HP9816 PAL16L8

Tue Jun 11 15:13:20 CDT 2019

Many thanks to all those who are helping me!Inviato da smartphone Samsung Galaxy.
-------- Messaggio originale --------Da: cctech-request at classiccmp.org Data: 11/06/19  19:00  (GMT+01:00) A: cctech at classiccmp.org Oggetto: cctech Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11 Send cctech mailing list submissions to	cctech at classiccmp.orgTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit	http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctechor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to	cctech-request at classiccmp.orgYou can reach the person managing the list at	cctech-owner at classiccmp.orgWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of cctech digest..."Today's Topics:   1. Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL      graphics) running in MAME (Pontus Pihlgren)   2. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)   3. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)   4. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett)   5. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Peter Corlett)   6. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)   7. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)   8. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org) (dwight)   9. Old soaftware and documentation (Electronics Plus)  10. June 22 (Electronics Plus)  11. Re: Old soaftware and documentation (Grant Taylor)  12. Re: Old soaftware and documentation (Noel Chiappa)  13. RE: Old soaftware and documentation (Electronics Plus)  14. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Tomasz Rola)  15. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)  16. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Tony Duell)  17. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Chuck Guzis)  18. RE: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Birkel)  19. What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Liam Proven)  20. Re: Modems and external dialers. (Liam Proven)  21. RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick? (Paul Birkel)  22. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)  23. Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (Paul Berger)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:56:30 +0200From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE>To: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and	Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: SGI IRIX 6.5 Screen Savers (emulated Indy w/ 24-bit XL	graphics) running in MAMEMessage-ID: <20190610095630.2a3dnxf6dvc75xsb at Update.UU.SE>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiThat is impressive! Is it close to real time we are seeing?/POn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 10:38:35AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:> pretty cool..> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6E0_qgfGGQ> ------------------------------Message: 2Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:57:34 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCF_GC6fxT4A0GHaMNBhWfK3J48=j1Lueoqko+T9tc6QFQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:45, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:>> The economist wrote about this (> https://www.economist.com/briefing/2019/06/08/how-the-pursuit-of-leisure-drives-internet-use> )>> The current situation is this:> it is much more important for Apple and Samsung to sell overpriced> things to consumers which then basically only will be used to play> games, look on sport games and youtube films.Fair point.And in the tropics, it is more important than ever that a device issealed, waterproof, has no moving parts, etc. -- to keep it tough.Cheap & replaceable are more important than convenient and repairable.> What you used the Psion for will only sell about 4 percent of apples> volumes last year....> The screen of the machine i write this on, stands on a sun sparcstation> 10.> If i had that machine running well i would be as productive writing> reports on that one as on the asus tower which i now uses.I know what you mean, and I agree.I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers andtried to make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap massmarket...https://planetcom.squarespace.com/-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 3Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:58:53 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCH2LPMGq62_GHJOS0G-TFCZzc9JGYL_Wpv4XartfN9xGw at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Sun, 9 Jun 2019 at 13:49, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:>> I also hate my samsung a5 mobile - the stupid thing> doesnt have something which the two ericsson mobiles i used before (and> a nokia and i believe a samsung to) had.>> Namely a small led which was on all the time. A great thing when> you need to look for the damn things while it is dark.>> For example in the car or in bed or out in the nature inside a tent.>> Stupid little things...>> that little led usually changed colour when the battery became low.Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,off, asleep or what.The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 4Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:44:50 +0200From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610134450.qd7dmsed67fyyfsc at mooli.org.uk>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:57:34PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:[...]> I just wish a few more companies thought like Planet Computers and tried to> make devices for rich niches, rather than the cheap mass market...> https://planetcom.squarespace.com/So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on acheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers towork well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff toododgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, ifanything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatekchipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They haveapparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet theycontinue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one awide berth too.Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pipeople who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well onmobile chipsets.------------------------------Message: 5Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:51:11 +0200From: Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610135111.abvyum4mdwmn345k at mooli.org.uk>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1On Mon, Jun 10, 2019 at 01:58:53PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:[...]> Agreed again. My old Mac mini had a power LED. It pulsed softly when asleep.> The iMac that has replaced it has nothing. I can't tell if it is on,> off, asleep or what.> The cost saving of this change must be too small to measure. :-)Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.They're not even charging "only" ?54.99 for a Thunderbolt-to-power-LED dongle,so this particular essential component wasn't removed for the usual reason.------------------------------Message: 6Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:44:44 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCGMzCwPjO9mwdkH4HRaypZpk6HdpbqO=TfmSBMk8Yte5g at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:45, Peter Corlett via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> So long as said companies don't just make yet another Android device based on a> cheap-and-nasty Mediatek SOC which requires proprietary Android-only drivers to> work well, and then make misleading claims about Linux support.Don't all phone chipsets require Android drivers?And on that point, so does the RasPi.> The Gemini's keyboard was very much a take-my-money-now feature when I saw it,> but since it was being crowdfunded on Indiegogo, the platform for stuff too> dodgy for Kickstarter, I decided to exercise caution and wait to see what, if> anything, would be delivered. When they finally admitted it had a Mediatek> chipset, I lost all interest. Been there, done that, never again.You pays your money, etc. I'm quite happy with mine. I don't use it asa phone but for taking notes at conferences and events, for instance,it's _superb_.> Planet are right now crowdfunding their new "Cosmo Communicator". They have> apparently learned nothing as it also has a Mediatek chipset, and yet they> continue to disingenuously claim Linux support. I shall be giving this one a> wide berth too.On their sales volumes, I think they have to go with whatever is cheapand customisable on the Chinese market.One of the sad things about the ARM market is that there is noindustry standard, no baseline to aim for. There isn't even standardfirmware. Lots of devices don't have firmware at all, so every Linuxport is a bare-metal thing, starting with hardware initialisation. Ayear or 2 after it goes off the market, it's junk, as nothing willsupport it any more.ARM64 is trying to impose a requirement for UEFI, I believe, but [a]the legions of cheap kit makers don't care and just ignore it, and [b]UEFI is horrible.> Third time lucky, eh? Maybe they should start talking to the Raspberry Pi> people who actually know a thing or two about getting Linux working well on> mobile chipsets.Via big binary BLOBs, yeah, and a weird bootloader that means that theGPU initialises the system and (I hear) retains some degree of controlover interrupts, making it more or less impossible to run a properhypervisor on the things.-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 7Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:49:04 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCEPXvKPj6cBejUHsXGcjg0EMf5cFpDLz0OR7HsPMRy8VA at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 15:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> Adding pockets ruins the look, or something.Yup.They're going beyond the realm of their own previous products intosuch severe minimalism it's becoming inconvenient.I want an LED to tell me my charge/power status, message status, etc.,thank you. I want a physical home button. I want a physical headphonesocket. If you want me to buy a ?1000 tablet, then I want multipleports, USB and Lightning or whatever. I want to connect a keyboard andheadphones and charge it all at once, thanks.Since I can't have that, I bought a cheapo Chinese tablet instead, forless than the cost of a second-hand iPad of similar spec. It does thejob.It is very pleasant that I have come to a point in my life where I canafford nice toys like a (second-hand) Retina iMac and what was still ahigh-end iPhone when I got it (also 2nd hand).However, so many features are disappearing from the newer models thatI am not sure they're going to keep me for long...-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 8Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:46:38 +0000From: dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com>To: Piero Andreini <pieroandreini at vodafone.it>, "General Discussion:	On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)Message-ID:	<BYAPR01MB560809829422DA4BE9D9348CA3130 at BYAPR01MB5608.prod.exchangelabs.com>	Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"Again, is it just an address decoder or something more complicated. One can often determine the logic by looking at a schematic and knowing what it needs to do.Dwight________________________________From: cctech <cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org> on behalf of Piero Andreini via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org>Sent: Monday, June 10, 2019 7:58 AMTo: cctech at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8 (alan at alanlee.org)> L series are combinatorial only.  You (or someone who has a working one)> should be able to figure out a logic map by either running through all> the input permutation or putting it in a reader that will do the same> (vs reading the fuse data).>> -Alan>> Good luck.unfortunately I don't have a working PAL, that's why I'm looking for the jedec file------------------------------Message: 9Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:04:23 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <04ac01d51fbf$516bc6d0$f4435470$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want toship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?I would like it gone before this Saturday. Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613 Water StreetKerrville, TX 78028830-370-3239 cellsales at elecplus.com ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 10Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 14:05:56 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: June 22Message-ID: <04b101d51fbf$88a30fa0$99e92ee0$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"My warehouse will be open on Sat, Jun 22, from 10-3 for anyone that wants tocome scrounge. I am 1 hour from San Antonio, or 2.5 hours from Austin, or4-5 hours from Houston or Dallas (in decent traffic and weather). Cindy CroxtonElectronics Plus1613 Water StreetKerrville, TX 78028830-370-3239 cellsales at elecplus.com ---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 11Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 13:07:40 -0600From: Grant Taylor <cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID:	<6bb191f9-baff-3bb6-6811-1b38f62912ee at spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 6/10/19 1:04 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote:> I have a large qty to donate to a vintage computer group. I do not want to> ship. Someone in Austin or San Antonio area want to come and get it?> > I would like it gone before this Saturday.How large is large?  Are we talking fills a desk top?  A Gaylord?  More?Please take pictures of it.  Hopefully the titles / versions can be identified.I'll socialize it with people in my community.-- Grant. . . .unix || die------------------------------Message: 12Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 16:15:30 -0400 (EDT)From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgCc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.eduSubject: Re: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <20190610201530.481DF18C08E at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>    > From: Cindy Croxton    > I have a large qty to donateRoughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?	Noel------------------------------Message: 13Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:33:55 -0500From: "Electronics Plus" <sales at elecplus.com>To: "'Noel Chiappa'" <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, "'General Discussion:	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: Old soaftware and documentationMessage-ID: <052f01d51fcb$d3a13fc0$7ae3bf40$@com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"    > From: Cindy Croxton    > I have a large qty to donateRoughly what does it go to - old PC's; Windows boxes; etc?	NoelDOS/early Windows/Tandy for the most partA small amount of SCO and other odd Unix type stuff.Cindy---This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.https://www.avast.com/antivirus------------------------------Message: 14Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 22:57:39 +0200From: Tomasz Rola <rtomek at ceti.pl>To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID: <20190610205739.GB20570 at tau1.ceti.pl>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Thu, Jun 06, 2019 at 01:43:40PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:> On Wed, 5 Jun 2019 at 20:06, Fred Cisin via cctalk> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:> >> > I don't think that my Fossil (Palm-OS WATCH) does IRDA.> > I should find somebody who will pay me money for such a piece of> > crap^H^H^H^H NEAT technology.> [...]> > Now? No keyboards at all.> > No, I am not happy about that, either.> > I could read the screens of my Psion and Nokia in bright sunshine.> American-design ones are slowly edging back towards that, but it's> still difficult. Daylight-readable screens have disappeared from the> market.> > I'm not happy about that, either.> > My Psions and Nokias had bulletproof OSes that lasted for years> without a single update, and yes, they were Internet-connected by the> last few generations. They ran in a few tens of megabytes of> nonvolatile storage.> > Now, my tablet and iPhone and Android phones need *at least* 3 or 4> apps updating every day. If I don't use one for a few weeks, it's just> like Windows -- I have to do half an hour of updates before I can use> it. The OS needs to be replaced every month or two to fix all the> flaws in it, and that's a gigabyte or so of storage.> > I am *furious* about this.I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description(yours was very interesting, BTW).  If I had a privilege to ownPsion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing outof the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed FamiliarLinux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can bebought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on oneocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. Ithink about this keyboard to this very day.About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were alsoused in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflectiveLCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamentlyturned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer ofleds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the displaytowards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in theback, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shinesback through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but Ihope I have got it right.Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 coulddisplay 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). LateriPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this timemuch less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots ofhtml and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to befound in many phones.For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next bestthing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears likethe very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - firstit meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,indoors".> "The JesusPhone, I swear it is smiling at me: Come to me. come to me> and be saved. The luscious curves, the polished glissade of the icons> in the multi-touch interface - whoever designed that thing is an> intuitive illusionist, I realise fuzzily as my fingertip closes in on> the screen: That's at least a class five glamour."> (Charles Stross, /The Fuller Memorandum/)> > They're very shiny. They do a lot.> > But I had a better *phone* and a better *PDA* 20 years ago. The whole> is much less than the sum of its parts.Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into"elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because theyhad nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and themachines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machinesreflect this.I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yetthis was not enough for them. Plenty of people would considerthemselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by thismany. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,unless I had not taken something into account.Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those whounderstand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of nicherecording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and startrecording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to"reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in myarse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition tomanager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and someof his shares. But maybe I am romantic.-- Regards,Tomasz Rola--** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      ****                                                                 **** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **------------------------------Message: 15Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:23:15 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: Piero Andreini via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <a54b36ab-676e-a0cc-377f-904f81a50cd2 at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:> desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991I pulled the CPU board out of my HP9816 and was happy to see that the component in question is in a socket however there is a problem.? The component in mine is a HAL16L8 note the "H" I found a datasheet and apparently in the early days of PALs at MMI you could do your development using PALs and then send the equations to MMI and they would produce a mask programmed semi custom chip with the same logic.? The problem with this is it does not have a program ROM like a traditional PAL so you cannot extract a valid JEDEC from it, I confirmed this by dumping it as a PAL16L8 and then decompiling the JED file to extract the equations and they are junk, even just browsing the RAW JED looked suspect.We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback to create registers as one person suggested could be done.Paul.------------------------------Message: 16Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 04:44:31 +0100From: Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com>To: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>,  "General Discussion: On-Topic	and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID:	<CAHkUCCywk3KmOa9_4aRz5R_YmQyV2t+Tnn8Rp8mohF9HSQgrdQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:23 AM Paul Berger via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>>> On 2019-06-08 7:14 a.m., Piero Andreini via cctalk wrote:> > desperately looking for jedec file of PAL 16L8 position U69 part # 1820-2991> We can hope that it is all combinational logic and I can run trough all> combinations of inputs and capture the output and we can develop> equations that way as long as they did not do anything like use feedback> to create registers as one person suggested could be done.You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :For each combination of inputs :   Read the outputs     Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)     Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they havechanged then there's a sequential function on that input     Check the next input  Check the next combination of inputsIt is my guess that the logic in this PAL is much the same as the DMA logic,etc (but cut down to only support DMA channel 0) of the HP98624 HPIB card.This board uses only TTL, no PAL, so you might be able to work out suitableequations from that.-tony------------------------------Message: 17Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:19:09 -0700From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>To: Tony Duell via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <e2942c34-f8e3-70cb-bee9-c10043dacee7 at sydex.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:> > You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :> > For each combination of inputs :>    Read the outputs>      Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>      Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>      Check the next input>   Check the next combination of inputsFor purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over atvcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago anddocumented the process.FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallelport of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensiveMCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount offlexibility to the process.Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run allcombinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristatefeature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the differencebetween a tristated pin and a genuine input.There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such asLogic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equationsthat can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.--Chuck------------------------------Message: 18Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 05:17:50 -0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com>To: "'Chuck Guzis'" <cclist at sydex.com>, "'General Discussion: On-Topic	and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <0e0401d52036$8b968d00$a2c3a700$@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>To: Tony Duell via cctalk>Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>> >> For each combination of inputs :>>    Read the outputs>>      Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>      Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>      Check the next input>>   Check the next combination of inputs>>For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at>vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>documented the process.http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1) A nice read.  When does the article/book get self-published :->?-----paul------------------------------Message: 19Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:05:45 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?Message-ID:	<CAMTenCHJV+Qk2hGy0GMuqohT16mZcw1Bz6eYics4vj6BnrnTiQ at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...?This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be441 ICs. Impressive!?https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 20Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:10:26 +0200From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: Re: Modems and external dialers.Message-ID:	<CAMTenCFC2QaR2+3c20CXnioY3-aMxVbJKNkPrxCKhs9vDFRfMA at mail.gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"On Mon, 10 Jun 2019 at 22:57, Tomasz Rola via cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:>> I share the sentiment and I guess I could give similar description> (yours was very interesting, BTW).Thank you!> If I had a privilege to own> Psion. But, when I went on for shopping, Psion was already bowing out> of the PDA market. So I bought Compaq iPAQ 3630, installed Familiar> Linux on it and hoped there would be a future when PDAs can be> bought. Hoho, I was so wrong. But while researching, I could on one> ocassion tap a bit on this excellent Psion 5mx keyboard in a shop. I> think about this keyboard to this very day.Nothing ever was better and fitted in your pocket. *Nothing*.> About displays: my ideal display was the one from iPAQ (they were also> used in other handheld PDAs of the time). It was called transflective> LCD. They are easily recognized, because the light can be permamently> turned off. "Normal" LCD has a backlight, i.e. a layer of> leds/incandescents which shine through from the back of the display> towards the user. Transflectives have special reflective layer in the> back, and a diode on a side. The external light reflects and shines> back through the crystal layer. Sorry for laymanish description, but I> hope I have got it right.>> Anyway, such display looked best in full sun. The one in 3630 could> display 4096 colors (with spectrum slightly bent towards pinky). Later> iPAQ models could do 65k colors (again slightly bent, but this time> much less visible). I used mine PDA as a proto ebook reader, lots of> html and pdb material read outdoors. The same kind of LCD was to be> found in many phones.Fascinating. I did not know transreflective LCDs were in PDAs. I onlyknew of them from the One Laptop Per Child project. There was anattempt to "productize" them as Pixel Qi but it died:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_Qi> For whatever reason, morons decided the shiny LCD should be next best> thing. And transflective got lost. Just like this. Nada. Appears like> the very meaning of "mobile" changed during last twenty years - first> it meant "outdoors" and now it means "from one couch to another,> indoors".A tragic loss for all of us. Triple-layer transmissive LCDs are aterrible bodge of a technology, and it is only because they are so badthat things like OLED look like good alternatives.But since it is all that anyone knows now, we think they are great.> Twenty years ago people using such tech were easily falling into> "elite users" of some kind. Either because of earnings or because they> had nontrivial needs and were decided to satisfy them - and the> machines reflected this. Not so with todays users, and again, machines> reflect this.Yes, true.> I am rather baffled whenever I read Psion had milion users and yet> this was not enough for them. Plenty of people would consider> themselves lucky if their books, cars or games were bought by this> many. The attitude of Psion managers is totally disgusting for me,> unless I had not taken something into account.Agreed.This is something  Planet Computers understands and I hope that it continues to.> Perhaps niche technical products should be sold by those who> understand niche markets. I imagine that if I came to manager of niche> recording label and suggested he should get rid of musicians and start> recording some generic crap outsourced from other side of the world to> "reduce costs" I guess I would fly out the window with his boot in my> arse. In contrast, I imagine that coming with similar proposition to> manager of huge (so called) tech firm I would get a bl**job and some> of his shares. But maybe I am romantic.:-D Excellent comparison!-- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenEmail: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.comTwitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamprovenUK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053------------------------------Message: 21Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 07:33:23 -0400From: "Paul Birkel" <pbirkel at gmail.com>To: "'Liam Proven'" <lproven at gmail.com>, "'General Discussion:	On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>Subject: RE: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?Message-ID: <0e1901d52049$7b036860$710a3920$@gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="UTF-8">-----Original Message----->From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk>Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 7:06 AM>To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts>Subject: What Makes a PDP-11/35 or 40 Tick?>>Found on Hackernews but by our very own Seth Morabito...>>?>This is what makes a PDP-11/35 or PDP-11/40 tick. It turns out to be>441 ICs. Impressive!>?>>https://loomcom.com/blog/0044_what_makes_a_pdp_11_35_tick.html>>-- >Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamprovenI wonder what the unlisted 20 ICs are for, and what they are?List totals 221; claim is 441 ...-----paul------------------------------Message: 22Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:49:54 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <6f53e968-651d-234e-a495-422e2ce8acbb at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 6:17 a.m., Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:>> -----Original Message----->> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via cctalk>> Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2019 12:19 AM>> To: Tony Duell via cctalk>> Subject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8>>>> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>>>> For each combination of inputs :>>>     Read the outputs>>>       Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>>       Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>>       Check the next input>>>    Check the next combination of inputs>> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at>> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and>> documented the process.> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?330-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-13> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?329-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-12-The-Trantor-T130B-memory-PAL> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?328-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-11> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?327-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-10> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?326-Cloning-a-HAL-PAL-Part-9> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?325-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-Part-8> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?321-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-7)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?320-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-6)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?319-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-5)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?318-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-4)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?316-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-3)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?315-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-2)> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/entry.php?314-Cloning-a-PAL-HAL-(Part-1)>> A nice read.  When does the article/book get self-published :->?>> -----> paul>The process documented above is essentially the process I started last night, but in my case I used a GPIO in my HP 9000-332 to cycle through the inputs and record the output.? It is very handy to have general purpose parallel I/O for purposes like this.? In this case the number of possible states is reduced as two of the inputs are permanently tied high.? I am well on my well to developing logic equations to feed into palasm to generate a new JEDEC file which I can then burn into a GAL and test to see if it is correct.Paul.------------------------------Message: 23Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 09:54:48 -0300From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com>To: cctalk at classiccmp.orgSubject: Re: HP9816 PAL16L8Message-ID: <404e283e-1b9f-dff5-8d1a-d00fe6a886bb at gmail.com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowedOn 2019-06-11 1:19 a.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:> On 6/10/19 8:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:>>> You can detect sequential logic in the PAL by :>>>> For each combination of inputs :>>     Read the outputs>>       Toggle an input (change from 0 to 1 and back again or vice versa)>>       Compare the outputs to what they were before -- if they have>> changed then there's a sequential function on that input>>       Check the next input>>    Check the next combination of inputs> For purely combinatorial PLDs, see my blog entry on the subject over at> vcfed.org; I did the work to clone a few PALs some years ago and> documented the process.>> FWIW, the setup to do this was a few TTL ICs connected to the parallel> port of a PC.   Nowadays, I'd probably do the same with an inexpensive> MCU--the programmable nature of MCU pins lends a certain amount of> flexibility to the process.>> Basically, you separate the inputs from the outputs and then run all> combinations of the inputs, observing the outputs.   If the tristate> feature is used on outputs, there's a way to discover the difference> between a tristated pin and a genuine input.>> There are a number of tools to perform reduction on the results, such as> Logic Friday.   After that, you're left with a bunch of logic equations> that can be fed into a PAL/GAL assembler and programmed.>> --ChuckOld computer work too, I used a GPIO in a HP 9000-332.? Years ago I also created general purpose I/O ports for a PC using 6821 chips since they are way more flexible that the Intel? 8255, but the HP 9000 coupled with RMB makes for a great environment to bang out quick programs to do things like this.Paul.End of cctech Digest, Vol 57, Issue 11**************************************