5 Aug
2023
5 Aug
'23
1:45 p.m.
On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though.
While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them.
Haven't
even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they
came home .
Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI
and a SWTPC 6800.
bill
5 Aug
5 Aug
4:07 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:46 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk wrote:
But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to
produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the
chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price, thanks indirectly
to those willing to pay for the real thing. Otherwise we'd probably never
get to use one. It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get
a replica as close as possible to an original. I guess it does not matter
how or why it happenend but the Apple I is the ultimate vintage computing
collectible.
Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my favorite computer
from the mid 70s.
I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800 though.
While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them.
Haven't
even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they
came home .
Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI
and a SWTPC 6800.
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 8/5/2023 4:07 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:46 PM Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Nowadays my most used vintage computers are my TRS-80's. Even more than
my PDP-11's
and VAX. But if I had an IMSAI I think it would be #1.
bill
On 8/3/2023 3:45 AM, Joshua Rice via cctalk
wrote:
But...because the apple I is so valuable people have been motivated to
produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the
chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price, thanks indirectly
to those willing to pay for the real thing. Otherwise we'd probably never
get to use one. It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try to get
a replica as close as possible to an original. I guess it does not matter
how or why it happenend but the Apple I is the ultimate vintage computing
collectible.
Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my favorite computer
from the mid 70s. I’d still prefer the IMSAI 8080 or SWTPC 6800
though.
While I have a couple Apple ]['s I really don't do much with them.
Haven't
even turned one on since I retired from the University in 2015 and they
came home .
Wouldn't take an Apple 1 as a gift but I, too, would love to have an IMSAI
and a SWTPC 6800.
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
Personally I use my IMSAI somewhat regularly, thats my
favorite computer
from the mid 70s.
I have an IMSAI as well, but for me my favourite computer of that era is the
KIM-1, and that's such a simple design there are tons of reimplementations
(though I prefer the original since some of them apparently have edge-case
incompatibilities).
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser(a)floodgap.com
-- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------
6:32 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975.
I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to.
It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I
shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about
$1,000--and that was without keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't
use it that long because of its rather cheesy construction--I moved to
an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available. Still have that
one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz.
There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other
equipment can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon
to the über wealthy.
--Chuck
6:58 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay yesterday for
$6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your Altair.
I'm not too keen on emulation. Because I never got to experience the earlier machines
in person (too young), emulation doesn't cut it for me. My 1970s gear isn't
nostalgia, it's new experiences. I want the physical look and feel of the original
hardware. It's not the same with an emulator. Meanwhile, I grew up Commodore and
have piles of Commodore stuff, but I don't touch any of it because 'been
there/done that'.
Brad
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 5, 2023 3:32 PM
To: Cameron Kaiser via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Chuck Guzis <cclist(a)sydex.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Apple 1
I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the kit back in 1975.
I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to.
It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I shed this
mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about $1,000--and that was without
keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't use it that long because of its rather
cheesy construction--I moved to an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available.
Still have that one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz.
There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other equipment
can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon to the über wealthy.
--Chuck
7:21 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 8/5/23 15:58, brad(a)techtimetraveller.com wrote:
Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw
one sell on ebay yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
Altair.
No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire
weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really
awful cheap white wires...
I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
--Chuck
7:30 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some day
I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate as
my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though and
like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels
science fantasy to me.
Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in price
with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down unless
hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's interesting
as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history
becomes less interesting and valuable at some point?
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 8/5/23 15:58, brad(a)techtimetraveller.com wrote:
No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire
weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really
awful cheap white wires...
I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
--Chuck
Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I
just saw one sell on ebay
yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
Altair.
7:37 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote:
For no personally good reason other than the stigma
(and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some
day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same
rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system
though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches.
Still feels science fantasy to me.
If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
mobile-capable PC.
Gotta love them Canadians!
--Chuck
9:29 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 4:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
mobile-capable PC.
Gotta love them Canadians.
Definitely a sleeper. Very hard to find though.
Also, definitely the first intentionally portable computer.
Sellam
9:30 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
Yup!
There's one in the local University's museum, and the curator even wrote a
book about its interesting history.
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote:
For no personally good reason other than the
stigma (and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some
day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same
rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system
though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches.
Still feels science fantasy to me.
If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
mobile-capable PC.
Gotta love them Canadians!
--Chuck
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
As a matter of fact a local friend, Josh Bensadon, restored their MCM/70
for the York U museum in Toronto
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 7:37 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 8/5/23 16:30, John Herron wrote:
For no personally good reason other than the
stigma (and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some
day I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same
rate as my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system
though and like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches.
Still feels science fantasy to me.
If I weren't old and if I were a collector, I'd be going after an MCM/70
as my target. 8008 CPU, APL and pretty darned close to the first
mobile-capable PC.
Gotta love them Canadians!
--Chuck
8:04 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at
Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on
B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins
knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with
B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release
management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that
machine.
I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up
on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left.
On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
For no personally good reason other than the stigma
(and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some day
I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate as
my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though and
like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels
science fantasy to me.
Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in price
with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down unless
hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's interesting
as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history
becomes less interesting and valuable at some point?
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On 8/5/23 15:58, brad(a)techtimetraveller.com wrote:
>> Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay
> yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
> Altair.
> No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire
> weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really
> awful cheap white wires...
>
> I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
> That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
10:27 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
Ah, BBM memories...
My first paying programmer/operator job was on a B260 in the late 60s, the
first Burroughs minicomputer in Canada IIRC. Many years later, after trying
a few other careers including managing a large motorcycle dealership, I
wound up back with Burroughs doing contract programming for series L
machines, B1800s and B80 & 90s, cross-compiling on a B2700 at night when I
had it all to myself. I too had lots of disk cartridges, cassettes, mag
tapes and even punched cards and tapes, many pretty rare today, that I
threw out before I realized that there were actually folks interested in
that old 'junk'.
Still have the operator console from that B2700 though...
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:04 PM Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at
Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on
B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins
knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with
B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release
management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that
machine.
I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up
on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left.
On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
For no personally good reason other than the
stigma (and technically
incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some
day
I'd like to have a real one but they increase
in value at the same rate
as
my income lol so not likely going to happen.
It's a neat system though
and
like a lot of people I like blinken lights and
flip switches. Still feels
science fantasy to me.
Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in
price
with supply and demand. Not sure what would make
the market go down
unless
hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the
market. But it's
interesting
as less kids would have heard of any of these
systems so maybe history
becomes less interesting and valuable at some point?
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> On 8/5/23 15:58, brad(a)techtimetraveller.com wrote:
>> Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay
> yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
> Altair.
> No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire
> weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really
> awful cheap white wires...
>
> I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
> That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
10:44 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
Cool.
One of packages that I supported also ran on the "Medium Systems" (B3000
and B4000 at that point). When I needed to run tests on those machines,
I had to drive to the Pasadena office. There was an old-school fish bowl
system operator room though it hadn't been used as such for a long time.
The whole place felt like the remains of another era, which it was.
Back to B1000, several years after the fact I found that, within six
months of when I moved to the Seattle area, Fort Lewis had included some
model of B1800 in a surplus auction. If i had only known ...
On 8/5/23 7:27 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote:
Ah, BBM memories...
My first paying programmer/operator job was on a B260 in the late 60s, the
first Burroughs minicomputer in Canada IIRC. Many years later, after trying
a few other careers including managing a large motorcycle dealership, I
wound up back with Burroughs doing contract programming for series L
machines, B1800s and B80 & 90s, cross-compiling on a B2700 at night when I
had it all to myself. I too had lots of disk cartridges, cassettes, mag
tapes and even punched cards and tapes, many pretty rare today, that I
threw out before I realized that there were actually folks interested in
that old 'junk'.
Still have the operator console from that B2700 though...
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 8:04 PM Alan Perry via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
> My holy grail is a Burroughs B1965. I was one of the last people at
> Burroughs (Unisys at that point) fixing bugs in the system software on
> B1000 (the only one in the Lake Forest, CA office; all of the sys admins
> knew of the B1965 there as "my" machine.). My office was filled with
> B1000 removable disk packs (different versions of the OS and release
> management of the software packages I owned). I loved working with that
> machine.
>
> I have boot and maintenance cassettes and a disk pack that I picked up
> on eBay. I should have taken and preserved more stuff before I left.
>
> On 8/5/23 4:30 PM, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
>> For no personally good reason other than the stigma (and technically
>> incorrect) being the first PC, the Altair 8800 is my holy Grail. Some
> day
>> I'd like to have a real one but they increase in value at the same rate
> as
>> my income lol so not likely going to happen. It's a neat system though
> and
>> like a lot of people I like blinken lights and flip switches. Still feels
>> science fantasy to me.
>>
>> Less systems being around makes all of these popular systems go up in
> price
>> with supply and demand. Not sure what would make the market go down
> unless
>> hundreds were found somewhere and flooded the market. But it's
> interesting
>> as less kids would have heard of any of these systems so maybe history
>> becomes less interesting and valuable at some point?
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 6:21 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/5/23 15:58, brad(a)techtimetraveller.com wrote:
>>>> Do you have an emotional attachment to it? I just saw one sell on ebay
>>> yesterday for $6100. An e-recycler will have a nice payday on your
>>> Altair.
>>> No real attachment; it was a useful tool for a time. It took an entire
>>> weekend with coffee and little sleep to assemble it. And those really
>>> awful cheap white wires...
>>>
>>> I'd have to pull it off the shelf, clean it up and get it working again.
>>> That's not trivial and I have better uses for my time.
>>>
>>> --Chuck
>>>
>>>
>>>
9:11 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 3:32 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the
kit back in 1975.
I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to.
It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I
shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent.
Chuck,
The fact that you are suggesting to let your Altair 8800 go to a recycler
is indicative of incompetence. It's time to recycle it. I can take care
of that for you. Simply ship it to me. Please send me a private message so
I can get my address to you.
Sellam
17 Aug
17 Aug
2:30 a.m.
New subject: Apple 1
The MITS emulator can't play Daisy :D
As I was leaving VCF late a few months ago, I was rolling an Apple2 around
outside on a cart - and a student across the street was walking by. I
didn't think much of it, then he ran over and asked "isn't that an
Apple?"
So it occured to me: he was excited to see an old computer that was
probably twice his age. And, he recognized it from far away just by the
shape (he sure didn't see the logo from that far away). Nice young lad,
we chatted a few minutes. But the incident made me realize that, anywhere
in the world, an Apple will get recognized - can't say the same for an
IMSAI or MITS box.
Then the Apple1 advantage is we know fairly precisely how many were made,
and combined that each one (likely) was handled by at least one of the
Steve's personally. I tried to suggest to Woz for him to go ahead and
finally make an "official case" for the Apple1! He could probably sell them
for a lot, even if it was just basla wood that he glued himself. But he
wanted to do stuff with near earth satellite tracking instead. That's
probably more useful.
Anyway, the "personally handled" stuff doesn't mean a thing to our
engineering minds- but people do still acknowledge a spirit or essence
about objects. Shroud of Turin type stuff, or StJohn the Baptist hand in
Topkapi Palace. Soaked up blood from King Charles I beheading. But if we
need to channel the 1970s, we'll have these IC chips with Jobs dandruff or
Woz drool on it. Can't say that about the 15,000th KIM-1 or the 10million
C64's. (I'm teasing, not meaning any offense -- all those C64's are
special and valuable each in their own way).
-Steve
v*
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 5:32 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I have a MITS Altair 8800 that I constructed from the
kit back in 1975.
I haven't touched the thing in over 30 years--nor am I likely to.
It'll probably go to the e-recycler (hopefully not the landfill) when I
shed this mortal coil or simply become incompetent. IIRC it ran about
$1,000--and that was without keyboard or display (TVT used). I didn't
use it that long because of its rather cheesy construction--I moved to
an Integrand S100 box as soon as they were available. Still have that
one too--and not an icon to the Apple Fanboiz.
There's nothing that the MITS box can do today that an emulator or other
equipment can. And in spite of its early appearance, it's not an icon
to the über wealthy.
--Chuck
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 6:11 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I have an IMSAI as well, but for me my favourite
computer of that era is the
KIM-1, and that's such a simple design there are tons of implementations
I only recently got a KIM-1 (at VCF East). It's been on my list for a
while and I was able to get it in a swap not eBay prices so I'm twice
as happy.
(though I prefer the original since some of them
apparently have edge-case
incompatibilities).
I've had a replica for a while and for running code it's an adequate
match, but, yes, there are some quirks that do matter.
One of the biggest implementation differences from 1976 to today
totally matters to me - I have an old TVT 6-5/8 Cheap Video board I
got as a kid that needs the "upstream tap" to present different memory
contents to the CPU and to the video board, and that in turn depends
on how and where the bus is buffered. Most of the simple replicas are
either total hardware emulation (KIM Uno) or are so small that they
just don't have the same bus buffer arrangement so that would have to
be hacked in.
Now that I _have_ a KIM-1, I can look at how bad the hackery is and
finally see this board in action.
-ethan
2:28 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
But...because the apple I is so valuable people have
been motivated to
produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the
chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price
I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without
spending a wad.
It's fun to find original parts and sockets to try
to get
a replica as close as possible to an original.
You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in
part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and
in part because of the demand for specific package types and date
codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone
are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even
that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap.
My classic interests are wide and varied (as demonstrated by what I
bring to VCF) and totally encompass all sorts of 6502 systems. The
specific interest the Apple 1 has for me is how screwy the video
implementation is (cheap in its time but an evolutionary dead end) and
how much it can do with 256 bytes of ROM and 8K of RAM. I would like
to be able to build up my board just to watch it run, but outside of
that, a non-exact replica (typically using a modern microcontroller to
implement the stages of shift registers) still gets the job done for
hacking raw 6502 code. I certainly believe in running old systems (I
use machines from the 60s and 70s all the time) but in the case of a
computer that costs more than my house, I'd probably lock it up in a
vault and only take it out for special occasions too.
-ethan
2:34 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:28 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via
cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from
dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly
building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one
piece at a time. I am not in a rush.
Bill
But...because the apple I is so valuable people
have been motivated to
produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the
chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price
I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without
spending a wad.
It's fun to find original parts and sockets
to try to get
a replica as close as possible to an original.
You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in
part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and
in part because of the demand for specific package types and date
codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone
are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even
that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap.
2:37 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:34 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:28 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk
<
I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts for free or cheap from
dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly
building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one
piece at a time. I am not in a rush.
I am totally doing that, but outside of early-70s dumb terminals and
maybe some early electronic sound effect devices, there aren't a lot
of places to encounter massive PMOS shift registers. RAM and generic
logic are easy enough to find with patience. Closed TI sockets are
also findable, but they were awful then and haven't improved one bit
with age.
-ethan
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
there aren't a lot of places to encounter massive
PMOS shift registers.
I someone had told me around 1975 that these would become Valuable Collectibles I would
have laughed my ass off.
Maybe I should get around to doing something with those ceramic 1702s. Probably equally
"collectible" now.
mcl
4:07 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
I should add that part of the fun is to locate parts
for free or cheap from
dead or unimportant period electronics, cards, etc. In that way slowly
building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one
piece at a time. I am not in a rush.
"unimportant period electronics, cards, etc."
such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-)
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 4:07 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
wrote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
Exactly. Who needs an IMSAI anyway? Ha ha... In truth I have a lot of old
military chips and stuff like that, generic s100 cards with burnt traces
and so on. Obviously not to harm or cannibalize anything that should be
preserved
B
I should add that part of the fun is to locate
parts for free or cheap
from
dead or unimportant period electronics, cards,
etc. In that way slowly
building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one
piece at a time. I am not in a rush.
"unimportant period electronics, cards, etc."
such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-)
8:40 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 2023-08-17 2:30 p.m., Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 4:07 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Like the magic smoke you find in transistors. :)
In retrospect only did the S100 bus takeoff with the Z80 and Drams.
Did any body ever buy the PACE 16 cpu? Godbout ad, DEC 1975, BYTE page 9.
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023, Bill Degnan via cctalk
wrote:
Exactly. Who needs an IMSAI anyway? Ha ha... In truth I have a lot of old
military chips and stuff like that, generic s100 cards with burnt traces
and so on. Obviously not to harm or cannibalize anything that should be
preserved
B
> I should add that part of the fun is to locate
parts for free or cheap
from
dead or unimportant period electronics, cards,
etc. In that way slowly
building up what is needed to complete parts of the Apple I replica one
piece at a time. I am not in a rush.
"unimportant period electronics, cards, etc."
such as that blue box, an Imsai, etc.? :-)
9:26 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 8/17/23 17:40, ben via cctalk wrote:
Did any body ever buy the PACE 16 cpu? Godbout ad, DEC
1975, BYTE page 9.
I grabbed one and manuals as a freebie at Wescon, I think. I built it
onto an S100 board (PMOS-TTL level translation will add lots of parts).
I got it going, and then, I thought "now what?" Eventually I repurposed
the prototype board. The novelty of a 16-bit CPU wasn't worth the
effort. The instruction set wasn't all that great and the limitation of
a 10-level stack was a buzz kill. The GI CP1600 was far easier to work
with--I sold that CPU chip to a collector a few years ago.
I think NSC re-cast the PACE as the NMOS INS8900, with TTL-level I/O.
The PACE itself was a re-cast of the NSC IMP-16 chipset.
--Chuck
24 Aug
24 Aug
9:12 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 21:27 Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
The PACE itself was a re-cast of the NSC IMP-16
chipset.
The IMP-16 and PACE architectures were similar (and similar to the DG
Nova), but they weren't binary or source compatible. Apparently NS didn't
think there was enough of an existing IMP-16 software base to worry about
compatibility, and instead tried to take the opportunity to make (minor)
architectural improvements.
A few hobbyists built IMP-16 and PACE/INS8900 computers, and there were
even a few commercial products, e.g. the Pacer microcomputer from Product
Support Engineering.
The IMP-16 and PACE, and even the NMOS INS8900, are very slow. For most
workloads, a 2 MHz 8080 can outperform them.
I've run figForth on a PACE. The published listing had a small but serious
error. The original listing and my fix are on Bitsavers. The author of the
PACE implementation thinks that the listing sent to FIG was by mistake not
his up-to-date working version. Demonstrating the lack of popularity of
PACE, apparently no one ever complained about it until I discovered and
fixed the bug in 2009.
I'd like to modify PACE figForth to run on an IMP-16, but there's a
surprisingly large amount of work required.
17 Aug
17 Aug
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On 2023-08-17 12:28 p.m., Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 4:08 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Unicorn electronics, sells replica parts.
NOW you know why the sell for $$$$ on ebay. :)
Ben.
https://unicornelectronics.com/
PS: The apple I kit is the same price as in 1976.
10% discount for vintage money?
But...because the apple I is so valuable people
have been motivated to
produce really nice replica motherboards. The replicas give many the
chance to experience the Apple I at a reasonable price
I have a bare replica PCB. It's proving difficult to stuff without
spending a wad.
It's fun to find original parts and sockets
to try to get
a replica as close as possible to an original.
You can do that for less than buying an original but it's still $$$ in
part because of the rarity of the oddball shift registers, etc., and
in part because of the demand for specific package types and date
codes to achieve the closest match to an original. Just the ICs alone
are hundreds of dollars, the large caps are tens of dollars and even
that exact heat sink isn't exactly cheap. 
4:29 p.m.
New subject: Apple 1
On Aug 17, 2023, at 3:18 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
...
Unicorn electronics, sells replica parts.
NOW you know why the sell for $$$$ on ebay. :)
Ben.
https://unicornelectronics.com/
Nice. They seem to have lots of stuff at decent prices. Impressive to see SN7441 ICs,
admittedly not cheap at $10 each but if you need their capabilities, any other option is a
lot more stuff and likely just as expensive.
paul
335
days inactive
355
days old
28 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
Alan Perry -
ben -
Bill Degnan -
Bill Gunshannon -
brad＠techtimetraveller.com -
Cameron Kaiser -
Chuck Guzis -
Eric Smith -
Ethan Dicks -
Fred Cisin -
John Herron -
Mark Linimon -
Mike Stein -
Paul Koning -
Sellam Abraham -
Steve Lewis