cctech Digest, Vol 34, Issue 15
Tim Mann
tim at tim-mann.org
Sun Apr 16 19:13:26 CDT 2017
Brief comments on a couple of topics...
I hadn't heard of the MISE or M3SE before, so I googled. Remarkable
projects. It's pretty tempting to get an M3SE to play with on the Model 4P
that I bought as a reference platform when I was adding 4P support to xtrs.
(I don't have any other physical TRS-80s anymore.) Time continues to be a
big problem in the way of doing retrocomputing stuff, though.
I heard about Bob Taylor's death through a farewell email that Bob composed
and had his son send out to Bob's old associates after his death. A bit
spooky. I worked for Bob for several years at DEC SRC.
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:00 AM, <cctech-request at classiccmp.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news (Jon Elson)
> 2. Re: MISE and M3SE (Peter Cetinski)
> 3. Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory (william degnan)
> 4. Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory (Warner Losh)
> 5. Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news (Kirk Davis)
> 6. Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news (Al Kossow)
> 7. Nat Semi 32016 Genix backup floppies available (Jon Elson)
> 8. Silent 700 thermal paper (Charles Dickman)
> 9. Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers) (Charles Dickman)
> 10. Re: Silent 700 thermal paper (Paul Berger)
> 11. Re: Silent 700 thermal paper (Fred Cisin)
> 12. Re: Silent 700 thermal paper (Chuck Guzis)
> 13. Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers) (Jon Elson)
> 14. Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers) (Vincent Slyngstad)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:34:12 -0500
> From: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
> To: Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net>, General at ezwind.net,
> Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news
> Message-ID: <58F23D74.7030603 at pico-systems.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 04/15/2017 12:00 AM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote:
> > Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week.
> >
> > Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the
> > Bendix G-15. He was also known for helping overseas
> > universities start their CS programs. Harry was 101.
> >
> Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea he was still around! I
> hope he wrote up some memoirs or left stories.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:40:18 -0400
> From: Peter Cetinski <pete at pski.net>
> To: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com>, "General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: MISE and M3SE
> Message-ID: <952A026C-4508-43F0-959D-9DB3A3177547 at pski.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well, now that I know there are TRS-80 afficianados here i wonder if
> there
> > are any MISE/M3SE experts? I have both running here now and really like
> > them. But, back in the "good ole days" I was priomarily a DOSPLUS user
> > with a little NEWDOS80 once in a while. I was wondering if it is
> possible
> > to get either or both of these DOSes working with the MISE & M3SE.
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > bill
>
> Bill, there is a MISE yahoo group that Peter Bartlett maintains and
> actively supports so you may want to ask there. But, I can tell you that
> MISE/M3SE utilize quite a bit of custom driver code so it would be a
> significant effort to support other OSes. However, its probably best to
> ask the creator himself.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:56:59 -0400
> From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>
> To: "Tapley, Mark" <mtapley at swri.edu>, "General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory
> Message-ID:
> <CABGJBudW89B98D0vuKoMDMB0eHFQi1uB_R=E14rx8kDoR5afNA at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> >
> >
> > Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN
> >
> > ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte
> > option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number
> > PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ?
> > ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same printed
> > circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the
> > 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as
> three
> > 64K byte memory stacks. ...
> >
> >
> > From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table
> > C-1
> > ?
> > 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC
> > 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD
> > 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY
> > 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ
> > ?
> >
> > Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX
> disks. I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three
> and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here. All of this talk
> has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just got
> this week works. In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and
> parts.
>
> Not saying I plan to sell anything in particular, but once I assess my
> systems and get one good maxed out working system going I will probably
> sell off the spare parts.
>
> Bill
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:32:27 -0600
> From: Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com>
> To: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com>, "General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: WTB: DEC Rainbow Expansion Memory
> Message-ID:
> <CANCZdfp9U2nVXqjPX48Z+43CWTw_1X1PDOVhCb06w46KgAxzfg at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:56 AM, william degnan via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Rainbow Memory Extension Option Installation Guide: EK-PCMKE-IN
> >>
> >> ?Two versions of the memory extension option are available: a 64 K byte
> >> option (part number PC1XX-AA) and a 192K byte option (part number
> >> PC1XX-AB). The memory option is installed in the J6 connector ?
> >> ? Both versions of the memory extension option use the same
> printed
> >> circuit board etch and the same type of 6kK x 1 bit memory chips. ? the
> >> 192K byte version contains twenty-seven 64K x 1 bit chips arranged as
> three
> >> 64K byte memory stacks. ...
> >>
> >>
> >> From my Rainbow Owner?s manual 1st ed. Sept 1983, Appx. C, Table
> >> C-1
> >> ?
> >> 64K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AC
> >> 256K byte memory board option: PC1XX-AD
>
> I think that have what looks like the AD option, but it only brings my
> Rainbow 100A up to 256k. I bought the 100A recently based on a seller
> telling me it was a 100B. Grump. But at least its floppy controller
> and drive are in much better shape than my old ones, so I have some
> parts now. Just not sure what to do with them, but they may become
> spare parts, which I might be willing to part with. Not sure yet.
>
> Also, the boards themselves have numbers like 53xxxxxx and don't list
> the actual part. So googling for them often involves googling for that
> number because it's what sellers have easily available to them...
>
> >> 64K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AY
> >> 256K byte memory component kit (9 chips) PC1XX-AZ
> >> ?
> >>
> >> Hope this helps.
> >
> >
> >
> > Just chiming in...I am the person who provided Warner with the VENIX
> > disks. I probably have more RAM than I need in my machines (I have three
> > and I think I have an A, B, and a regular Rainbow here. All of this talk
> > has peaked my interest to set mine up and see if the new Rainbow I just
> got
> > this week works. In addition to VENIX I have a lot of other disks and
> > parts.
>
> Cool! I've had much luck since we talked last. I'm 5 sectors away from
> having all the disks read. Well, and understanding the encoding used
> on the boot disk to store the serial number in a difficult to
> replicate manner. At least I think that's what's going on. See
> http://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2017/04/rainbow-100-venix86r-disks-found.html
> for a few details.
>
> Unfortunately, the 5 sectors are on User disks 2 and 3, so are early
> in the series, which may make all the other readable disks useless.
> Not sure if there was compression at the time, so maybe it will just
> corrupt a few files. This is out of 16 400k disks, so it's a quite
> high percentage for them being so old.
>
> Btw, anybody know what might be on an "Enhanced BWS Supplementary
> disk"? A quick google search didn't bring up anything, but it's a
> Version 7 Unix. I'm hoping it's the compiler, in which case I may be
> able to reconstruct the missing material from the V7 sources.
>
> Warner
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 10:23:35 -0700
> From: Kirk Davis <kirkbdavis at me.com>
> To: Evan Koblentz <cctalk at snarc.net>, "General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news
> Message-ID: <742CD596-84DD-4A47-95B0-46B8E0A04285 at me.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/robert-
> taylor-innovator-who-shaped-modern-computing-dies-at-85.html?_r=0 <
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/14/technology/robert-
> taylor-innovator-who-shaped-modern-computing-dies-at-85.html?_r=0>
>
> > On Apr 14, 2017, at 10:00 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Two computer industry pioneers died in the past week.
> >
> > Harry Huskey worked on ENIAC, the Pilot ACE, SWAC, and the Bendix G-15.
> He was also known for helping overseas universities start their CS
> programs. Harry was 101.
> >
> > Bob Taylor was an ARPAnet pioneer and Xerox PARC executive. He was 85.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > Evan Koblentz, director
> > Vintage Computer Federation
> > a 501(c)3 educational non-profit
> >
> > evan at vcfed.org
> > (646) 546-9999
> >
> > www.vcfed.org
> > facebook.com/vcfederation
> > twitter.com/vcfederation
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 11:29:15 -0700
> From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Harry Huskey, Bob Taylor -- sad news
> Message-ID: <d6df75ae-1d99-6f70-d096-4098c227e249 at bitsavers.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> some, but not enough
>
> Harry did an oral history at CHM when he became a fellow, as did Bob
>
> On 4/15/17 8:34 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
>
> > Wow, that's amazing. I had no idea he was still around! I hope he
> wrote up some memoirs or left stories.
> >
> > Jon
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 13:28:24 -0500
> From: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
> To: General at ezwind.net, Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Nat Semi 32016 Genix backup floppies available
> Message-ID: <58F26648.6010701 at pico-systems.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> As I may have mentioned a while back, I have dug out my
> backup floppy disks from my National Semiconductor Genix
> system. In 1984 or so, I built a clone of a Logical
> Microcomputer 32016 system and copied the OS. I used it for
> a while, but it was maddeningly slow. This system used a
> Multibus backplane and a Konan Taisho disk controller, that
> could handle MFM floppies and hard drives. This backup is
> from my copy of the system, and so has a few tidbits of
> mildly interesting stuff. One thing is I was helping Steve
> Ciarcia of Circuit Cellar magazine answer his mail, and as
> this was my only system with 5" floppies, I used it for
> that. So, this backup probably has some rather amusing
> replies to the totally INSANE questions he got. One of my
> favorites was "Steve, can you jot down on the back of an
> envelope the schematic for an IBM PC so I can hand wire
> it?" I also wrote a VERY BAD driver for a Versatec printer.
> It worked, but was insanely inefficient in graphics mode,
> and took a half hour per page to print. Worked fine in text
> mode, though.
>
> I don't remember what compilers we had on this, obviously C,
> and maybe Pascal and FORTRAN.
>
> Since it worked fine to read and write PC compatible
> floppies, the floppy format should be easy to read. But, I
> think this "backup" is a block by block dump of the file
> system. Notes on the floppies show :
> cp dc(0,0) on the first,
> cp dc(0,800) on the second, etc.
>
> So, if anyone wants to try to recover the files off this,
> I'd be glad to donate the set. It appears to be 2 boxes of
> floppies, 28 in total. I have some more floppies that seem
> to be the last half of an earlier backup, with less info on
> how it was written.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jon
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:05:02 -0400
> From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Silent 700 thermal paper
> Message-ID:
> <CAAq7DHqPSgf12WY3HTxLnJheEMgX3pTbRcC4votEY0ztDO+76g at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> How long does it last?
>
> I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
> mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
> should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.
>
> Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
> and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
> it.
>
> -chuck
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 21:15:46 -0400
> From: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>
> To: Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>, "General Discussion:
> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers)
> Message-ID:
> <CAAq7DHr5PgYwgGmju6moDtHbbjAUkcGuEG-g3nUxxBJyjgEapw at mail.
> gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
> industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
> mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.
>
> -chuck
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > Using a t-2052 build up a test fixture, a pulse generator and a
> > oscilloscope and if have access to one a high bandwidth current probe.
> Use
> > the 2052s you have, record the curves etc and then make up some test
> > transformers.
> >
> > -Pete component engineer in a former life.
> >
> > On Apr 13, 2017 3:36 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk" <
> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have:
> >>>
> >>
> >> - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source)
> >>> - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them. I
> haven't
> >>> found much detail as of yet.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Good news on this front!
> >>
> >> I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar
> >> transformer.
> >>
> >> I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was
> >> able to get measurements off of them:
> >>
> >> T2037:
> >> A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary
> >> B: 220/170, 41.6/100
> >> C: 232/170, 43.8/60
> >> D: 231/170, 43/80
> >>
> >> These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an
> >> FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the
> >> 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there.
> >>
> >> Here are the T2052 measurements:
> >> A: 597/320, 597/320
> >> B: 530/270, 530/270
> >> C: 34/1040, 24/680
> >> D: 551/280, 551/280
> >>
> >> Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are
> >> consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer. I'm not sure what they are
> >> wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance.
> >> (#34 is closer. It's also possible that they changed cores, but I
> suspect
> >> that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.)
> >>
> >> It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could
> be
> >> substituted. The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore
> the
> >> center tap pins.
> >>
> >> Vince
> >>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 22:23:18 -0300
> From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>
> To: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Silent 700 thermal paper
> Message-ID: <613b3623-31a1-a56d-65cf-d70ddb263fdb at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how
> well the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored. Direct
> sunlight definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in
> black bags. If the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for
> thermal fax machines, that paper should be readily available at office
> supply stores.
>
> Paul.
>
>
> On 2017-04-15 10:05 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > How long does it last?
> >
> > I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
> > mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
> > should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.
> >
> > Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
> > and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
> > it.
> >
> > -chuck
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 18:29:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Silent 700 thermal paper
> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1704151827050.5067 at shell.lmi.net>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Sat, 15 Apr 2017, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>
> > It would not hurt it to try, at worst the printout would be faint, how
> well
> > the paper survives depends a lot on how it was stored. Direct sunlight
> > definitely will degrade the paper that is why it is often in black bags.
> If
> > the paper is 8.5" wide you could use the roll paper for thermal fax
> machines,
> > that paper should be readily available at office supply stores.
>
> Sheets of thermal paper can also be used (Gavilan printer used those, as
> did some of the fax machines)
>
> Expect the outer wraps of the roll to be the first to go bad, so you'll
> probably have to discard the outer fraction of each roll.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 20:52:30 -0700
> From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Silent 700 thermal paper
> Message-ID: <f6ed453e-a305-5938-f3ad-9c75219d6338 at sydex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> My experience with thermal fax paper is that printed copy is best
> preserved. I discovered a couple of years ago, that manufacturers'
> faxed copies of data from the early 1990s have faded almost to
> unreadability.
>
> Not black, but faded, as with disappearing ink
>
> Storage was in a file folder in a file cabinet in temperature and
> humidity-controlled environment not exposed to light for very long at all
>
> I've had blue-line copies similarly fade after about 40 years.
>
> Thermofax, anyone?
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2017 23:04:58 -0500
> From: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
> To: Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com>, General at ezwind.net,
> Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers)
> Message-ID: <58F2ED6A.6050001 at pico-systems.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> On 04/15/2017 08:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
> > industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
> > mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.
> >
> >
> Some of the big names are Pulse Engineering and Rhombus
> Industries. I think DEC used Pulse Engineering in a lot of
> PDP-11 and VAX vintage stuff, so maybe they used them back
> in the PDP-8 days, too.
>
> Jon
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2017 00:06:28 -0700
> From: "Vincent Slyngstad" <v.slyngstad at frontier.com>
> To: "Charles Dickman" <chd at chdickman.com>, "Pete Lancashire"
> <pete at petelancashire.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and
> Off-Topic
> Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards
> (or dec T-2052 transformers)
> Message-ID: <767045AC85F44FD2885541FEF248C034 at Vincew7>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8";
> reply-type=original
>
> From: Charles Dickman via cctalk: Saturday, April 15, 2017 6:15 PM
> > Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
> > industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
> > mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.
>
> The DEC part number for these parts is 16-05794. Variant -05 is the
> T2037, and variant -02 is the T2052.
>
> I don't remember any more how I did it, but at some point, I tracked
> these down to bhelectronics.com. The information they were able to
> provide for the T2037 shows the logo of Buckbee Mears Co. of
> St. Paul, Minn. and the stamp of the "Pulse Transformer Div".
> Presumably BH Electronics acquired Buckbee Mears at some point.
> They also indicate that they were manufactured to DEC's spec's.
>
> I wouldn't expect them to have much more information -- they
> indicated they'd sent me what they had, and that was paper
> records back in 2004. It would be great to turn up some old
> data sheets, though. The "code ident no." on the manufacturing
> docs is 08450, and the number 500-0587 is also repeated on
> every page.
>
> Vince
>
>
> End of cctech Digest, Vol 34, Issue 15
> **************************************
>
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