G'day,
I have a ThornEMI Datatech 9800 9-track tape drive.
Has anyone a user- or service-manual or a description how to load a tape?
This drive can load the 7" 9-track tape reels and has an industrial interface with edge-connectors P1 and P2.
Thanks in advance
Lothar
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Hi list,
since I am not getting any emails from our classiccmp mailing list anymore since mid of March, I would like to send this test email and see if it arrives and gets back to me.
Appologies for the noise created.
Pierre
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.digitalheritage.de
Oh right, that's an important piece haha. I imagine fusing that Arduino
project mentioned earlier in the thread with an SPI RAM chip and little
extra firmware should be able to grab any length of tape one may have.
--
Anders Nelson
On Sun, Apr 13, 2025, 4:59 PM Mike Katz <bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com> wrote:
> Plus the circuit and software to operate it and convert the data to serial
> or USB CID.
>
> On Apr 13, 2025 3:10 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> Here's a super cheap reader assembly you could bolt to a board, then hang
> your supply reel from a bolt stuck in it if you're looking for the lowest
> cost option:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/224491588288
> --
> Anders Nelson
>
> On Sun, Apr 13, 2025, 6:49 AM Martin Bishop via cctalk <
> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > The Sanyo Denki readers I have known use sprocket wheel feed, an
> > additional means of damaging tapes.
> >
> > The Fanuc readers use a friction pinch, "rubber on steel", so they can't
> > "saw" the tapes.
> >
> > Perhaps a consideration - if one has a choice
> >
> > Martin
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> > Sent: 13 April 2025 02:18
> > To: Ethan Dicks via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> > Cc: Chuck Guzis <cclist(a)sydex.com>
> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Paper Tape Reader Needed
> >
> > My PT reader is a Sanyo Denki, from a piece of CNC gear. (Bitsavers has
> > some docs on those), Added a +5/+24 power suppy and a STM32 "Blue Pill"
> > MCU interfacing as a USB communications device.
> >
> > Easy peasy and woks a treat.
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
>
>
>
Folks
The jpg I posted previously https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/Pic16F13145FanucInterfac… says it all cryptically
To unpack the approach:
- ex CNC machine paper tape readers are available, the Fanuc ones are both common and susceptable to house training
- so 1) is buy a fanuc PTR + interface : part nos and current picks below
- the required supplies are 200 V 50/60 Hz ~23W, 24V DC at ~1A2, 5V DC ~325 mA
- the Fanuc interface board is https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A20B-0007-075D_Ptr_Inter… series 74 TTL IO
- my interface bodgit uses a PIC16F13145 EVB as it has 5V IO (which is just the thing for series 74) and some CLBs (a joke, but you have to walk the ground)
- so 2) you need a https://www.microchip.com/en-us/development-tool/ev06m52a to convert parallel octets into serial output
- the interconnect board is connectors and wiring, the one illustrated is built for ease rather than compactness
- so 3) DIY time, [DrB] the wire list for marrying PTR and PIC[DrB] is in the .zip
- a project archive for the PIC containing sources and binary is available for download
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/FanucInterFace1.zip should contain working code for MPLAB/X
- my Fanuc zoo https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/visualise.php depicts the interconnect board
https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/Pic16F13145FanucInterfac…https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/Pic16F13145FanucInterfac…
FWIW I usually use a Zynq to interface PTRs, this design was an exploration of the 16F13145's capabilities, serendipitously providing a "uart" on an EVB solution
The PTRs run the capstan continuously, the pinch roller is engaged by the centre off switch on the front panel: Manual - feeds tape, but does not assert DataValid; Auto - feeds tape and asserts DataValid. The PIC outputs octets when DataValid is asserted. The pinch roller is engaged when Auto or Manual is selected. The Brake Clamp is engaged when the NO foot pedal is closed. The PT feed is friction, the reader is opto with LED illumination.
The A02B-0047-C061 is compact https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A02B-0047-C061_Ptr_Front…, but may not come with a Fanuc interface card A20B-007-075D https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A20B-0007-075D_Ptr_Inter… (which you will need).
The A13B-0070-B001 is a 6U 19" rack panel https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/A13B-0070-B001_Ptr_Bin_F… typically the interface card is attached to this panel
So, picks from eBay.com are:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/126851010269https://www.ebay.com/itm/393980423195 although I have no idea if the PSU is any more than an ornament
https://www.ebay.com/itm/233194641467 or https://www.ebay.com/itm/304005388602 plus https://www.ebay.com/itm/184870581852 or https://www.ebay.com/itm/293557099779
or with a diy panel https://www.ebay.com/itm/224491588288
etc etc
More than one set of bits may be required to eliminate squeaks, but the simple PTRs usu seem to work
Also,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/150974081687 is RtR and uses the same IO interface card as its lesser siblings - I'm (still) reverse engineering the push button and remote logic which is for CNC Gcode use cases
https://www.ebay.com/itm/167311496458 is 2nd generation RtR and I have yet to make mine work ...; item zero is stw a (mechanically damaged) AC PSU ...
HtH, Fanuc also made a PPR Punch Printer Reader with a serial (usu 4800) baud interface https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/405256535393
This cookery makes serviceable PTRs out of inexpensive pre used readers - ten times cheaper than a PPR ?
And of course my wiring sheet tells you how to hook up to your favorite hardware - game on ?
Martin
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Katz [mailto:bitwiz@12bitsbest.com]
Sent: 11 April 2025 15:59
To: Martin Bishop <mjd.bishop(a)emeritus-solutions.com>
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Paper Tape Reader Needed
I'm intrigued...
On 4/11/2025 5:54 AM, Martin Bishop wrote:
> Mike
>
> If a clone of https://www.emeritus-solutions.com/papertape/fanuc/Pic16F13145FanucInterfac… would solve your problem I'm happy to share the cookery.
>
> With 60 Hz AC 300cps to a serial port (USB C); the 1/4" jack is for a foot pedal "hold".
>
> For US sources of readers see eg : https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=fanuc+tape+reader - $50 to $3000 for the same thing ...
>
> Martin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Katz via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: 10 April 2025 17:10
> To: Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk(a)classiccmp.org>
> Cc: Mike Katz <bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com>
> Subject: [cctalk] Paper Tape Reader Needed
>
> I have acquired a bunch of PDP-8 and PDP-12 paper tapes and I need a reader so that I can archive them.
>
> Does anyone have a serial (RS-232) or USB reader or reader/punch that needs a good home or can be purchased for a reasonable price?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Mike
> bitwiz(a)12bitsbest.com
At 12:39 PM 4/9/2025, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>I'll continue to play with it but my initial reactions still stand.
>No sign of intelligence and not ready for prime-time.
What did you ask it to do? Exactly, I mean? When it didn't give you
the answer you wanted, what did you say next?
It would not surprise me if comp-sci departments now offer a major
in writing GPT queries.
Today's AI wranglers might be writing queries that range from a few
words to a many pages of text. They're also having a conversation
with it to refine their query. It's more than google.com circa 2005.
Many of us spent years learning how to get better results from Google
more often, after all.
I don't have a problem with skepticism about it. Call it a parlor trick
all day long, tell me it's not *truly* intelligent, but you should also
examine it enough to get to the point where you'll say "that's truly an
amazing and perhaps sometimes very useful parlor trick."
- John
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I wonder if this helped start the microcomputer revolution, OS-side, or
was this a re-hash of what already was available?
It's a historical event as per se but much more than that I'm not sure!
Happy computing!
Murray 🙂
So, I am working on another fun project on my trusty old TRS-80's.
I need the ability to do multi-line functions which TRS-80 BASIC
does not support. But in hopes of finding something where someone
added that capability in the distant past (there were lots of features
added by various people over time) I decided to just try a Google
Search. As we all know Google now begins results with an AI generated
answer to your question. This is what I got:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
In TRS-80 BASIC, you can create multi-line functions (subroutines)
using the DEF FN statement, allowing you to define a function that
can perform a specific task and be called from different parts of
your program.
Here's how it works:
DEF FN Statement:
You use the DEF FN statement to define a function, followed by the
function name (e.g., FNMyFunction), a set of parentheses for any
arguments, and then the code that the function will execute.
Example: 10 DEF FNC(X,Y) = X*X + Y*Y defines a function named FNC
that takes two arguments (X and Y) and returns the sum of their squares.
Function Call:
To use the function, you simply call it by its name, passing in the
necessary arguments.
Example: 20 PRINT FNC(3,4) would print the value returned by the FNC
function when called with arguments 3 and 4, which is 25.
Multi-line Functions:
You can extend the DEF FN statement to span multiple lines, allowing
for more complex logic within the function.
Example:
Code
10 DEF FNC(X,Y)
20 LET TEMP = X * X
30 LET TEMP = TEMP + Y * Y
40 DEF FN END
50 PRINT FNC(3,4)
This example defines a function that calculates the sum of squares
of two numbers, but the calculation is broken down into multiple
lines for readability.
Key Points:
Line Numbers:
TRS-80 BASIC relies on line numbers, so make sure to use them
appropriately when defining multi-line functions.
Function Name:
Function names must start with FN followed by a valid identifier
(e.g., FNC, FNMyFunction).
DEF FN END:
You need to use DEF FN END to mark the end of the function
definition, especially when using multi-line functions.
Scope:
Functions are defined within the scope of the program and are
accessible from anywhere in the program.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is both wrong and totally absurd.
And I see things all the time about letting AI write your code for you.
Does anyone actually trust AI to write code?
bill
Bob Grabau <rgrabau1(a)verizon.net> write:
> As my memory serves, there was a class given by the Southern
> California Computer Society (SCCS) in which the disassembled the
> Altair Basic (not sure if it was the 4k or 8k version) and used the
> output of that disassembly for the class. There was a guy who had the
> complete annotated (by the class) of the source as printed out copies
> in his trunk, which he just handed out to anyone that asked for it.
> This was somewhere between 1975-1978 (76-77 most likely) when I was a
> member of SCCS.
I was part of that disassembly effort and remember it well! I'm pretty
sure I still have my copy of it stashed away here. It was a lot of
fun. I had been a very early (1974) user of the 8080 at NCR, and
this gave me a chance to contribute to the knowledge base.
One thing I intend to do with this listing is find a piece of code
I worked to disassemble, and read the comments.
As I recall, it was part of some error handling. It consisted of a
string of three-byte instructions that did nothing important, but if you
jumped into the second byte of one, it would (as I recall) act as a
two-byte instruction and load a register with an error code. After
executing that 2/3 instruction, it fell into the remaining string of
three-byte instructions which did nothing of interest. At the end,
it would take the value that had been loaded earlier and use it.
I was simultaneously impressed and appalled by this space-saving
coding technique.
I'm disappointed that two printer pages are combined into a single
PDF page, as it makes it a bit difficult to read. Still, it is a
great window into the minds of Bill, Paul, and Monte.
Alan Frisbie
"Ancient BASIC dialects" seems like a rather small obscure domain
and as they say, they're not making any more of them. I'd think
that if you trained an AI on enough examples, they'd do much better.
The BASIC language isn't that complex compared to modern languages
where people are finding AI as a useful assistant, like it or not.
Think of it like old-school "pair programming" that gives you
a friend in your cube to talk to.
- John
I have a scan of the following:
LSI-11 BUS INTERFAE CHIPKIT/PROGRAM CONTROL DCK11-AA,-AC
October, 1977
Phil Champaigne
Logic Products
MR2-2/X6645
If someone is interested in a copy, preferably someone who can host
it, please contact me.
don
The why not use a UniBone comment has merit, what will your (FPGA)
> implementation add ?
>
Well,
I know the Unibone!
Surely is a very capable system for emulation of older hardware and
interfaces.
Also performances are good as far as I understand (I don't have one).
I have the idea of extending the concept of Unibone.
The new design shall be modular, composed by:
- a main board hosting the SoM and common interfaces (Ethernet, SD, USB,
console)
- a bus module for specific bus / machine: support could be added for DEC /
Data General / other?
- an interchangeable interface module for an hardware device (SMD, Pertec,
floppy, RX1/2, RL01/02, other).
Any kind of interface could be supported, also for example ADC, DAC, maybe
video to some limits...)
If you have main module and bus module, you have a similar solution to
Unibone / Qbone. However if you need to change bus type, you need to swap
only the bus adapter (cheaper).
If you have main and interfaces modules,
you can control physical devices directly,
and do anything with it. For example, you can dump / restore the content of
a SMD disk at bit level, no need to know the controller format, etc.
Similar to Kyroflux for floppy, but MUCH faster!
Alternatively, you could also emulate the device at low level (for example
a generic SMD disk).
If you have a set of main, bus and interface modules,
you can do anything as above, plus you can emulate a controller for a
specific machine for a specific device.
That said, implementing "anything" would be an infinite effort, but the
platform is flexible, so support could be added step-by-step.
So why an FPGA?
A programmable logic can implement a true digital circuit, where the PRUs
in the BeagleBone are processors. This means that in an FPGA the time is
always precisely determined by a clock, in PRUs it is affected by the
software execution.
This means that a PRU can work quite well on an asynchronous bus, provided
that sample rate is sufficient, even if not constant.
But for a fast synchronous interface, i.e. when time is determined by an
external clock, often embedded with data, no software approach can work
steadily in my opinion.
One thing is true: programming an FPGA is designing a netlist, not
developing a software.
It can be very hard to debug sometimes, because the approach is more
similar to repairing an old board with a Logic Analyzer than perform
debugging in software: it's a circuit in a chip, there no step-by-step
execution!
Nevertheless:
I'm a quite good electronic engineer,
highly experienced with digital logic and FPGA, so the hardware design
wouldn't be a problem. Just a matter of time.
Nowadays a SoM with a smaller AMD Zynq7010/7020 (a system-on-chip including
an FPGA, plus dual core CPU, lot of peripherals) doesn't cost a lot,
and have a great usage flexibility.
Also brute computing power is superior to older BB.
Why not try?
I'm open to your comments.
As for the UNIBUS unobtainable transceivers: I think the best solution is
to use AM26S10 for drivers, and an LVC logic powered at 3.3v for receivers.
Both are active parts costing nuts.
I would try this approach.
Andrea
