[cctalk] Re: Running DOS executables on other versions of DOSRe: Looking for Sharp PC-5000 disk drive (CE-510F or possibly MZ-80B)

Thomas, Those images for the SHARP PC-5000 boot disk of MS-DOS 2.00 have worked splendidly (at least the .IMD files, DiskImage is all I tried). I did have to change the IMD Settings to Sides Two, Double-step On, and the 250kps to 300kps. I don't fully understand that last setting, but absolutely it was necessary - the IMD image file wouldn't write to disk otherwise. That did contain the FORMAT.COM (as you mentioned), which I then used to format a few other disks. There is no /? help on that early build of FORMAT. But /s would transfer system files, and /8 would format to a 320KB disk (that was a 320KB bootable disk, but a regular 360KB was bootable as well). Not that I'll need 320KB formatted disks, but just interesting that it can boot from either format. In the disk image share is CE-101FA.jpg that appears to be the front cover of the MS-DOS manual. In a parts listing for this system, I see a line item "CE-100F MS-DOS diskette and manual $25.00" The User Manual that I have only covers some DOS commands (DIR, MKDIR, DEL, and batch commands like IF, FOR, REM), but on the MS-DOS 2.00 disks are some extra things like CREF.COM, KEYBFR.COM. Any chance anyone has this CE-100F manual digitized? It might cover the MS-DOS programs and their arguments. Thanks again Thomas, the drives and boot images are working great! -Steve On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 1:50 PM osi.superboard via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I think I can help you. > I have a PC-5000 disk image of a double-sided 5.25 disk (360kb format) > called CE-101FA on my Google Drive. > > > https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qo6A3ZzkOHzxh5M5XEjqcKPP2F63Zi9P?us… > > The images were created with a Greazweasel. For test read twice, but > identical in both cases. > The disk files can be found in the Disk_Image directory. Including > Format and Basic and Macro Assembler and so on. Also various image > formats for creating disks. > > Enjoy > > Thomas > > On 20.10.2024 08:03, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: >> Hi Mike!! Oh I was so nervous taking it apart - I was thinking of > you, >> and worrying about how I'm probably going to end up having to sadly > explain >> why this system doesn't work anymore. But 'lo and behold, I did manage > to >> get it back together! (notes are in my PC-5000 page linked earlier, > which >> is now a bit long winded for a single page - I'll spit it out > eventually). >> >> I was trying to go after the CMOS battery, or its equivalent - but wow, >> Sharp made that very difficult. As you'll see in the photos, the >> component side of the mainboard is actually pointed down. Since this is >> still very much a working system, I didn't feel comfortable completely >> disassembling it - you have to get the entire mainboard out. But I got > to >> the vicinity of the area at least. On the positive, my thinking is that >> since the battery is "inverted" from normal and pointing towards the > ground >> - if it does leak, it'll just leak into the plastic base of the system. >> >> With the disk drives, I can now get new software onto the system more >> easily. But, looks like I'll have to give up on making a boot disk > floppy >> for the system. I've added a ton of notes to my PC-5000 page about it. >> >> >> @Fred Cisin - I did manage to digest and follow your DEBUG.COM advise, > and >> it all did work (in getting past "incorrect DOS version"). But when it >> came to the business of actually executing a format, they still did not >> work. As others have suspect, we're just going to need to find that >> original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 boot disk someday. In poking around the > MS-DOS >> 2.00 source code on github, it actually doesn't have a pre-built > FORMAT.COM >> - instead it has a FORMAT.DOC file that describes notes on what is > expected >> for an OEM vendor to implement to support doing a format. While we did >> finally find a format that allows SYS.COM to work, it's still > mysterious on >> why the (bootable) bubble memory report 6 hidden files, but a SYS'd disk > is >> only reporting 2 hidden files (I think someone else here did cover that, > in >> suggesting some vendors did need extra files to fully implementation > their >> DOS?) So it's been a valiant effort, but I'm content enough just being >> able to move files on/off the system via disks - meanwhile we'll just > hunt >> for that original Sharp MS-DOS 2.00 image, it surely is somewhere "out >> there" eventually. >> (again, notes on this are on my PC-5000 page - but the short of it is: >> - MS-DOS 1.25 FORMAT.COM didn't care about version but didn't even try > to >> actually format (locked up) >> - (Sharp) MS-DOS 2.11 FORMAT.COM was patched, and would show help on >> command line arguments, but wouldn't actually run when given /2 /8 or /S, >> etc. >> - MS-DOS 3.30 FORMAT.COM was patched, but declared the target drive as >> ASSIGNed or SUBSTed and refused to proceed >> >> >> The disk controller interface on this system just isn't "PC Compatible" >> enough. >> >> -SL >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 12:43 PM Mike Stein &lt;mhs.stein(a)gmail.com&gt; wrote: >> >>> Great to see my old PC5000 receiving so much loving attention; thanks >>> Steve! >>> >>> FWIW, related to the discussion elsewhere about BBSs, that PC5000 was >>> originally owned by Canada Remote Systems, a smaller Canadian version of >>> Compuserve based here in Toronto, It was a fairly large (by Canadian >>> standards) commercial BBS system of the 80s and 90s, noted primarily for >>> its extensive file collection; I think I still have some of their >>> collection disks on 8" media somewhere. >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 19, 2024 at 10:05 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk < >>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; wrote: >>> >>>> Some interesting things (on PC-5000): >>>> >>>> - I copied over QMATH, and old command line "parsing-calculator" I did > in >>>> Turbo Pascal decades ago (probably about 1992, so post MSDOS5 at > least), >>>> and it runs on the PC-5000! It's packaged in my "VUC" tools here > (along >>>> with CDIR) voidstar78/VUC4DOS: voidstar Utility Collection for > (MS/DR/PC) >>>> DOS (github.com) <https://github.com/voidstar78/VUC4DOS> >>>> That just speaks well to the PC-5000 really being MS-DOS compatible > (and >>>> that it ran an executable from a much later generation of MS-DOS). > Note >>>> that CDIR itself doesn't run on that MS-DOS 2.00 system (I suspect >>>> anything >>>> that "touches color" won't run, based on trying to run a few other > similar >>>> type things) >>>> >>>> - VER is saying MS-DOS 2.00, same as the startup/bootup note. Though > it >>>> does say the "Command v2.02" shortly after (I suspect as it is loading > the >>>> command.com, or in any case just prior to invoking autoexec.bat) >>>> >>>> - I don't have a "native" DEBUG.COM for 2.X yet (and ended up in a bad >>>> time >>>> that archive.org is majorly down again). And trying to run DEBUG.COM >>>> from >>>> 3.30 disks on the PC-5000 just says "Incorrect DOS version" (was we've >>>> discussed, which as mentioned I'll have to debug the debug.com on > another >>>> system first to patch it) >>>> >>>> I'll dig into the .COM patching later, have some errands this weekend >>>> first. Plus, it turns out I "blew up" my parallel port *again*. > Modern >>>> day, we take it for granted about USB being hot-swappable. Well, >>>> parallel-ports apparently aren't that forgiving - and I keep forgetting >>>> that. I've zapped two parallel cards now while swapping between > parallel >>>> devices. (which I'm making good progress figuring out the "retro >>>> printer" >>>> that will emulator old printers and let us print from old software and > go >>>> straight to a PDF, but still working on it) The LPT devices > themselves >>>> are fine, just I really heard the electrical pop and just the parallel >>>> port >>>> is absolutely dead (everything else seems fine though) >>>> >>>> More to report later, but was excited that "something from the future" >>>> (qmath.exe built almost a decade after the PC-5000 was sold) worked. >>>> >>>> >>>> -SteveL >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 18, 2024 at 6:35 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < >>>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org&gt; >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Steve Lewis wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I follow all that (on the DEBUG.COM notes) and appreciate the notes > - >>>>> that >>>>>> will save some time, I look forward to trying a few things out >>>> tomorrow. >>>>>> I forgot to do VER explicitly, but on boot up it is saying MS-DOS >>>> 2.00. >>>>>> And just now, I recalled that on github there is MS-DOS source (and >>>>> bins) - >>>>>> I think Dave's Garage, he recently did a video on building and > booting >>>>>> MS-DOS 4.0 from that source. Maybe I should use this as an excuse > to >>>>> try >>>>>> a 2.0 build? Or least, reading through the FORMAT.ASM, I see all >>>> the >>>>>> DOSVER checking stuff - helps confirm patch addresses, or maybe try >>>> just >>>>>> recompiling that one utility without this check. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Reading through the CONFIG.txt in the MS-DOS 2.0 github repo, it's >>>>>> interesting near the end: (the use of forward slash instead of >>>>> backslash, >>>>>> ha! and just above this, the comments mention /dev/<dev>) >>>>>> >>>>>> "A typical configuration file might look like this: >>>>>> >>>>>> BUFFERS = 10 >>>>>> FILES = 10 >>>>>> DEVICE = /bin/network.sys >>>>>> BREAK = ON >>>>>> SWITCHAR = - >>>>>> SHELL = a:/bin/command.com a:/bin -p" >>>>> GOOD >>>>> So, you should be able to patch FORMAT 2.11 ti work on the DOS version >>>>> that is running. >>>>> >>>>> BUT, whether Format /S or SYS will work remains to be seen. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I have seen cases where the opening banner does not quite match the >>>> stored >>>>> version number, such as 4.01 V 4.00 >>>>> and a conditional jmp needs an exact match. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So, definitely run VER >>>>> >>>>> and/or >>>>> in debug A(Assemble) >>>>> >>>>> MOV AH,30 >>>>> INT 21 >>>>> INT 3 ; ends program and displays registers >>>>> >>>>> and see what it shows in AX >>>>> (running that in CMD of my Windows 7 gives 0005 (5.00)!) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One of the early homework assignments when I taught PC Assembly was to >>>> go >>>>> into DEBUG and patch LINK.EXE and EXE2BIN.EXE to eliminate DOD version >>>>> checking. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com >>>>>