructions, then do a "BR" branch run at your
starting address to kick things off). I'm reading through the Lamont Wood
Datapoint book, maybe it will have more insight here. I was just curious
how the first tape (for the DP2200) was produced.
I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed a BASIC, but didn't
have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to
MOS. That's not quite the same - but I imagine a similar story with the
DP2200. An early incomplete DP2200 was built, someone coded some save/load
routines, tested, and once perfected maybe it was formalized into (a part
of) what became the bootrom? (if you have a correct "CTOS" tape, does the
DP2200 just load it or is an initial command needed?) Sorry, as
mentioned I'm reading the Datapoint book, and after that will explore the
manuals mentioned here that will probably explain it. (I see reference to
a DP2200 emulator made on the System/360 - but none ever made it to a
"modern" x86 PC?)
On Thu, Oct 13, 2022 at 3:11 AM jos via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
and
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/software/60000_Datapoint_Software_Ca…
On 12.10.22 22:54, Steve Lewis via cctalk
wrote:
the
Does anyone know how the 1970/1971 original
Datapoint 2200 was
programmed?
> It had tapes containing terminal programs to access different types of
> systems. And the instruction set was said to be similar what became
8008.
But how were these terminal programs created and how were the
tapes
> written? Were they under emulators on larger systems, like a PDP-10?
> Were there any tapes that had something like a machine code editor
> tape-write routines? I assume no kind of
ROM was built into the system
> (unless it had a built in machine code editor, and routines to write
that
> content to a tape?) Was a version of BASIC
ever built for the 8008
that
ran on a
Datapoint 2200 or similar system?
-Steve
Look here to wat was available for this class of machines :
So, yes, Basic, RPG, Cobol ( for 5500 upwards), Databus, Datashare,
Dataform were available.
Programs development could be done standalone, even on a cassette-only
system.
Keep in mind that Diablo 14" diskdrives were available for these system,
allowing for quite a comfortable environment. For early 70's standards of
course...
My DP2200 does have a bootrom, allowing for booting from floppy, or some
simnple ad-hoc systems debugging. Look for the deocumented source code
for
this bootrom on Bitsavers.
Jos
18 Oct
18 Oct
2:43 p.m.
Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had developed
a BASIC, but didn't
have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane to
MOS.
MITS, not MOS.
Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800 using
a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation (UUO)
facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it when
the 8080 came out.
He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so that
he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she interviewed him
for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published). He
spent
several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior to
her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups of the
development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs.
Rich
3:15 p.m.
Hi Rich.
As an aside, are there any updates as to the fate of the LCM collection?
I'd heard sordid rumors about its dispersal but would appreciate definitive
word from a reliable source (i.e. yourself) to the extent you're able to
discuss it.
Thanks.
Sellam
On Tue, Oct 18, 2022 at 2:43 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Date: Sun, 16
Oct 2022 23:08:23 -0500
From: Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
I recall the story by Paul Allen - they had
developed a BASIC, but didn't
have a boot loader to load it, and Paul wrote one while on the airplane
to
MOS.
MITS, not MOS.
Messrs. Allen, Gates, and Davidoff wrote their BASIC for the Altair 8800
using
a chip emulator created by Allen using the Unimplemented User Operation
(UUO)
facility of the PDP-10. He originally emulated the 8008, but updated it
when
the 8080 came out.
He recreated the boot code for us to use on our restored 8800 at LCM+L, so
that
he could demonstrate the Altair BASIC for Leslie Stahl when she
interviewed him
for "60 Minutes" (when his memoir "Idea Man" was first published).
He
spent
several weeks at the nascent museum debugging the BASIC interpreter prior
to
her visit--we did not have the final code he demo'd at MITS, but backups
of the
development sources, so he had to fix some known bugs.
Rich
16 Oct
16 Oct
6:30 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to be
similar what became
the
8008.
The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical. The Intel 8008
(and TI TMX1795) were designed based on specifications from Computer
Terminal Corporation, maker of the Datapoint brand. CTC chose not to use
either chip in the Datapoint 2200 family, though.
The 8008 instruction set is basically the 8080 instruction set with the
best instructions removed and the opcodes reassigned.
11:24 p.m.
On 17.10.22 03:30, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, Oct 12, 2022, 14:54 Steve Lewis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Not quite, II
believe, O handling is different between DP200 and i8008.
Datapoint 2200 [...] iinstruction set was said to
be similar what became
the
8008.
The instruction sets weren't similar, they was identical.
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9 comments
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participants (6)
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jos -
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Steve Lewis