31 Dec
2022
31 Dec
'22
10:43 a.m.
I recently got an Osborne 1a, which needed a lot of cleaning and had probably been stored
in a barn for some time. After getting the drive parts to move freely again and removing a
blown cap on the power supply, the machine will start up and the screen is green, although
it's just showing some random characters. I understand from someone's advice that
some RAM may have gone bad. At this point I'm not sure if I should continue to try to
get this going, or just resign it to someone with better resources for diagnosing the
issues. If anyone has some advice for moving forward with this, I'd be interested to
listen. Some context: this is my first such restoration endeavor. Thanks - Steve
On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 12:00:07PM -0600, cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote:
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..."
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Saturn-Calc (Mark Matlock)
2. Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John Herron)
3. Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1 (Malcolm Macleod)
4. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis)
5. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Bill Degnan)
6. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (John-Paul Stewart)
7. Re: Saturn-Calc (Kenneth Gober)
8. Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes (Chuck Guzis)
9. Re: SGI vs. Mac (Christian Liendo)
10. Re: Saturn-Calc (Chris Zach)
11. How to print old files. (ben)
12. Re: How to print old files. (Hugh Pyle)
13. Re: How to print old files. (Scott LaBombard)
14. Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11 (Douglas Taylor)
15. Re: Saturn-Calc (Douglas Taylor)
16. Re: Saturn-Calc (Bill Gunshannon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 13:40:38 -0600
From: Mark Matlock <mark(a)matlockfamily.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20082909-144D-498A-A264-51CB187B9325(a)matlockfamily.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On Dec 30, 2022, at 12:00 PM,
cctalk-request(a)classiccmp.org wrote:
Hi all,
My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT11 backups, and
I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see again. My licensed copy
and the manual are long gone!
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all
zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Does anybody know of a source?
cheers,
Nigel
Nigel,
I’ve been trying to find a working distribution for PDP-11 Saturn-Calc and Graph for
some years now. I had a licensed copy many years ago for RSX11M but it no longer works. I
do have a working copy of Saturn-Calc and Graph (but not WP) for VMS on my MV3100-80 but
not the VMS distribution.
I have managed to contact the lead programmer that developed Saturn’s software
through a former president of the company. The programmer believes he has a copy of the
source code for PDP-11 and VAX on a CDROM that is in a storage unit. He has retired
overseas and come back home where the storage unit is a couple times a year and I’m hoping
he can find the CDROM on his next trip back. I can keep you posted on our progress in
trying to recover this software. It helps that the programmer is interested in making the
Saturn products available as it may need to be recompiled or at least relinked to be
compatible with the newest versions of PDP-11 operating systems with Y2K etc.
We thought we had it recovered a couple years ago when nine RX50 floppies were found
in Australia that were from a distributor that could be used to generate new customer
distributions, but there was no documentation and some info was missing. Also, manuals for
the Saturn products have not been scanned so we are looking for them as well.
If you had some specific Saturn Calc spreadsheets that you wanted data extracted
from, I might be able to help you with my working VMS version of Calc. Saturn Calc was a
great product that we used a great deal back in the day. The Saturn Graph product
supported VT340s with the mouse and could generate plots a wide variety of HP and other
plotters, printers, etc.
Best Regards,
Mark
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 14:17:40 -0600
From: John Herron <barythrin(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Restoring unknown format backup tapes
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<CAEOGs+jg=e6d4NQVz3+sn61Zw3naJXAWoP0SWyGfBg=N2N+kpw(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all
generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and
read/restore?
Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the
structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used,
would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then
see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards?
I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I
think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 08:49:35 +1100
From: "Malcolm Macleod" <malcolm(a)avitech.com.au>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1
To: <g4ajq1(a)gmail.com>
Cc: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <0edb01d91c98$9d4d8410$d7e88c30$(a)avitech.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:23:28 -0500
From: Nigel Johnson Ham <g4ajq1(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Saturn-Calc
To: cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb6299618ac(a)gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Hi all,
My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from
RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like
to see
again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone!
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear
to be
all zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Does anybody know of a source?
cheers,
Nigel
Hi Nigel,
I have what appears to be a complete set of RX50 disks for CAL, WPS and GRF.
Images are here -> http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=2570
I haven't tried them.
Regards,
Malcolm
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 17:01:35 -0800
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist(a)sydex.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
To: John Herron via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <67281402-437f-ebdf-777b-2f8006e751e3(a)sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
This may be a larger conversation than I intend
but how would you all
generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and
read/restore?
Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the
structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used,
would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then
see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards?
I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I
think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition.
The tape substrate itself, being
mylar, is very durable, but it's toast
if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone
slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can
result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts,
what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential
variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff.
--Chuck
--
--Chuck
Sent from my digital computer
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:37:01 -0500
From: Bill Degnan <billdegnan(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<CABGJBuds2rt87icXc0qNmT1iosW0Bz1Jcn6OCXjFnEr_3kQ52A(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear
patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types
of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal
clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in
certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to
compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be
similar.
Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems.
Bill
On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 20:02:37 -0500
From: John-Paul Stewart <jpstewart(a)personalprojects.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Message-ID:
<dc496dec-d5f3-a71a-ce7c-a808488e062e(a)personalprojects.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 12/30/22 15:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote:
This may be a larger conversation than I intend
but how would you all
generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and
read/restore?
Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the
structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used,
would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system?
Then
see if I can interpret the dump and sort out
files afterwards?
I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I
think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition.
The tape substrate itself, being
mylar, is very durable, but it's toast
if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone
slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can
result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts,
what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential
variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff.
--Chuck
--
--Chuck
Sent from my digital computer
This may be a larger conversation than I intend
but how would you all
generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and
read/restore?
Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the
structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used,
would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then
see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards?
It is unlikely that the tapes are in tar format, so tar on Linux won't
help. The chance that they are in tar format is much higher if they're
from Amix (Amiga Unix) instead of AmigaOS.
There is a better possibility that the tapes were created by BRU since
AmigaOS 2.x (and maybe later) included a version of that. BRU is now
Argest Backup, if you need to go down that road.
It is also possible that the tapes were created with any of the many
third-party backup applications that existed for AmigaOS.
In any case, using dd (not tar) on Linux to copy the tapes to disk to
"interpret" and "sort out files afterwards" is at least a starting
point.
Other list members are better qualified to comment on the physical
aspects of doing that without destroying the fragile old tapes.
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 21:03:37 -0500
From: Kenneth Gober <kgober(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<CANHrbpei_uoTLKAF8a9Et_gBrXXJjsTZnsKoZDzhguHTvPFMFA(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark
Matlock, but the disks
appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than
'logical'
disk images and have
sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places.
-ken
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 18:04:06 -0800
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist(a)sydex.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
To: Bill Degnan via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <46b41622-ce30-28f7-5357-ea2623bda12b(a)sydex.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On 12/30/22 17:37, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
THere were certain tape manufacturers and
plastic/metal clip marks and wear
patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types
of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal
clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in
certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to
compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be
similar.
Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems.
Bill
Heck, I'd just unspool a bit of the stuff, drop some Kyread on it and
have a gander with the old microscope. That can at least tell me how
many tracks are involved.
But being a quarter-inch cartridge leaves a lot of ground open. For
instance, what if these tapes are Iotaamat-formatted? A regular QIC
drive will have nothing to do with them. There were other manufacturers
(Cipher 525) comes to mind that do not use standard formatting
techniques. On some of the later 8mm Travan carts, the tape is
will-o'-the-wisp thin.
FWIW,
Chuck
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 22:48:23 -0500
From: Christian Liendo <cliendo(a)gmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Cc: skogkatt007(a)yahoo.com
Message-ID:
<CAA9iAfuBwoa7+MkU=zU64ktOoQKA5Cx6KAFVM0vMqrL7W7+aCQ(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
I went to Onyx2/Origin 2000 training in Mountain View in the building that
is now the Computer History Museum and I met a lot of Gov folks but I also
met a lot of oil people who used SGIs to crunch data. At the time no one
could touch them but that too changed
As for workstations the one I remember being a real competitor was
Intergraph. They had dual pentium pro boxes with proprietary cards that ran
NT and Softimage. Microsoft bought Softimage to compete with SGI and SGI
bought Alias Wavefront
On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
Really without the US government as a customer I wonder how many of these
companies could have made it on industry alone.
- Ethan
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 23:44:03 -0500
From: Chris Zach <cz(a)alembic.crystel.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <f8b7c3ed-3b2c-1cbd-352e-5a683d697610(a)alembic.crystel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already.
Where is it....
Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/
Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit
guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350).
Let me know if those contain anything interesting.
Chris
On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote:
On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham
via cctalk <
cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 02:00:22 -0700
From: ben <bfranchuk(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
Subject: [cctalk] How to print old files.
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <77511893-b967-7349-2bb0-a6d0f7af2905(a)jetnet.ab.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep
the ← and ↑ 's
and not printing _ and ^ ?
Ben.
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 09:33:35 -0500
From: Hugh Pyle <hpyle(a)cabezal.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files.
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID:
<CALvn94+WB5mOiNSer6Gsm2t-2=wUnFoTg9Hi7tXZv6m2VZEAmw(a)mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
There's a 'Teleprinter' font, which is close, but doesn't include the
backward arrow:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000819043545/ourworld.compuserve.com/homepage…
On Sat, Dec 31, 2022 at 4:00 AM ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark
Matlock, but the disks
appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than
'logical'
disk images and have
sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd
places.
-ken How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern
devices, so you keep
the ← and ↑ 's
and not printing _ and ^ ?
Ben.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 14:56:24 +0000 (UTC)
From: Scott LaBombard <labomb_s(a)yahoo.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: How to print old files.
To: ben via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1139967668.3339176.1672498584861(a)mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I remember having to do something like that some years ago. If the ASCII file isn't
too long and you can manage with manual edits, you can load the document into an editor
that supports 'alt' codes. On Windows, I just tried Microsoft Word.
Hold the alt key down and enter the 2-digit code (on the numeric keypad) for the symbol
you wish... ↑ is 24, and ← is 27. Just did a quick test and both printed fine on my HP
printer, although as I recall the resulting symbols didn't look quite like the arrows
in the original document.
On Saturday, December 31, 2022 at 04:00:33 AM EST, ben via cctalk
<cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
How do you print old files in ASCII 63 to modern devices, so you keep
the ← and ↑ 's
and not printing _ and ^ ?
Ben.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:23:57 -0500
From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4(a)comcast.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Manual for MDB MLSI-LP11
To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1903bca7-bf1c-a1b6-fbd7-b33498ba7412(a)comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/29/2022 9:33 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
My re-build of a BA23 11/73 system continues. I
have one of these MDB
printer controllers but cannot make it do anything more that home page
on the laser using RT-11
Does anybody have a manual or know where I can download one.
An extensive search using google just brings up a data sheet.
Happy New Year to all,
Nigel
I remember having a 11/03 system at work back in 1984 that had an
attached printer with what looked like an ordinary parallel printer
connector. However, the signal protocols for the printer interface were
different than the standard parallel interface everyone was using on
their PC's. I think they were close but you needed a printer that
understood the DEC protocols. Shouldn't be surprising to anyone from
that era.
Doug
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:28:25 -0500
From: Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4(a)comcast.net>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
To: Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <35185fa8-dc89-5a1d-a7f8-a17e7a6f3c6f(a)comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote:
Hi all,
My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from
RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would
like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone!
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks
appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Does anybody know of a source?
cheers,
Nigel
I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have
Saturn WP on it. It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.
Long, long time ago. I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone
in the Wash DC area that can read them would help.
Doug
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2022 11:39:04 -0500
From: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon(a)hotmail.com>
Subject: [cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <DM6PR06MB5580AAB10CA87FC8FAA4DF21EDF19(a)DM6PR06MB5580.nam
prd06.prod.outlook.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
On 12/31/22 11:28, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
On 12/30/2022 7:23 AM, Nigel Johnson Ham via
cctalk wrote:
Tim Shoppa?
bill
End of cctalk Digest, Vol 148, Issue 1
************************************** Hi all,
My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from
RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would
like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone!
I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks
appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be.
Does anybody know of a source?
cheers,
Nigel
I have some DEC format 8 inch floppies from the mid 1980's that may have
Saturn WP on it. It rings a bell, I think I had a copy at one time.
Long, long time ago. I can't read the floppies (got no drive), anyone
in the Wash DC area that can read them would help.