23 Jun
2023
23 Jun
'23
6:57 p.m.
I've got a few backup sets (potentially incomplete) done on MicroRSX
that were created with BRU on RX50 media. I've cranked out some code to
itemize the contents, but the file types are a mystery. I suppose that
one has to live in that world to know (e.g. MSL)
The sets appear to be (parts) of an incremental backup scheme; I think
I've got at least one copy of the complete set.
Would anyone be willing to have a look at the (ASCII) file catalog and
suggest the application that may have created the files?
Email me offlist if interested.
--Chuck
24 Jun
24 Jun
12:38 p.m.
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 23, 2023, at 18:58, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I've got a few backup sets (potentially incomplete) done on MicroRSX
that were created with BRU on RX50 media. I've cranked out some code to
itemize the contents, but the file types are a mystery. I suppose that
one has to live in that world to know (e.g. MSL)
The sets appear to be (parts) of an incremental backup scheme; I think
I've got at least one copy of the complete set.
Would anyone be willing to have a look at the (ASCII) file catalog and
suggest the application that may have created the files?
Email me offlist if interested.
--Chuck
4:39 p.m.
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a
look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
Does anyone recognize this stuff?
--Chuck
25 Jun
25 Jun
3:34 a.m.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 1:39 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data
from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
Does anyone recognize this stuff?
--Chuck
Not specifically, no. But the .RPT files might be reports - text files
or printed output, so they might provide a clue.
But I guess you have looked at them already and found no clues.
--
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen
6:39 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data
from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
Does anyone recognize this stuff?
I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a very database vibe. A
database from
back when each table was stored in a separate file. The RPT filenames hint
to me that
they are preformatted output (with escape codes) intended to be spooled to
a specific
printer later. The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout
definitions or
perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the DTP
files. I suspect
the DTX files would be config/index files for the database application that
managed all
this, describing the content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files.
-ken
10:05 a.m.
On 6/25/23 06:39, Kenneth Gober wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:39 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
I don't recognize it, but the filenames give me a
very database vibe. A
database from back when each table was stored in a separate file.
The RPT filenames hint to me that they are preformatted output (with
escape codes) intended to be spooled to a specific printer later.
The MSL files are small so may be either screen layout definitions
or perhaps metadata describing the table files, which would be in the
DTP files. I suspect the DTX files would be config/index files for
the database application that managed all this, describing the
content and relationships of the DTP and MSL files.
I figured that there was a database application involved, but it's not
clear if it was used simply for quick access or if it represents part of
the data stored.
I was hoping that the file layout might ring a bell in someone's mind
and an application be identified.
That's typical for a lot of what I run into--people back up data, but
never the program that created it. Even worse, the backups are missing
volumes, such that even if you had the restore program, it would error out.
So for example, I have a number of partial backup sets, but they're
missing the first volume. It's possible to dig data out of the rest
from the backup block headers, but any association with a file name has
been lost. BRU? Give me TAR any day...
Makes for lots of fun and games.
Thanks, anyway.
--Chuck
9:57 a.m.
On 6/24/2023 7:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
With the exception of CMD and TMP those are not RSX files at all. You
would need to
read documentation on the application that created them to find out what
they actually
are.
bill
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all
take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from
the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
Does anyone recognize this stuff? 
12:15 p.m.
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all
take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
12:34 p.m.
On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis
via cctalk wrote:
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what
created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward.
Similarly, even on the BRU backup sets that are missing volume 1, I can
recover most of the data, but all I'll have is file numbers, not names.
So no one knows what used these files?
Thanks,
Chuck
5:05 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 12:34:04PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/25/23 12:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
Perhaps you could have some luck with file command:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_(command)
and:
mkdir /tmp/checks
cp kart*.fs /tmp/checks/kart ## this is something in Forth
cp kart*.awk /tmp/checks/kart2 ## and something in awk
cp /usr/share/file/magic.mgc /tmp/checks/img ## file's own magic database
finally:
--- $ file /tmp/checks/*
/tmp/checks/img: magic binary file for file(1) cmd (version 16)
(little endian)
/tmp/checks/kart: ASCII text
/tmp/checks/kart2: awk or perl script, ASCII text
So it sometimes works, might work for you, too. Perhaps there is some
older magic database which could contain the relevant info (later
scrapped as no longer needed). Perhaps there could be a magick
database for classic interest.
No more ideas (for now, at least).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck
Guzis via cctalk wrote:
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
I know what's in the files, that's easy. What I don't know is what
created/used them. Recovering the content is fairly straightforward.
12:39 p.m.
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for
example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not),
ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all
apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
12:44 p.m.
The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame.
So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for
example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not),
ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all
apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
12:50 p.m.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2023, 1:44 PM Wayne S via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
The file list says they were created in the 1986 time
frame.
So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ?
Chances are good if it is 86, then there'd be a pro port... these were
reported extensively in the trade rags of the day, but sales weren't so it
may be hard to say. Also, there were a few accounting packages that were
also on cp/m and the PC so that might help...
Though connecting press reports to these files might be hard...
Warner
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and
looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like
visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File,
MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does?
Is it geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
12:53 p.m.
Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical variables/commands are
defined that might give clues.
Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the program.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame.
So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for
example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not),
ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all
apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
1:02 p.m.
.dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which fit in with rsx11 and DEC software.
So maybe that is it?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:53, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Might want to look at the login.cmd file and see if any logical variables/commands are
defined that might give clues.
Also, the .rpt files might have a header that gives some info about the program.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:44, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
The file list says they were created in the 1986 time frame.
So what Dec systems were running around then that required rsx11 ?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:39, Wayne S <wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app created them and looking for (for
example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like visual studio ( probably not),
ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code, and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all
apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 12:16, Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves.
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Or, to avoid the risk of fu-ups if you put "<" in bad direction:
cat theXfile.x | strings | less
It may reveal a bit about the insides of the file, for example in case
of sqlite database there would probably be a tables description.
Also, comparing
cat theXfile.x | strings | wc -c
cat theXfile.x | wc -c
would givw some idea of how much of the file is text and how much of
it is something else.
All those tricks assume that files are uncompressed, of course.
HTH
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola@bigfoot.com **
2:18 p.m.
On 6/25/23 15:02, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
.dtx files IIRC were created by Tex and Latex which
fit in with rsx11 and DEC software. So maybe that is it?
I tried to compile TeX for RSX-11M on an 11/45, and it was
an utter failure. Maybe somebody hacked TeX down to fit on
an 11, but I never heard of it. We did get it running on
VAX/VMS on a 11/780. The versions of TeX I have used
produce .dvi files, which can then be converted to .ps or .pdf.
Jon
1:45 p.m.
On 6/25/23 12:39, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app
created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like
visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code,
and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
The volume label pretty much says it all--it's an office journal of
phone calls, mail, conversations, etc. Basically standard commercial
CYA notes.
Was there a MicroRSX application sold for this task?
My guess is that the customer will happy for a simple un-indexed linear
list, so I'll go with that.
--Chuck
4:59 p.m.
On 6/25/2023 3:39 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote:
Pretty hard to tell from just the file names what app
created them and looking for (for example) .msl files sends you down different paths, like
visual studio ( probably not), ImageMagick Scripting Language File, MAINSAIL Source Code,
and ProWORX Nxt MSL are all apps that create .msl
Any more info you can shed on what the industry is that the customer does? Is it
geographic mapping or some kind of science processing?
I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
bill
5:26 p.m.
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11
applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears.
Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
--Chuck
7 p.m.
I remember that th
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11
applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears.
Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
--Chuck
7:01 p.m.
Sorry disregard.
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 25, 2023, at 19:00, Wayne S
<wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
I remember that th
Sent from my iPhone
>> On Jun 25, 2023, at 17:26, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>>
>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to
>> guess what
>>
>> application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
>> Does the
>>
>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might
have
>>
>> created those files?
>
> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears.
>
> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
>
> --Chuck
26 Jun
26 Jun
4:16 a.m.
On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It
consisted of a
number of packages and was a complete business operations system.
bill
I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11
applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of
tears.
Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. 
7:07 a.m.
On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down variant of
"ALL-IN-ONE".
paul
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a
number of packages and was a complete business operations system.
bill I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11
applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of
tears.
Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
3:49 p.m.
On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various
pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z.
bill
On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a trimmed-down
variant of "ALL-IN-ONE".
On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It consisted of a
number of packages and was a complete business operations system.
bill I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11
applications. Trying to
guess what
application created those files is likely to be a study in frustration.
Does the
"customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that might have
created those files?
The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of
tears.
Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files. 
11:26 p.m.
A-to-Z is listed in
https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/ol…
at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412.
It says:
A-to-Z Base System
The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that
sup-
ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur-
rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system
management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or
MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and
flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level
inter-
face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions
avail-
able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11
includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z
Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software.
SPD 18.16
The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988.
Ulli
Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>gt;:
On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>
> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications. Trying to
>>> guess what
>>>
>>> application created those files is likely to be a study in
frustration.
trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE".
The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various
pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z.
bill
> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> Does the
>>>
>>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11 that
might have
>>>
>>> created those files?
>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears.
>>
>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
>
> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It
consisted of a
number of
packages and was a complete business operations system.
bill
On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a
27 Jun
27 Jun
4:31 a.m.
Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but
didn't realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS.
I wonder if it included Prose as a word processor.
Speaking of which, I wonder if those apps would run on a regular
pdp11/83 running RSX111M+. Maybe not the menu system, but the text/REGIS
apps like the editor and Pro/DATARIEVE should probably run. Hm.
I'm currently thinking of ways to try and get true M+ to run on the Pro.
Console serial isn't an issue, there is a way to activate that on the
printer port. The trick is the drivers, and if it's possible to have the
POS drivers for the disk drive and floppy controller somehow load into a
genned M+ system via VMR and/or CON.
But it would be interesting to get POS apps running on a real pdp11. If
they are user level it should not require a recompile. The real question
is Synergy window manager: Did it access video memory directly or did it
do the screen via REGIS drivers. I wonder because the video cards are
different between the Pro/350 and 380....
Chris
On 6/27/2023 2:26 AM, Hans-Ulrich Hölscher via cctalk wrote:
A-to-Z is listed in
https://doc.lagout.org/science/0_Computer%20Science/0_Computer%20History/ol…
at several pdf pages, e.g. 54 & 412.
It says:
A-to-Z Base System
The A-to-Z Base System is a user-installable, multiuser base system that
sup-
ports up to ten concurrent users on MicroPDP-11 and sixteen or more concur-
rent users on MicroVAX. The A-to-Z Base System includes menu-driven system
management functions as well as the ability to install Micro/RSX and/or
MicroVAX applications. Inherent in the system are the menu manager and
flow-control processor, which insulate the end user from the system-level
inter-
face without isolating the developer or system manager from the functions
avail-
able at the operating system level. The A-to-Z Base System for MicroPDP-11
includes the Micro/RSX operating system software, whereas the other A-to-Z
Base Systems require the purchase of MicroVMS as prerequisite software.
SPD 18.16
The latest version I know of is A-to-Z V2.2A from 1988.
Ulli
Am Di., 27. Juni 2023 um 00:49 Uhr schrieb Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>gt;:
> On 6/26/2023 10:07 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Jun 26, 2023, at 7:16 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 6/25/2023 8:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>>>> On 6/25/23 16:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I have 3" and 1800 pages of possible PDP-11 applications.
Trying to
>>>>> guess what
>>>>>
>>>>> application created those files is likely to be a study in
> frustration.
>>>>> Does the
>>>>>
>>>>> "customer" have no idea what programs they ran under RSX-11
that
> might have
>>>>> created those files?
>>>> The "customer" no longer inhabits this vale of tears.
>>>>
>>>> Was there an application called A2Z? Just probing around in the files.
>>> Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on MicroRSX. It
> consisted of a
>>> number of packages and was a complete business operations system.
>>>
>>>
>>> bill
>> On RSTS, also, I think. Some vague memory says that it was a
> trimmed-down variant of "ALL-IN-ONE".
> The Software Sourcebook list only MicroRSX as the OS supporting the various
>
> pieces of A-to-Z. There is no listing for anything called A2Z.
>
>
> bill
>
>
>
>
6:27 a.m.
On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Sounds like P/OS for the Professional. I've heard of All-in-One, but didn't
realize they built something that was as bad an annoying as P/OS. I wonder if it included
Prose as a word processor.
Different thing, I believe.
Various projects get mixed up in my head, but here are some pieces as I remember them.
Corrections welcome because it's quite possible I slipped some bits.
There's ALL-IN-ONE, a VMS based business software system. It included, I think, word
processing and an email system, fancier than MAIL11 and not at all appreciated by
engineers but inflicted on DEC non-engineering personnel.
There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something similar but small enough to run on a
PDP-11. ("A2Z" is not its official name but it isn't surprising to see that
appear as an internal marker in files.) I though there was a RSTS version of it, I may be
mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not have been a large stretch to build it on
RSTS under its RSX runtime system.
There was also at one time the "KO project", called that because it was
apparently started under Ken Olsen's personal direction. That was a software project
to build something similar. I don't think what it produced actually became ALL-IN-ONE
but maybe it was. Among other things, it involved the creation of a new programming
language called KOALA. That could run on both VMS and PDP-11 systems, so the theory was
that the KO project output could do so as well. In practice that failed utterly because
of the "virtual disease" -- those applications ran fine on a VMS system with
adequate memory, but on a PDP-11 with 64 kB address space they would page like mad and
performance was totally unacceptable.
P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described above is much newer (early 1980s if
I remember right -- certainly well after I started at DEC which was 1978).
paul
1:17 p.m.
Different thing, I believe.
Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two
departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely
different, but equally oddball solutions.
There's A-to-Z, which aimed to be something
similar but small enough to run on a PDP-11. ("A2Z" is not its official name
but it isn't surprising to see that appear as an internal marker in files.) I though
there was a RSTS version of it, I may be mistaken. Given that it ran on RSX it would not
have been a large stretch to build it on RSTS under its RSX runtime system.
Yeah, I
sort of remember this in the 80's. It was an attempt to break
into the office automation world where companies like Wang and that
weird word processing system were attempting to stave off PC's and
Netware/286. Didn't work well
P/OS is none of these things and the stuff I described
above is much newer (early 1980s if I remember right -- certainly well after I started at
DEC which was 1978).
The more I look at POS the more I realize it really could have been
good. With TMS at the front desk plus a shared 2400 baud modem plus
thinwire Ethernet, a small boot disk, one system with an RD53, and a
couple of LA50's and you would have a darn impressive office system. Too
bad the usual happened.
But I am now curious to see if I can get the POS apps to run on M+. Why not.
paul
4:26 p.m.
On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't
unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history.
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio(a)acarlini.com
Different
thing, I believe.
Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two
departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely
different, but equally oddball solution
5:11 p.m.
On 6/27/2023 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't
unusual in DEC, at least for a portion of its history.
Reading about the two different versions was interesting.
The PDP-11 version comes complete with a version of Micro-RSX making it
basically a turnkey system.
More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on RX02 and RL02
disks.
I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks.
bill
Different
thing, I believe.
Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two
departments working on the same concept and coming up with completely
different, but equally oddball solution 
5:44 p.m.
More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes
on RX02 and RL02
disks.
I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks.
Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. RX02
is a bit odd, but I could see that being supported on a Unibus adapter
which existed for the big systems and the BI systems.
Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before
Microvax became popular
CZ
28 Jun
28 Jun
10:10 a.m.
On 6/27/2023 8:44 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the 11/730 actually connected
to a PDP-11
that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a
10M disk, did it?
More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX
comes on RX02 and
RL02 disks.
I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks.
Sure. The 8600 and 11/730 used an RL02 as the boot/startup media. RX02 is a bit odd, but I could see that being
supported on a Unibus
adapter which existed for the big systems and the BI systems.
But the question
would have been why? :-)
Maybe the 11/730 was the entry level All in One, at least before
Microvax became popular
Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730 just to get
those particular
apps? :-)
bill
2:42 p.m.
Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the
11/730 actually connected
to a PDP-11
that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever fit on a
10M disk, did it?
Nope, there was a big "multifunction" card that ran the RM80 and RL02
drive. I think it bypassed the Unibus for data which is what allowed the
R80 to run on such a weird little system.
I don't know if it could handle more than one RL02, but the R80 used a
personality module that was basically SMD with the stupid DEC twist and
was the same module that worked on the RM80 (which I still have here,
should dig it out and fire it up. Worked a decade ago...)
But the question would have been why? :-)
Maybe, but can you see a small office running an 11/730
just to get
those particular
Sure, the 11/730 was marketed as an office system, in a cool little
cabinet with the R80 on the bottom, CPU, and a little top loading RL02.
Perfect for the 1980's office. Well until Microvax.
CZ
29 Jun
29 Jun
12:58 a.m.
On Wed, 28 Jun 2023, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
Don't know the 8600. Wasn't the RL02 on the
11/730 actually connected
to a PDP-11 that functioned as a console? Surely no version of VMS ever
fit on a 10M disk, did it?
The 730 does not have a PDP-11 as frontend. It uses the RB730 integrated
disk controller with attachments for the RL02 and R80 drives.
The R80 provides 120MB of storage, enough for a small VMS installation.
And as it's a Unibus machine, you can add more peripherals.
Christian
27 Jun
27 Jun
6:26 p.m.
On 6/27/23 19:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
More interesting is that All-In-One for the VAX comes on
RX02 and RL02 disks.
I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL
disks.
Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02, and VMS
supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console
computer so you could mount it just like any other device.
Jon
28 Jun
28 Jun
7:28 a.m.
On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Yup, I think you are right! memory fades over 40 years!
Jon
Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02,
and VMS
supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console
computer so you could mount it just like any other device.
I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02? 
7:46 a.m.
On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 10:28 AM Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 6/27/23 20:58, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Yup, I think you are right! memory fades over 40 years!
Yes, it's an RX01. (I just booted one of mine last month).
Pat
Yes, the console floppy on an 11/780 was an RX02,
and VMS
supported "virtualizing" it through the LSI-11 console
computer so you could mount it just like any other device.
I thought it was an RX01 on an 11/03? It's an RX02?
27 Jun
27 Jun
6:49 p.m.
asOn Tue, 27 Jun 2023 at 20:11, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wasn't aware that the VAX or VMS even supported RX or RL disks.
One of my father's fondest memories as a sysadmin for the radio astronomy
folks at Bell Labs was replacing the VAX, I believe an 11/750, with Sun
equipment. They had RL02 packs on that machine.
-Henry
5:14 p.m.
On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:26 PM, Antonio Carlini via
cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 27/06/2023 21:17, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:
Like the VAX 6000 and the VAX 9000 :-) Having competing teams wasn't unusual in DEC,
at least for a portion of its history.
It was a long running operating principle of Ken Olsen, and one of the worst management
notions in the history of the world. He didn't just do it with individual projects,
though that's bad enough -- he had whole product family organizations competing. A
notorious example I know well was the network products group (building routers and bridges
and terminal servers, out of Littleton) competing with the Loe End network products group
(building smaller routers and bridges and terminal servers, out of Maynard.
Once in a while there was some connection between the two, as in the DEChub family which
came out of LENAC (90 series) but evolved to include products from NAC as well (900
series, like the DECbridge 900 FDD/Ethernet bridge I worked on. But the misguided notion
that DEC had enough money to burn that it could build two product lines and cancel one of
them, or have each take a fraction of the available market, surely is part of why DEC
failed as a business in the long run.
paul
Different
thing, I believe.
Gotcha. I'd find it funny and perfectly fitting if DEC had two departments working on
the same concept and coming up with completely different, but equally oddball solution
30 Jun
30 Jun
7:17 p.m.
List,
I finally got around to cutting some Linux code to handle the RX50 BRU
sets. Since the disks date from 1986, I prefer to work with images.
Basically, you extract BACKUP.SYS files from the each of the set of
disks. For sake of simplicity, rename the BACKUP.SYS files 1 2 3 4...
The run
brudump dest-dir 1 2 3 4 5 6 7..
Brudump checks the backup sequence and creates the files from the backup
and stashes them in dest-dir. Linux x86_64 Debian 5-10-179 was used,
but should run well on most recent distros.
If you need this, let me know.
Cheers,
Chuck
26 Jun
26 Jun
7:46 a.m.
On 6/26/23 04:16, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Actually, there was. It was a DEC product and ran on
MicroRSX. It
consisted of a
number of packages and was a complete business operations system.
That would fit perfectly, given the source of the disks, which were
probably created by an executive assistant/secretary. The selection of
files archived by BRU would also likely be dictated by the package. The
contents of most of the files containing text seem to be consistent with
a journal/notebook kept by such a person.
At least this ties down the source, if not the use of the data.
Welcome to my world.
Now, on to a batch of Wang 2200 floppies whose content that not even Jim
Battle appears to recognize.
--Chuck
25 Jun
25 Jun
2:13 p.m.
On 6/25/23 14:15, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 04:39:01PM -0700, Chuck Guzis
via cctalk wrote:
On Linux, I use od to pick through files to figure out what
format they are. Lots of archive and compressor programs
put a few bytes at the beginning that identifies what
utility was used. od -c filename | more give a page by page
look at the ASCII character representation.
od -x is hex output of 16-bit words, od -d does 16-bit words
as decimal, and so on.
Jon
On 6/24/23 12:38, Wayne S wrote:
If you have those files accessible from some Unix-like OS, then you
can:
strings < theXfile.x | less
Sometimes also:
hexdump -C < theXfile.x | less
Chuck, why not post the catalog snd we’ll all
take a look?
Power of the internet!
Okay, I guess that's okay. Here's the data from
the MFD:
https://icedrive.net/s/Q56ZY2Sv4g62Gi9vZ9jzNQ2CD6Bu
Since this is customer data, I can't publish the contents of the files
themselves. 
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:17 p.m.
Some of the filenames (eg ATOZ013.MSL) suggest that the DEC product
A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
lee.gleason(a)comcast.ne
1:59 p.m.
On 6/26/23 13:17, Lee Gleason via cctalk wrote:
Some of the filenames (eg ATOZ013.MSL) suggest
that the DEC product
A-TO-Z might be involved. This was an RSX based product for small offices.
As I mentioned, it fits perfectly. In particular when I look at the
backup file, I run into this:
0000b030 3b 00 30 31 30 31 44 55 30 3a 5b 41 54 4f
5a 4d |;.0101DU0:[ATOZM|
0000b040 4f 44 5d 41 32 55 4d 41 49 4e 2e 4d 4e 55 20 20 |OD]A2UMAIN.MNU |
0000b050 20 20 20 20 4d 45 4e 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 | MEN |
0000b060 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 ff ff | ...|
|
...|
I did find a brief overall description of A2Z/A-to-Z here:
--Chuck
544
days inactive
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46 comments
17 participants
participants (17)
-
Antonio Carlini -
Bill Gunshannon -
Chris Zach -
Chris Zach -
Christian Corti -
Chuck Guzis -
Hans-Ulrich Hölscher -
Henry Bent -
Jon Elson -
Kenneth Gober -
Lee Gleason -
Patrick Finnegan -
Paul Koning -
Tomasz Rola -
Torfinn Ingolfsen -
Warner Losh -
Wayne S