24 Oct
2025
24 Oct
'25
5:29 p.m.
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950, the transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
24 Oct
24 Oct
7:37 p.m.
On 2025-10-24 6:29 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950, the
transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
I HAVE NO idea.
When did the point contact diode come out? Radar was the big tech then
so any use of solid state diodes would be Secret Information.
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
But the Japanese can give us a hintThe Parametron.
https://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/dawn/0007.htmlComputers can work
without transistors, but not diodes.Ben.
25 Oct
25 Oct
12:34 p.m.
On Oct 24, 2025, at 10:37 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-24 6:29 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
According to "200 Meters and down" by Clinton B. DeSoto, the silicon and
carborundum "detector" were both invented in 1906, and of course galena (lead
sulphide) point contact diodes were widely used in the early days of radio.
Incidentally, the particular transistor that BBS invented was the bipolar junction
transistor. The field effect transistor is actually quite a lot older -- patented in 1925
by Julius Lilienfeld, who also invented the electrolytic capacitor -- but from an article
I remember reading as a teenager that one used selenium and as a result didn't really
work. Wikipedia says the first successful JFET is from 1945; it also cites an article
that said the 1925 FET work used copper oxide, which is a semi-useable semiconductor for
rectifier use known as far back as the 1920.
paul
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950,
the transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
I HAVE NO idea.
When did the point contact diode come out? Radar was the big tech then
so any use of solid state diodes would be Secret Information.
1:01 p.m.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 3:34 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
"carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
On Oct 24, 2025, at 10:37 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-24 6:29 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
According to "200 Meters and down" by Clinton B. DeSoto, the silicon and
carborundum "detector" were both invented in 1906, ... I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950,
the transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
I HAVE NO idea.
When did the point contact diode come out? Radar was the big tech then
so any use of solid state diodes would be Secret Information.
1:12 p.m.
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in
the better hi-fi audio using valves.
Ben.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 3:34 PM, Paul Koning via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
"carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
On Oct 24, 2025, at 10:37 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-24 6:29 p.m., Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
According to "200 Meters and down" by Clinton B. DeSoto, the silicon and
carborundum "detector" were both invented in 1906, ... I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950,
the transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
I HAVE NO idea.
When did the point contact diode come out? Radar was the big tech then
so any use of solid state diodes would be Secret Information.
1:31 p.m.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 4:12 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in the
better hi-fi audio using valves.
Ben.
Could be, but I'm not sure why. Silicon diodes have been used in high voltage service
for many decades. It may be a case of using odd technology just because. That would fit
with stuff like using vacuum tubes, or using oversized copper wiring, or any number of
other weird things "high end audio" people do. It would not be quite as strange
as gold plated fiber optic connectors.
paul
...
"carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
4:35 p.m.
"Did you use ChatGPT? That’s actually the issue date for the patent."
Marc Howard
I did not use nor would I ever use ChatGPT or its ilk for obtaining any
bona-fide information. Most, if not all AI hallucinate. Yikes!
I had read 2 articles earlier this month and had forgotten about it until
now as I stated in the note: They were from Tom’s Hardware and Soylentnews.
To be correct the point-contact transistor was invented at Bell Labs in
1947; patented in 1950. I stand corrected in relation to the invention of
and patented of the transistor. It was not my intent to mislead.
Happy computing,
Murray 😊
On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 6:58 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
the better hi-fi audio using valves.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 4:12 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
> "carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use
for blue light lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for
certain application areas, like high power devices or high temperature
operation.
> There are also silicon carbide resistors,
very nice for high power
non-inductive applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy
loads". I have one that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if
I were to dunk it into transformer oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in
Ben.
Could be, but I'm not sure why. Silicon diodes have been used in high
voltage service for many decades. It may be a case of using odd technology
just because. That would fit with stuff like using vacuum tubes, or using
oversized copper wiring, or any number of other weird things "high end
audio" people do. It would not be quite as strange as gold plated fiber
optic connectors.
paul
26 Oct
26 Oct
11:52 a.m.
________________________________
From: Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2025 1:31 PM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: The transistor invention
On Oct 25, 2025, at 4:12 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in the better
hi-fi audio using valves.
Ben.
Could be, but I'm not sure why. Silicon diodes have been used in high voltage service
for many decades. It may be a case of using odd technology just because. That would fit
with stuff like using vacuum tubes, or using oversized copper wiring, or any number of
other weird things "high end audio" people do. It would not be quite as strange
as gold plated fiber optic connectors.
paul
Putting silicon carbide semiconductors in the same boat as silicon it missing what is
going on. They are both semiconductors but completely different. They are about as
different as sodium is from table salt.
Dwight
...
"carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
1:28 p.m.
On Oct 26, 2025, at 2:52 PM, dwight via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
________________________________
From: Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2025 1:31 PM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: The transistor invention
Putting silicon carbide semiconductors in the same boat as silicon it missing what is
going on. They are both semiconductors but completely different. They are about as
different as sodium is from table salt.
Dwight
Well, yes, I am well aware of that. My point is that using SiC high voltage rectifiers
seems like an odd thing to do given that silicon rectifiers have filled that role for
decades.
paul
On Oct 25, 2025, at 4:12 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Could be, but I'm not sure why. Silicon diodes have been used in high voltage
service for many decades. It may be a case of using odd technology just because. That
would fit with stuff like using vacuum tubes, or using oversized copper wiring, or any
number of other weird things "high end audio" people do. It would not be quite
as strange as gold plated fiber optic connectors.
paul > ...
"carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
paul
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in the
better hi-fi audio using valves.
Ben.
1:45 p.m.
On 2025-10-26 2:28 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
The ones I am thinking of have no switching noise when turning off.
Ben.
On Oct 26, 2025, at 2:52 PM, dwight via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
________________________________
From: Paul Koning via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2025 1:31 PM
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: The transistor invention
Putting silicon carbide semiconductors in the same boat as silicon it missing what is
going on. They are both semiconductors but completely different. They are about as
different as sodium is from table salt.
Dwight
Well, yes, I am well aware of that. My point is that using SiC high voltage rectifiers
seems like an odd thing to do given that silicon rectifiers have filled that role for
decades.
paul On Oct 25, 2025, at 4:12 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:01 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> ...
> "carborundum" is better known as silicon carbide. It has been a niche
semiconductor material for quite a while; I remember reading about its use for blue light
lasers, back around 1980. Nowadays it's mainstream for certain application areas,
like high power devices or high temperature operation.
> There are also silicon carbide resistors, very nice for high power non-inductive
applications. Ham Radio people know of these for "dummy loads". I have one
that happily takes 100 watts for minutes on end, and if I were to dunk it into transformer
oil for cooling it could take a kilowatt.
> paul
I think too that the same diodes are used as high voltage rectifiers in the better hi-fi
audio using valves.
Ben.
Could be, but I'm not sure why. Silicon diodes have been used in high voltage
service for many decades. It may be a case of using odd technology just because. That
would fit with stuff like using vacuum tubes, or using oversized copper wiring, or any
number of other weird things "high end audio" people do. It would not be quite
as strange as gold plated fiber optic connectors.
paul
2:04 p.m.
On Oct 26, 2025, at 4:45 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Well, yes, I am well aware of that. My point is that using SiC high voltage rectifiers
seems like an odd thing to do given that silicon rectifiers have filled that role for
decades.
paul
The ones I am thinking of have no switching noise when turning off.
Of course they do. All real devices generate noise.
paul
24 Oct
24 Oct
9:14 p.m.
Ummm, December 16, 1947.
Marc
On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 8:38 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950, the
transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
9:16 p.m.
Did you use ChatGPT? That’s actually the issue date for the patent.
Marc
On Sat, Oct 25, 2025 at 12:14 AM Marc Howard <cramcram(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Ummm, December 16, 1947.
Marc
On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 8:38 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950,
the transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
25 Oct
25 Oct
11:53 a.m.
So much has changed since then. First was the doped gemanium junctions. Silicon waited
until photo and surface defusion started happening. The opening of PMOS and NMOS was when
we truly moved from the descrite devices to the complex circuits. The combining of P and N
doping brought in CMOS. It was slow but great for low power application. Then the mask
creation of self aligned gates brought the speed always waiting in CMOS. The art of making
mask that understand the wave nature of light, do the optical corrections need for even
tinier dementions. Now UV light is pushing the size of the tiniest transistors.
I've held 16 each 64 bit processors on a single piece of silicon of about half the
size of my pinky finger's nail.
RAM is falling behind but I'm sure that is being worked on.
Dwight
________________________________
From: Marc Howard via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2025 9:14 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: Murray McCullough <c.murray.mccullough(a)gmail.com>om>; Marc Howard
<cramcram(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: The transistor invention
Ummm, December 16, 1947.
Marc
On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 8:38 PM Murray McCullough via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I had forgotten that 75 years ago, Oct. 3, 1950, the
transistor was
invented leading to integrated circuits making possible personal computers
and the interest of our love of computing. Where would we be without
Bardeen's, Brattain's and Shockley's invention?
Happy computing,
Murray 🙂
1:39 p.m.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 2:53 PM, dwight via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
So much has changed since then. First was the doped gemanium junctions. Silicon waited
until photo and surface defusion started happening. The opening of PMOS and NMOS was when
we truly moved from the descrite devices to the complex circuits. The combining of P and N
doping brought in CMOS. It was slow but great for low power application. Then the mask
creation of self aligned gates brought the speed always waiting in CMOS. The art of making
mask that understand the wave nature of light, do the optical corrections need for even
tinier dementions. Now UV light is pushing the size of the tiniest transistors.
"UV" indeed. In particular, what's called "Extreme UV" -- 13 nm,
almost in what is typically considered X-ray wavelengths. That is the territory of ASML
lithography machines, a world where no other company has gone. The details are quite
mindboggling. The entire optical path has to be in vacuum, and the optical elements are
mirrors. The precision involved is vastly greater than anything else in history. For
example, mirrors accurate to a few nanometers (vs. 100 nm or so for typical telescope
mirrors). Positioning accuracy of the wafer X/Y carriage to 10 nm, with movement in a
fraction of a second from one die position to the next. Temperature control to insanely
small values. And so on. I spent a bit of time reading their technical descriptions; I
know just enough about precision mechanical engineering and optics to get my mind severely
blown from seeing what these people do.
I remember at one time IBM was building a synchrotron so they could generate coherent
X-rays for lithography. That never went anywhere as far as I know. ASML doesn't do
that, they use exotic laser technology instead.
paul
2:47 p.m.
On 2025-10-25 2:39 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I remember at one time IBM was building a synchrotron
so they could generate coherent X-rays for lithography. That never went anywhere as far
as I know. ASML doesn't do that, they use exotic laser technology instead.
paul
Low tech is more
fun.https://hackaday.com/2010/05/13/transistor-fabrication-so-simple-a-chil…
Ben.
26 Oct
26 Oct
2:15 p.m.
On Oct 25, 2025, at 5:47 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:39 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I wonder if you could make a point contact transistor out of galena.
paul
I remember at one time IBM was building a
synchrotron so they could generate coherent X-rays for lithography. That never went
anywhere as far as I know. ASML doesn't do that, they use exotic laser technology
instead.
paul
Low tech is more
fun.https://hackaday.com/2010/05/13/transistor-fabrication-so-simple-a-chil…
3:52 p.m.
On 2025-10-26 3:15 p.m., Paul Koning wrote:
In some cases you could get a negative resistance device.
https://hackaday.com/2024/03/05/making-a-crystodyne-radio-with-zinc-oxide-a…
On Oct 25, 2025, at 5:47 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2025-10-25 2:39 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I wonder if you could make a point contact transistor out of galena.
paul
I remember at one time IBM was building a
synchrotron so they could generate coherent X-rays for lithography. That never went
anywhere as far as I know. ASML doesn't do that, they use exotic laser technology
instead.
paul
Low tech is more
fun.https://hackaday.com/2010/05/13/transistor-fabrication-so-simple-a-chil…
5
days inactive
6
days old
17 comments
5 participants
participants (5)
-
ben -
dwight -
Marc Howard -
Murray McCullough -
Paul Koning