[cctalk] Debugging possible RAM faults on OCC1

Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk(a)classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner(a)classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Saturn-Calc (Mark Matlock) 2. Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John Herron) 3. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 (Malcolm Macleod) 4. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis) 5. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Bill Degnan) 6. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John-Paul Stewart) 7. Re: Saturn-Calc (Kenneth Gober) 8. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis) 9. Re: SGI vs. Mac (Christian Liendo) 10. Re: Saturn-Calc (Chris Zach) 11. How to print old files. (ben) 12. Re: How to print old files. (Hugh Pyle) 13. Re: How to print old files. (Scott LaBombard) 14. Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 (Douglas Taylor) 15. Re: Saturn-Calc (Douglas Taylor) 16. Re: Saturn-Calc (Bill Gunshannon) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:40:38 -0600 From: Mark Matlock &lt;mark(a)matlockfamily.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;20082909-144D-498A-A264-51CB187B9325(a)matlockfamily.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Nigel, I’ve been trying to find a working distribution for PDP-11 Saturn-Calc and Graph for some years now. I had a licensed copy many years ago for RSX11M but it no longer works. I do have a working copy of Saturn-Calc and Graph (but not WP) for VMS on my MV3100-80 but not the VMS distribution. I have managed to contact the lead programmer that developed Saturn’s software through a former president of the company. The programmer believes he has a copy of the source code for PDP-11 and VAX on a CDROM that is in a storage unit. He has retired overseas and come back home where the storage unit is a couple times a year and I’m hoping he can find the CDROM on his next trip back. I can keep you posted on our progress in trying to recover this software. It helps that the programmer is interested in making the Saturn products available as it may need to be recompiled or at least relinked to be compatible with the newest versions of PDP-11 operating systems with Y2K etc. We thought we had it recovered a couple years ago when nine RX50 floppies were found in Australia that were from a distributor that could be used to generate new customer distributions, but there was no documentation and some info was missing. Also, manuals for the Saturn products have not been scanned so we are looking for them as well. If you had some specific Saturn Calc spreadsheets that you wanted data extracted from, I might be able to help you with my working VMS version of Calc. Saturn Calc was a great product that we used a great deal back in the day. The Saturn Graph product supported VT340s with the mouse and could generate plots a wide variety of HP and other plotters, printers, etc. Best Regards, Mark ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:17:40 -0600 From: John Herron &lt;barythrin(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Restoring unknown format backup tapes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;CAEOGs+jg=e6d4NQVz3+sn61Zw3naJXAWoP0SWyGfBg=N2N+kpw(a)mail.gmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and read/restore? Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:49:35 +1100 From: "Malcolm Macleod" &lt;malcolm(a)avitech.com.au&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 To: &lt;g4ajq1(a)gmail.com&gt; Cc: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: &lt;0edb01d91c98$9d4d8410$d7e88c30$(a)avitech.com.au&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. Hi Nigel, I have what appears to be a complete set of RX50 disks for CAL, WPS and GRF. Images are here -> http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=2570 I haven't tried them. Regards, Malcolm ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:01:35 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis &lt;cclist(a)sydex.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes To: John Herron via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;67281402-437f-ebdf-777b-2f8006e751e3(a)sydex.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast if stretched.  Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can result.   Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, what drive manufacturer and model, etc.)   There are lots of potential variations.   To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. --Chuck -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:37:01 -0500 From: Bill Degnan &lt;billdegnan(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;CABGJBuds2rt87icXc0qNmT1iosW0Bz1Jcn6OCXjFnEr_3kQ52A(a)mail.gmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be similar. Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. Bill On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:02:37 -0500 From: John-Paul Stewart &lt;jpstewart(a)personalprojects.net&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: &lt;dc496dec-d5f3-a71a-ce7c-a808488e062e(a)personalprojects.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 12/30/22 15:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: It is unlikely that the tapes are in tar format, so tar on Linux won't help. The chance that they are in tar format is much higher if they're from Amix (Amiga Unix) instead of AmigaOS. There is a better possibility that the tapes were created by BRU since AmigaOS 2.x (and maybe later) included a version of that. BRU is now Argest Backup, if you need to go down that road. It is also possible that the tapes were created with any of the many third-party backup applications that existed for AmigaOS. In any case, using dd (not tar) on Linux to copy the tapes to disk to "interpret" and "sort out files afterwards" is at least a starting point. Other list members are better qualified to comment on the physical aspects of doing that without destroying the fragile old tapes. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:03:37 -0500 From: Kenneth Gober &lt;kgober(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;CANHrbpei_uoTLKAF8a9Et_gBrXXJjsTZnsKoZDzhguHTvPFMFA(a)mail.gmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' disk images and have sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. -ken ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 18:04:06 -0800 From: Chuck Guzis &lt;cclist(a)sydex.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes To: Bill Degnan via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;46b41622-ce30-28f7-5357-ea2623bda12b(a)sydex.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 12/30/22 17:37, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Heck, I'd just unspool a bit of the stuff, drop some Kyread on it and have a gander with the old microscope.  That can at least tell me how many tracks are involved. But being a quarter-inch cartridge leaves a lot of ground open.  For instance, what if these tapes are Iotaamat-formatted?  A regular QIC drive will have nothing to do with them.  There were other manufacturers (Cipher 525) comes to mind that do not use standard formatting techniques.  On some of the later 8mm Travan carts, the tape is will-o'-the-wisp thin. FWIW, Chuck   ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 22:48:23 -0500 From: Christian Liendo &lt;cliendo(a)gmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com Message-ID: &lt;CAA9iAfuBwoa7+MkU=zU64ktOoQKA5Cx6KAFVM0vMqrL7W7+aCQ(a)mail.gmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I went to Onyx2/Origin 2000 training in Mountain View in the building that is now the Computer History Museum and I met a lot of Gov folks but I also met a lot of oil people who used SGIs to crunch data. At the time no one could touch them but that too changed As for workstations the one I remember being a real competitor was Intergraph. They had dual pentium pro boxes with proprietary cards that ran NT and Softimage. Microsoft bought Softimage to compete with SGI and SGI bought Alias Wavefront On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 23:44:03 -0500 From: Chris Zach &lt;cz(a)alembic.crystel.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: &lt;f8b7c3ed-3b2c-1cbd-352e-5a683d697610(a)alembic.crystel.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already. Where is it.... Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/ Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350). Let me know if those contain anything interesting. Chris On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 02:00:22 -0700 From: ben &lt;bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca&gt; Subject: [cctalk] How to print old files. To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: &lt;77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905(a)jetnet.ab.ca&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ← and ↑ 's and not printing _ and ^ ? Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 09:33:35 -0500 From: Hugh Pyle &lt;hpyle(a)cabezal.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;CALvn94+WB5mOiNSer6Gsm2t-2=wUnFoTg9Hi7tXZv6m2VZEAmw(a)mail.gmail.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There's a 'Teleprinter' font, which is close, but doesn't include the backward arrow: https://web.archive.org/web/20000819043545/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage… On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 4:00 AM ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 14:56:24 +0000 (UTC) From: Scott LaBombard &lt;labomb_s(a)yahoo.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files. To: ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;1139967668.3339176.1672498584861(a)mail.yahoo.com&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I remember having to do something like that some years ago. If the ASCII file isn't too long and you can manage with manual edits, you can load the document into an editor that supports 'alt' codes. On Windows, I just tried Microsoft Word. Hold the alt key down and enter the 2-digit code (on the numeric keypad) for the symbol you wish... ↑ is 24, and ← is 27. Just did a quick test and both printed fine on my HP printer, although as I recall the resulting symbols didn't look quite like the arrows in the original document. On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 04:00:33 AM EST, ben via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep the ← and ↑ 's and not printing _ and ^ ? Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:23:57 -0500 From: Douglas Taylor &lt;dj.taylor4(a)comcast.net&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;1903bca7-bf1c-a1b6-fbd7-b33498ba7412(a)comcast.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/29/2022 9:33 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I remember having a 11/03 system at work back in 1984 that had an attached printer with what looked like an ordinary parallel printer connector.  However, the signal protocols for the printer interface were different than the standard parallel interface everyone was using on their PC's.  I think they were close but you needed a printer that understood the DEC protocols.  Shouldn't be surprising to anyone from that era. Doug ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:28:25 -0500 From: Douglas Taylor &lt;dj.taylor4(a)comcast.net&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk &lt;cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; Message-ID: &lt;35185fa8-dc89-5a1d-a7f8-a17e7a6f3c6f(a)comcast.net&gt; Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have Saturn WP on it.  It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.  Long, long time ago.  I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone in the Wash DC area that can read them would help. Doug ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:39:04 -0500 From: Bill Gunshannon &lt;bill.gunshannon(a)hotmail.com&gt; Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: &lt;DM6PR06MB5580AAB10CA87FC8FAA4DF21EDF19(a)DM6PR06MB5580.nam prd06.prod.outlook.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 12/31/22 11:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: Tim Shoppa? bill End of cctalk Digest, Vol 148, Issue 1 **************************************