Quadra 660AV what's with the "PowerPC" label?

[Liam Proven]

On 14 June 2016 at 18:31, Swift Griggs <swiftgriggs at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Jun 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
>> Might have got it like that & never noticed...?
>
> He claimed to be the original owner, and he was a teacher. He probably got
> it as part of some educational program, maybe it was used then. I dunno.
> Maybe it was at a school that had a lot of macs and they robbed a case
> cover from a dead one. It's weird, but I'm okay with weird.

:-)

>> That's very true. I've never used a live A/UX system and badly want a
>> play.
>
> I still haven't either. I've got it, and I'm dorking around trying to get
> my hardware straight (still waiting on AAUI 10BT dongles and a few other
> bits of kit). Fortunately, it's easy to get a hold on from places like Mac
> Garden, et al. They have ISOs for NextSTEP and OpenSTEP, too. I'd like to
> try those on my Quadra 700. I just ordered an extra SCSI2SD for that guy.
>
> PS: I like the word "kit" to describe "gear". I hope I'm using it right. I
> also prefer "grey" over "gray". I hope you British folks don't mind an
> American bootlegging those terms. Oh, and I'm drinking some Earl Grey. :-)

In Ireland, "gear" means hard drugs, so maybe it's safer!

>> Tempted to try Shoebill... [...] but emulators aren't the same.
>
> I like emulators for "helping" with real hardware. Ie.. making disks or
> disk images, transferring files, etc.. However, I'm with you, emulators
> aren't as fun. They are awesome tools, and they are *some* fun, just not
> as much as the real thing for me.

This is why I spent money on getting my ZX Spectrums restored. :-)

>> I guess so -- I don't know all the models that well. There are also
>> US-model Macs that always remained very scarce in Europe. The G3
>> All-in-One is an example -- I've never seen one in the flesh.
>
> Well, you guys had Acorn and I never got to play with those, much. Shame
> that there wasn't more import/export of such things, since more is better.
> :-)


Indeed!

>> It's a nice OS, I like and appreciate the NeXTstep heritage, but it's
>> not a _proper_ Mac.
>
> I can't really back up that position, but I totally agree. Not that I have
> anything "against" OSX. It at least doesn't have an identity-complex that
> Linux does. It's just it's own thing. They have SUS and UNIX 03 standards
> conformance, but they don't pretend like they are focused on being a UNIX
> variant. Apple just goes it's own way and everyone hopes for the best.
> It's GUI is just it's own unique creation with some very loose visual (and
> strong code-based) connections back to NeXTSTEP, and has a quality and
> value all it's own.

Agreed.

> Linux+systemd desperately wants to be Windows nowadays

I think that's an overstatement, almost an actionable one.

TBH I'm happy to see _more_ differentiation between, for example,
Linux and the other FOSS Unices. There wasn't that much to choose
between them before.

> but adherents still get offended when UNIX purists frown at their
> "unification" efforts (ala systemd and others) which de-emphasize KISS,
> small-is-beautiful, make everything a filter, etc...

Kinda. But only kinda. The original goals of simplicity, consistency
etc. were lost -- no, thrown away -- *decades* ago. Unix is almost the
definitions of big, complex, arcane, and scary these days.

>From what I've seen, systemd makes things like enabling/disabling
services _simpler_ for your average Joe.

>  Linux wants to cop
> that cool, without any binding respect towards the UNIX philosophy.

No, I disagree. It's moving on. It's abandoning some of the legacy
stuff, but there are loads of other OSes that are keeping it.

> Linux seems the most engaged in the "re-invent it poorly" activity that is
> so emblematic of why a lot of folks are leaving.

I am seeing a lot of flouncing off in a huff. I'm /not/ seeing drops
in adoption, use, any of that.

> Most technologists I know
> who were long time Linux users are now fleeing to BSD or elsewhere.

People are _saying_ it. Are they _doing_ it?

> I read
> someone say recently of OSX, BSD, and Linux: "Where does Linux belong? OSX
> makes a far superior workstation

... but is proprietary, closed-source, runs only on expensive (but
good) proprietary hardware...

> and BSD is better on servers.

*Ridiculously* contentious. I'm seeing and hearing of little _real_
adoption. Some posturing, yes, but Linux's breadth of driver support,
apps, functionality, automation, pretty much everything, means it's
the dominant server platform of the WWW.

And Android is still selling a *billion devices a year!*

http://www.androidheadlines.com/2016/04/q1-2016-smartphone-sales-samsung-crushed-apple.html

So it's pretty dominant on the client side, too.

BSD is _nowhere_ by comparison. A rounding error.


> Why do I
> need Linux again?" I very much agree with the spirit of those questions.

I am very happy if systemd /et al/ mean a boost in BSD adoption,
takeup, development, etc.

I'm not sure I'm seeing it though.

> That's one thing I liked about IRIX. It's still a true UNIX variant, not
> "based on UNIX". The GUI is old-looking and primitive by today's
> standards, but still I think they struck a nice balance or at least one
> that appeals to me, personally.

It's dead, though, isn't it?


> When it comes to GUI operating systems, I want them to drink the whole
> bottle of GUI kool-aid. Classic MacOS did that, IMHO. It was totally a
> desktop OS and didn't try to bifurcate to also make a good server. Hence,
> Apple turning to A/UX and AIX back in those days for servers.

Agreed. Although it's not alone. AIUI things like AROS and Haiku are
just as GUI-centric, it's just that they have shells _as well_.

>> But I spent real money -- very very rare for me
>
> Do you normally just find free stuff or grab folks cast-off items ?

Yep!

> The
> stuff I find cool is too rare and too many other geeks liked. I paid about
> $150 for the Quadra 700 recently. Most were selling well above that level,
> but mine didn't have a HDD included (no big deal with SCSI2SD, baby).
>
>> -- on upgrading an old 7600 or 7700 I got for free to run OS X 10.0, to
>> get to know the new OS. More RAM, G3 upgrade, EIDE controller, etc. Then
>> I got a free Blue'n'White and it was my main machine for a while.
>
> I see B&W Macs on Craigslist a lot and for cheap. I want a machine of that
> generation, too. However, I haven't decided which one, yet. The only PPC
> box that ever caught my eye was the G4 cube. I see a lot of those on Ebay,
> but I'm kind of waiting to catch one locally.

They were nice. I'm almost tempted but I think I'll stick with mainly
portables from now on.

>> Then I switched to Linux full-time and never looked back.
>
> I too used Linux from 1993 to about 1997. Then, the more I learned about
> BSD, the more I liked it. Hordes were flooding in to use Linux by then, so
> I bailed out.  I haven't really run Linux as a workstation since then. I'm
> a current RHCE and I still interact with Linux a ton at my job, but there
> is little joy in it. I find myself pursing my lips and shaking my head a
> lot while fixing systemd problems or working on some dirty PoS of a JBOSS
> server. It was a nice well when it was first dug, but now it's fouled by
> too many people and too much toxic admixture.

I've been using Unix since 1989 or so. I would not call myself an
expert, but I'm competent at a basic level. I've installed quite a few
machines, including in production environments.

I have so far not learned enough to get a bare CLI FreeBSD install
online with a GUI. It seems to me to make things unnecessarily
obstructive.

>> Me too, although I'd not call my s/w collection massive.
>
> There is so much "free stuff" online these days for M68k Macs. You can get
> just about _anything_ you ever remembered or wanted and it's all
> considered "abandonware". For me, these "productivity" programs don't
> change much. A word processor from 1993 is just as good for my purposes as
> one from 2016. Photoshop still has layers and channels in 5.5, etc..

Oh, yes, true. Although keep a virus scanner running: those downloads
are often infected IME.

>> But the snag is that 68K means SCSI, and SCSI is a pain when it doesn't work.
>
> It sure can be. It's made worse by the stupid stupid fact that Apple's
> disk utilities don't recognize non-Apple devices without a patch. There
> are a lot of chicken & egg problems to solve until you can get that FTP
> client installed. Then it's smooth sailing. :-)

I used to keep a few disks around with SilverLining, a D3 driver and a
few other things.

Still a PITA though.

>> It also means AAUI, ADB, weird monitors, etc.
>
> AAUI == Pita. Yet another ugly dongle, too, ugh. I got a Farallon Nubus
> ethernet card for the Quadra because of this. Unless I'm dealing with
> fiber, I hate AUIs, MAUs, etc...

So glad they eventually wised up and adopted standard connectors.

> ADB == Not too big of a deal since KB & mice are still plentiful. However,
> it's disappointing that there aren't easily accessible converters for PS/2
> and USB.
>
> RGB == Another PITA, but at least VGA HD15 converters are cheap and work
> well.

My experience is different re availability of both. :-(

>> The G3 era meant more standard bits, but the beige machines are still a
>> classic Mac. They'll take a cheap PCI USB card, you can use vanilla USB
>> mice, with a graphics card a standard monitor, etc. -- but they're still
>> _Macs_. They boot to a happy (or sad) Mac, and they run Classic.
>
> Those sound a lot easier to cope with. If it wasn't for my love for the
> 68k, I'd have probably gone that direction, too.  Like I said before, I'll
> probably still get one just to use as a "bridge" for the older gear. Maybe
> I can get a cheap G4 laptop and avoid sucking up too much more space in my
> retrolab.

You do need quite a chain to span from SD/DD disks for a Mac+ or
something up to DVDs for late-era PowerPC machines. :-(

>> Nice boxes, but they don't feel all that Mac-like to me.
>
> Yep. I agree. Perhaps getting too used to the older interface and dynamics
> pre-biased me.
>
>> Yes, true. An OS I still miss, for all its instability and quirkiness.
>> I'd love to see a modern FOSS recreation, at least of the concept and
>> the style, even if it was binary-incompatible.
>
> That would be great. Did you hear about Apple making the marketing change
> from "OSX" to "MacOS" ? That makes me sad. Some completely irrational part
> of my brain still dreamed that Apple would license the classic MacOS to a
> hobbyist shop to continue with new releases etc..

The new monicker is macOS [sic]. Fits with iOS, watchOS, tvOS, etc.

So, macOS Sierra.

Sounds daft to me. :-/


>> I wish the Star Trek project had come to some kind of fruition.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project
>
> That would have made things a lot more interesting in the 1990s. Windows
> seems pretty unassailable, but the public can be fickle. I've always
> wondered why companies don't make operating systems for free, then sell
> licensing rights, partner deals, driver development, etc... Either you
> can't make enough $$$ that way, or the draw of charging for the OS is just
> too lucrative. I'm not sure which it is.

It's changing.

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
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